pollen substitute

[filmmlif]

i opened my weakest hive today (it was nearly 70 degrees) and i found very little pollen. i have no pollen laying around so i guess i need a pollen substitute. any recommendations on where to buy it or how to make it?
thnx.

[Beth Kirkley]

Mann Lake has a pollen substitute they sell.

Beth

[Jerrymac]

How about Dadant? They have a place in Paris, TX.

[filmmlif]

cn i feed it this time of year?

[Jerrymac]

I'm just guessing here, but if the temp is up where you can place it in the hive then you can feed anytime.

[filmmlif]

thnx group for the info

[Finman]

hello,
       I was wondering if i could collect corn pollen to feed my bees for a spring buildup?            
                                                     latewood23@hotmail.com

I have not collected my own pollen, but I use Estonian pollen very much. This summer I have bought 40 kilos just for spring buildup. In Estonia earnings level is 1/7 compared to Finland. And my own pollen will stay in hives.

From internet I learned that I can use soya flour and yeast with pollen. If you put over 20% pollen to mixture, it is palatable for bees.

I make dough  with dough machine.

3   kg dry pollen
0,7    litre water to soften pollen ower night
3   kg yeast
2   kg soya flour
1   kg heated honey (liguid)
1   kg flour sugar
___________________
10,7   total

28% pollen   

If dough is too wet, add soya flour and balance the mixture with it.

Then I roll the paste between two dough paper to  5-8 mm plate and give it to the top bars of frame.  During one week 2 super colony can eat 0,5-1 kg that dough. New born bees eat it very eargerly.

Near 20% pollen all colonies are not willing to eat dough.

Dough will be in condition at least 3 weeks in cold. The flour sugar add the content of sugar and stops yeast fermentation.

All thet stuff will transform to bees  

[Robo]

http://robo.hydroville.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4

[Finman]

http://robo.hydroville.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4

Be sharp! In many reports it is said that you should  put minimum 20% natural pollen. Without it bees do not eat substitute.  In my experience 30% is very good, and all hives eat it. 20% was not palatable for 50% of hives.

2-box hive consumes 0,5 kg /week if it likes that food.

If you go to normal grocery, you get those necessary goods from there.

[Jerrymac]

OK here is one of my why questions.

Why add all that other stuff to the pollon. In nature bees do not do that. Seems to me if they needed it then they would find it in nature. So why would man want to change the natural diet of the honey bee and think it is good for the bee?

[Lesli]

We like to meddle. Sometimes, to the detriment of the animals and ourselves.

Mad Cow disease is a good example. Who thought feeding ground up cow and sheep parts back to cows, natural herbivores, was a good idea?

[Finman]

OK here is one of my why questions.

Why add all that other stuff to the pollon. In nature bees do not do that. Seems to me if they needed it then they would find it in nature. So why would man want to change the natural diet of the honey bee and think it is good for the bee?

Natural pollen is 10 euros/kg. Yeast and soya flour is only 3 euros/kg.

I start to feed my bees 4 weeks before nature gives pollen, and I feed them 2 weeks after willows start.

My strategy is to get new bees just in the point when willow starts blooming. In May we have so bad weathers that I continue feeding .

My goal is  to get dandellion honey at the beginning of June.  

Now I have added electrical warming in my hives at spring. They develope 3 times faster than natural way.

Without feeding hives are ready to catch honey 1 month later, and  half of honey season is gone. Or honey summer is 2 months long.

[Jerrymac]

Lesli brought up the mad cow disease. How long did it take for this to show up after people started feeding them this other stuff.

So let's feed the bees yeast and soy and busted up bee parts. Or just what ever suits us to throw into their supper dish. Perhaps all will be fine for the next half century, then somewhere down the line those future bee keepers or having some problem, unknown to us today, but is because of stuff we do today.

[Robo]

Lesli brought up the mad cow disease. How long did it take for this to show up after people started feeding them this other stuff.

So let's feed the bees yeast and soy and busted up bee parts. Or just what ever suits us to throw into their supper dish. Perhaps all will be fine for the next half century, then somewhere down the line those future bee keepers or having some problem, unknown to us today, but is because of stuff we do today.

Sounds like you should be keeping your bees in gums then.

[Finman]

Lesli brought up the mad cow disease. How long did it take for this to show up after people started feeding them this other stuff.

So let's feed the bees yeast and soy and busted up bee parts. .

Heh heh and heh. I got those advises from USA http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/nutrition_supplements.htm

It is from year 1977

My wife is afraid of the mad cow disease, but I am telling to my boy that don't worry,  men are pigs!

I can see that I have wrong company.  You drink beer but you are afraid of giving yeast to bees  

[golfpsycho]

dateline 2041
The Beltsville Bee research facility announced today that it had finally discovered the cause for the honeybee transformation.

Scientist Ima Meel explained.  We are now prepared to confirm that apis melifera, the common honeybee, is a maneater.  The metamorphosis of honeybees from peacefull nectar gathering insects, to the carnivoirous horde we see today, was precluded by the feeding of yeast and soy products.  Careless beekeepers in a thoughtless attempt to build up their colonies for the early nectar flow, and to make even MORE money, are entirely to blame.  Earlier reports that bees had carried off cattle were found to be erroneous, however, women, children and the elderly are at risk.

The researches have begun work on a super mite to help control the predators expansion into other parts of the country.

bahahaha... sorry... sometimes I just can't help my self.

[Lesli]

Sounds like you should be keeping your bees in gums then.

It's not that progress itself is bad--and a moveable frame hive is easier on beekeeper and bee.

 The point is that we do things like give the bees antibiotics twice a year, knowing that antibiotics used that way produce resistant bacteria.  We know that chemicals in the hive will eventually produce resistant mites (and maybe contaminate wax and honey, and shorten the life of the queen).

So it seems to me we should really think about what we're doing, and what we're putting in our hives.  Will soy and yeast harm the bees long term or short term?  Probably not...

Most of us aren't chemists or biologists or entymologists. We rely to some degree on these experts to help us out. But I don't think that we should take everything they say as gospel.

[Finman]

The researches have begun work with superman and I promised to be Super Man Proto.

Take care Super Bees, here I came

Note double twings!

[Jerrymac]

Can tylonol taken for aches and pains lead to the need for a kidney transplant? Has anyone ever heard of it? I never thought about it until about a week ago. My wife knows someone whos daughter had a kidney transplant because her kidneys failed because of taking tylonol (Yes TOO much I'm sure)

I'm sure most of the stuff done to/for bees is just fine and dandy to do it as/when needed. But what are the long term affects of any little thing we do if we do it too much and when not needed. Perhaps one day in the future you will hear a knock on the door and open it to find a colony of bees spelling out "MORE SOY" in the driveway.

I can't stand beer.

[Lesli]

find a colony of bees spelling out "MORE SOY" in the driveway

Mwahahahaha!

I swear, I'm not trying to be alarmist here. I'm just conservative and a bit skeptical. (or cynical, if you like). Corporations making mite treatments are not going to support breeding programs or FGMO or oxalic acid tests or small cell or anything else except more chemicals. And the chems will come to the shelf as quickly as possible, not after years of testing to see what ends up in wax or honey after a few seasons.

Let's say that tomorrow, MegaChem, Inc. came up with the perfect mite treatement--except that you have to use it twice a year. But you'll never lose hives due to mites again, because it will keep knocking down the numbers. And there's no residue in wax and it doesn't shorten the life of the queen.

Is that ideal?

Or is the ideal bees that can manage the mites on their own without the time and expense of MegaChem's treatment?

[Finman]

Mwahahahaha!

I swear, ...
Let's say that tomorrow,

Yes. We have orders for organic honey.

http://www.smallholder.co.uk/the_west_country/smallholder/news/SMALLHOLDER_NEWS_EVENTS11.html


If so, you cannot use plastic hives.

You cannot use inseminated queens. Why?

Also we had a point that bees cannot be in area where they use artificial fertilization. But it was taken away because poit was impossilbe to follow.

People pays more double for their "natural honey".  There is a market gap.

[Lesli]

I'm assuming I can't do truly organic honey, since I live in dairy country, where corn is grown for feed.

[golfpsycho]

Just trying to have some fun with it.  Those capable of laughing, go ahead.  Those that can't find anything to laugh about,  well.. .not all strokes are debilitating

Nobody wants to put chems in their hives, or in their body for that matter.  Sometimes, there just isn't a choice.  Ask a diabetic.  Does he/she realize the kidney and liver damage the treatment does?  Of course they do.  But what are the options, blind/amputee/fading fast.. or take a couple other pills to mitigate the damage.

[Finman]

Just trying to have some fun with it.  ...
Nobody wants to put chems in their hives, or in their body for that matter.  .

When I started 40 years ago, many old men told that before world war they had bee hives, but very often american fould brood killed all hives. There was no antibiots in that time.

Atre war we put sulfa in hives at autumn. Now it is stricly borbidden.

30 years ago we started to buy "terramycin for poultry formula" from USA.  Many says that is borbidden nor, but that is not true. According the law there is not allowed to be any remainders from that medicine in Europe.

As you see, people find their own rules but bees are tens of millions older than human.

[Jerrymac]

There he goes again.... :lol:

Finman wrote; "As you see, people find their own rules but bees are tens of millions older than human."

Of those tens of millions of years, how many has man interfeared? And how many years has man artificially controled the size, feeding, and function of the bees? And how many of those man manipulated years has disease been a real problem unless once again man steps in and artificially fixes it.

Finman, No one is telling you to stop what you are doing and risk your livelyhood for some regressive messures. And to me, regression sounds like a slow process if one has a huge apiary and to maintain some income would have to go really slow.

But on the other hand don't tell us beginners NOT to try putting the bees back to what they had for millions of years and were able to handle it without man.

One can't climb a huge clift without getting a small foot hold.

[Finman]

Finman, No one is telling you to stop what you are doing and risk your livelyhood for some regressive messures. .

If you are going to manage with your measures, I am going to catch a lot of honey. And it is nothing to do with comb size.

I have my style, and it is going better and better.

.

don't tell us beginners NOT to try putting the bees back to what they had for millions of years .

To me, beekeeping is not poetry.  You can do what ever you like, but how you measure your own success, are you able to distinguis, what is essential and what is only poetry.

To me. I measure my success, my understanging with volume of honey.

[Lesli]

Finman, as an experienced beekeeper, what do you think explains the Lusby's success on small cell, open mated bees, and no sugar or pollen substitute? As I said in another post, they have managed about 10 years now, no mediations at all, and while there are mites in their apiaries, their bees seem to keep the numbers to a level that the bees can live with.

If Dee is wrong, and it isn't small cell and breeding, then what is it?

[Finman]

Finman, as an experienced beekeeper, what do you think explains the Lusby's success

I do not know who he is, and where he is. I know that there is mite resistant bees over the world. Probably he has such ones.

on small cell, There is no harm about small cells, but if you claim that you get rid off mite with mere cell, the issue is missunderstood

open mated bees,  I also have open mated bees, and 90% of beekeepers has. But after insemination quality of queens jumped a big step forward.
 
and no sugar  Also in Germany they not use sugar for winter because the price of low guality honey and sugar is so near.  Nothing wrong with sugar. You are feeding it all the summer long in your pics. In our counry honey is 7€/kg and sugar 1€/kg. If I leave honey to hive, it is 50% of my years yield.

pollen substitute?  I use pollen substitute because our summer is 3 moth long.  I take pollen substitute into use  last year ago when I found a report from USA website . Soya and yeast is  only 30% that of pollen. Test report from year 1977!

3 USA laboratory tested pollen substitues and result was that soya flour and yeast is good.  Australians has tested pollen feeding also. They have plants in which pollen is not good enough for larvas. Alfa-alfa is such a plant where brood will be in bad condition after honey harvest.  

Very few use pollen substitute.  But with pollen feeding I can prolong my honey yield  50%.  I have got very good results. It is expencive for be. Not for pleasure.

For most of beekepers  it is enough just keeping bees is important.  I am not going to argue with those hobbyist. If they  want to work at survival level, they can do.  That level gives me nothing. It is not interesting me - I am a person which become bored if nothing new is happening.

For me this a hobby and I have 15 another hobby too.  It is very hard to find new and interesting for 40 years, believe me.  For me, this is not religion. I don't believe  in God either.

And organic beekeeping or organic gardening, that is not my area. My education is missed if I beleive all kind of antiknowledge.

I am so called "result oriented"

I am sad about shaking  someone's faith. I do not want to discuss on that level.  SORRY.

You cannot win stupid person with arquing"

If Dee is wrong, and it isn't small cell and breeding, then what is it?

The mite resistancy is complicated system. It has been reseached 10-20 yeasr and they don't konow how it goes. And if experts do not know, it does make it possible that who ever invent a key THAT IT IS!

You can read that Canadian lost in many area half of bee 2 winter ago  Also you can read that in California they have lost 50% of bees.

Don't say that  someone has key to that prpoblem  :D  Whole Europe has tried to find key for 25 years.

I must keep a brake with these discussions. Not interesting to me.

[Jerrymac]

This link takes you to Ed and Dee Lusby's big long write up about what they have done with "Back to nature" beekeeping.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm

They are in Southern Arizona next door to california.

This was all written a few years ago and the up date is, as I had recieved an Email from them about a month ago, they have continually increased the number of hives they have.

[Finman]

When I see "biological beekeping", I take safety off.

[Finman]

When I see "biological beekeping", I take safety off.

30 years ago bees were much more healthy. They were grazy and you must be ready to run for you life. They broughy about 20 kg/hive.  They swarmed all the time.  

After insemination bees are calm, they swarm very little, they bring about 60 kg/hive.  3 x ancient good times. - But they are sensitive for deseases. I know that.

I have noticed during 30 years that it is not wise to take queen more than 1 generation from commergian queen.

But I promise, that when I am 20 years older, and my brains turn to childhood and I remember only over 50 years old happenings, then I will turn to "biological beekeeping".  Before that I try something else.

 8)

[Jerrymac]

In other words what you are saying is until Biological beekeeping is studied through some scientific research and is recomended by some government agency, you are not even going to look at it. And even though these people and others doing the same thing are having great success you will continue to believe it is a bunch of nonesense, until someone with a PHd in bee keeping researches it?

This could be something that really catches on and really works, and the whole world could start doing it and be successful at it, but you will not even read up on it until published in some scientific journal?

What you are doing works for you in your part of this world, but how can you debate/argue the issue of biologicak beekeeping if you haven't read what people have done with it and/or know some one that does it that way.

You brought up the fact that a lot of the ferel bees have been wiped out because of the Vorroa mites. Was this determined because at the same time beekeepers were losing their bees to the mite and so the wild bees had to fall to them also? Did anyone go out and find all the dead ferel bee hives and study them to see what they died of? Could it be that many of them died off because of many other things such as weather, Small hive beetles, fires, pesticides, people getting rid of them as unwanted pest, just to name a few. Colonies could lose their queen at the wrong time of the year and never recover. Of the many many ways the ferel bee could have been lost, we are going to blame it on vorroa mites because that is what was wiping out domestic bees. And yet now there are ferel bee hives out there and everyone assumes they must be mite resistant and trying to breed them so man can put them back into his way of doing things. But instead of looking into their genetic make up, what about looking into their hives and seeing if there must be something there that helps them to adapt to new dangers that come their way. I've read the articles on good bee grooming. But does anyone combine the bee grooming and the natural way bees behave? Or instead do they just want to breed in this bee grooming trait, take it out of the natural hive and place it into the artificial hive.

[Finman]

In other words what you are saying is until Biological beekeeping is studied through some scientific research ....

To me, all beekeping is biological. I do not understand why someone want to add that word to it. What makes me "unbiological" beekeeper?

I have degree in genetics in Helsinki University.  I find quite soon, if someone is talking blaa blaa.  

 

his could be something that really catches on and really works, and the whole world could start doing it and be successful at it, but you will not even read up on it until published in some scientific journal?  

If you think so, you keep me really stupid person  :D

 

What you are doing works for you in your part of this world, but how can you debate/argue the issue of biologicak beekeeping if you haven't read what people have done with it and/or know some one that does it that way.  

I ask: When you have resolution, why dont use it ?  Dont blame me.

 

You brought up the fact that a lot of the ferel bees have been wiped out because of the Vorroa mites. Was this determined because at the same time beekeepers were losing their bees to the mite and so the wild bees had to fall to them also? Did anyone go out and find all the dead ferel bee hives and study them to see what they died of? Could it be that many of them died off because of many other things such as weather, Small hive beetles, fires, pesticides, people getting rid of them as unwanted pest, just to name a few.  

No no no no , you are wrong totally. When varroa came to my area, feral bees vanished during 4 year and never came back.  Now feral bees are italian or Carniola.  We started to keep Carniolas 10 yeasr ago. They are not real feral bees . That feral "German Black" have vanished.

 

Colonies could lose their queen at the wrong time of the year and never recover.

  not at all. Perhaps 10% can happen so. So they vanish from earth, no.   I can see that you have very little experience from bee biology.

 

Of the many many ways the ferel bee could have been lost, we are going to blame it on vorroa mites because that is what was wiping out domestic bees.  

In Finlan we have not real feral bees. Our feral bees were in little beehives which lazy beekeepers kept in they yards and they took theree some kilos honey.  And if hive died, a new swarm came in.

When mite came to district, that feral cross blooded bee race vanished totally.  Never seen after that in wood lands. Before that (1988) everywhere in woodlands Isaw  those black bees in fire weeds.

In Finland many professional beekeepers try to seek self resistant feral hives, but they haven't found any.  


You are sayig things, what hundreds of people are makin efforts for. But if you can understand, I have no change to that kind of work and I am not to sacrifice my hives to "altar  of stoneage or future".

And also: I dont recommend for beginners that kind of tricks which are not ready for normal use.

If you want understand me wrong you can do it. It do not hurt me. I have strong ego.  I manage with my bees very well and my meaning in the world is nothing in this issue.

I am going to get a good honey yield next summer with normal bees and with normal combs.  Nothing mystery in my system.

The core in my system is to find good pastures and I gather only cream from flowers. This is challenge for me. It is not easy to find good pastures, you know. Even my super biological knowledges does not help me allways.  8)

Honey is in flowers and bees gather it. If flowers are over distance of 1 km yield will drop 50%.   Also hive must have 5-6 boxes, so it is able to handle honey flow. So easy.