Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Shep1478 on January 24, 2011, 06:47:25 pm
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I've had a feeling something wasn't right the last week or so. I haven't even seen the slightest movement in my reduced entrances whatsoever. I posted Yesterday that I'd like to take a peak to see how things were.. Some suggested to wait until it was a bit warmer, so I waited till today. I opened my 1st hive and there was no movement at all. I removed two frames and found nothing but dead bee's. Well, that put me in an awful mood to say the least. I removed the 2nd deep, which for the most part still had lots of capped honey; I'd say maybe 5 of the 10 frames were capped. Anyways, I got into the 1st deep and the same thing; just dead bee's. There didn't even appear to be a cluster attempted. Many of the bee's looked like they were working the cells and died right there in the middle of their work. The screened bottom board is covered up with dead bee's.
What to do now? I'm extremely discouraged as I take stock and ponder my options. I had considered ordering three 5-frame Nucs to start up more hives, but this really hits me to the point that maybe I shouldn't try.. I dunno..
What should I do with the frames that have the capped honey? What should I do with the other frames that were brood cells? I'm at a loss as what I need to do now.
Here's a bit of info:
These are my 1st years bee's. They were 3lb packages installed May 14th, 2010.
I've not had any problems with them.
I've not had to treat them for any disease or issues such as SHB, etc.
I didn't "winter them" by stocking up on stores etc. as we believed they had enough to get through the winter.
I didn't remove the screened bottom board as it was told to me the winters in North Ga shouldn't be to harsh (we have been in the teens's though).
Here's the link to a few shots I took earlier today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14718672@N05/sets/72157625899106940/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14718672@N05/sets/72157625899106940/)
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If i were you id find out why they died get someone in your area to help you if needed. Maybe they had tracheal mites you need a microscope to check for them. Im not as experienced as some on here so maybe they can give you some insite. Once you find out why they died i would freeze all the frames then come spring if there is no diseases get packages and install your drawn out comb into the hive and you will be up and running dont get discouraged lots of us have been losing hives due to the weather and all the pests that reduce hive strength.
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we all lose hives. you had an unusual winter. don't know where you got your bees, but they may not have been able to take this winter. if the bees were head into the cells and stuck there, they may have starved. this can happen even when they have stores. if there was to much space in the hive, and the food was to far away from where they clustered originally, they may not make it to the food.
if you haven't torn it all up, take some pics for us. pics of the dead bees, frames with dead bees on them, etc.
all your equipment is fine to reuse if there is no sign of disease. freeze the honey frames and use them for your new bees. evaluate your set up for moisture, size, temps in winter, etc.
it's a learning process. it is discouraging to lose hives, but it's part of beekeeping. i have lost two already and a 3rd looks pretty iffy. i just have enough that the loss won't bother me. :-D
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i saw 3 or so of those last year but there was no stores in those young weak hives that i had.
did this cluster of dead bees have honey in its box near the group?
if no honey in the box with the bees then it might be starvation.
cold temps keeping them in cluster long enough to bee to far from food can kill em
if honey was within reach of the cluster they should have been able to eat. then i would look at possible moisture /condensation problems as well as possible mite problem.
condensation in the hive on these cold wet days = rain from the top cover if not allowed to escape.
that can kill a small hive quick.
sorry it happened, it does happen to all of us though.
bailey
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It was probally a moisture problem. Did you have an upper entrance for ventilation? A notch 3/8 by 1 1/2 inches cut in the inner cover rim, turned down toward the brood chamber is good for ventilation. The SBB open, is good but does not help ventilation, without top vent. How do I know this, I learned it the hard way, the same as you. If bees get wet and cold from condensation they can't move to honey and starve. The advice in the previous post is good about the frames, freeze them and put more bees on them. You can send a sample to beltsville, link below, it is free.
http://ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472 (http://ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472)
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I'm new and not an expert by no means but I have to agree with the previous statement of your rather unusual and harsh winter. Just mark it up as a learning experience. Plus if your frames are okay for use you will be a step ahead for the next batch. I wish you the best.
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Hey Shep, sorry for the loss of your bees. Don't bee discouraged. I lost all 7 of my hives last year. Just keep rolling with the punches. With the gained experience and the help from the folks on beemaster, you will have success. It's a learning process. You just have to keep after it.
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Sorry to hear of your loss shep, but please don't let it run you off from beekeeping! We all have our losses and try to use them as learning experiences.
Scott
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gotta disagree with top and bottom opening. one or the other. if you have a screened bottom board, don't use an upper entrance. all you do is suck the heat out even with the slider in. if you have a bottom entrance, see the above.
if the hive is tipped forward a bit, that takes care of most of what rolls off. if you live in a really wet place, as i do, try some dry sugar on the top. sucks up a lot of excess moisture and give them emergency food if you gauged the stores wrong.
anyway, hope you don't quite. chalk it up the leaning and consider putting yourself on a swarm catch list. it's a cheap way to increase your hives if you have the time.
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You need to keep it in perspective. Commercial beekeepers wintering hundreds or thousands of hives sometimes lose huge percentages of their colonies overwinter. When you only have two, the odds are better that you may lose both. I know you have a bad taste in your mouth right now, but if you enjoyed your bees, you need to try it again. You have a valuable thing in those frames full of honey to start new packages on. Find a mentor in your area and listen to the people on this forum who keep bees in your climate. It is too much fun to give up on!
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Sounds like starvation to me.
Either way when you start beekeeping it can seem like you are taking one step forward followed by two steps backward. It can be very discouraging at times, but with a little time and effort, you will have more good times then bad. Long term beeks have learned to accept failure, learn from it and become a better beek because of it. Don't give up, look at it as a challenge and make an effort to prove to yourself that you can successfully keep bees.
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As far a sucking out the heat, it sucks out the moisture also. Cold does not kill bees in winter, moisture does, ask the beekeepers in the far north. Sorry to disagree.
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It sucks as a beginning beekeeper for any hive loss. I hated to lose the 1 hive out of my 7 and wouldnt want to imagine losing all of them like you did. On the bright side if there is one, you have plenty of drawn comb to start your new ones out. I'm replacing mine this year with nucs-I did order one Russian hybrid package from Walter Kelly to give them a try, but other than that, I think I'm done with packages. Your not that far from Fatbee. Give him a holler.
My vote is that your bees starved though. It's been unusually cold in our area and they probably couldnt break cluster to move to the food stores.
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Thanks y'all.. The word of encouragement helps. Someone posted that if I enjoyed them, then I shouldn't give in; that poster is correct! I did enjoy them! :)
It's a learning process I know.
That being said, I DO want to continue! I still have those frames that are all drawn out. I have a deep thats full of capped honey that I can freeze (along with the other frames). So why not put them to use..
Okay, so here's my question: What next? I know to clean everything out. I know to freeze the frames. But do I now consider ordering packages or go with Nucs?
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Frames were frozen last night if they are still outside. Order a package now. Bag the hive up on a dry day til spring. Drawn frames will do a package good.
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a nuc is hopefully better established. a nuc from a good supplier might be worth the money. this would be especially true if you were going to go treatment free and could find a supplier who had not treated the bees. they cost more.
packages take a little longer to get established but they catch up quickly if they are properly managed. they cost less.
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I usualy don't like to stick my nose in other people's business, but here I will risk it, cause, I for a longest time read, the same thing over and over.
If one has had a bad experience with upper entrance - that does not mean that the same will happen, or not, for all others?
Personally, I don't have a clue where this people live that are so against upper entrances? I gues that, if you live in hot and arid regions, than there is no fear from moisture? That said; in such areas the upper entrance is a WERY good thing to have, especialy in heat, don't you think? Otherwise an enormous labour force is lost when hot bees must gather up to two gallons of water a day to cool the hive. (Amount of watter of course varies with intensity of heat)
In my 56 years with the bees, I DO KNOW that I would not even attempt to keep even one hive of bees, without upper entrance, no matter where I was.
One can go into old bee books, as far back as one wants to? Forever has been mentioned; a cut in the rim, on inner cover, is a must. It has been a part of beekeeping practice as long and as far back as I know it and/or care to remember.
That cut is not only needed to get rid of moisture, that cut will get rid of many a other thing that can be deadly for a colony, especialy in winter. (and if you have no winters? Prepare for it anyway, as whether of late shows us. Snow fell so far this year in all 50 states of your great nation!)
A strong colony can ventilate in other times of the year and save the bacon to a careless keeper. They thus use a lot of power and labor, for this task, which could be avoided by simply placing a small cut in the rim of your covers. Are you are afraid of one extra opening? Bees will propolise it, they know if they don't need it? But when they need it, they suffer because it is not there, they sure can't go, grab a saw and cut one in!
When we take the bees, force them to live in boxes of size and colour that suits us - the least we can do, it is our duty as keeper of Gods creatures, to provide them with suitable, if not premium places to live!
Bees in winter burn food and create moisture (a few diferent kinds of moisture, by diferent means, I mean) and gases which must exit, or trouble will befall the colony. You all find, I'll bet, in Spring, that side combs are black and covered in mold? I bet that more than just #1 and #10 frames are moldy? Right? With upper entrances all this will be, should be eliminated.
Another important thing about survival in cold is, that for bees, to get out and poo, or do whatever? They have to crawl all the way down and out. Not many, if any, make it back to the cluster!
A monumental feat in cold weather, don't you agree?
With upper entrance, all that is eliminated. Bees have only a few short steps to get out, poop and are back before the cold slows them down, so much that they can't move and than must die.
There is a lot more to this, but I think that it should be enough for a person, with an open mind, with sense of care for bees in one's heart, that would come to reasonable conclusion about the importance of upper entrance.
I have traveled in warmer regions, not in US, I agree, but the world over... Such is the way with this issue, that one can find upper entrances in most places in most hives on our globe. At the same time, one can also find those who are against it, also in all those places.
Why do you think that so many swarms freebuilds their combs? Builds outside, not in a box?
One more thing; a piece of homasote, on top of inner cover is a good idea and on top of that a piece of Styrofoam. The humid air only condenses on areas where it comes in contact with cold surfaces. #1 such surface is on top of the hive. Others are of course the sides of your boxes, but, there some water won't bother your bees per se, it will run down and out if the hive is tilted forward. But, on floor it comes again in contact with cold and there will most likely frieze, turn to solid ice. This will frieze your bees and if ice is allowed to accumulate, plus the rest of stuff that ends up on the floor? That will block the bottom entrance, guaranteed, and your bees are again gone!
If it does not block the entrance, it will surely chill your bees and slowly release moisture right through the whole cluster - especialy so, when this ice starts to melt.
So, insulate it and bees will love you for it. One can also sleep better at night, when one knows that everything has been done to the best of our ability. Insulate at least the top, so it wont condensate there, turn into frost and ice and chill, eventually, in a day or two, kill the cluster. But, when it thaws, than the danger is the greatest, water drips on bees and wet bees suffer much before they die.
Remember: "Cold don't harm bees - moisture does! Every wet bee is a dead bee - guaranteed!"
I also have SBB which are closed, for the most part of the year. Yes, closed also in Summer! I open them only about an inch, when they start bearding. They must also be closed for some WERY important 'other' reason! (But that is another story)
I also insulate under the bottom board with Styrofoam! This is that important to me, an old man, that I crawl down, lay in the snow and insulate the bottom, every year. On top of that, my bees are in total wilderness and I must drive for two hours to get there, at the end of season that is. Spring, Summer and Fall, I live there... I mentioned this only for the reason to drive home the idea that it is important for me to drive that far and fix it right! And if winter starts early, than I snow-shoe in, cause the road is not plowed.
On the pictures above, I did not see any caped honey over - say, under the top-bar?
Your bees had starved to death. It sure looks so to me...
Don't falsely think that if you found a honey-frame, or perhaps two, on the sides, that they had enough to eat?
What is below them - might as well not be there. Bees won't touch it. In fact; some on this forum even think that bees don't have a clue that honey is/was there? That they forgot?
Well; to each their own?
Side frames, with honey, are not of much help either, if it is cold out and bees can not move on the other side of the frame, they are gonners. Look at each frame as a huge, impenetrable wall. Bees have to break the cluster and one by one crawl all the way around, below or over, to get on the other side. If queen is not able to follow - they will not move! God forbid that queen-excluder is left on?! Those things are not much good in the Summer, they are down right dangerous in winter!
If they have a few cells of brood, they will not go - they will die first, rather than to abandon brood!
Another falsehood I read/hear about, far too often. About loosing all that heat through the upper entrance?
I don't know how to write it down, that people will comprehend?
Bees don't heat the hive! Air around the cluster, even the surface of the cluster is just as cold as it is outside. In our parts, the inside the hive is often colder than outside. Inside the hive, it takes up to two days, often much longer, for the temperature to equalise, for the hive to became as warm or cold as the outside. Small change in weather and/or temperature are thus for bees less noticeable, if at all?
Bees only heat its own cluster, in the Winter - diferent story in Summer, and that heat stays/escapes only at the top. Only the top area, immediately above the cluster! Therefore, they will most likely, in colder regions locate right away at the top - to block/recapture this escape of wital heat.
Don't you people wory about this loss of heat from the cluster. That will happen, entrance or no entrance, period! That very heat that escapes from the cluster is exactly the bad stuf that kills them. In there is their breath, their gas! There is also all this moisture (breathing, burning fuel to stay warm, muscle flexing, etc...) which is the most dangerous - cause it is that warm moisture that will, at point of contact with cold surfaces, condense and kill your bees!
Well, I will now end my rumblings and hope that, those with open mind, make intelligent decisions based on those rumblings.
Remember: "It is better to learn on mistakes of others, than on ones own!"
Where I live, last winter we had temperatures down below -40 C for 3 weeks. It was usualy down to - 46 in some regions much, much colder. People are freezing to death here, at times like this, especialy if they make foolish decisions!
This winter is the same. Only today the weather broke. We had temps below - 50 C ! Other regions still do.
I hear it is not too nice in the US either? Only for us - your weather is for us - almost time to pull on the shorts and short sleeve shirts.
But, I never lost one colony in a looong time. Hope to God that is the same this winter, which will last here until May and can even stretch in to June. . .
I, for last couple of years, winter my bees in all new way. Bees are changing their ways, I keep discovering, just to keep up and survive with this crazy weather.
They don't start winters in lover box no more - no matter what I do. Right away they start under the inner cover. So, all those 130 pounds of honey that they have is no good to them. They simply starve before Christmas. When food, that they sit on, is gone - so are they. They will die if I give them 10 honey supers of the nicest honey possible, cause they will move through all those boxes and start at the top.
So, to save them I have to give them food right over their heads. This is now in a form of 'sugar candy board!" Tried dry sugar but they made the hole, got on the top, got cut by the cold and that was the end. They will and are always able to move straight up, no mater how cold it is. If they are nice and dry, of course. The slightest humidity and they stay put and die. Too many a keeper forget that bees are cold blooded...
About the new start in Spring?
Friend, forget about packages.
Where do they come from? Australia? Texas?
Don't take strange/foreign bees if somebody gives them to you for free! Those bees are good, maybe, in location where they come from? To successfully overwinter the bees have to be acclimatized on the place where you keep them. And believe you me, that don't happen the first year? The chances in the second year are greater - only they have to get there first.
Spring money for a good nuc! More bees the better.
I am amazed at how many beeks don't get advice to go with established colonies?
What? Is everybody nowadays selling packet-bees and are afraid that some people won't buy?
Here, in my parts of the woods, packages just don't exist. Beeks learn to be self sufficient. Queens are worth their weight in gold, if you can get them. Of Course, when they are available - everybody has them then.
Nuc cost here 175 dollars in a cardboard box. This year the price could be higher? Depends on how bees overwinter? What kind of demand will be - come Spring?
Even nuc is questionable? One gets two frames of bees, who knows what kind of queen and two empty frames? They don't even give you full frames as they are supposed to!
But, for a 200 and up to 300 dollars, I can buy an established colony. Two boxes high, bottom board, inner cover, homasote and telescopic cover and cause I am up in years, they will even deliver and set it up on my stand.
Do you get it?
The difference between nuc and established, overwintered colony is enormous? I get 20 frames of bees, brood, polen, honey/food everything - for a price of an nuc, or a bit more if the equipment is new or almost new!
Such a colony could be split in four and still give you a honey crop. What is even more important is; they are local bees, acclimatized, used to weather, forage and winters. They can't be beat!
But, it is you buying, not me and you will do as you will, right?
Regards,
Trot
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Trot,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I for one always listen to what you and Finski say, even though I can be stubborn at times :)
Like you say, it’s best to learn from other peoples mistakes.
Personally I have followed most of what you and Finski preach! Thank you so much for sharing.
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man, you wrote a book! :-D
i will take issue with one part.
Another falsehood I read/hear about, far too often. About loosing all that heat through the upper entrance?
I don't know how to write it down, that people will comprehend?
Bees don't heat the hive! Air around the cluster, even the surface of the cluster is just as cold as it is outside. In our parts, the inside the hive is often colder than outside. Inside the hive, it takes up to two days, often much longer, for the temperature to equalise, for the hive to became as warm or cold as the outside. Small change in weather and/or temperature are thus for bees less noticeable, if at all?
if this were true, the snow would not melt off the top of the hive. it's a great way to know you still have a strong colony! it is not possible for the surface of the cluster to be as cold as outside, or the bees would freeze.
i am not against upper entrances, although i do think that in winter more heat is lost that way that with a lower entrance. i am against both a lower and an upper entrance. you don't need a PHD to understand the chimney effect. heat is retained inside the hive. sucking it out the top by having two entrances is not necessary. a little early preparation will reduce moisture issues.
people say that moisture kills bees, not cold. this is untrue. both can kill. grab a few bees and stick them in the freezer for a couple of days.
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grab a few bees and stick them in the freezer for a couple of days.
But yet when they have stuck a hive of bees inside a freezer at -60 for a month, the bees were still alive...
From the pictures, it does not appear that moisture was an issue. When moisture is an issue, dead bees will have a wet greasy appearance.
Do you use white plastic foundation, or is that granulated honey in the cells in the first pic? Bees can starve on hard granulated honey. For example, Canadian beekeepers know that canola makes a very poor wintering feed. It crystalizes hard and the bees can't use it.
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i might be missing something, but those don't look like dead bees to me. they also don't look like they are starved. are you sure they were not just cold and not moving? i know from first hand experience that this is a mistake that can be made! :-\
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I also have SBB which are closed, for the most part of the year. Yes, closed also in Summer! I open them only about an inch, when they start bearding. They must also be closed for some VERY important 'other' reason! (But that is another story)
Regards,
Trot
Fantastic post. Please more stories.
I have learned some of this already(the hard way).
Our winters here aren't anything like yours, but many times the bees can't move for long periods of time and starve.
Will have to re-read several times to get all the info to sink in. I think there are many little nuggets of gold in your post.
You sir, are a rare beekeeper.
Someone that has many years of experience and can learn from the printed word of others and apply that knowledge is unique I'm afraid.
Too many people, that claim to have 20 years experience in something, actually only have 1 year experience 20 times.
Please continue making comments on any topic that comes up. There will always be people that can't handle the truth.
But if you get it down here we can find it when we need it and are ready for it.
More power to you.
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Thank you all for your help! Probably one of my problems, and most likely the biggest problem, is that I never really asked any questions specific to my issues.. It's cost me two dead hives.. All I can do is shake my head and look at the dead bees.
Anyways, I wanted to not only say Thank you for the reply, but I want to answer some of your questions you've posted in this topic of mine.. Sooooo Away we go!
Trot.. Thanks for an awesome post! It's been copied and posted over to my door in the basement!
KathyP.. Yea, they are dead... no movement at all. I took one frame inside with the intent to pull a few bee's to throw under a microscope and those that are headfirst into the cells aren't moving. In fact none are moving in the 60+ temps in my basement.
Allen.. It never did reach freezing here on my little mountaintop that night. All frames that have the capped honey are still out there. Should I move them now? Deep Freeze?
Moisture problems? I just don't know. I haven't seen any signs of mold or anything to do that could be moisture related, but then again.. I'm not experienced enough to advise. One thing I did make sure of was to keep the SBB open and to make sure the inner cover was placed to allow for some slight venting.
I'm hoping to start out again from FatBeeMan with a couple of Packages.. He's only about 20 minutes from me, and these bee's are "from the area" whereas the dead ones were ordered from up north. I'm also hopeful to get some Nuc's from FatBeeMan too.
This weekend it'll be in the mid to upper 50's in my area so I hope to get out and clean both the hives. I'm sorry for the lack of Pictures from the other day.. I hope to do better this weekend!
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Ya, put the hive in the deep freezer until you get some bees from Don. Let the hive warm up, dry off insode a couple of days before putting in the new bees. The new bees will clean up the frames.
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head in and dying that way is a sign of starvation.
you are smart to get local bees and lucky to have a good supplier close. in spite of my other posts about small cell, he has a reputation for good bees. that's a good thing.
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I leave my supers on after extraction... that way when it's warm, they can eat all they want.
...DOUG
KD4MOJ
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But yet when they have stuck a hive of bees inside a freezer at -60 for a month, the bees were still alive...
Do have a link or reference to that? That's pretty amazing. We could all just forget about overwintering our bees and just pop them in the freezer till spring. :-D
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the difference is that he's claiming they stuck the hive in there. you can't stick bees in without them freezing and dying. the idea that bees don't heat the hive, at least a portion of it, doesn't even make sense. even if the bees intended only to heat the cluster, the cluster would still radiate a certain amount of heat. i will agree that the majority of the heat is retained in and close to the cluster, but the air around them is warmer also.
http://www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php)
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Thanks Kathy. I was just reading an article about that.
http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:qJW0ro92txEJ:scholar.google.com/+author:Stabentheiner+%22Thermographic+Determination+of+Body+Temperatures+in+Honey+Bees+and+Hornets:+Calibration+and+Applications.%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,34 (http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:qJW0ro92txEJ:scholar.google.com/+author:Stabentheiner+%22Thermographic+Determination+of+Body+Temperatures+in+Honey+Bees+and+Hornets:+Calibration+and+Applications.%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,34)
Or here is the pdf. http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf (http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf)
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Thanks for the post Frameshift,
I’ve seen this before but I had forgotten how many good points they make. Definitely a keeper to save on hand for the next round of arguments about wintering and bee metabolism rates in the winter.
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Yes, I can write all the books I want, people still don't, won't get it. Simply because they have it in their mind, that so is so, no other way will prove to them diferent.
I will tell you this, if snow melts from your covers, your bees are uncomfortable, not happy at all. The only way, if they survive, is that you are lucky, cause you live in the area that has no real winter.
(About the snow melting? C'mon lady, you like to be the sharpest pencil around? Read again, think what I said? But, don't mind me, read the books, read what others had said about the so called heat in the hive?)
Such thinking is pure illusion! Fulling self and others!
Please, don't just read and turn things around, to suit your cause and than rush and tear my house down.
I am the first man to admit that I don't know much about bees. (more I learn less I know)
But, I forgot more than others will ever know.
All that aside, I do know how to keep them alive in the hardest winters, one can find anywhere that bees fly and man keeps them. I also know that when bees die, where they shouldn't, all things being equal? Than something is wrong and that such end is not fault of varroa, or fault of some 'entrance' that can't get past someones craw?
Varoa, a parasite, they have no intention of killing their host. Their only intention is peaceful coexistence. But, when the colony is dead, it is also the easiest thing to tell, if it was varroa?
Dead bees, dead Varroa. As simple as that.
The floor of the hive should be full of dead Varroa, cause they can't go anywhere. Dead host, dead parasite!
Hive, where snow is melting from the roof is sure sign that something is alive in there, sure. But that is all. Being alive is one - being alive, comfortable, dry and content - that is something totally diferent.
Sorry lady, if my reply this time don't suit you either?
I have a nasty habit to tell it the way it is and the way I see it. My advanced years and 56 years with bees... That all put together, that gives me some rights. I ran thousands of hives - for others, plus mine and I can count on fingers of my hand, for all the years when hives were lost - besides those over which human hand has no control. (Failing, lost queen, bear, wind knocks them over and the like...)
And I admit, that with the coming of Varroa in 1986, I gave it all up, because I refused to treat my bees with all them poisons. At the same time also, the Lord gave me the sign to quit - with broken back. But I always had a few hives to keep me company, cause without bees, life is not worth living.
I have been to the corner and back, more times than most and I have no intention on locking horns with those who refuse to entertain, even for a minute, something diferent than what their minds are set on.
Yes, chimney-effect is exactly what one should have in the hive. But, chimney effect is exactly that what the word implies. That means; bottom entrance and top entrance are aligned, are on the same side of the hive. Than the chimney effect acts close to the wall, by air ever so gently drawing up and out, it gently pulls with it the moisture from the hive and your bees are dry and happy and alive come Spring.
If chimney effect is not reached, than one has a 'cross-draft' which blows across the cluster and bees suffer and that is when the cold will kill them. One should not have cross-draft, even in the Summer. The only good point having it is; varroa likes it!
Cold... lady? Does cold scare you so much? If you don't like it, keep warm, but don't make your bees suffer, cause to me it looks like you are doing your darnest to have them nice and warm, heee, hee...
Thinking wrongly, though, that they are nice and warm.
How worm is that? Why don't you and I stop fooling around? My hive tops don't loose no snow, by melt from the heat below. (heat from the cluster NOT the hive) Yours do! So, who got warmth and who is loosing it?
Let the readers of this tread decide. . .
I can pull any book you would point out to me, from my library - or yours, if you have one, and in it find the right ansver. Since you don't believe what I have to say? Perhaps you would believe the words of others?
There is cold and then there is COLD! One does not - the other does kill them.
I will put it this way: If bees have been prepared for winter the right way - cold will NOT kill them! Most, I am itching to say all, most are lost to some sort of human error!
Bees that live under the top that melts its snow, they are only by a small stroke of luck still alive. (Why? I mentioned it several times already.)
One more thing: Go look on Internet, Google beekeepers across Manitoba, Alberta, etc...
(It has been mentioned on this forum already, many a time, through the years...)
There they bury their bees - thousands of hives - under the snow and they stay buried for months. They are fine in the Spring though.
But, what do I know lady? You got over 9 thousand posts? I don't...
All I wanted to do is to give the gent here a piece of advice, cause he needs it. He asked for it and he got it.
(Like it or not)
How and what he plans to do with it, that is totally his doing.
But, to my delight, I see that he is a man I thought he is. He cares about bees. He cares about the craft, the art of keeping bees and he most likely won't see a repeat of situation that has befallen him this time. I also see that he will get nucs from Myron, Fatbeeman? Myron has good bees and the man knows his bees, his craft and how to work with them properly.
I have no intent on forcing nothing on nobody. I only give advice which has been gathered with over tvo hundred years of family tradition by keeping bees, on two continents and tried by me and others. Others way better than me, for the last 60 years or so, here and in Europe.
I can go on and on, cause there are more questions aching to be answered and answered right. But, I don't want to bore nobody to sleep either, heeee, heee ;)
Best regards and good luck to all...
Trot
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should i feel verbally spanked? :evil:
lady...well, i have certainly been called worse....
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Trot’s Book Part 2!!!
This one is going on my door along with part 1 !
Kathy, I have read a lot of your posts, respect you highly, and love your inputs, but I don’t think you’re going to win this arguement... ;)
Trot, I make SURE all my hives have top vents because I fear you might come down and find me here in Michigan if I didn’t :-D
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BB you should never take the word of any of us, as gospel. take the parts that make sense to you and go with it. in the end, you end up with your own system and it will not be the same as any of ours.
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And then we'll turn around and not take anything YOU say as gospel! :)
Scott
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This has got to be one of the classic quotes of the year:
“cause without bees, life is not worth living”, Trot 2011
Trot, I made a typo in my early post, I meant to say I use top ENTRANCES like you are saying.
Kathy you’re RIGHT, we do need to listen to everybody, and I do. I try to learn as much from everybody here so I as I don’t screw up too many times. I have read tons of your posts too. Thank you so much for passing along so much of your knowledge too!
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Thank you for the kind words WPG.
There is certainly much more to this whole thing, about wintering, cluster warmth, false assumptions, that I don't mention the notion, anchored in some minds, that bees heat the hive?
I see that some new data has surfaced now?
That too can be 'long and widely' debated. All tests have faults if they are not performed carefully, in locales where problems are most evident and not in some locale which are hundreds, or even thousands of miles off. Not performed by competent people and not performed by beekeeper, or at least under the watchful eyes of competent beeks.
Most of those test are done in Germany, by the way. Germany is the only country where they bother at all to compile such answers to questions that elude us and will keep eluding us for long time to come. Never will men learn all that is to learn about bees. I have even today hard time accepting some facts which have been debunked with passing of time, or new ones that come along as this time rolls along.
What about all the thing they beat into our sculls in school and has proven now to be wrong?
This imperfect science is no diferent.
If such scientific stuff is so hot? If is so correct why they have such a hard time finding what is killing our bees? Ansver is perhaps obvious, but nobody dare mentions it???
About the staff on posts now?
It all comes down to, where the tests were made? Make identical tests in our winter and it will show that one inch, 3cm from the cluster, temperature will be equal to temp outside. Take temp reading on the cluster at -40 C, or lower and the surface of cluster will be as cold as the outside and/or any place inside of the hive. In such cases bees on the cluster will freeze and if sun does not warm up the hive, such frozen bees will die - not from cold but from hunger.
(Especialy misleading are thermal photos, because they fool the human mind. One sees with own eyes, the heat, and warm and cool/colder zones and mind registers it. But reality is much, much more complex and diferent than the pictures. Thermal camera registers everything that is even one iota diferent from the surroundings. In reality, from bees point of view, that has no meaning at all. For them is either warm to fly, or cold enough to cluster. The colder it is, the tighter they cluster and harder they work to keep the temps that enables them to stay alive and make it to the Spring thaw...
Life of a bee is as simple as that. They dont give a hoot what temp is 3cm from the cluster? What is in the corner of the box and what temp is at that particular moment outside or wherever? They care for the temperature, core of the cluster to be just so. That they have food, which is passed from mouth to mouth to the outside bees. They care that the outside bees, most of the time frozen, wake up and are rotated to the inside of the cluster, to take a brake. And perhaps they even prey to their keeper to prep them right, so condensation does not gather on the inner cover and drip on them. For wherever even one drop of water falls, on the cluster - it is like an ice bullet is shot through the ball. All the bees are dead in short time and when there is a streak of dead bees through the cluster, it is like a hole has opened up and that hole disrupts the heated ball. A few more such holes and the whole cluster is lost, cause the equilibrium, their concentration, the group effort to generate heat is slowly falling apart and one by one bees become immobile, become lifeless and eventually die, cause when immobile they are not able to eat, etc, etc. . .
It is slow and painful death, let me assure you.
No such tests as shown above has kept any of the bees alive. They are only good to those who do them, cause they need them for their school or whatever they call those things? They also generate money to the university labs, etc... They have no actual value in hands of beekeepers who are trying to feed their families and pay the bills with their craft which we call beekeeping.
Those pictures above are perhaps done by at least two members who are frequent visitors/participants on some bee-forums. their names I won't mention for obvious reasons...
You mentioned a true fact, that bees can't move and thus die. That is so. It is a well proven fact!
They can't or won't move down, period. One can have all the honey beneath them - they will starve! They will go down in warm enough weather though. (I mention this in hope that Nitpickers don't jump me) :)
They often can't move sideways either, cause of restrictions that combs itself pose to them.
The only way for bees in cold weather is for them to move up. For the simple reason that all of the heat, that they generate by shivering, burning food, etc is escaping from the top of the cluster. So heat raises, so do the bees. But, when they reach the inner-cover their way, progression is halted. If weather don't cooperate, they can't move sideways and they are goners!
To save them, one has to place man made food immediately above their heads to save them.
I find that this problem is especialy true for the bees that are not acclimatized on cold/colder conditions than those from where they come from. It takes the second year that the colony starts learning the ropes, as it were... But, this second year is for most novices far too often unattainable, I am sorry to say. . .
People in regions, where they usualy don't experience winter, by this I mean, winter as in lower temps than what is normal for that time of the year? In such instances the cold weather is a killer. Bees have no experience, nor do they have any practise in such matters. Say, they were flying day before - overnight fell snow and next day they just might all come out and die in the snow. It is just their habit at work, more than anything else?
(They will live, if one picks them up, blow warm breath on them, until they wake up and put them back in the hive) By doing this one will notice that house bees know that those bees have been in trouble and wont fight them. They take them in without fuss.
I do that a lot in Spring, when maples bloom, is warm, but a few feet of snow still covers the ground.
So, that is why last year many a beekeeper lost many a hive to this phenomena which is nowadays our weather.
You people, down south, you have to be especialy prepared for such occurrences, because I believe that we will see more of that than has been the norm until now.
We, up here in Canada, we don't have to wory so much about that, other than to prepare them right for winter and than forget about them. For you, down south, it is a diferent story.
I get E-mails every day, most of them from Europe, about fallen colonies and I can't help in those cases either... I expect a lot of bad news from all over the world as Spring nears..?
Nature is cruel. We have to learn to roll with the punches and if using our wits right, we can also get ahead of the curve.
Thanks again and good luck...
Regards,
Trot
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I've always heard there was a study done involving putting a hive of bees in a deep freeze at -60 for a month and the bees survived. I'm having a hard time googling anything on it though...too many keywords.
Bees may not intend to heat the entire hive, but if you have a well insulated hive, the heat from the cluster does not dissipate as fast and the cluster actually begins to warm the interior of the hive. When I remove the styrofoam from the top of a hive in winter, why do I feel a wave of hot air come out if the bees are not heating the interior of the hive?
People heat our own body. We do not use our body to heat our home. However, if you get a bunch of people in a room, the room warms up because of body heat. A hive is the same way.
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Trot, what is your opinion on polystyrene (foam) hives? I know Finski reports using them in Finland to great success. What is your opinion of them? Have you ever tried one?
You have given us so many gold nuggets in these books of yours. I’m still sifting through all you’ve said.
I am one of those ‘science types’, but I am smart enough to listen to somebody who has been so successful for so long is such an EXTREMELY cold climate.
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I am one of those ‘science types’, but I am smart enough to listen to somebody who has been so successful for so long is such an EXTREMELY cold climate.
I'm a biochemist and tend to be defensive when science is criticized. Science is very important to the future of all of us. Even commercial beekeepers will benefit in the long run. But I have to admit that since the 1980s the practice of science has been dominated by the incursion of corporate business models into what was previously a more pure (and poor) practice of science for the sake of knowledge. Scientists are just people, like everyone else and they like to be able to pay the rent. Government funding of universities declined in the early 80s and was replaced by corporate funding which has a more directed agenda.
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government has no agenda. it's way better to have them funding science. you get way better experiments too. bet i don't even have to list any for a bunch to pop into your mind!
business, science, whatever, is only as pure as the person running the thing at that moment. governments on the other hand, are tax payer funded, institutionalized, petri dishes of corruption. there's the rare benign bacteria mixed in, but for the most part, it's a case of fulminating corruption. ;)
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Countryboy,
There is a report somewhere about that hive in the freezer. I had that saved somewhere, cause years ago beeks demanded the scientific proof that bees don't die from cold. But, I probably erased it, cause I, at that time, decided that I have nothing to prove to nobody. Let the record stand on its own! Nothing to prove, especialy not, with work that others do, for whatever reason? (most likely for personal gain?)
If you can't find it, it is possible that it don't exist any more. A lot of scientific literature, that I save in "favourites,' is after a while useless, cause they do regularly remove such stuff from the sites.
About hot air hitting you in the face?
That is perhaps exactly the problem that is problematic?
I doubt that "hot" is realy that hot? It is only warmer air that you feel. You feel it more, cause around you is drier colder air. Warmer air from the hive, hitting your face, is cause, warm-moist air raises in the cold, dry, winter air. With a little wind one would not fill a thing.
If you remember what I said? It is this warm air that, at the point of contact, with colder surfaces condenses and causes moisture and even water problems - therefore killing many a hive. If you are not further north from me, or some land-locked locale in the US where cold lingers and reaches extreme lows, insulating your hives is probably not necessary. All one needs, in most cases, is a piece of homasote (some pour pounds and pounds of sugar on top of frames. same effect, only that sugar is also emergency food in case the bees are on the verge of starvation) On top of homasote one must immediately place about 2 inches thick piece of Styrofoam. Of course an entrance in the rim of the inner cover with the notch facing down. This notch, facing down, is very important. (must also be in front - same side as bottom entrance) By facing down, the humid air will be drawn by chimney-effect out from under the inner cover. There, under the inner cover is all the warmth which escapes through the top of the cluster. Thus the false notion that bees heat the hive. Believe me, if bees could, they would gladly pull all that heat back in for themselves. Heat is good but moisture and CO2, bee breath and other gases produced by burning food - that must escape, go somewhere.
If the notch is turned up, than trouble begins! The humidity must move, right? So, the air enters the bottom entrance travels up and across, through the cluster - this is cross-draft and should not be happening even in Summer, cause it cools the brood and Varroa only lives in the coldest parts of the nest. That is why they go in drone brood. Drone brood is always on fringes, in colder parts of the nest. (ofcourse, to satisfy nitpickers) one will find drone brood in centre also if that is where drone-cells happen to be)
So, moisture vill have the only way to escape by going through centre hole in inner cover. That hole is not meant for ventilation! Inner cover was developed to be a tray for feeding and to separete the hive from the cover so the bees don't propolize the cover and render hive bomb proof.
This is actually feeding hole over which one inverts a feeder pail or a glass jar. In summer this hole is also meant to give bees access to the top of the cover so they can control ants, moth and whatever else might crawl in there. it is absolutely not meant for ventilation - believe you me. In summer I even cover those holes by placing a piece of 1/4" plywood over them. I don't want no cross-draft going through my hives. (I also have yet to see, in my hives, one single Varroa mite. Yes, believe it or not - I have no mite problems. I buy nucs to replenish my bloodline (my bees raise their own queens when they see fit) and those nucs are treated by previous owner at some time or other. When I get them, I place them in special, old box (probably hopelessly contaminated?) when brood emerges I burn all. Frames , Honey - all! I get rid of ch-ems and previous poisons. But, varoa disappears. Maybe I have it, but I am yet to see one. Even our two bee inspectors that yearly examine my bees (it is the law here) they never saw one eider...
Just thought to mention this. . .
I do not insulate mine. I only wrap them in roofing felt (black one) for sollar gain. warming up a hive in winter is very important - that more often than not saves them. That little warmth, often not even noticeable by us, that is what enables bees to be able to eat or not.
That is even more important for you friends in warmer regions - your bees are not used to cold temps and they suffer more , are affected more by it.
Regards,
Trot
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BlueBee,
personaly I do not put nothing in my hives what bees would not bring in from Nature themselves.
Bees have a helluva time surviving, I can't see myself contributing even a little bit to their problems.
I wish some of you could come visit? My bees ere something else. As I of course live almost all year alone in the wilds of Northern Ontario, bees are very dependant and totally friendly. Whatever I do, they come and investigate. They sit on my hands and watch. I have spent 13 years building a great stone retaining wall with circular staircase, they were constantly there. Even in the midle of the night, when I had to finish/dress the joints between stones, they would come and watch.
But than, I have special bond with all the animals at my place. I have bears passing, checking me out daily and to this day, thank God, they have left my bees alone. But, I do talk to the bears and we have an understanding... they are keeping their word so far. Even those which I raised and put away in hand made dens for the winter. They come and visit, according to our small dogs. (they go hide under my bed when bears roam around) :-D
Back to those hives:
Germans are the ones that invented and perfected them? I understand that they are great for early build up. If you have early honey-flow - go for it.
What I don't like is the piece of plastic that has to be placed between the cover and the hive. To keep it from being forever glued together. That piece of plastic will sure be problematic, because it sweats. Also no place for inner cover. Than, for those who still use queen excluders. For those hives excluders are paper thin, special item I suspect?
(since - I also see that other copy and also use this plastic in their hives not realy knowing what they are doing. Man constantly forces poor bees on thing that tickle his fancy - never thinking what all those gadgets do to poor bees?)
They tend to be easily damaged by UV - so painting with good paint is a must.
They are also easily damaged when prying apart. In Germany this is less of a problem cause Carniolan bees don't propolize like some other mutts that we have.
God forbid putting in some of those heavy-propolizers, Russian or worse - Caucasian bees?
I also hear that they are well liked by queen breeders, again because of the heat that they retain and that can be an issue in those mini hives that breeders use. I gues it frees the work force for other tasks?
Regards,
Trot
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it is not possible for the surface of the cluster to be as cold as outside, or the bees would freeze.
I saw some inferred video that suggested this is true. It was about as scientific as you could get. There was evidence that the bees on the outer surface were so cold they couldn't move but survive because the bees inner to the outer surface pulled them into the warmer center and revive. I tend to believe things that have scientific background over much of the guessing that is unsupported.
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it is absolutely not meant for ventilation - believe you me. In summer I even cover those holes by placing a piece of 1/4" plywood over them. I don't want no cross-draft going through my hives.
Trot, we lost our first hive last spring due to moisture. It did not have an upper entrance or a notch in the inner cover. This year it does and we also had our telescoping cover propped up with a stick in the summer. This years hive grew much faster than last years and they weren’t all over the face of the hive in the summer like last year. It is warmer down here then you but not a lot I would say. It sounds like you feel it is a bad idea to prop the cover in the summer. How do you know when there is too much ventilation?
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Wow Acebird,
this is a tough one that I am struggling with in order to properly understand it.
Q:
You lost a hive last year to moisture and it did not have a top entrance?
A:
That I can understand and we all know why the hive did not make it.
Q:
This year you have the top entrance and everything is peachy and hive did great?
A:
That is good and as expected. Keep up the good work.
Q:You also had propped up the telescopic cover with sticks and you feel that I don't like that.
A:
It is not necessarily so. I do not recall that I mentioned propping the telescopic cover at all? I am more against the practice of propping the inner cover with sticks, cause that can create many a problem. I should add that many a keeper use sticks to prop things up and they claim that it works? Well, if done properly it will work 200% better - Guaranteed!
I can never understand such behaviour, sloppiness or whatever is called and the motivation for that is?
(maybe they have feelings of love for that inner-cover and would break their heart to cut a notch in it? I don't know?)
Pssst .... between you and me, it is most likely just plain laziness?
(I also don't like that, about what you did with the cover, but don't recall mentioning it?)
One has, with so doing, opened to the elements 3 sides of the hive, compared to a small opening which is cut into the rim. Such opening being only 2" wide and 6mm high, that is easy to defend and does not expose 3 complete side to the weather; rain, snow, ice, too much and multidirectional cross-draft, wind and all kinds of creepy crawlies.
Also bees in such hives are more defensive and bitchy, cause they know that hive is vulnerable and they can't do much about it. Bees get moody if there is too much ventilation also - but here I am a bit more careful by saying this cause beekeeping is fiercely territorial. That being: some thing work in some locales - some don't so god and some don't work at all.
Give to those 3 sides also the top hole in the center of inner cover and one realy has a problem, which one had created and by doing so one has compromised safety and comfort of such hive.
(such things can also affect the honey yield and sometimes to a greater extent than one realizes.)
Propping the telescoping cover too, gives same if not more problems already described in upper paragraph.
I am a strong believer in a simple fact that all of our beekeeping equipment had been developed, long time ago, it has been tested by long years of use by millions of beeks on hundreds of millions of hives. There simply just is no way to improve on that proverbial mouse-trap!
What was good has been kept, other stuff kind of went by the way side. Only from time to time somebody finds it and hopes to reinvent the wheel, as it were.
About the last question?
Only bees know for sure, when there is too much ventilation and one has to learn to watch them.
You mention ventilation in summer?
There is not realy such a thing - to have too much ventilation in the summer.
I am talking now about hive above the brood!
At that time bees need it, because they are drying the honey, eliminating the water from it, that is. Leaving two brood-chambers alone and one honey-super above, we used to stagger the supers, to give them air. One gives them only enough room for a single bee to squeeze through.
When they beard, festoon, or sit on front of the hive, as somebody has mentioned, one gives them more air, either by pulling out the drawer-part of the bottom board. Open more the bottom entrance, only that is not a good practice, cause by full opening all kinds of creatures can get into the hives. From mice, rats, yes rats and snakes even rattlers!
In old days, 20 years ago when we used standard bottom boards, they had a summer and winter side. One side had 3/4" rim the other only 1/8" or so. Mine were always set on 1/8" side. When I operated 5000 hives for others it was their property and they preferred 3/4" side, there I ofcourse used entrance reducers.
I never have bottom bigger than the 3/8" opening on the standard entrance reducer. That means I have winter size opening on the bottom. Additional ventilation I regulate with SBB. Only by opening it 1" - that is all that is needed at my place and that is only when I notice that they start festooning, bearding or whatever one calls this behaviour.
Now we got to the telescopic cover.
I make those myself and in back side I drill two 3/4" holes which are drilled on an angle. That means that I drill them from the bottom side up - into the side of the cover. By so doing, the rain, no matter how wind driven, it never can drain on top of the hive. On the inside of those holes I glue a piece of screen to keep unwanted creatures out. On the inside of the rim/cover I nail 3/4" pieces of wood to create a rim on which the cover sits on top of the hive, this being the homasote which in turn sits tight on the inner-cover.
NO place on/in my hives is there a crack! Crack meaning, being there by creation; like poor workmanship, twisted boxes, God forbid - propping things up, etc...
In the Summer those cracks, no matter how they got there, they create cross-draft, or just plain draft by wind being able to blow through and across the insides of the hive. This is crucial only in brood chambers and ofcourse deadly in late Fall through winter and early or even all of Spring.
I will disclose one more secret to you people. Too much ventilation - man made, intentional or otherwise - that creates ideal conditions for Varroa to take hold and explode. What follows I don't have to tell you. Everybody should know it. Varroa loves cool conditions. You all probably already heard, that some claim that on sunny locations Varroa problem is not much of a problem at all. Well in tight boxes and warm brood chambers, Varroa won't be a problem at all either.
One must work with Nature and not against it, if one hopes to make any strides worth mentioning. . .
Regards,
Trot
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Thanks for the answer Trot. So if I understand you correctly you prefer to ventilate from the bottom and not through the inner cover hole. Correct?
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TROT
Thankyou for your hard bought experience. I kept bees 30 years ago in temperatures like you speak of. Look on the map where Sask and Manitoba meet on the border with the USA and go a mile south. I wintered bees there and noted if not understood much of what you are talking about then . I wrapped my bees which had been fed up to 125 LBS minimum weight in 6" batts of fiberglass insulation and left the bottom entrance open and I had a small top entrance in the front of my cover open too. I covered the top with the same insulation and coverd that all with the roofing felt you spoke of. I made sure they could get out. But in those winters, it was common for no flying days for over four months anyway. The bottom entrances didn't draw much wind because I put them behind dense hedges and hoped that the tops of the hives were four feet under the top of the snow. When that snow cover was realized, they wintered very well! I put them in a double row facing out to do this wrap and when the spring thaw finally came, the bees would come pouring out of the snow and ice cave melted around them often several feet above the hives. I was not using an inner cover because I had been assured that they were only toys for hobbyists by my commercial keeper friends and teachers. I think that was a mistake. I did use some candy boards on top but the moisture problems you speak of caused me to quit trying to use them. I need some instruction on proper use of those if you are willing to share your knowledge. The inside of those snow caves used to look like a tabacco chewer had spent the winter in there with the bees. I think they did a lot of crawling in their snow cave. Was not a huge number of dead bees outside the hives so I think they were making it out and back in. I am starting again now in a warmer better place to winter bees I think. I have many things to ask you sir and am looking forward to listening. I am only sixty and know I have a lot to learn:<}
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Trot; just printed off all of your posts :) And I'll likely continue to do so. Thanks. Is there an address where I can send you a check? Seriously, man!
We have "blueslovers" friends we visit (been awhile and we owe them one) in Manitoba (one who grew up in central Ontario). As much as I dislike travling anymore, I believe we may have to make a road trip your way some time in the future (watching gas prices for a sign :-\). Thanks again.
thomas
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You got it, but it is not what I prefer. All what I am talking about is gained by doing, over the long years and I try my hardest to suit the bees and not me. I live in a nice house, two of them actually and there should be the place where I can thinker and decorate to my hearts desire?.
Bees are the ones that live outside in boxes that we stuck them in to. If they would have a chance I am sure that they would find something diferent than what we put them in? By the same token, most of them would surely die over the winter.
Most hard core beeks call this 'Natures way of ensuring the survival of the fittest'. Which of course is correct but it is also all wrong.
Mother Nature has nothing to do if bees, for some reason or other, found a home in a rock crevice which is too small, or even in a flood plain, or area where spring thaw will drown them, or at best, make their home damp. Or they did not collect enough honey, polen, to last them through the winter. Or are in a tree where the bear will tear them apart?
Bees can not control such things - only we can help them there. So, when you people find a colony of bees that has found a home, where things might go wrong, it would be nice if you would help them, by cutting them out and saving the little fools.
Now, back to the question at hand.
I have bottom and top entrances. Would not keep bees without them. (I wish people would forget about centre hole? Some call it even a handhold?) This, bottom top thing, works well and if bottom friezes or gets buried in snow no harm can befall the bees. They always have the upper hole. Even if the whole hive is buried in snow, they will still survive, cause for bees enough oxygen gets through, or is released from snow for them to survive. They will move around in this cavity under the snow with no ill effect to them.
When I lived in Europe I was active in avalanche rescue, cause I had an German Shepard and we both helped when help was needed. People survived for long time under the snow as long as it was not packed too tightly around them.. If they were able to move and a bit enlarge such a hole, they said that breathing was not the problem.
I am not a scientist and have no answers to explain, to inquisitive minds in fancy words, why is so? All I strive for and care for - is to keep my bees alive and well.
Centre hole, feeding hole is not meant for ventilation, cause it draws, creates cross-draft through the cluster. I wrote about that already? But, if the hive was under the snow, than this is negligible and does no harm. It would be a diferent story if the hive was out in the open, or worse, when wind is howling! There are many a variables over which one can debate and even argue for ever.
If something works for me, I am satisfied and I have no further need to go and nitpick, tear everything down and give myself more questions than I know the answers to. All I know is, poking around and grasping hopelessly for straws, such doing will only give me some more gray hairs, perhaps a headache or two and nothing more.
I always cary in my mind some words from a "swamp person" from a Louisiana bayou, making a living catching gators. Some time ago, National Geographic had sent there a team of scientists and a film crew, to record what was going on. They were even concerned that too many a gator was being cut? (It's a tree-hugger thing) This man did not like the idea of city-slickers being there, much less - that he was forced by a processor that he takes those people into the swamps and show them what it takes to make a living catching gators on a fishing hook. Man did not like it, but said that he must go by their time honouring tradition, that one does not bite the hand that feeds him.
After much stalling, showing of and acting macho, by the visiting crew, the man turned to the most mouthy scientist and calmly told him this: "Mista, you just shut you mouth right now! You may be book smart, but you ain't no common sense smart! Here is a diferent ball game! Here a common sense means if you live, or you die! No book will save your sorry ass here."
Regards,
Trot
Thanks for the answer Trot. So if I understand you correctly you prefer to ventilate from the bottom and not through the inner cover hole. Correct?
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Trot,
Thank you so much for all this great info! I’ve been using foam hives, but I do want to try to winter a hive or two in wood like you have described here so well. I will do that next winter.
I have a question about your candy board. You said earlier that you switched over to using a candy board and starting your bees right under it in the fall. They needed food over their heads, you said. That all made sense to me.
So my question is, did your candy board replace your inner cover? Did you notch a hole in the front of the candy board and is that what your bees are using for a top entrance?
Thanks.
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Alas, it is true what you say Trot. That's why I follow your posts. You know, I've hunted gator a few times in louisianna with a pretty salty fellow (no BS) and can relate as well to that (but I still wouldn't try that alone, uh-uh, no way).
Fortunately for me (a beek without available local mentors or clubs for guidance) I still have you and others on this forum, along with an ever increasing librairy and plenty of determination to do things right, even if I have to do it wrong first :-D I've got the scars to prove it ;).
And it doesn't hurt having the "common sense" to know that bees don't have nearly as big a teeth as gators :-D
thomas
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My one cent:
I was born in Tampa, FL, lived in Pittsburgh for three years which is where I started to keep bees, and now am back in Florida keeping bees.
My second winter I went in with 3 hives and all died. I did not have any ventilation because I assumed with all the snow, they needed heat more than ventilation. When I opened up the hives in early spring, it smelled like mead. I realize that statistically, this is an N=3, but it is my experience. What I mean to say is that I killed the bees with excess moisture, not cold.
Thank you elders for you thoughtful and instructive posts.
Bruce
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When I opened up the hives in early spring, it smelled like mead.
Maybe you got them drunk and they got in a wreck trying to get back to the cluster. He, he. :-D
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hive smell funky in spring. those dead on the bottom decay. you might also have had some fermented honey in there.
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Trot,
Thank you so much for all this great info! I’ve been using foam hives, but I do want to try to winter a hive or two in wood like you have described here so well. I will do that next winter.
I have a question about your candy board. You said earlier that you switched over to using a candy board and starting your bees right under it in the fall. They needed food over their heads, you said. That all made sense to me.
So my question is, did your candy board replace your inner cover? Did you notch a hole in the front of the candy board and is that what your bees are using for a top entrance?
Thanks.
Yes, candy board does replace the inner cover.
Yes I also cut the notch in to the rim/frame. They need top entrance regardless what one puts on top.
All that said, as soon the weather warms up the candy board are taken of, stored for next year and inner covers go back on, plus homasote and of course also the Styrofoam. I now keep Styrofoam on year round. It insulates against cold as well as against summer heat.
Regards,
trot
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If I understand this correct, candy boards lie on top "candy side down" right? For bottom access to candy right?. Do you use stples or nails through the sides to assure it from falling on top of bees. Help me with this candy board stuff. I've got some cut offs from deeps I cut down to mediums that might make good candy boards if I put covers on, use them to feed sugar now.
Up to this point I've only fed my bees syrup, fondant or dry sugar and honey when able. A "Candy" board is something else, right? More like a hard solid candy? Thanks.
thomas
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Thomas,
here is the link to one site where this is now explained to the world.
Instead of candy board he calls it sugar board.
One thing: Make 2 inch frame as shown in there and staple wire screen on and tap it down well with a hammer. Than cur a few pine strips. As wide as the material of the frame, usualy is 3/4". Cut this 3/8" thick and smudge some outdoor glue on it and nail it down on the perimeter of this frame - on top of the screen. Where you need the entrance, just cut the strip off and leave a gap - move over an inch or two and start again. That gap is than your top entrance.
When pouring candy, pour only up to the screen. Before you pour. Put a few bricks on the frame and place a few pieces of two by four or something ... to make sort of a fance. Put the wood under the plastic, tight to the frame. I find that sugar tends to leak all over the floor and makes a mess, costs money too...
When stuff cools off, over night, place this on the hive, screen/notch down of course... This should be done in the fall, cause doing it in cold of winter is hard on bees and opening a hive in winter will usualy do them in. At least that is what beeks report back to me.
Don't bother with candy in the frame. It is the same as the food that bees already have, but can't get to it. That is good for locales where is not cold and bees can move about - but is too cold for them to take regular sugar syrup. Where is cold the food has to be above their head. On top of cluster. In contact with the cluster, etc...
You mentioned about coming our way? Sure, door is open...
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/ (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/)
Regards,
Trot
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Very cool, thanks for the turn on Frank. Its just what I was asking for. Is that the same robo who's around here all the time? Didn't know he had his own site, which I've just added to my faves.
thanks again.
thomas
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Thank you for the candy board link and the I will need to make some of those honey frames before I get my nucs this spring.
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Thomas,
I went back over the posts and did find a Robo, but I don't know if it is the same one. If it is you would think that he would chime in and help when people asked for it?
I know that there are perhaps two more "Robo's" around. One is down under in Australia.
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Is that the same robo who's around here all the time? Didn't know he had his own site, which I've just added to my faves.
Yes.
FYI, if there is a little globe under a member's avatar, it is a link to their website.
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Hey, thanks for the heads up Robo. I brushed the mouse over the other icons and found their meaning too. As an administrator it would be nice if you or someone could place a topic on the main board explaining these navigation tools to the newbees. All forums have different icons for accomplishing the same task usually.
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or you could just play with the icons and figure them out? :evil:
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Good point Kathy, but I still have memories of sticking a bobby pin in an electrical outlet as a kid :-D
Maybe that explains a few things...... :)
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There is a decent introduction section that explains a lot about the forum under the HELP (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?action=help) function.
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or you could just play with the icons and figure them out?
If you knew they were there. Once you are on a site for a period of time you stumble across these things. If all you want is a click of old members it doesn't matter but if you want to attract new members it helps to make the site easy to use.
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There is a decent introduction section that explains a lot about the forum under the help function.
When I first came to the site I didn't see anything in there that described the icons or characters. There is a good library of acronyms that was helpful. Maybe I missed it somehow.
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As I say all the time, I'm lucky I can turn the thing on :) At least I've graduated a little, I used to say "computers make good door stops."
thomas
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Good point Kathy, but I still have memories of sticking a bobby pin in an electrical outlet as a kid
mine was putting my hand on the iron to see if it was REALLY hot. some of us are like that :evil:
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I've read this thread with interest, especially Trot's posts. He's evidently one of the few that have been keeping bees longer than I have, 53 years. I agree with most of what he says but on a few things I disagree.
Over the years I've kept bees in just about every imaginable way except extended extreme cold like Finland, Manitoba, Sekatchawn, and the Dakota's but have talked to several beekeepers who have.
Currently I'm keeping my bees in bottomless hives, with slated racks, and solid bottom boards inverted with the entrance reducer installed to 1/2 entrance as my hive tops. That is probably more ventilation per hive than anyone on this board is currently using. I've actually experienced less hive loss with this method than any other I've tried, but for practical reasons (moveability) I will be going back to SBB in the spring but retain the upside down bottom boards as tops. The bees will just have to adapt to the new door.
In my experience a lack of an upper vent/entrance will result in a hive that will be found to be damp inside, moldy combs, and lots of dead bees and more likely to be DOA come spring.
To answer an argument Kathyp raised about the snow melt from the top of the hive as proof that the bees heat the hive I must point out that the snow will melt faster from any roof of any size than it does from the ground or vegetation. If telescopic tops are used the tin skirt will absorb and reflect heat to will melt the snow from the hive top just as fast from a deadout as a live hive.
In my area, I have found that my Russian and Carnolian bees cluster at the top of the brood chamber after the 1st hard frost and seem to break cluster at those times of cleansing flights and will move honey stores from the outer reaches of the hive to the combs within the confines of the cluster. Italians don't seem to do this same thing (I've reviewed my notes on this subject) which is one of the major reasons I quit using Italian bees, the winter losses are just to high and the likelyhood of a complete apiary wipeout to frequent for the small scale beekeeper to justify keeping Italian bees in colder temperature areas other than personal prejudice of bee type.
One important factor I've found when examining the benefits/disadvantages of top vents/entrances on hives is that the venting must be designed into the the hive system to be effective, proping tops with sticks, drilling holes, or what ever are 1/2 way measures that produce 1/2 results. Dedicated top entrances or vents such as I use works well. Another method that works well for venting is to make the inner top frame out of 3/4X3/4 strips cover it with screen (door screen works) then use screen moulding to secure the screen and leave a gap on each side, this vent allows air flow across the top of the hive under the telescopic or migratory top.
I believe that for the Southeast United States, that have had extremely unusual cold spells and blizzards and where the bees are more than likely to hibernate for brief periods, if at all, that winter losses are going to be high this year because of those extreme cold periods and the fact that many hives are going to be found caught out of cluster when that type of weather occurred.
There's more but that's enough for now.
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One important factor I've found when examining the benefits/disadvantages of top vents/entrances on hives is that the venting must be designed into the the hive system to be effective, proping tops with sticks, drilling holes, or what ever are 1/2 way measures that produce 1/2 results. Dedicated top entrances or vents such as I use works well.
I would have to see a photo to make a judgement call on what is better. By definition a vent is a hole that releaves pressure. The only thing that makes sense to me is to not have the cold air pass across the brood. My problem is how do you know where the cluster will go so you know where the brood is?
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Brian D Bray: Thanks for your return and the more detailed explanation of your methods. I'll be looking forward to future postings and would also like to see some pics. Right now my top entrances are just shimmed, but I'm thinking of using "Trots inner-cover cut out method" as our weather is more similar. Thanks again.
thomas
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There is nothing complicated about upper entrance.
One simply cuts a notch in the rim of the cover. Cut it only to the 1/4" ply which is usualy set in a groove in the center, or there abouts, of the frame.
In old days, there was a smaller rim on one side and about twice as thick-a-rim on the other. One was for Summer use, other for Winter.
But, when one would flip it in winter mode, than entrance would be on top - which is wrong! Wrong for the simple reason that the air would than go through centre/feeding hole and out over the top and out. (Cross-draft)
Nowadays the inner cover is about 3/4" thick (not thick like the old ones) therefore is divided in 3 parts; 1/4" for plywood center and 1/4" for each rim. Simple.
One does not need to wory about location of the bees.
There is only one rule to remember.
Have your notch turned down at all times.
Have your upper entrance on the same side of hive as is the bottom entrance. Thus doing, no matter where the cluster locates, the air flow, so called chimney effect is always along the front wall of the hive and no cross-draft or any draft at all can reach your bees no matter what.
Thomas, throw the shims away, they are a pain in the but, more ways than one...
No matter who, what and how famous a beek may use them, they are no good.
For those who would want to get away from them, upper entrances, at other times of the year, (For the life off me I can't see why?) They can simply turn the cover upside down, or have a stick made, on a pin even, so it can be closed at a moments notice.
But, so affixed inner cover, closure on a pin is also a magnet for 'neighbouring kids' with ideas to close them and suffocate the hive... It has happened more than one would think...
Nation wide, upper entrance saves more hives than we can imagine. Often beeks don't even know that such a little cut in the top has saved their bacon... probably more than once a year - GUARANTEED !
Nuff said...
Regards,
Trot
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There is nothing complicated about upper entrance.
One simply cuts a notch in the rim of the cover. Cut it only to the 1/4" ply which is usualy set in a groove in the center, or there abouts, of the frame.
In old days, there was a smaller rim on one side and about twice as thick-a-rim on the other. One was for Summer use, other for Winter.
But, when one would flip it in winter mode, than entrance would be on top - which is wrong! Wrong for the simple reason that the air would than go through centre/feeding hole and out over the top and out. (Cross-draft)
Nowadays the inner cover is about 3/4" thick (not thick like the old ones) therefore is divided in 3 parts; 1/4" for plywood center and 1/4" for each rim. Simple.
but a lot of work to change all the bottoms from summer 3/4 inch opening to winter 3/8 inch opening. I build all of my equipment (tops & bottoms, screened or not) to the 3/4 inch entrance and then adjust that with reducers.
Have your upper entrance on the same side of hive as is the bottom entrance. Thus doing, no matter where the cluster locates, the air flow, so called chimney effect is always along the front wall of the hive and no cross-draft or any draft at all can reach your bees no matter what.
This is probably the most important part and the one I forgot to add, I thought of it, I just forgot to add it to my post.
Thomas, throw the shims away, they are a pain in the but, more ways than one...
No matter who, what and how famous a beek may use them, they are no good.
For those who would want to get away from them, upper entrances, at other times of the year, (For the life off me I can't see why?) They can simply turn the cover upside down, or have a stick made, on a pin even, so it can be closed at a moments notice.
Nation wide, upper entrance saves more hives than we can imagine. Often beeks don't even know that such a little cut in the top has saved their bacon... probably more than once a year - GUARANTEED !
Nuff said...
Regards,
Trot
To which I will add a hearty Amen.
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Of course you fellas know, I'll be following your advise. Thanks.
I don't think the conversion will be too problematic, especially once it WARMS UP ;)
thomas