Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: RHBee on May 18, 2013, 11:51:50 pm
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I have given up on painting. Time to apply, time to cure, time that could be used for other stuff. I'm building my own equipment from scratch. Top covers, inner covers, bottom oil traps, bodies, every thing but frames. Takes more time but saves quite a bit of money. With the money I'm saving I want to start dipping the equipment in wax/tree rosin. What I would appreciate would be some guidance on the initial start-up costs associated with it and a good supplier of the proper paraffin wax and rosin for the job. The tank is something I can make. I'm thinking a tank large enough to cycle 4 of the largest components at one time would be 30"-L X 24"-W X 40"-D. Of that I'm factoring in a foot of free board for foaming. That works out to about 90 gallons of mixture in the tank give or take. I was going to build it out of 1/4" plate and fit the rig with heavy duty casters for mobility.
Anyway, That's the plan. Some guidance and information would be appreciated. Vendors for needed mixture components, Construction ideas, personal experiences all appreciated. Hands down this looks like the quickest approach to wood preservation. It also has the added bonus of hive sterilization seeing that the temps needed to get the proper soak and wood penetration are pretty high. Just makes sense for the growing apiary. Thanks in advance for the help.
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paint sprayers don't cost that much. ;) as for cure time, 2 hours or less between coats and use them the next day. doesn't seem that bad?
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paint sprayers don't cost that much. ;) as for cure time, 2 hours or less between coats and use them the next day. doesn't seem that bad?
I thought about that. Actually looked at one in Lowes. I guess if I use exterior latex it would speed up the coating process considerably. If the costs for wax and the rig are to great I'll have to reconsider my plan. Kathy I really like the idea of the ability to sterilize and seal equipment interior.
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,,,I guess if I use exterior latex it would speed up the coating process considerably.
what are you currently using? oil base? If so, why? Clean up alone makes that a nightmare. Not to mention, with advances in Latex paint and restrictions on the oil base paints, everything I hear now is that the latex is every bit as good.
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Go Moots, Latex, nothing else will touch it. :) d2
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,,,I guess if I use exterior latex it would speed up the coating process considerably.
what are you currently using? oil base? If so, why? Clean up alone makes that a nightmare. Not to mention, with advances in Latex paint and restrictions on the oil base paints, everything I hear now is that the latex is every bit as good.
Moots, Yeah oil based is what I currently use. The reason is simply put durability. As for clean up, not really a problem. I use throw away equipment, a cheap 3" roller and cheaper brushes. This paint dries hard I haven't heard that latex could even come close to the oil based paints. I thought that latex always stays in the rubber stage. If I'm building something I want it to last. I'll do some looking at the specs for latex exterior. My information could be a little dated, I'm an electrician not a painter. :)
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No paint will last forever. I put 3 coats on new wood, then a coat every 3 to 5 years. Stack your boxes about 6 ft. high, all the same size of course, in an area where you can walk around the stack, start at the top. this prevents runs. if you have three stacks, the first will be dry enough to put a second coat on by the time you finish the third stack. One to two hours to paint 15 to 25 or more boxes, use the next day. Use a water hose to spray the brush out I don't use the traditional bee hive white. Bull frog green or beige is another good color. or medium/light brown. Lowe's or any other place that sales paint will mix any color you want. :) d2
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personally I use what ever I can get My hands on. I have over 35 gals of Thompson grey fence paint and another 40 gals of mixed colors of enamel paint. and I use cheap cheap brushes and rollers and the occasional electric sprayer. the paint I got all for free :) form a store that closed and didn't want to pay to have the paint disposed of .
John
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yup. i buy oops latex paint or i get the latex from the recycle place. slop it on and go.
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everything I hear now is that the latex is every bit as good.
Evidently you haven’t been listening again. :laugh:
I thought that latex always stays in the rubber stage.
You are correct. Latex doesn’t last as long as Enamel, but it breaths which can be a good thing when there is water vapor trying to escape. For foam hives I use enamel, but I do use latex for the woodies.
There’s a big difference between painting a hive or two and painting 50. It is a lot of work without a sprayer. I hate painting too. I haven’t discovered a great solution yet. Maybe dip the hives in a barrel of paint? :-D That's how they put primer on autos.
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everything I hear now is that the latex is every bit as good.
Evidently you haven’t been listening again. :laugh:
I thought that latex always stays in the rubber stage.
You are correct. Latex doesn’t last as long as Enamel, but it breaths which can be a good thing when there is water vapor trying to escape. For foam hives I use enamel, but I do use latex for the woodies.
There’s a big difference between painting a hive or two and painting 50. It is a lot of work without a sprayer. I hate painting too. I haven’t discovered a great solution yet. Maybe dip the hives in a barrel of paint? :-D That's how they put primer on autos.
Problem with that is you end up painting the inside which the girls some times don't like at all and they will leave.
John
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I want to start dipping the equipment in wax/tree rosin. What I would appreciate would be some guidance on the initial start-up costs associated with it and a good supplier of the proper paraffin wax and rosin for the job. The tank is something I can make. I'm thinking a tank large enough to cycle 4 of the largest components at one time would be 30"-L X 24"-W X 40"-D. Of that I'm factoring in a foot of free board for foaming. That works out to about 90 gallons of mixture in the tank give or take. I was going to build it out of 1/4" plate and fit the rig with heavy duty casters for mobility.
Anyway, That's the plan. Some guidance and information would be appreciated. Vendors for needed mixture components, Construction ideas, personal experiences all appreciated. Hands down this looks like the quickest approach to wood preservation. It also has the added bonus of hive sterilization seeing that the temps needed to get the proper soak and wood penetration are pretty high. Just makes sense for the growing apiary. Thanks in advance for the help.
Back to the original question. I'm looking to trade money for quick and easy. Redipping gives the benefit of a clean slate. I've read a document from down under that states that the wax/rosin solution along with the high temperature effectively sanitizes the equipment.
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everything I hear now is that the latex is every bit as good.
Evidently you haven’t been listening again. :laugh:
Phew- Thank god,blue is here...the guy that knows EVERYTHING about.EVERYTHING...or, at least thinks he does. :laugh:
Blue wants to always talk investments. Here's a GREAT investment tip...Figure out a way to buy Blue for what he's worth and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.
Anyone able to do this could retire comfortably..QUITE COMFORTABLY! :lau:
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I was helper for a paint crew and was told oil base for metal only after a specific primer was added for specific metal surfaces. latex for wood always! All wood must breathe and expand, dued to moisture, latex allows this to happen. As for oil base paint will crack upon expansion. I did my job for about two years and those were the rules of Wyatt Painting Co., a big outfit where I am located, not saying this is correct, just saying it worked for them :). Also FYI Latex is not good on metal because metal gets hot and will cause paint to bubble, this I am certain of because I have made the mistake before :roll:. I would invest in a sprayer before the other, because for me space is minimum and valuable in my bee shop. Just my opinion.
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Now boys keep it civil. :-*
dipping boxes is great but very very expensive and time consuming. to get the wax to the proper temp takes a good day to do it and when it gets there it is very explosive. so be protected when doing it. second the investment in the equipment and the amounts of wax needed to do it. unless you plan to get into pollinating or selling it really is not cost effective. it is good at disinfecting but against AFB the torch or destruction is the only true way to go. all other problems the bees will seal off with propulus.
just my two cents worth.
John
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Phew- Thank god,blue is here...the guy that knows EVERYTHING about.EVERYTHING...or, at least thinks he does. :laugh:
Blue wants to always talk investments. Here's a GREAT investment tip...Figure out a way to buy Blue for what he's worth and sell him for what he thinks he's worth.
Anyone able to do this could retire comfortably..QUITE COMFORTABLY! :lau:
Wow Moots. That wasn't very nice. I usually reserve that kind of stuff for people I'm trying to piss off. Really now, I value all input. I did some looking into the exterior latex/paint sprayer route. Would really cut down the prep time. Still has to be redone every 3 years or so. Dipping can last a decade or more if what I'm reading is correct.
I was helper for a paint crew and was told oil base for metal only after a specific primer was added for specific metal surfaces. latex for wood always! All wood must breathe and expand, dued to moisture, latex allows this to happen. As for oil base paint will crack upon expansion. I did my job for about two years and those were the rules of Wyatt Painting Co., a big outfit where I am located, not saying this is correct, just saying it worked for them :). Also FYI Latex is not good on metal because metal gets hot and will cause paint to bubble, this I am certain of because I have made the mistake before :roll:. I would invest in a sprayer before the other, because for me space is minimum and valuable in my bee shop. Just my opinion.
Thanks BAH, that does mean that I was doing it wrong. Wrong paint for the application. Like I said, I'm an electrician. :-D Learning all the time. You have to wear a lot of different kinds of hats to be a keeper.
Now boys keep it civil. :-*
dipping boxes is great but very very expensive and time consuming. to get the wax to the proper temp takes a good day to do it and when it gets there it is very explosive. so be protected when doing it. second the investment in the equipment and the amounts of wax needed to do it. unless you plan to get into pollinating or selling it really is not cost effective. it is good at disinfecting but against AFB the torch or destruction is the only true way to go. all other problems the bees will seal off with propulus.
just my two cents worth.
John
Thanks John, I'll continue to research the whole thing. It may be just another idea that initially looks good but then after further scrutiny isn't all that good.
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Hi beeks!
Like a lot of us its really time consuming painting. I'm going to get a wax dipper and would like photos.
A picture speaks a thoasand words!
Cheers
Ben
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make your hives out of cedar and forget about all of it, or one of these woods if in your area:
Baldcypress (old growth)
Catalpa (yes catalpa)
Cherry, black
Chestnut
Cypress, Arizona
Junipers
Locust, black
Mulberry, red
Oak, bur
Oak, chestnut
Oak, Gambel
Oak, Oregon white
Oak, post
Oak, white
Osage-orange3
Redwood
Sassafras
Walnut, black
Yew, Pacific
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I am trying " ECO" wood preservative . You buy it in powder form and mix it with water. Not too expensive. It is supposed to be friendly to the environment. You can brush it , spray it , or dip it. Cures to a light brown .Simple water cleanup. If it's half as good as advertised it should outlast me.
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>I'm thinking a tank large enough to cycle 4 of the largest components at one time would be 30"-L X 24"-W X 40"-D.
I'd say 24" by 20" by 24" (deep) will work fine to hold three deeps (one on end in the middle).
>Of that I'm factoring in a foot of free board for foaming.
4" will do. A foot is far more than you need, but if you want to allow a foot, then you'd need to make it 36" deep. 30" would be plenty...
> I was going to build it out of 1/4" plate and fit the rig with heavy duty casters for mobility.
1/4" is more than you need. 1/8" would do. You do need a VERY good joint, of course as it has to hold liquid wax...
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I am trying " ECO" wood preservative . You buy it in powder form and mix it with water. Not too expensive. It is supposed to be friendly to the environment.
Sounds worth looking into. Thanks.
>I'm thinking a tank large enough to cycle 4 of the largest components at one time would be 30"-L X 24"-W X 40"-D.
I'd say 24" by 20" by 24" (deep) will work fine to hold three deeps (one on end in the middle).
>Of that I'm factoring in a foot of free board for foaming.
4" will do. A foot is far more than you need, but if you want to allow a foot, then you'd need to make it 36" deep. 30" would be plenty...
> I was going to build it out of 1/4" plate and fit the rig with heavy duty casters for mobility.
1/4" is more than you need. 1/8" would do. You do need a VERY good joint, of course as it has to hold liquid wax...
Michael I tend to over-build everything. Once it's assembled it won't matter much. I need a line on the raw materials. The proper wax and rosin.I checked out the matetial on your site, your comments seem positive.
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Resin:
http://catalog.pcchem.com/item/paint-coatings-ink-adhesive-and-sealant-chemicals/ink-resins/item-1874 (http://catalog.pcchem.com/item/paint-coatings-ink-adhesive-and-sealant-chemicals/ink-resins/item-1874)
You can buy paraffin from the local craft stores usually for cheaper than you can mail order after shipping...
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I also hate painting and would rather spend an evening dipping 10 supers than painting them only to have the paint chip, peel or have the wood rot out under the paint. This is not the best, but it can get you into wax dipping for the small beekeeper for less money, just takes more of your time. You can do only one side at a time...2 mediums or 1 deep at a time.
The pan is available through any commercial food service supply house ..about $150. (it will cover 4 burners so it is about the size of a normal home stove top). http://www.webstaurantstore.com/vollrath-wear-ever-68391-heavy-duty-aluminum-roast-pan/92268391.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/vollrath-wear-ever-68391-heavy-duty-aluminum-roast-pan/92268391.html) 15 to 20 pounds of wax/rosin is all that is needed to fill the pan deep enough to cover one side at a time. I have a commercial kitchen so I can work under a hood. Once heated one burner keeps the wax hot enough without over heating. It could easily be set up outside with a propane burner like you use for a turkey fryer. You would obviously need a good solid base for the pan to rest on.
Jim
(http://s17.postimg.org/6mga9hs5n/wax_dipping_hives_013.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6mga9hs5n/)
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why wouldn't you dip before you assemble the box, and just space the boards out on a rack? then simply make up a metal box either long or tall enough for the wood to sit in to do multiple boxes at once?
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why wouldn't you dip before you assemble the box, and just space the boards out on a rack? then simply make up a metal box either long or tall enough for the wood to sit in to do multiple boxes at once?
Cause the glue won't stick.
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Grandpa Jim that looks like it works fine. I just want something bigger. Where do you buy your rosin and wax?
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I want to get something bigger too, but for now it works.
I got the rosin from "Just Rosin!"... http://www.amberpinerosin.com/just-rosin-16-30-lbs-amber-pine-gum-rosin-chunks-flakes-4-75-lb/ (http://www.amberpinerosin.com/just-rosin-16-30-lbs-amber-pine-gum-rosin-chunks-flakes-4-75-lb/)
I own a banquet facility and groups use candles for their functions but only burn half the candle. I end up with lots of candle stubs and they are free...can't beat that.
I have thought of boiling the hives before assembly, would save some time but not sure how they would hold without the glue. Will have to try some and see.
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why wouldn't you dip before you assemble the box, and just space the boards out on a rack? then simply make up a metal box either long or tall enough for the wood to sit in to do multiple boxes at once?
Cause the glue won't stick.
well now that would indeed explain it then. thanks for that.
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Cause the glue won't stick.
At what temperature will the glue start to melt ???
Michael Bush
"heated to between 230 and 250 F. At 250 the boxes cook nicely (like deep fat frying them) in about six to eight minutes. At 230, they take more like 10 to 12 minutes."
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdipping.htm)
I say if your glue will not stand up to this heat. :roll:
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Cause the glue won't stick.
At what temperature will the glue start to melt ???
I say if your glue will not stand up to this heat. :roll:
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Jim, I thought he was talking about waxing the components before assembly. I guess I shouldn't have answered so bluntly. I honestly have never tried to wax then glue. I rationalized that if the purpose of the wax is to seal the wood fibers against moisture and the purpose of the glue is to penetrate the wood fiber to create a bond. So, the wax would prevent the glue from doing what it has to do so:
The glue won't stick.
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If you assembly first (with glue) and then dip in hot wax you will melt the glue out.
If you dip in hot wax unassembled glue will not stick to it the either will paint.
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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For anyone interested I was able to find these sources for the raw materials. I'm not sure that they are the lowest cost but they supply in quantities I can deal with.
For Rosin: http://www.amberpinerosin.com/ (http://www.amberpinerosin.com/)
For Microcrystalline Wax: http://www.candlewic.com/default.asp (http://www.candlewic.com/default.asp)
Now I have to design my tank. I saw one on youtube that incorporated a hinged lid that also holds the equipment below the wax level. I like the design.
Here is a link for a PDF document that explains the process. I hope this helps someone who is interested in this coating process. http://www.queenrightcolonies.com/uploads/HotWaxDippingofBeehives.pdf (http://www.queenrightcolonies.com/uploads/HotWaxDippingofBeehives.pdf)
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I wonder if one couldn't just make a tank out of sheet metal in the shape of like a figure eight, 10" tall that would hold two deeps? this would save on having to fill them so much, surely right, since the middle would be empty? or what about simply putting in solid bricks in a larger square tank to take up the middle space? I seen a video where someone dips their box boards in this green stuff. (copper napalate with diesel fuel) Beekeeping,Treating wood Beehive boxes,tops,bottoms.Beekeepers Bee hives preservation wood rot stop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap7XlTDFu74#)
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http://www.jhcalo.com/ (http://www.jhcalo.com/)
Just received a quote from the above company for Brazilian gum rosin. They are located in NY. Came in at $1.75/lb for 250lbs. I'd save $500.00 over Just Rosin who charges $3.75/lb and is located on the west coast. Who knows how much I would save in shipping cost.
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Sry i did'nt take the time to read all of the post so this may have been mentioned... You said you use oil base at the present time. Oil base paints are not made for exterior applications as the properties of oil promote mold and fungus growth in an exterior enviroment. There are a few latex paints on the market that will give the same shell like apperance as an oil base. I use plain old Gripper Primer from Home Depot and apply it with a Paint sprayer. Never had enough boxes in front of me to give you a hive body per hour, (lol) but i know i could prime every wall and ceiling in a 2600 sq. ft. house before lunch on a bad day.... If you have that many hive bodies and parts, then by time you got finished with the first coat you could move right on to the second... Good luck on whatever route you go
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>why wouldn't you dip before you assemble the box, and just space the boards out on a rack?
I tried it and it was more trouble that it was worth. I'm not saying you couldn't come up with a practical method, but when I bound them together the wax didn't flow between, and when I tried to bundle them with spacers it was very difficult to pull off. It was easier to just nail them together and then dip them...
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someone dips their box boards in this green stuff. (copper napalate with diesel fuel)
A paper on the relative safety of copper naphthenate is available: http://128.104.77.228/documnts/pdf1984/kalni84a.pdf (http://128.104.77.228/documnts/pdf1984/kalni84a.pdf)
Less than 1 ppm of Cu is added to honey and wax using the Cu preservative. The paper does caution on using fuel oil as the diluting agent, as it does migrate into the hive. Paper is older (in that Penta and other bad things were still on the market), but appears to be very responsibly researched.
My boxes are highly rot-resistant redwood and latex. (Redwood fence boards converted to mediums)
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My boxes are highly rot-resistant redwood and latex. (Redwood fence boards converted to mediums)
Redwood is nice. A bit brittle, but it's light, and as you mention, rot resistant. It machines well, too. If ever I were to make mediums out of 2x material, it'd be redwood.
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I used to make wooden decks for folks out of redwood but couldn't guarantee them. Redwood rots just as quick as pine down here. Cedar's a bit better but not by much.
Scott
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someone dips their box boards in this green stuff. (copper napalate with diesel fuel)
A paper on the relative safety of copper naphthenate is available: http://128.104.77.228/documnts/pdf1984/kalni84a.pdf (http://128.104.77.228/documnts/pdf1984/kalni84a.pdf)
Less than 1 ppm of Cu is added to honey and wax using the Cu preservative. The paper does caution on using fuel oil as the diluting agent, as it does migrate into the hive. Paper is older (in that Penta and other bad things were still on the market), but appears to be very responsibly researched.
My boxes are highly rot-resistant redwood and latex. (Redwood fence boards converted to mediums)
ya from the article: "Few, if any, adverse findings resulted from treatments
of beehives with (1) a preservative-free water-repellent
solution, (2) copper naphthenate, (3) copper 8-
quinolinolate, and (4) ACC. Winter survival with these
treatments was better than or comparable to that in controls. Of these four treatments, only copper naphthenate
gave a slight increase in copper content of honey (less than
1 ppm)"
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someone dips their box boards in this green stuff. (copper napalate with diesel fuel)
A paper on the relative safety of copper naphthenate is available: http://128.104.77.228/documnts/pdf1984/kalni84a.pdf (http://128.104.77.228/documnts/pdf1984/kalni84a.pdf)
Less than 1 ppm of Cu is added to honey and wax using the Cu preservative. The paper does caution on using fuel oil as the diluting agent, as it does migrate into the hive. Paper is older (in that Penta and other bad things were still on the market), but appears to be very responsibly researched.
My boxes are highly rot-resistant redwood and latex. (Redwood fence boards converted to mediums)
ya from the article: "Few, if any, adverse findings resulted from treatments
of beehives with (1) a preservative-free water-repellent
solution, (2) copper naphthenate, (3) copper 8-
quinolinolate, and (4) ACC. Winter survival with these
treatments was better than or comparable to that in controls. Of these four treatments, only copper naphthenate
gave a slight increase in copper content of honey (less than
1 ppm)"
WOW! The paper referenced was written in 1984....That's nearly 30 years ago...Personally, not sure I would put a whole lot of stock in it!
I did a little research on copper naphthenate since I had a friend that was using it to treat his equipment and it struck me as a bad idea. A fairly quick search lead me to a couple of interesting facts. First, I found out that it's against the law to use it to treat bee equipment in the State of Alabama. Second, I read about some bee guru that had published a book or paper on raising bees around 1994 in which he suggested treating wooden ware with copper naphthenate. He later said if he could go back and change one thing about that publication, it would be to remove that recommendation. He said unfortunately many people still use it as a reference but the practice has since been proven to be bad for the bees and something that he would no longer recommend.
I didn't dig much further...those two pieces of info were enough for me to confirm my initial skepticism on the practice...
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This doesn't answer the OP's question, but for those researching what to put on their hives, I use Cabot 3000 deck stain. It goes on easy, looks great, is very UV and water resistant, and is easy to just splash on some more in a few years when it needs recoating. Not cheap, though, but for my couple-handful of hives it has worked great.
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hot wax dipping; see for these two an overview:
Dipping of beehives components in hot wax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UUJT8ooVE#ws)
Beehive Wax Dipping (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWHiHv3C4Vk#ws)
Just got my stainless steel vat completed here; one component at a time. Start up costs $750 ($200 is for shp) for wax(s)
L = 24” x W = 18-1/4” x H = (9-5/8 + 9”) for headspace aka frothing so a Maximum Height of 18-5/8
Wax(s)- Strahl & Pitsch in NY http://www.spwax.com/spparaff.htm (http://www.spwax.com/spparaff.htm)
The Micro-crystaline only needs to be 30% of your mixture 70% paraffin.
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Ok, just wanted to post my choice. It's paint. Reason, it's known to me, so easier. I will be doing it a bit differently. First, easier startup, equipment is available almost every where. I'm going with the airless sprayer. Stick the suction in a 5gal bucket and let her rip. Gonna use exterior latex. Just get it done.
Thannks for all the replies. I really appreciate your help in this.
Ray
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All boxes gets sprayed. I go to lowes and but the opps paint . I make sure its latex exterior. Dump the gallons in a 5 gal bucket to mix up. Go to harbor fright and pick up a 9.00 airless electric sprayer lay out a large blue tarp . At harbor fright theh have those wheeled wooden carts I place the boxes 6 high on the wheeled cart and wheel them on the tarp and sprqy them. Wheel them off and wheel the next set on.. done! Them I toss the sprqyer..
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
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Go to harbor fright and pick up a 9.00 airless electric sprayer. Them I toss the sprqyer..
Kinda went the other way on the sprayer. Titan 440e, light commercial.
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WOW! The paper referenced was written in 1984....That's nearly 30 years ago...Personally, not sure I would put a whole lot of stock in it!
There's nothing wrong with research of that age, or even earlier ... A lot of modern research is of a very poor standard, both as a result of funding bias, and the dubious quality of those modern graduates who engage in it.
On the subject of glues allegedly 'melting': why not simply use temperature-resistant glues such as epoxy ?
JB Weld (admittedly exceptional in both quality and price) is well-known for it's ability to withstand a constant temperature of 260 C (500 F), but most common-or-garden epoxies are good for 200 C (392 F), which should be more than adequate for your purposes.
LJ
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I nailed and glued the wedges on my tops before dipping and non came loose. I used exterior Titebond carpenter's glue.
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If no treatments are done how long will unpainted pine supers last?
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>If no treatments are done how long will unpainted pine supers last?
It depends on your climate.
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If no treatments are done how long will unpainted pine supers last?
>If no treatments are done how long will unpainted pine supers last?
It depends on your climate.
Fungus causes wood rot. Fungus spores multiply best in warm moist climates.
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You might as well get used to it. Or hire a neighbor kid.