Bottomless Frames

[BlueBee]

For those of you using foundationless frames, what purpose is the bottom bar serving? 

I started using some foundationless frames this summer and the bees didn’t attach the comb to the bottom.  So now I wondering, why not just leave the bottom bar off in the first place?  What am I missing?

[windfall]

They attach to some...maybe half of mine so far.

Even if they didn't, the bottom bar assures constant spacing along side bars to hive, as well as stiffening and strengthening the whole assembly.

I suppose they also assure beespace between the frames in stacked boxes and reduce any tendency to run the combs together. I know the bees don't like to attach combs to the bottom of the hive, but higher up...??? This is probably their most important function now that I think about it

[Michael Bush]

It creates the beespace between the boxes.

[BlueBee]

I have just played with foundationless this summer, but what ended up in my hives was double bee spaces between the boxes.  One bee space below the bottom bar and one bee space above the bottom bar!

I’m wondering if I just leave that bottom bar off, rather or not the bees would maintain a single bee space gap between the comb above and the box below?

[mikecva]

I just thought it was there to maintain the integrity of the frame so it does not warp or twist. My bees connect to it only about a third of the time (I thought it helped them keep the comb in place. I will need to email my bees and see what they have to say. :lau:   -Mike

[Finski]

What am I missing?

not all but almost

bees use to make burr between top and lover bar.
Last summer I had lack of Langstroth frames. i many box I put medium frames in langstroth box. I forgot change them, and bad sruprise waited me in Autumn.

[Michael Bush]

Foundationless has been around for centuries.  The time proven solution to the double gap is to put the nails in the bottom bar but leave it down 3/8" of an inch and wait until it's drawn, you can then push the nails the rest of the way in and move the bar up to the comb.  Of course if you forget it for too long the bottom bar will be glued to the top bar below it.  I'm too lazy.  They will fill it in eventually.

[T Beek]

I went with foundationless and all mediums around the same time about 4 years ago, which gave me several unusable deep frames (and supers).  Since I also had a Top Bar hive at the time and was interested in building Long Hives I simply cut the bottoms off the deep frames and used them for my Long Hive (also fits mediums).  

They are still working just fine.  

Sometimes a few might get stuck to bottom (I modified an old bread knife for this purpose) but for the most part the bees keep it open along the entire bottom.  So, don't throw them out, use them.  

That all said, I wouldn't use them in a Lang, that'd be asking for trouble ;).  What BlueBee was missing is that w/out frame bottoms on a Lang set up, comb would be connected from top to bottom w/in hive.  

No 'frame bottom' no separation of comb, big mess.

thomas

[Tommyt]

Are any of you using wire in either direction?
I have not but was thinking it would help
I also have considered standing popsicle sticks
up from bottom

[Michael Bush]

I have done "guides" on the bottom and they do help, but they aren't necessary.  They will eventually fill them in.

[T Beek]

Are any of you using wire in either direction?
I have not but was thinking it would help
I also have considered standing popsicle sticks
up from bottom

I don't, but I started with frames containing mostly drawn comb that I cut down from Deeps, using the sides as well, very strong with comb filling out the entire area.  My Long hive is still using 2/3 of these bottomless frames, the rest being medium foundationless (w/ bottoms) frames mixed in.  

With Long Hives it is quite important to LEVEL hive box as perfectly as possible, which certainly must assist in keeping things neat and tidy.  That and keeping frames tight, always tight.

I think using medium frames in general (in most any hive set up) allows a beek to eliminate wire from frames (unless you're doing a cut out of course), at least I've never had one collapse :).  Not sure how one would incorporate wire in a foundationless system, that's a new one by me.

thomas

[BlueBee]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. 

I think I’ll keep a bar on my bottoms after reading this.  Probably going to make up some more foundationless frames this winter.

[Jim134]

BlueBee...


   Do you use all med ?


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[BlueBee]

Jim, I have been using mediums, 10 in a box, for my honey supers but using larger combs for my brood.

I’m now thinking of switching over to shallow honey supers over my larger brood combs to cut down on the wear and tear of my back.

I might use my old mediums to set up some 8 frame all medium hives like Michael Bush promotes. I haven’t tried that configuration yet.

[Jim134]

   I would try put medium frames to be drawn out in a deep box the bee may go past the bottom bars after cut the burr comb off frame in put in to a  medium box.Just my $0.02
 

<I have been using mediums, 10 in a box>

   for me 1985 to now all mediums glad I did at   


   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[T Beek]

Jim 134;  That's very good advise Jim, and a required maneuvere/manipulation for the process of going from deeps to mediums (or shallows).

thomas

[Finski]

Jim 134;  That's very good advise Jim, and a required maneuvere/manipulation for the process of going from deeps to mediums (or shallows).

thomas

put the frame on table saw and run it to proper dimension.

[Jim134]

Why are you using a table saw ??? on the frame they are the proper dimension. The box  are not. Just my $0.02 

 You thing to get the bees to attach the comb to the bottom bar of the frame.



   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)  

[T Beek]

Yeah table saws and frames (full of wax)?  Not a good mix.  Better wear protective gear :-D

thomas