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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 07:24:35 am

Title: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 07:24:35 am
This spring I caught a swarm of wild bees that were pretty aggressive and have been raising them since.  Everytime I get stung by these honey bees I have to go to the emergency room, when I get stung with any of my other bees from all of my other hives it is like a misquito bite.  I have had honey bees since I was very young, my dad still raises them also.  Whenever my shadow comes across the entrance, they attack.  Whenever I open the cover, they attack, even with smoke.  I have never had a hive like this one before!  They come out like a basketball size and sting, they will follow me around the whole house!  I thought maybe a skunk was getting them angry, I trap for skunks, no skunks.  Today I have to destroy the hive, it is too dangerous around the children and myself.  I will send some dead ones to cornell to see if they can tell what kind they are.  I think maybe a crossbread with african because they are so aggressive.  Any thoughts?  Thanks, Country :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: lenape13 on August 24, 2010, 07:46:15 am
You could have re-queened which would probably have calmed them down after a month.  You could still do it.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: gardeningfireman on August 24, 2010, 08:19:40 am
Are you sure they aren't yellow jackets or hornets? :-D
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Jim134 on August 24, 2010, 08:29:50 am
You can send the bees to    


United States Department Agriculture in MD.

Bee Research Laboratory
Bldg. 476, BARC-East
Beltsville, MD 20705
(301) 504-8821


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/directs.htm (http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/directs.htm)

http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/highlights.htm (http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/highlights.htm)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: FRAMEshift on August 24, 2010, 09:22:47 am
You are right to kill them.  Those are dangerous bees and in the time it would take to requeen and replace the existing workers, someone could get killed or seriously injured.  By acting now you are preventing the possible swarming of the hive (if they are africanized, they probably swarm frequently).  You aren't losing much.  You have the comb and honey produced by the hive and you can use that to much better advantage with some calmer bees.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on August 24, 2010, 09:55:32 am
Africanized bees are already mixed. 

It's true that if one can take the waiting, re-queening will eliminate that issue as well.  If there is a public safety issue as the bees are in a space that is routinely and regularly accessed by people though, sometimes it is best to eliminate them instead.

Big Bear
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on August 24, 2010, 10:17:06 am
Africanized bees in New York though?
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: L Daxon on August 24, 2010, 11:08:49 am
Africanized bees in New York though?

My thoughts exactly.  I didn't think they had gotten that far north.  Attached is the USDA link (about a year old) that shows their range in the US and they are no where near New York.   
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6 (http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: D Coates on August 24, 2010, 11:49:53 am
AHB, formally in New York?  No.  However, when you consider, 1) the migratory beeks who travel to and from AHB territory, 2) the queens that are sold and transported north (to commercial and hobby beekeepers) from areas that have AHBs, 3) cut outs, 4) swarm captures and 5)open breeding, there's simply no way to avoid that there are AHB genes in almost all the bees in the US.

Anyone who thinks there are no AHB genes in there neck of the woods is whistling past the graveyard.  They're there, is this what's causing the hive to be overly aggressive?  Who knows, but anytime there's a queen who shows aggression that's above and beyond the rest of my hives I make sure to re-queen that hive ASAP.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: BjornBee on August 24, 2010, 12:58:47 pm
They already have had confirmed cases of AHB over wintering in Ohio, New York, and Maine.

Yes, they swarm to the point that they probably will not have enough to survive a long winter here in the north, left to their own devices.

But bring them up on flatbed truck, or through queens and packages, and then provide them a nice hive with 80 pounds of honey, and they over winter very nicely.

The map that is mentioned means nothing as to where AHB are, other than perhaps letting beekeeper know where and where not, they should be buying bees. It's one thing to understand that AHB will survive in any hive that a beekeeper does not requeen when nasty. Feral AHB in the north many not get a foothold beyond beekeeper ignorance. Feral colonies will probably die out until they adapt, which I'm hoping will be many years.  But it is another entire circumstance understanding that AHB in feral colonies in the south make for a larger problem for breeders and beekeepers alike. And the passing of AHB is a real possibility.

I think there are probably positive traits to AHB that hopefully in the future we may benefit from But in an industry that had to cease the USDA's program with the Russian program due to a lack of funding, I see no real possibility of a large scale program that may be needed to coordinate and breed long term beneficial AHB bees. So it will be left to nature's slow progression, possibly a few dedicated beekeepers efforts. We will be left with advocates for and against AHB bees and the never ending discussions until every bees is leveled out in the genetic matter we have. Some will state that they are harmless and some will raise red flags with every AHB discussion.

For perspective, since the introduction of AHB in the U.S., there has been less than one death per year attributed to AHB incidents. Better chance of being struck by lightening. But those deaths have always been where AHB have been already found or just discovered. So there is some truth to agression, etc.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 06:14:38 pm
Thank you all!  If I go catch some in a jar can you tell?
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 06:42:42 pm
I called cornell, they closed at 2 today.  I called the listed NY state inspector that was on cornells site, he hasn't done it in a long time.  Just want someone to inspect them to see what they are before I destroy them.  Country :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: hardwood on August 24, 2010, 07:11:26 pm
As much as hate to hear myself say it...if they are a threat to your heath, or anyone else's for that matter you only have two choices...requeen or exterminate! If they had sent me to the E.R. they would've been gone by the next day.

Let's see...my life vs. a hot hive....I'll take me any day.

Scott
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 07:30:52 pm
My dad just moved the hive over to his place up on the hill so it is miles away from people.  Just want it checked before I destroy it or they swarm.  Country :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Highlandsfreedom on August 24, 2010, 07:53:46 pm
Couldn't you put a queen excluder under the bottom deep to keep them from swarming?  That would buy you some more time wouldn't it?  I like the re-queening idea if they are along way away from people. 
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: AllenF on August 24, 2010, 07:55:38 pm
I had a hot hive one time.  Took a blow torch to them and knocked down their numbers to requeen.  (and it felt good)   They were a second generation all star/ buckfast mix.   That is why they were mean.    I would go buy a queen if I were you.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: hardwood on August 24, 2010, 08:03:00 pm
Highlands, The queen "includer" works well but is not practical for more than a day. The drones still need to "cleanse" and you wouldn't want to invite nosema.

Scott
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Kathyp on August 24, 2010, 08:19:37 pm
if you want to keep it, why don't you split it into nucs in the spring and kill that queen.  either let them requeen or order queens for the nuc.  if you don't want to mess with them anymore....and i wouldn't blame you, just kill it off and start a new hive.

requeening earlier would have been a good thing to try.  they are pesky at this time of the year anyway, so a hot hive can be even worse to deal with.  if you can find a queen to order you can knock off the old queen now and requeen.  see how they are in spring.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 09:07:43 pm
I cannot open the hive, I go to emergency room.  Just curious what breed of bees ya know, curiousity.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Highlandsfreedom on August 24, 2010, 09:25:20 pm
Curiosity killed the cat..... ok ok a bad pun....
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 24, 2010, 09:28:58 pm
 :-D  Good thing I'm not a cat... but a cat had nine lives! Country :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on August 25, 2010, 09:41:44 am
My dad just moved the hive over to his place up on the hill so it is miles away from people.  Just want it checked before I destroy it or they swarm.  Country :)

How did that work out then?
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 25, 2010, 06:37:38 pm
The hive already had a reducer on it, so he covered the entrance of the reducer with triple expanding foam in a can :-D  They couldn't come out till he opened it when it was moved on the hill.  He used a rachet strap from top to bottom so that the 3 deep supers wouldn't come apart and he loaded it in his 4 wheel drive truck and a way he went! :-D  Amazing man my dad is :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: fish_stix on August 25, 2010, 06:51:56 pm
Countrybee; there is no visible difference between AHB and Italian bees. The only way to confirm AHB is with a lab analysis. Supposedly AHB are slightly smaller, but not discernible with the naked eye. You must send a sample of about 50 bees preserved in alcohol to the USDA lab in Beltsville, MD or to a state university which is qualified to do the testing. Chances are, based on your location, you just have a hot hive, but it won't hurt to get them tested. If you can't gather the sample yourself get another local beek to help.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 25, 2010, 06:54:58 pm
Thanks fish_stix
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 25, 2010, 07:22:59 pm
Does anyone know how I can buy a queen to fix the "hot" hive?  I have emailed everyone but no one is responding, maybe they don't need money.  They must only work on weekends?   :-D
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: sarafina on August 25, 2010, 08:02:13 pm
Try Walter Kelly

Walter Kelly (http://www.kelleybees.com/CMS/CMSPage.aspx?redirect=8811564d-e2c9-49ba-80f1-fb9e6f0ae1f2)

I re-queened a hot hive with one of their queens and it calmed down in about 4 weeks.

What are you wearing for protection that you keep getting stung and end up in the ER?  I have not been stung since getting an Ultra Breeze suit last summer.  I know nothing is sting-proof, but going a year w/o a sting is pretty darn good.   :-D
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Highlandsfreedom on August 25, 2010, 08:11:15 pm
Try Walter Kelly

Walter Kelly (http://www.kelleybees.com/CMS/CMSPage.aspx?redirect=8811564d-e2c9-49ba-80f1-fb9e6f0ae1f2)

I re-queened a hot hive with one of their queens and it calmed down in about 4 weeks.

What are you wearing for protection that you keep getting stung and end up in the ER?  I have not been stung since getting an Ultra Breeze suit last summer.  I know nothing is sting-proof, but going a year w/o a sting is pretty darn good.   :-D

And you beeing in Houston how does it work around Aug?
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 25, 2010, 08:13:33 pm
Commercial hoody with the shoulder length leather gloves (with the mesh vents) and a square veil with hard plastic hat tied.  They keep coming at you by a hundred and one or two gets under the veil and one sting.... emergency room. :(  If the hive sees your shadow by their entrance they come out, it is amazing!  When my dad foamed  their entrance he did it at night in the rain and I held the spotlight all the way at the house (200 ft away) and the bees came all the way to the house!  WOW, they get mad!  So I just have not seen a hive like this before and I don't want anyone to get hurt.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 25, 2010, 08:15:32 pm
If dad kills the queen, and puts in a new queen, will they have enough time to calm down with new brood and bees?
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Kathyp on August 25, 2010, 08:52:44 pm
you need to get a full suit with the attached hood.  the hat and veil combo is good for catching bees....inside it. 
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Kathyp on August 25, 2010, 08:54:24 pm
BTW...bees go for light.  next time try it without the spot   :-D
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 25, 2010, 09:07:16 pm
It was pitch dark out. :-D
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: sarafina on August 25, 2010, 09:42:15 pm
Try Walter Kelly

Walter Kelly (http://www.kelleybees.com/CMS/CMSPage.aspx?redirect=8811564d-e2c9-49ba-80f1-fb9e6f0ae1f2)

I re-queened a hot hive with one of their queens and it calmed down in about 4 weeks.

What are you wearing for protection that you keep getting stung and end up in the ER?  I have not been stung since getting an Ultra Breeze suit last summer.  I know nothing is sting-proof, but going a year w/o a sting is pretty darn good.   :-D

And you beeing in Houston how does it work around Aug?

LOL - NOTHING is comfortable in August!  But the Ultra Breeze suit is the best I have found - it is 3 layers of mesh so the air flows through it but the girls can't get their stingers in (so far).  The middle layer is interesting - kind of a thin rubbery layer with larger holes and the outer and inner layer is a finer mesh.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: sarafina on August 25, 2010, 09:44:43 pm
I agree with kathy - get a FULL SUIT if you are that allergic!

I ended up at the doc's office with multiple stings (too many to count) wearing a jacket and veil that they were able to get under.  I went the next day for a shot so I could see to go back to work sooner - not life-threatening for me.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: sarafina on August 25, 2010, 09:49:21 pm
If dad kills the queen, and puts in a new queen, will they have enough time to calm down with new brood and bees?

Hopefully someone from your area will chime in.  I think I re-queened in July last year but we don't see winter until Dec down here (if then) and my bees fly pretty much year-round except for the occasional cold snap and only cluster at night.  It will definitely set your hive back but you don't have too many alternatives at this point and if you lose them then all you lost were mean bees you didn't want anyway - at least you can say you tried to save them.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Apis_M_Rescue on August 26, 2010, 02:13:34 am
Yes white light is like a bee lure. Try a flashlight w/ red filter as red light isn't seen by bees. Also shadows activate some bees & if possible work those bees from behind their entrance & w/o casting a shadow over em. Also does anyone spray Fischers Bee-Quick on their suit & veil to any effect?

Hope a requeening gets em settled down, good luck.

Cheers, David S
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Jim134 on August 26, 2010, 06:31:49 am
You can send the bees to    


United States Department Agriculture in MD.

Bee Research Laboratory
Bldg. 476, BARC-East
Beltsville, MD 20705
(301) 504-8821


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/directs.htm (http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/directs.htm)

http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/highlights.htm (http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/psi/brl/highlights.htm)

:? Have you send bees to the lab for a DNA testing  :?  At United States Department Agriculture it is free all it costs to you is shipping to Beltsville, MD


  
It was pitch dark out. :-D

 
   Good bees will not fly in the dark but will crawl. (no full moon light) If you are going to use a light use a red fiter only it. It is hard for bee to see in red light.I hope this will help you out  


        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 26, 2010, 07:33:47 am
Now I am waiting for my final results for my allergic reaction test to come back!  To see if I can keep my bees. :'(
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: gundalf on August 26, 2010, 09:50:50 am
After living in the desert southwest for 20 years, I've found that Africanized bees are not that much more aggressive unless they are mishandled and according to research in the area, their sting is less nasty than a non AHB, they just sting as a team...   So instead of getting a few stings you get a few dozen stings...   Those who died, were people with no bee knowledge who panicked and had no where to hide...   All bees in the southwest are now Africanized, and they still make a load of mesquite and catclaw honey there...   Yummy...   Go for a better suit, wear long shirt and pants underneath and requeen   I just got a new Italian from Kelley in Ky. last week, no problems...   Looks like you have developed an allergy, your Dr can prescribe a protective pen/pin that will prevent the reaction if you get stung...    Good luck... 
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: sarafina on August 26, 2010, 12:54:48 pm
After living in the desert southwest for 20 years, I've found that Africanized bees are not that much more aggressive unless they are mishandled

That was not my experience, but it was only one hive.  They would come after me for just taking the top cover off and I don't consider that "mishandling".  Smoking didn't seem to make them any calmer.  Re-queening fixed everything.   :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Jim134 on August 26, 2010, 03:41:20 pm
sarafina ......

Did you have a DNA test on the hive  :?


 I have had aggressive bees in the 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s 00s may be African mixed bees?  :evil:

   BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 26, 2010, 06:19:00 pm
When I get the results of my test and if it is negative I will get them tested, if not I will let dad destroy them.  Can't chance someone getting hurt.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 27, 2010, 09:20:47 pm
Just got my results back, I am now allergic to honey bees.  Must sell all my hives, anyone wanna buy?
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Kathyp on August 27, 2010, 11:00:51 pm
that sucks.  is there anything they can offer to desensitize you to the bee stings? 
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 27, 2010, 11:18:05 pm
No, they said I was a 6.9 so that somehow I am very allergic to honey bees now!  So I have to get allergy shots and always have an epipen with me at all times the doctor told me today.  Hopefully the bees will have a good home. :'(
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: lenape13 on August 28, 2010, 12:25:43 am
Sorry about your dilemma.  If I lived closer, I'd take your girls and give them a great home.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 28, 2010, 08:37:41 am
Wife said I gotta sell them all now.  Man this is bad. :(  But she explained to me that it was like keeping a dangerous animal around me.  I understand her, she wishes that I wasn't because she knows how much I love the bees.  Now I have to pick up another hobby.  Country
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: sarafina on August 28, 2010, 11:17:44 am
I am so sorry Country.  I know this is hard on you and I hope you find a good home for your bees.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 28, 2010, 01:55:51 pm
Thank you sarafina.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: FRAMEshift on August 28, 2010, 02:42:39 pm
I have also just had a test showing I am allergic to honey bee venom.   I'm getting 6 months of shots and after that will need to make sure I get stung once a month to keep the tolerance up.  Sorry that's not an option for you because I sure would not like to give up my bees.
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 28, 2010, 02:53:26 pm
Three times to the emergency room this month, I thought insulation, then a horsefly, then I knew it was a bee!  I thought maybe it was a different kind of honey bee, I was stupid!  Now the doctor said that I have to carry that pen around with me if I go camping and I have an appointment with an allergy specialist for shot(s).  But I already called the allergist and he said he can't make me tolerant of them.  He wouldn't say why.  He said he had to mix up something with bee venom when I come and it will help me if I get stung with time to get me epipen shot in the leg again, then go to emergency room for steroids.  Fun, fun. :-D  I just have to go find another hobby, maybe grow ginseng?  Country :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Jim134 on August 28, 2010, 03:02:30 pm
I hope you can find another hobby you like.


       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: Apis_M_Rescue on August 28, 2010, 03:19:46 pm
Hi Country,
Gotta do whats best for you & family, no doubt. Regret to hear as you are passionate toward those furry flying ladies. Sounds like you had a great ride & keep those great memories w/ the honey bees regardless. All the best in your uplifting pursuits.

David S in southern California  :bee:
Title: Re: African mixed bees?
Post by: CountryBee on August 28, 2010, 03:27:51 pm
You are all great friends, thank you. Country :)