Slatted bottomboards

[Cindi]

I am still trying to get the concept of slatted bottomboards.  I know Brian has a lot of stuff about design, but I still don't get it.  Do the slats somehow sit between the frames of the super above it?  Could someone clearly and deeply define how it is used?  Have a wonderful day, beautiful life, great health.  Cindi

[Robo]

The slatted rack goes between the bottom board and the first brood chamber.



The front 4-5 inches is blocked off completely which prevents the bees from making the ends of the frames high traffic areas. 

I use to use them all the time,  but stopped once I started using SBB.   I am actually now moving back towards them with solid bottom boards.   In fact,  I just built a one piece combo bottom board/slatted rack for poly hive with HSC frames that I'm experimenting with this year.

[reinbeau]

What is the benefit of using slatted bottomboards?

[Mici]

it's actually just bee-space if i understand it correctly, the bees have enough space to...live, enough space so at night they can all be inside without being hot. i think that's about it...they swarm less if they don't feel tightened and hot.

[Kathyp]

robo, why are you going back to the solid bottom board?

[Mici]

The front 4-5 inches is blocked off completely which prevents the bees from making the ends of the frames high traffic areas. 

why is this a good thing?

[Robo]

What is the benefit of using slatted bottomboards?

It is not a slatted bottom board, rather a slatted rack that goes on top of the bottom board and under the brood chamber.   It provides additional space to reduce congestion and gives better ventilation.  It also gives a buffer between the bottom of the brood chamber and entrance, that allows the bees to raise brood all the way down the bottom of the frame.

[Robo]

The front 4-5 inches is blocked off completely which prevents the bees from making the ends of the frames high traffic areas. 

why is this a good thing?

They are less likely to chew the foundation out of the corners and more likely to raise brood all the way down to the bottom of the frame.

[tillie]

When I put slatted racks on my hives, all of them stopped the huge beards at night.  It's hot in Atlanta and the addition of the slatted rack made a huge difference in ventilation and gave the bees somewhere to hang out.  They still hang out on the porch on the hottest nights, but not nearly like the way they did at the beginning of last summer before the slatted racks.

Linda T in Atlanta

[Robo]

robo, why are you going back to the solid bottom board?

There are multiple factors for me,  but I guess it just comes down to personal preference.  I know many claim success with SBB open all year round, even in northern climates.  But my experience has been that I get better earlier brood build up with a warmer hive.  So I have my SBB closed from ~ October 1st to June 1st.  I have read contradicting reports of the amount of varroa that are reduced by falling thru the SBB.  In fact, David Eyre,  who I have great respect for,  feels that the slightly higher temperature and humidity of a solid bottom board creates a less advantageous environment for mite reproduction.  As far as ventilation,  the top of the hive is the bottleneck.  If you provide good top ventilation,  a standard bottom board provides plenty of ventilation, not to mention the added benefit of the slatted rack in directing the air thru the center of the hive. Lastly,  I look at all the feral hives I have been removing,  and most of them seal up as much of the openings as they can, and since the bees know more than me,  why try to fight it :-P

[Mici]

so slatted rack is nothing but 1cmx1cm bars spaced at 8mm, i persume the bar width is not so essential, but preferably it's 2cm? so the spacings are right under the frame spacings, right=

just tell me one thing, what keeps this LR hives together. i've seen some photos and i've seen some plans, but never have i seen a groove or something that would hold the boxes together, do they just sit one on top of each other, without any insurance?

[AllanJ]

If you are going to purchase as opposed to make, then go with the ones from betterbee, they go from front to back and not side to side. The ones from better bee are very well made and solid.
http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=308


Personally, I think they are great and create space under the bottom hive body without the bees making burr comb everywhere. I am going to look into Brian's idea of a middle SR between the brood and supers and give it a try.

[Kathyp]

why try to fight it

thats a good point.  i noticed that the hive i took out of the wall was behind T & G wall and had only one very small opening in the outside wall.  it looked like there would be 0 air circulation, but there they were and there they had been for a long time.

[Robo]

just tell me one thing, what keeps this LR hives together. i've seen some photos and i've seen some plans, but never have i seen a groove or something that would hold the boxes together, do they just sit one on top of each other, without any insurance?

Yes they just sit on top of one another, but the bees provide plenty of insurance (ie. propolis)

[Zoot]

I suspect that the blocked off front of the commercial slatted racks is probably irrelevant with regard to it's supposed ability to enhance full build up of the bottom frames. I keep my inserts in my SSB's until it gets quite warm (like right about now), simulating an SBB. I kept an eye out for this problem last year and it never materialized. Nor has it this year. All of my bottom frames seem to have filled with brood quickly. Perhaps Brian's theory that a thermal layer exists in the plane of the slatted rack is correct.

[Robo]

I suspect that the blocked off front of the commercial slatted racks is probably irrelevant with regard to it's supposed ability to enhance full build up of the bottom frames.

Without the blocked off front,  the  lower corner of the frame is right above the entrance and drafty. I have never seen brood raised in this corner.   The blocked off section provides a buffer area. The same principle you see used on igloo entrances.

[Cindi]

Still confused.  I am not going to buy slatted bottomboards, my husband will build them.  From the pictures that you posted in Rob, it shows that there is the 4-5 inch solid part.  Is this absolutely necessary?  I would think that the doweling running the entire width would be much more simple to construct and may work better.  Elaborate please.  Have a wonderful day, great life, great health.  Cindi

[Zoot]

Cindi,

 The bottom boards and slatted racks are 2 seperate items my dear. You install the rack right on top of the bottom board (either screened or solid type).

Robo's description of the purpose of the solid area in the front of the commercial slatted racks is correct and is supported in the literature on the subject. But everyone I know who has made their own runs the dowels the full length of the inside area. Perhaps it is akin to small cell practices - minimally adressed by research but it works anyway. I know that Brian has asserted that the thermal barrier created by the rack renders the solid section redundant. I question thsi myself but in my 2nd year of practice it seems to work beautifully.

As hobbyists, it is easy for us to make assumptions based on our own ultimately limited experimentation that often is done without scientific control, etc. I fully understand that my own conclusions are merely "theories in progress". That's why the input from people who have been exploring methods for decades is so valuable. Either way, it's all fun and interesting. Best of luck to you.

[Robo]

From the pictures that you posted in Rob, it shows that there is the 4-5 inch solid part.  Is this absolutely necessary? 

Nothing with the slatted rack is absolutely necessary. :-P

As stated earlier, the solid part prevents the bees from coming in the entrance and right up the ends of the frame.  In takes them to the center of the frame for access, at which point they can fan out in all directions.  When the main traffic path is right up the end of the frame, some chewing of the foundation/comb can occur.

The solid part also provides a dead air space that reduces draft from the entrance (similar to the entrance you see on igloos) which allows them to raise brood right above the entrance.

Here is a good set of plans -> http://www.beesource.com/plans/bottomrack.htm

[Brian D. Bray]

The use of a slatted rack is a must imo.  The 4" set back on the one end as in the betterbee catalog is absolutely unnecessary.  In my experience I have found the same things that Zoot is discovering for himself.  A slatted rack 1 3/4 inches thick with the appropriate number of dowling to line up underneath the frames allows the mites to roll off the slat and out through the SBB.  The air space between the dowls acts as a dead air space that hinders draft and produces an insulation.  The bees use the space for moving air through the hive, meaning the moisture within the hive is more easily vented.  The bees will use the slatted rack as a spare room that reduces bearding.  The rack also gives the bees more space within the hive which helps overcrowding a reduces the likelyhood of swarming. 

The advantages for using a slatted rack can only be proven through use.  I might add that I came to the conclusion of using my own design of slatted rack independent of any outside input as, until last year, I was a beekeeping hermit, doing my own thing from 1972 until 2006.  I had little or no contact with the outside world.  I didn't go to beekeepers meeting and I did not subscribe to any beekeeping magazines during that time.

When I advocate something it is from personal experience.

[Cindi]

Rob, the design that you gave the site for shows the boards going crossways across hive, I thought that they ran lengthwise.

Brian, do you have any plans for the slatted bottomboard that you designed?   I still don't get it.  Does it matter where the dowelling is situated on the end of the frame that it attaches to?  I mean, like 1/2 inch from the top, middle, lower 1/2 inch.  Does this make sense to you, my request for instruction?I am the kind of person that requires indepth instructions, or pictures, I learn in strange ways and things must be taught differently to me.  Once I learn, I never forget. 

I think another concept problem I have is:  it is indicated to have the doweling right below a frame.  I know that in my hives the frames move either way a tiny distance.  If I push all the frames to one end, there is a gap of at least 1/2 inch.  HOw can it be assured that the frames will sit directly above a dowel.  Still rather confused.  Have a wonderful day, great life, and good health wishes to all.  Cindi

[Robo]

Rob, the design that you gave the site for shows the boards going crossways across hive, I thought that they ran lengthwise.

The original design as used by CC Miller and Killion had them going crossways as the plans show.  Putting the slats inline with the frames is a recent change in an attempt to allow varroa to fall thru.  Since I use them on solid bottom boards, it doesn't matter to me.   And as you stated, with frame movement,  it is hard to guarantee the slats remain under the frames and do not end up between the frames and catching all the mites.  Personally, I don't believe enough varroa reduction is achieved by "dropping mites" anyway.    It all depends on what you want to achieve as to how you build them.  There are pros and cons of each design and beekeepers adamant about each as well.  So it comes down to what makes you feel good. :-P

[shakerbeeman]

I built two last night. Hope they are right. I plan to have top entries so eliminated the 4" flat coming in. Mine are slatted the whole way. I made 1" wide x 3/4" deep sticks which I then routed the top two edges to give a 1/2 round. This side up I installed in a slot approx 1/4" down from the top edge of my 2" frame. To the bottom of this frame I installed #8 wire screen and held it secure with wood cleats. These cleats are 3/4" thick on two long sides and one end. The other end has a 3/8" cleat to allow for air space as my hives sit on plywood. I can also slide a paper or tray in there to check the mites when necessary. I may make two more without the air space on the bottom to put in at the top later as Brian indicates he feels this helpfull.

[Robo]

I made 1" wide x 3/4" deep sticks which I then routed the top two edges to give a 1/2 round.

Sounds like a cheaper alternative than buying dowels. :-D   I guess you could even cut the corners off at a 45 if one didn't have a router and make them with a point facing up.

I may make two more without the air space on the bottom to put in at the top later

I tried a mid-entrance last year that worked fairly well. It gave them room to hang out,  but also acted as a buffer that prevented the queen from laying in the honey supers.
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=6865.msg55144#msg55144

[Brian D. Bray]

Shakerbeeman,

It sounds if your design should work fine.  Using the bottom side of the rack as s varroa screen should be fine also, especially if you're still using solid bottom boards.  When you use the racks as queen excluders it helps if there is that band og honey across the top of the brood frames.  Between the honey arc and the rack the space is great enough that the queen will usually not cross up into the supers, providing you have given you queen sufficient brood space.  That is why I use 3-4 mediums as my brood chamber.  It gives me lots of brood rearing space to produce a strong hive and once the hive is well established (2nd year) the honey production is awesome when good forage areas are available.

[Cindi]

Hmmm..wish I had taken woodworking in high school.  The good it would have done me now was something I never thought in my younger days.  I bet Linda in Atlanta is onto building some slatted bottomboards.  She really is getting good at designing and building stuff, yeah!!!  Best of a beautiful day, great life, great health wishes to us all.  Cindi

[AllanJ]

Cindi, You just need a good tape measure, a sharp pencil and plenty of wood. I have never been much good at building stuff and my 1st attempt at anything is normally more funny than practical.. but, I keep going at it and by the 3rd attempt I have the design I want and a method I can use.  Part of my problem at the moment is that I do not have a table saw, which is an absolute must for someone like me.. once I resolve that issue on Fathers day :)  then I plan to start building all my own covers, SR's, NUC's etc..

Next year I plan a rapid growth in my bee yard and it will save me a load of money to be able to build my own items.. 

Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe..  :)

[Cindi]

My dear old Uncle, who has long left this world, always told me, and I will never forget, he was my world to me to measure twice, and cut once.  This advice I have never forgotten.  Have a wonderful day, great day, great health wishes to all.  Cindi

[Zoot]

I have modified that ( to the eternal frustration of my clients)   in my own work to "measure 4 or 5 times and cut once". And I still make mistakes.

[Robo]

I've cut it twice and it is still too short! :shock:

[Cindi]

This is kindof off topic, but I have to say something.  I am horrible about woodworking of any sort.  I remember in my early 20s I built a barn for my goats.  My girlfriend and I built it.  Oh man, what a mess.  It was more of a shed, but I honestly have no clue to this day how it stood up, but it housed my two Nubians and then went on to be home to some pigs for my brother when I moved out and he and his family moved in.  It was really a kind of dangerous structure, when I look back on time, but in those days I was most reckless and it didn't matter.  I don't think I measured more than once and certainly cut probably more than once.  Oh, those crazy days of youth.  Have a wonderful day, great life, great health to all.  Cindi