Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Draginol on August 22, 2007, 08:20:09 pm
-
I have a couple of nucs and was interested in finding ways of safely overwintering them.
I think the challenge is in being able to reliably feed them. Does anyone here have any suggestions on this? I was thinking of maybe a place that might sell Nuc covers with a spot to put on sugar or something to feed the bees. But not sure if that would work either as I understand bees, even on sugar can sugar, can get dysentary.
-
Try to do a search on baggie feeders. I think ted has a post that describes how to set it up. Also Finsky talks about using a tera heater under the hives.
-
I've been working on a reliable system for overwintering nucs. Can't say I've arrived but I have had some luck. There have been many discussions on Beesource and probably on here as well. My experiences are here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm
-
I overwintered 2 Russian colonies in nucs this past winter. They did great. Each hive was two deep nucs high which would be the same area as one deep super. I used Miller Bee Supplies hive top feeders which worked real good. http://www.millerbeesupply.com/Page17.htm
-
I overwintered 3 nucs last year, just 3 deep nuc's, no supers or anything, I feed heavy in the late fall with top feeders then took off the top feeders and after it was a warm winter and the bee's werer working most of it I added the 2" shims and put baggies feeders on when it got cold, I use top feeders when it is warmer, they worked great, see with the warm weather they went through there winter stores and I knew it would get cold before the spring hit, the baggie feeders worked fine, all 3 nuc's were in 10 frame hives before the flow hit, all 3 ended up with 3 deeps, I have split them once and going to make nuc's with the other depps before long, try before the fall flow, but this winter I have 25 nucs going to winter so we will see, last year all 3 made it so lets try 25 this year :-D ;)
-
I'm going to keep two in my basement, with tubing to the outside, and feeding them with top feeders all winter. Hoping that will work for me.
-
I like the way of this system i got photo from BJORN BEE fondant dose not cause condensation which can result in nosemea and many other problems. long lasting worth a try in my book RDY-B http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/?action=view¤t=beepictures029.jpg
-
I've tried many ways from in the basement to on top of another hive. I never had much luck trying to feed syrup all winter due to dysentery. My best results are from feeding sugar candy (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/emergency-feeding/) and giving a little supplemental heat from the bottom with 7 watt night lites.
-
I have about 8 NUCs right now that I have completely ignored all summer. It is absolutely amaxing they have not just up and swarmed on me.
Anyway I have similar bottom boards as Micheal Bush and thought about placing the main hive right on the south side of my house for the winter. That way the hives are blocked from the North and East sides by the house. The only wind that can come thru is from the south east, but it has to break through the tree line. It will also give me the opportunity to run a small heat pad to the hive if indeed it does get extremely cold on them through the winter months.
-
Here's my newest plan to feed them:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm
Look at the apartment stacking of the bottom board feeder.
-
very interesting indeed would like to hear more about that i like the versatility of feeding pollen patty also do they build much ladder-comb down on frame might help reduce drowning once its established thumbs up RDY-B
-
I like the way of this system i got photo from BJORN BEE fondant dose not cause condensation which can result in nosemea and many other problems. long lasting worth a try in my book RDY-B http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x236/BjornBee/?action=view¤t=beepictures029.jpg
The two nucs of Russian bees I overwintered in NJ had queens in them from Bjorn. I used a hive top feeder but also fed them fondant which Bjorn suggested for the same reason you are stating which I think makes alot of sense. I would like to find a cheap supplier of fondant in NJ however. I know there must be one out there. I made the fondant myself. My nucs were two nuc bodies high each which worked real well for me and we had some cold spells this past winter.
-
As with any feeder that has bees in it, you have to pour syrup in very slowly to not drown the bees. A float made of 1/4" plywood probably wouldn't hurt, but I haven't made any yet. You only need to pour a tiny amount in every day to keep them fed, If you want to do more, I'd make two passes and put a little in to get them off the floor, and then come back around and add some more slowly to top them off.
-
As with any feeder that has bees in it, you have to pour syrup in very slowly to not drown the bees.
I personal dont like feeders like that, this is the type feeder I use and they work fine and not hard to build, this picture is from my buddies site, Dwight Porter, me him and fatbeeman use this type feeder, it only holds about a quart for nuc's
(http://www.porterfarmbees.com/images/5FrameFeeder.jpg)
-
CWBEES the up side about fondant i think is that the bees dont have to break cluster to get the food set it directly on top bars and bees remain in cluster while food is consumed understanding winter cluster is one of the keys to success even in cali we get cold snaps that can be a real set back RDY-B
-
As with any feeder that has bees in it, you have to pour syrup in very slowly to not drown the bees.
I personal dont like feeders like that, this is the type feeder I use and they work fine and not hard to build, this picture is from my buddies site, Dwight Porter, me him and fatbeeman use this type feeder, it only holds about a quart for nuc's
(http://www.porterfarmbees.com/images/5FrameFeeder.jpg)
I have the same nuc feeders you have TwT. I purchased them from Millers and they work great.
-
CWBEES the up side about fondant i think is that the bees dont have to break cluster to get the food set it directly on top bars and bees remain in cluster while food is consumed understanding winter cluster is one of the keys to success even in cali we get cold snaps that can be a real set back RDY-B
How does the cluster get past the paper plate without breaking cluster?? That is why I use hard candy right on top. I agree though, miller type feeders are not an option in areas with real Winters. If they have to break cluster to get to the food, chances are they will starve during a prolonged cold snap.
-
ROBO ; yes how indeed that photo was somebody else's pic thats why i said in my post place directly on top bars (dont need paper plate) when it is cold. bees dont have to move food keeps being consumed 8-) its all good many ways to skin a cat RDY-B
-
ah OK. It is hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like it may be kind of soupy and that was the need for the paper plates.
-
For the less adventurous beekeepers..... You can find a fully enclosed high capacity feeder - it is a patented product of Bee-Commerce.com - That is the Author of Beekeeping for Dummies - www.bee-commerce.com site where he offers many great (although often high-end pricing on products found at other major sites. like super bodies, and similar wood and wax products.
The point is his inner over (I'll post the exact link when I get more time - or some kind member will post it for me :)
I think you'll "see" the feeder on that home page of his. I think his protected feeder is a nice looking self contained thing, especially if you don't want an entrance feeder, but hate refilling sugar syrup containers ever day or two - I don't own one of these but was always curious if any members were, I SURELY WOULD APPRECIATE SOMEONE WHO BOUGHT ONE to tell us how well it work.
I'm lazy, but lucky this year, I didn't need to feed and both hives are doing very well, C1 ahead of C2 by less than a queen's life. Not to bad bad, both hive VERY gentle to work.
-
I suggest you use our IMAGESTATION PROGRAM as shown below this post - your images will remain full size (up to a meg. - don't share any file over a meg - I think with the exception maybe of WALLPAPER - which make me think of..... It is reallt simple, has a tutorial and you aren't dumb, so you'll breaze through that learning curve. Goodluck.
-
Is this the feeder you're referring to John?
http://www.bee-commerce.com/detail.asp?Product_ID=206
-
>I don't own one of these but was always curious if any members were, I SURELY WOULD APPRECIATE SOMEONE WHO BOUGHT ONE to tell us how well it work.
I have about ten of them. They are well designed and well made and expensive. The work fine. The only things I don't like about them is they are ten frame (and I run eight frame) and they are difficult to take off to examine the colony. Syrup sloshes a lot. The other downside is when it's cold the bees won't touch it where they would work a jar feeder that is right over the cluster or a frame feeder right next to the cluster.
What I LOVE about them is they are easy to fill and (if you have a bee tight lid) you don't have any bees drowning to speak of. You still need to fill it slowly as the bees down in the syrup have to move up (in the enclosed screened area). And they hold a lot of syrup.
Brushy Mt. has some that hold even MORE syrup and have them in eight frame, but they are even harder to get the bees up into in cold weather as the trip from the cluster to the syrup is even further up and further down.
-
Now that cooler weather is approaching, I'm still planning to move two nucs into my basement for the winter. I'm planning to feed fondant when they run out of honey stores, and I figure if I add a pollen patty, they can raise a little brood all winter long. I've got slots for my entrance feeders to provide them with water, since they won't be feeding on syrup. The goldenrod is done, and there doesn't seem to be anything else blooming. The bees seem to have stopped bringing back pollen. It's going down into the high 40s to low 50s at night, and mid 60s to low 70s during the day.
Now my question is, when should I make the move? Wait until it gets and stays cold outside, or move them while the weather is still nice enough during the day for them to fly?
-
Now my question is, when should I make the move? Wait until it gets and stays cold outside, or move them while the weather is still nice enough during the day for them to fly?
i don't like to move bees when they aren't flying. moving and jarring the hive could cause them to break cluster. but if you are moving them a short distance and into some warmth it shouldn't bother them much.
-
I would wait until it is cold enough that they won't e flying any more. Not sure if you are giving them an entrance, but if not, you want them to be able to fly as long as possible before locking them in. If you are giving them entrance, I think you want to wait until they won't be flying anymore so you don't loose any to drifting back to the old location (assuming in is near your basement). The few years I used the basement, I waited until the end of November/December to bring them in.
Hope you have better luck than I did with it.
-
>Now that cooler weather is approaching, I'm still planning to move two nucs into my basement for the winter.
I've not had any luck with indoor wintering. If you insist, I would research the concept as thoroughly as you can. Keeping the bees in the 40 F range is good for overwitnering indoors. Warmer is bad as they are too active. Anything over 50 F is a very bad idea as they will just kill themselves trying to get out instead of clustering. If you have them with a tube so they are free flying they might do well in the basement, but they need access to fly so at least they can figure out its too cold to fly instead of "worrying" themselves to death trying to get out.
Try a search on "indoor" here and on Beesource and you'll find some good discussions with people who have succeeded and failed at indoor overwintering. Most failed before they succeeded and I hope you can avoid their mistakes.
-
I do have a tube for them to get out. Basically, I've built a box that sits up against the front of the nucs, with slots on the sides for the feeders to fit (with water). The tubes hook into the box. On the outside, there's a little box on legs to keep the openings up off the ground a bit and to angle them down, so rain will not get in.
Since cold air will be coming in through the tubes, I expect them to move around freely inside the box, but only go outside through the tubes when the air in the tubes is warm enough for them to fly.
I have two nucs, so I can't rig up the setup you describe on your website, Michael. A heater may work with a dozen or two nucs, but I can't imagine running it all winter long just for 2.
I'll check out Beesource...I'd rather learn from the mistakes of others if I can. :)
-
If you have a way for them to free fly it should work fine. My observation hive does well most years in a similar configuration.
-
I like the idea of a fondant. I have some extracted uncapped honey I could use in the mix. Does anybody have a recipe for using honey in fondant? Or can I simply use Robo's sugar candy recipe and replace some of the sugar with the honey?
-
With honey you have to decrease both the sugar and water content. At least when baking.
-
The weather is finally consistently below 50, and the bees have not flown in more than a week, so I decided the time was right to move my nucs inside.
I've hit a small snag in my plan, but I'm hoping to work it out and still get the nucs into the basement and hooked up to the box with exit tubes. My skills as a handyman/carpenter are weak at best. My box to attach to the front of the nucs was pretty close, but there were a few gaps were the bees could escape into the basement, so I had to move the nucs back outside while I problem-solve. I have constructed inner covers similar to the Honey Run Apiaries one, into which I had planned to put fondant and pollen patties. These fit perfectly (I did one thing right, anyway!). I did not add ventilation holes to the walls of the cover, since the nucs have 3 holes in them already for ventilation...the entrance, and one hole near the top at the front and back, both screened (these are Betterbee nucs, so they don't have a full width entrance...just a hole near the bottom in the front).
The worst case scenario, in which I can't get my nucs into the basement at all, means that I need to keep them outside. At the moment, I have the rear ventilation hole stopped up, so the entrance and the hole above it near the top are the only ones open; I thought that holes in the front and back would allow wind to pass straight through the hive, making it tough for the bees to keep warm. The holes as is should create a chimney effect, bringing cold air in the bottom and allowing the heat out the top without allowing a wind tunnel to form. I have 1.5" of styrofoam sitting on top of the outer covers (weighted down), and 1" underneath the bottom of the nucs (which I'm thinking may trap moisture between the bottom board and the styrofoam...bad idea to have this here?). I have the nucs placed as close to each other as possible along the long sides, but they don't quite meet flush along the whole side. I could run some duct tape down the outside of the gap to trap some air in the space, if that would help. I'd estimate the gap is at most 1/4".
If I need to keep the nucs outside, I plan to ensure that they have fondant all winter long in the inner cover; I have it placed right over the holes I made, so they can cluster right below it and feed. Do you think they have a shot, if I need to go this route? Is there something I could do to improve their chances? They're placed on my deck such that they get sun for as long as possible each day.
-
The weather is finally consistently below 50, and the bees have not flown in more than a week, so I decided the time was right to move my nucs inside.
Under 30 F and snow, and time to move in. 50 F is good temperature outside.
I've hit a small snag in my plan, but I'm hoping to work it out and still get the nucs into the basement and hooked up to the box with exit tubes.
???????
which I had planned to put fondant and pollen patties.
????????????
since the nucs have 3 holes in them already for ventilation...the entrance, and one hole near the top at the front and back, both screened
(these are Betterbee nucs, so they don't have a full width entrance...just a hole near the bottom in the front).
The worst case scenario, in which I can't get my nucs into the basement at all, means that I need to keep them outside.
Your plans are quite complicated.
How big are your nucs?
1) have you insulated boxes?
2) Temp near freezing point bees are good to be outside. 20 - 50 F is good to bees to outside.
3) Then another possibility is keep nucs in outdoor shelter which is dark, outdoor cold and fresh air.
I have smallest colonies in firewood shelter.
Later I put terrarium heater on 1-3W in January. I tried already heating but it was too hot and winter ball dispersed.
One nuc I have outside and it has 3 W heater in the upper part of hive. It has 3 frames for winter. First I thought that I kill the colony but then I begun to play with it.
4) One possibility is to build a big box with styrofoam insulating board. The floor is open and warm air rises inside the box.
Of course you must protect box that wind do not push warm atmosphere off.
**************
Chelter of cellar wintering need that
- temp is under 45F (7C)
- dark
- good ventilation, fresh air
Many bees will come out and die. It is normal.
.
-
Under 30 F and snow, and time to move in. 50 F is good temperature outside.
This is the case. I've basically been waiting for the bees to stop flying before moving them.
Your plans are quite complicated.
How big are your nucs?
1) have you insulated boxes?
2) Temp near freezing point bees are good to be outside. 20 - 50 F is good to bees to outside.
I've been trying to keep it as simple as possible, based on my equipment. Inside nucs with access to outside for cleansing flights. Feeding to keep from starving. Providing pollen to enable some brood rearing over winter and buildup in spring.
My two boxes are 5-frame, non-insulated boxes (http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=303). Thus my interest in moving them inside.
3) Then another possibility is keep nucs in outdoor shelter which is dark, outdoor cold and fresh air.
I have smallest colonies in firewood shelter.
Later I put terrarium heater on 1-3W in January. I tried already heating but it was too hot and winter ball dispersed.
One nuc I have outside and it has 3 W heater in the upper part of hive. It has 3 frames for winter. First I thought that I kill the colony but then I begun to play with it.
I don't have such a location available to me with good ventilation, and I've never seen the wire terrarium heater you've shown in your pictures; all I can find are pads or rocks.
Using the heater is similar to my moving the box inside, except that by feeding, I don't have to worry about how much food is consumed...much like an overwintered observation hive.
4) One possibility is to build a big box with styrofoam insulating board. The floor is open and warm air rises inside the box.
Of course you must protect box that wind do not push warm atmosphere off.
I don't think that my building skills or limited woodworking equipment would be up to this.
-
Moonshae, I am not sure if I have the right picture of what you are up to or not. But if the picture I have is what you are doing, I would rethink this if I were you. You say that you are putting them inside a basement with an exit hose, or something along that line. That is good in theory, but if the temperatures inside the basement is pretty warm then they might go fly outside for cleansing and perish. What are your winter temperatures? If they are below freezing, I think you are asking for a disaster. Not knowing exactly what your winter time is, my comments may not be correct though. Have a wonderful and great day, Cindi
-
I don't think that my building skills or limited woodworking equipment would be up to this.
Here is tools and material
If you buy stryfoam construction board, you may split it with knife. You make a cut, and twist the board and it will split a part.
Then you put a little moisture in surfaces and polyuretane clue. After a minute it is hardened. After using you split the clue point apart.
1) clue http://www.yourzagi.com/images/211-1188_img.jpg
2) 30 mm insulation board http://www.isover.fi/files/pictures/tu_re_avance300.jpg
3) knife http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/images/knife_parts.jpg
-
Moonshae, I am not sure if I have the right picture of what you are up to or not. But if the picture I have is what you are doing, I would rethink this if I were you. You say that you are putting them inside a basement with an exit hose, or something along that line. That is good in theory, but if the temperatures inside the basement is pretty warm then they might go fly outside for cleansing and perish. What are your winter temperatures? If they are below freezing, I think you are asking for a disaster. Not knowing exactly what your winter time is, my comments may not be correct though. Have a wonderful and great day, Cindi
If an observation hive can be overwintered in the warm living room with freezing temperatures outside, the only difference here is that my hive doesn't have glass walls. :)
-
Moonshae, I understand that. But my concern is, if the bees are very warm and they think it is warm inside and decide to go out for that cleansing flight, they would freeze the moment that they exited the tube that leads outdoors. That was what I was speaking about, sorry I didn't make it more clear. Maybe I am still missing a point in what you are describing. Beautiful day, beautiful life, Cindi
-
If you're concerned about winter the nucs I would suggest that you snuggle them as close together as possible and then wrap the exposed exteriors per Finskey.
-
If an observation hive can be overwintered in the warm living room with freezing temperatures outside, the only difference here is that my hive doesn't have glass walls. :)
As far as I know, observation hives are in very bad condition after winter. They must have cold that they have a calm winter sleep.
Outside temperature for good winter rest is under 7C / 44 F.
The surface temperature in bee ball is 61 F. Inner temperature for ball is 71 F - If not bees are running here and there.
.
-
Here is tools and material
If you buy stryfoam construction board, you may split it with knife. You make a cut, and twist the board and it will split a part.
Then you put a little moisture in surfaces and polyuretane clue. After a minute it is hardened. After using you split the clue point apart.
1) clue http://www.yourzagi.com/images/211-1188_img.jpg
2) 30 mm insulation board http://www.isover.fi/files/pictures/tu_re_avance300.jpg
3) knife http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/images/knife_parts.jpg
So, I'd just build this box and set it over the top of my two nucs together? Or each one separately? And since the bottom is open, that's how they'd get out for cleansing?
-
So, I'd just build this box and set it over the top of my two nucs together? Or each one separately? And since the bottom is open, that's how they'd get out for cleansing?
You make one big box and all under it. When it is cleansing time, you take big box off.
Or, you make a opening, where bees may fly all the time in and out.
If you have 5 frame nucs, which are well occupied, they survive over winter quite well. It depends do they get nosema or mites have bitten them. But it is sure, that bees will not over winter in room temperature. It is not natural to them. They run too hot.
In late winter bees start brooding too early and that makes a big problem too.
.
-
Moonshae, to add on a little bit to this topic. Bees can go a very long time without going out for a cleansing flight. For example, where Finsky is, in Finland, it is so cold for so long, that the bees stay within the colony for the winter sleep. It is several months before the bees in his country are able to take a cleansing flight. I think he may have said four or five months.
Bees are remarkable in how they can manage their climate that they live in. If they are in their winter cluster for long periods of time, they do not eat very much food, they are clustered. It is when they break cluster that they really begin to consume lots of food. In the cluster, they are concentrating on keeping this cluster warm by vibration of their thorax muscles.
If the hives are kept in a warm basement for example, they will eat lots of food and of course, then will need to get out for cleansing flights. This can be disasterous if the weather is so cold outside that they freeze the moment they go outdoors.
Finsky has said that observation hives are not in very good condition after the winter. I believe that. There is lots of food for thought here, not wanting to burst your bubble, but we need to really understand the biology of the bee to understand what is going on within. I am one that needs further study, I recognize that, that is one of the reasons that I love to spend time on this forum, I listen and I am learning. Have a beautiful and wonderful day, we all are learning. Cindi
-
You make one big box and all under it. When it is cleansing time, you take big box off.
Or, you make a opening, where bees may fly all the time in and out.
Ok, then one last question about this box...How tightly should it fit to the nucs? Should I leave a gap? And also, wouldn't this trap moisture inside the nucs (or does the open bottom provide sufficient ventilation)?
Thanks!
-
Ok, then one last question about this box...How tightly should it fit to the nucs? Should I leave a gap? And also, wouldn't this trap moisture inside the nucs (or does the open bottom provide sufficient ventilation)?
Thanks!
It is good if nucs are side to side. So they give warm. Insulated walls are ofcourse the best protection to bees.
My brother nurses bees near polar circle in Sweden. He put his bee hive into a bigger hive and put insulation (newspaper) between hive hive and summer hive. Bees managed fne 20 years and then he stopped whole beekeeping.
Of course the big box is colder than nucs. So moisture is ventilated outside and it condensates on the walls or just in "cold air" when warm moist air meets the colder air. Open bottom keeps nucs dry.
One trick woud be the best and simplest:
You put your two nucs sice by side outdoors. One entrance to west, and one to east.
Make from styrofoam board extra walls and keep entrance free bees to fly.
Make a little upper entrance that air circulates out.
It means that you make a bigger hive, when you put double hive inside. - Good insulations aroud that double hive.
This will help colonies in early spring when they start brooding.
.
-
Thanks for your explanation and patience, Finsky. I'm going to be doing this as soon as I can.
-
Here is this year's plan:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Winteringnucs1-2007.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WinteringNucs2-2007.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm
It kind of is all one big "box" with styrofoam on the top and bottom and heat on the back.
-
I'm finding a pile of dead bees outside the entrance to the styrofoam now for one of the nucs, about 20 today. Seems like a lot from a nuc. The other is not having this problem. I'm guessing this one isn't going to make it through the winter, unless there's something I can do...but I have no idea what's wrong.
-
>I'm finding a pile of dead bees outside the entrance to the styrofoam now for one of the nucs, about 20 today.
On a warm day they will catch up on houscleaning. 20 isn't that many.