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Author Topic: Foundation or foundationless  (Read 7370 times)

Offline Georgia Boy

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Foundation or foundationless
« on: February 19, 2013, 10:53:53 pm »
Just starting out. Hive will be here end of month. 

I will be getting 2 nucs for Don the fat bee man in Lula, GA. sometime in April.  I plan on putting one hive on Mann Lakes PF120's and am thinking of putting the other on foundationless frames from Walter Kelly. I ordered the ones with the guide bar on top. I want to watch and see which the bee build out fastest and I really like the idea of no foundation.

My hives will be 8 frame and all medium supers.

Just wondering what y'all's thoughts are on the subject.

Also, if you start with foundation in the first brood box and then switch to no foundation in the next, does it confuse the bees and slow them down?

And can you do the brood boxes with foundation and then do the supers foundationless? Does it matter?  Which is better?

Thanks in advance for y'all's help.
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Offline Bush_84

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 11:03:22 pm »
I am cheap so I don't use foundation.  I have not had any troubles thus far.  I build my own equipment so avoiding foundation signifantly cuts costs.  I don't think you will have any troubles going from one way to another.  As far as which is better...that depends on who you ask. 
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 11:07:11 pm »
When you got your bees, were they nucs or packages?
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Offline jmblakeney

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2013, 11:53:09 pm »
This is my third year of beekeeping and I have never used a sheet of foundation.  All my bees are from swarm catches and cutouts, minus two packages I have purchased before (neither of which survived winters here).  I have never had any problems with foundationless.  As long as you keep a check on them and correct any wonky/swaying comb as soon as you find it.  I am like bush_84, i build all my stuff and try to take the cheap route when possible. 

Switching will not bother them IMO. 

You could switch to foundationless in the supers if you like.  As far as which is better, I'm not sure.  You will find arguments for both.  I am full foundationless and can do everything you can do with foundation.  If you are gonna do comb or chunk honey I would definitely go foundationless, just because of the chemicals known to be in foundations nowadays.

Hope that helps,

James
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Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 12:02:21 am »
jm how are your combs standing up to extracting?  i'm considering moving to foundationless and i'm planning on wiring all my frames (just a couple of wires in the deep frames so i can handle them while they're being built if i need to go through the brood chamber). 
back around 2000 i caught a lot of swarms and came up short on foundation and cut around 2 inch strips out of what i had and used them in deep frames and the bees built it out just fine but i have to think that to stand up to extracting the combs would need wire for a little more support.  nothing worse than hearing thank sudden clunk while your extracting and knowing that the comb that turned loose may have beat up the next four or five beside it.

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2013, 12:03:02 am »
Thanks James really appreciate it.
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Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 12:07:13 am »
Hey James,

Don't suppose you have a picture of one of your frames? Wouldn't mind seeing one. I to am looking to make my own equipment. Can you recommend a good table saw?

How much does it cost to make your own super? If you don't mind.

Thanks
David
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Offline jmblakeney

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2013, 12:52:54 am »
10framer,
No problems with extracting, thus far.   Just take it easy when cranking and make sure the comb is connected on the bottom and sides in a few places.  I would go spinning them at a extremely high rpm. I am sure wiring a deep wouldn't hurt anything.  However, I don't use deeps, only run mediums, so I can't speak for extracting a deep.  I sometimes cut into the comb for various reasons, so I don't do any wiring.

Seag,
I guess I should rephrase my statement that I build "all" my equipment.  Frames are the only woodenware that I don't build.  To me it seems to tedious of work to fool with.  I can pay 80 cents a frame locally.  Thats way cheaper than a visit to the ER with a missing finger from all those cuts you have to do so close to the blade to build a frame.
There used to be a man on Youtube that showed step by step directions on how to build all the parts of a hive.  He has now changed them to private vids only.  I asked him to change them back to public because I really liked them.  We'll see if he does or not.  As far as table saws.  I use a cheap Ryobi.  The gears that adjust the angle of the blade has stripped out because they are plastic.  So I wouldn't recommend that brand. 

I can get 5 medium supers out of 3 - 1x8x10' boards using a rabbeted edge.  I can't remember how much those boards are a piece, but I believe that were around $25 for all 3.  So thats $25 for 5 medium supers plus your labor invested.  I love wood working so I don't factor in the labor. 

James

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Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2013, 01:12:53 am »
thanks, i wouldn't be extracting deep frames i was just considering the support when the comb is new and not attached to the bottom bar yet. 
price on the lumber depends on the grade, the species and the market.  lumber goes up and down daily like the stock market.

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2013, 02:05:45 am »
Hey James,

Thanks for all the information. We will see how it goes. 

As far as wood there in a man in Cartersville, GA.  That has lumber and he says he is way cheaper than Home Depot. Haven't talked to him yet but well will see.

Really looking forward to getting my bees and learning to make my own woodenware.

May hit you up from time to time for advice if thats ok?

thanks again

David
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Moots

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 06:36:09 am »
2425,
Buying my lumber at Home Depot for my medium Boxes, 8 frame equipment, I want to say I figured that they cost me around 6.50 per box for the lumber. Since then, per advice from this forum, when I wanted to build some Nucs, I decided to check prices at my local lumber company...they were literally less than half the price of Hone Depot.

I want to say Home Depot was $8.47 for 1x8x8's which they describe as kiln dried whiteboard, #2 or better. My LLY was $3.88 for #2 pine 1x8x8's and I was pleased with the quality of the boards.

Like James, I enjoy the wood working, I actually briefly considered attempting to build my own frames...for the reasons he mentioned, and many others, I just didn't see it as practical.

Beginners advice coming from a guy doing this on the side while working a full time job.  Building and painting my own hive bodies, Nucs, Bottom boards (Solid and SBB), inner covers (vented and regular), Telescoping top covers...As well as assembling frames and wiring them.  Not to mention building a wax embedded and extractor...
My time investment has been significant and much more than expected.

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed every second of it, but be aware, it does take time. I want to say throwing building frames on top of all that would have been too much, I'm glad I didn't attempt it. It's always something you can consider further down the road once you're a little more settled as a Beek. At least that's my plan.  :)

Good luck.

Offline Bush_84

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2013, 08:27:18 am »
Michael Bush has a good website on foundationless beekeeping.  I suggest you read it.  I also buy my frames.  Tried making my own, but it is dangerous and time consuming.  Not worth it.  Just make sure they have some sort of guide.  My hives were started as nucs which helps.  When you start with a straight comb, the bees will build straight comb from that.  You get one messed up comb and everything after that will be messed up, which can sometimes happen with a package.
Keeping bees since 2011.

Also please excuse the typos.  My iPad autocorrect can be brutal.

Offline JackM

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 08:52:55 am »
Hi, I started out last year with package and nuc.  The only problem with foundationless is sometimes they like to build 90 degrees to the way we want them to build comb.  Don't waste the money on foundation, I wish someone had notified me to save the money....want some?
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 09:24:10 am »
IMHO I believe a 'foundationless' system forces you into a more observant beek and keeps 'who knows what' out of your hives.  No 'permanent' foundation in my yard since 2007.  I keep some around mainly for guides and inside swarms traps.

Agreed; MB's website is very informative and is why I advise any beek to buy his book, despite it being freely offered on his site.  A "thanks" I suppose  :)
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Offline Stromnessbees

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2013, 10:20:47 am »
The only problem with foundationless is sometimes they like to build 90 degrees to the way we want them to build comb.  Don't waste the money on foundation, I wish someone had notified me to save the money....want some?

You can get them to build mostly straight comb by always adding the new frames between two straight ones.

One of the beauties of foundationless is, that you can put your new frames right into the middle of the broodnest (one at a time!). That's because they don't represent a barrier for the queen. It's just as if a comb had broken off and the bees will try to fill the gap asap, giving you very fast comb building.
 
Only one caution: don't do this towards autumn, as you don't want unbred comb in the center of your hive, the bees might not cross it in winter, leading to isolation starvation.


Wiring:

I use strong nylon fishing line, strung horizontally.
If you drill 4 holes into each sidebar, you can pull the line through, wrap it around a nail on one end, hammer in the nail, stretch the line and secure it with another nail at the other end.
You should be able to play it like a harp.
As a starter I wrap a narrow strip of foundation around the top line, but this might not always be necessary.
The bees will incorporate the fishing line in their comb, which makes the comb safe to handle and extract.

Fishing line won't conduct heat the same as wire, so the bees don't mind it so much. It's also nicer to handle.
Mine says 32.3 kg/65lb on the package. 

If you get too much drone comb you can just use that for a full size honey super after the drones have hatched.

Best of luck with it!

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2013, 10:39:11 am »
Thanks Moots.

I work around 60hrs a week so I will start by buying 6 hives and will eventually start making my own stuff.

I need the THERAPY. LOL  :)

There is a man in Cartersville who cuts lumber and I going to check with him on prices.

I need to find a good plan for an 8 frame medium super. I plan to use finger joints if that makes a difference.  If anyone knows the dimensions or where I can fine a plan that would be most helpful.

Thanks again Moots.

David
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Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2013, 10:55:05 am »
As for the rest,  I am following Michael Bush down this garden path. I like his common sense approach to bee keeping. Don't know if that is a mistake or not but that is the path I have chosen.  I have read most of his stuff.  Right or wrong I do believe you need to choose only one or maybe two people and focus on their direction that way it not too confusing. Throw out the stuff that doesn't work for you and keep what does but you have to start somewhere.

That is the reason for the small cell foundation and to try foundationless.

I will be using foundationless frames from Walter Kelley as they have the starter strip built into them and cost is the same.

Since I use all medium supers I haven't decided if I will cross wire them or not. If I do I will use fishing line to do so. The frames come pre drilled  with holes on the side of the frames. 

I do need to know if the metal inserts are worth the cost or will the fishing line not really hurt the frame?

 I thank everyone for their input.  I can never get enough information and I do know what works for one person well may not work for anyone else.

Thanks

David

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Moots

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2013, 10:58:13 am »
Thanks Moots.

I work around 60hrs a week so I will start by buying 6 hives and will eventually start making my own stuff.

I need the THERAPY. LOL  :)

There is a man in Cartersville who cuts lumber and I going to check with him on prices.

I need to find a good plan for an 8 frame medium super. I plan to use finger joints if that makes a difference.  If anyone knows the dimensions or where I can fine a plan that would be most helpful.

Thanks again Moots.

David

2425,
I have medium, 8 frame equipment, however, I went with the single rabbet joint.  I toyed with the idea of finger joints but quickly realized it was beyond both the capabilities of me and my equipment.  :)

You will see some slight variation in people's measurements, what I decided on matches Kelley's Inner dimensions for 8 frame equipment, if I'm not mistaken.  I use 1x8's ripped to 6 5/8".  My short boards are 13 3/4" and my long boards are 19 1/8".  If you do finger joints, the only change would be to make your long boards 19 7/8".  Come to think about it, that was a bonus plus for the Rabbet joints, you can squeeze a little more out of your lumber.  Anyway, I cut my frame rest on my short boards 5/8" down and 3/8" deep....and that's pretty much it.

I also made a little excel spreadsheet to help calculate how much lumber I need to build X number of boxes along with what lumber lengths gave me the least amount of waste.  Let me know if you want me to run some numbers for you, or if you're interested, I can clean it up a little and send it to you.

8 frames fit in this size comfortably, it'll give you a little play area on each side of your outside frames, this should help when trying to work the hive.

Good Luck!

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2013, 11:02:26 am »
Thanks again Moots.



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Offline Stromnessbees

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2013, 11:47:28 am »

I do need to know if the metal inserts are worth the cost or will the fishing line not really hurt the frame?


I don't use the metal inserts, they don't seem to be necessary.

Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2013, 11:55:24 am »
The only problem with foundationless is sometimes they like to build 90 degrees to the way we want them to build comb.  Don't waste the money on foundation, I wish someone had notified me to save the money....want some?

You can get them to build mostly straight comb by always adding the new frames between two straight ones.

One of the beauties of foundationless is, that you can put your new frames right into the middle of the broodnest (one at a time!). That's because they don't represent a barrier for the queen. It's just as if a comb had broken off and the bees will try to fill the gap asap, giving you very fast comb building.
 
Only one caution: don't do this towards autumn, as you don't want unbred comb in the center of your hive, the bees might not cross it in winter, leading to isolation starvation.


Wiring:

I use strong nylon fishing line, strung horizontally.
If you drill 4 holes into each sidebar, you can pull the line through, wrap it around a nail on one end, hammer in the nail, stretch the line and secure it with another nail at the other end.
You should be able to play it like a harp.
As a starter I wrap a narrow strip of foundation around the top line, but this might not always be necessary.
The bees will incorporate the fishing line in their comb, which makes the comb safe to handle and extract.

Fishing line won't conduct heat the same as wire, so the bees don't mind it so much. It's also nicer to handle.
Mine says 32.3 kg/65lb on the package. 

If you get too much drone comb you can just use that for a full size honey super after the drones have hatched.

Best of luck with it!


i never considered that.  that would be a lot easier to work with than wire but i wonder how long it will last inside.  monofilament tends to dry rot.  i will be trying it.  thanks.

Moots

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2013, 11:57:23 am »
I use the eyelets because I use wire and definitely think they are necessary and lend an advantage.  I've never tried the fishing line technique, but can see where they may not be necessary with it.

Offline gov1623

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2013, 12:39:14 pm »
10framer
I started using fishing line on my deep frames last year and so far its still holding strong. It really only needs to last  until the bees fully draw out the frame and attach it to the sides of the frame. After that the comb is strong enough and it really don't need support. I went to all foundation less in the brood boxes and love it.   
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Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2013, 12:50:57 pm »
10framer
I started using fishing line on my deep frames last year and so far its still holding strong. It really only needs to last  until the bees fully draw out the frame and attach it to the sides of the frame. After that the comb is strong enough and it really don't need support. I went to all foundation less in the brood boxes and love it.   
gov,
that's what i was thinking.  i'll use the nylon on my deeps and wire my mediums.  i'll probably use something lighter than 30# test, though.  i'm thinking 12# would do the job.
i can't believe that never crossed my mind.  that will be a definite time saver.

Offline gov1623

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2013, 01:07:05 pm »
10 framer
I use 15lb test but that's mainly because its what i fish with.
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Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2013, 06:50:44 pm »
Hey guys,

Thanks for all the feedback.

I had seen Don the fat beeman uses fishing line for support in his frames.  Mainly does it so he doesn't have to worry about wires when he is cutting queen cells out of foundation. Just cut right through it. No fuss no muss. No damaged queen cells.

It should be great if you are doing cut comb also.  Seem like you could just snip the end and pull it right out without mess up the comb. Don't really know but might work.
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Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2013, 07:01:00 pm »
10 framer
I use 15lb test but that's mainly because its what i fish with.

 i need to be fishing with you i usually get by with 10 or 12 pound test.

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2013, 07:03:22 pm »
You and me both.. I usually only use 6 to 8 lb test.  LOL  :)
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Offline bailey

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 10:44:55 pm »
What are you guys fishing for with that line?   Bait????
Come to the coast and let us show you fishing!! :evil:
Bailey
most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline gov1623

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 10:54:07 pm »
After you catch 100 speckled trout in about an hour you will know why we need heavier line. There teeth cut right through the line. And we usually always hook into a few bull reds which make a joke out of 15lb test.  Got to love South Louisiana!!!!!
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Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2013, 11:44:09 pm »
last i checked all the new limits won't let you keep too many of those fancy saltwater fish.  i mostly chase the elusive largemouth bass but i've been know to go after a catfish or two.

Offline PLAN-B

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2013, 11:48:54 pm »
Is that a little bragging I hear :-D got to love southeast Louisiana.... Catch large mouth bass in one cast and specks-reds and flounder in the next three cast... Love it... 17lb. Is what I normally throw, just can't horse in those big reds.....
Marshall

Offline bailey

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2013, 11:53:46 pm »
A daily limit of reds and specks and I bet you change your tune 10 frame.   
We're talking 3 gallons of fillets if you keep the right fish.
Unless your fishing catfish you won't get that much meat in fresh water and still be home for noon.  :evil:
Bailey
most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2013, 01:03:03 am »
oh, i've gone out and caught a grouper or two.  i've got a friend with a boat in florida that does a lot of inland fishing like that. 
man, i grew up on the back waters of the chattahoochee and we could go out three times a day and fill up on crappie like that when i was a kid.  when i was around 30 i did a lot of bass fishing and you could do the same things with spots/shoals/largemouth until the stripes they had released a few years before got big enough to out compete them. 
i'm just as happy carp fishing as i am 35 miles out.  i haven't had much time for any of it over the last 4 or 5 years, though.
and i'm just messing with you guys, saltwater vs. freshwater is like auburn vs. alabama around here.
i'll be passing through yall's way next week on my way to houston.  i haven't been past mobile in 35 years.  besides biloxi what else do i want to see?  i'm not on a real tight schedule.
also, what is land going for an acre in ms. and la. these days?  i'd want at least 35 to 40 acres.

Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2013, 01:06:17 am »
sorry about hijacking the thread seag.  you're a couple of hours from me if you end up near columbus or macon give me a heads up and you can come see some of what trying to do. 

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2013, 09:33:00 pm »
Hey Guys,

You can hijack my thread anytime if you are talking fishing.  I absolutely LOVE fishing even if I'm not catching anything.

As for 6 to 8lb test, I don't have a boat and can only walk the bank so I don't get many big ones. :(

I enjoy going to the Flint river near Thomaston, GA. There I can wade the whole river and fish for Shoal Bass.  Feisty little fighters. Great fun. 

Do get over to the Outer Banks in North Carolina every now and then.  Great surf fishing.

Never had the chance to fist the Gulf much.  Would be fun I'll bet.

You guys in LA are truly the lucky ones. 
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Offline greenbtree

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2013, 12:10:47 am »
Since moving to Iowa have degenerated to catching chubs with my son's "Tweety Bird" pole ("Mom, can I have my pole back now?" "Just a minute, just let me land this one...")  Catch and release of course, but the little buggers put up a fun little fight! 

As to extracting foundation-less frames, even deeps, just spin them slow at first, turn them and spin them slow again, then you can up the RPMs to finish.  It is the weight of the honey trying to push out from the opposite side that blows out the frames.

JC
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Offline 10framer

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2013, 01:01:39 am »
green, i'm planning on buying a 60 frame extractor next season.  i'm wondering if they'll hold up to that kind of abuse.  i'm thinking if i wire them they will.  i'm working more toward getting back to semi-commercial.  this is my early retirement plan along with some other farming.  also, i don't like to feed (even though i'm doing it now) so i don't plan on extracting any deep frames, those will all be for the bees. 

Offline jmblakeney

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2013, 05:32:37 pm »
There used to be a man on Youtube that showed step by step directions on how to build all the parts of a hive.  He has now changed them to private vids only.  I asked him to change them back to public because I really liked them.  We'll see if he does or not.
Well he did, yay!

You can find his channel here.

He also has a CD on Ebay that has his plans on it. 
(Not trying to break the rules here.  Mods, if that is feel free to delete that part.  I am in no way connected to him at all.)
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Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2013, 06:51:46 pm »
Hey 10framer,

You should try fishing line instead of wire.  Might do just as well. I just don't like the idea of wire in my foundation plus you have trouble cutting through it if you need to.

"Give it All You've Got"
"Never give up. Never surrender."

Offline Georgia Boy

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Re: Foundation or foundationless
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2013, 06:53:36 pm »
Hey jmblakeney,

What kind of fish is that you are holding?  I'm jealous. :)
"Give it All You've Got"
"Never give up. Never surrender."

 

anything