Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DOWN UNDER BEEKEEPING => Topic started by: chinsk on December 10, 2012, 12:22:55 am

Title: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: chinsk on December 10, 2012, 12:22:55 am
Hi,

As per the Apiary Code of Practice I informed my Landlord that I would like to install a hive.
I explained that I was registered with the DPI and no permit was necessary.
I also explained the benefit of bees for the garden, and that the hive is not a permanent fixture.

To my surprise the Landlord declined my request for a hive on the property. (It's a single level detached house in Alphington, VIC on about 700 sqm - plenty of room and flora for bees).

Has anyone had any experience with this before or can offer some suggestions on how I might be able to persuade the landlord otherwise?

Luckily a friend has come to the rescue and has allowed me to start a hive on their property, but I would prefer to have bees in my own backyard.  :(

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bernsad on December 10, 2012, 12:53:08 am
I'm surprised you asked, I would have just installed it.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: chinsk on December 10, 2012, 12:55:20 am
Yeah. I wasn't going to ask.. already have the boxes and location ready to go - just waiting for the bees to arrive.
But I didn't anticipate it would be refused!

All the neighbours were notified and were looking forward to some local honey!
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: BlueBee on December 10, 2012, 01:30:34 am
As a person with some rental homes, I'm sure the concern of the landlord is getting sued if someone has an allergic reaction in the neighborhood.  The landlord is the guy with the assets the lawyers can grab; a house.  If you try to put yourself in his/her position, is it worth risking a lawsuit to allow bees on the property?  I would say no too (on a small city lot), and I'm a beekeeper.  I do have a place with a big lot which I have rented and had bees on; it would be a real stretch for a lawyer to blame a hive 150 meters away from people as being irresponsible.

You say the lot is only 700 sq meters?  If my math is right, that is only 0.143 acres; that really is a small lot to be keeping bees on IMO.  My advice would be to move to a more rural location and ask the landlord if they would allow bees.  Most landlords love a good renter that pays on time and are willing to work with you as long as you don't put them at some legal risk.  Good luck with your bee keeping.  It is addictive.     
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: Lone on December 10, 2012, 01:32:05 am
Chinsk,

Accomodation and animals have been a problem in Melbourne for a long time.  You could write out a comprehensive case detailing the low risk and the support of the neighbours, and any other pro bee information you can find, but some people are very stubborn. Sometimes though, the effort of a well researched argument will pay off.  Could you get some advice from the rental tribunal also or your estate agent?  Also, find out if there are any council restrictions where you are.

When I was having trouble getting bees into town here, the DPI said they would write to the council if necessary.  However, your landlord can place any such restrictions he wants to on the property.

Unfortunately, the easy going disposition of many australians is mostly a thing of the past, and a change in attitude is going to involve educating the kids while they are still young enough to enjoy nature.

Lone
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: chinsk on December 10, 2012, 01:43:12 am
Thanks for the responses.
It is not a huge issue as a friend in nearby Macleod has offered his backyard for keeping bees. Just a bit surprising and disappointing really.
I have contacted the estate agent again and put forward that the neighbours were aware of my intentions and were looking forward to some local honey. Another neighbour already has a hive that is going well too.

The local council allows bees without permit or registration. Only need to register with DPI (which is currently free).



Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: Lone on December 10, 2012, 01:47:49 am
You could ask one of the adjoining property owners for permission to keep it there.  It would practically be in your backyard, and they'd get their honey supply.

Lone
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: BlueBee on December 10, 2012, 01:49:41 am
I like that idea too!
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: Lone on December 10, 2012, 03:12:01 am
Sneaky but legal.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: squidink on December 10, 2012, 07:01:54 am
I'm dodgy but I would just set up a hive. It looks like your neighbours are not going to dob you in. Just move the hive every 6 months when you get an inspection.. If you do get caught out just move it to your friends place.

Ben
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: deknow on December 10, 2012, 10:39:45 am
...don't know how things work down under, but perhaps if you had liability insurance you would get a different answer.
Deknow
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bud1 on December 10, 2012, 12:02:50 pm
I cant believe a person would try to make a landoner do something he doesnt want to do with his own property; hoss if it were me you would be on yo happy way. i run from 50 to 150 hives and most on other peoples property. and they ask for the bees. let it out that you have bees and someone will ask you to put some bees near them for polination. some people just refuse to be pushed, but on the other hand when asked nicely are mighty acomidating
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: S.Rummings on December 10, 2012, 01:19:05 pm
As a landlord, I am afraid I have to side with the landlord on this one. The fear of liability is pretty much the first reason for every "no" answer you get from a landlord. When evaluating special requests from tenants I apply a simple formula. I ask myself how much additional income will I receive by granting this request and what is my potential liability. If the income exceeeds the potential liability then the answer is yes, otherwise no. It is simply just a business decision. Not sure how things are where you live but people are sue happy in the US. Landlords are seen as having "deep pockets" even if it is not actually true and by asking permission you have made the landlord fully responsible for any potential liability.

The best solution is buy your own property where you can do whatever you want. You will always have to live under someone else's rules when you rent.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: chinsk on December 10, 2012, 04:34:01 pm
Ok thanks. It's not that big a deal. I am putting the hive on my friend's property.

I am also a landlord and a homeowner. Our home is currently being rebuilt hence we are renting, so the bees would have had to move in a few months anyway. Now they will stay put on my friend's land.

It's interesting to read about the fear of litigation come up a few times as a reason for a landlord's refusal. That culture of litigation and fear of litigation does not (yet) exist here down under.

I also did a little bit of online searching and couldn't find any example where a landlord had been sued over bees on a property.

It doesn't really make sense to me anyway. Does the landlord get sued if a tenant's dog bites the neighbour? I wouldn't think so.

I don't really want answers to those questions as it is off topic. But that could be a good thread starter elsewhere.

Thanks again for the responses. I am satisfied with my course of action.

 
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: johnauck on December 10, 2012, 06:33:23 pm

It's interesting to read about the fear of litigation come up a few times as a reason for a landlord's refusal. That culture of litigation and fear of litigation does not (yet) exist here down under.

I also did a little bit of online searching and couldn't find any example where a landlord had been sued over bees on a property.
 

I agree, there seems to be a perceived risk without much evidence. Did the landlord say that liability was the reason? May be they just don't like bees.

I reckon it would be very difficult to prove that it was one _your_ bees that stung someone. And it would have to be proven that you were negligent?

I would be interested to hear an opinion from a real lawyer.



cheers

john
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: AllenF on December 10, 2012, 07:43:52 pm
Check with the landlord and see if there is a policy you could get to relive him from liability.  Also, the landlord may just be deathly afraid of bees or worried that workers that he might have working there in the future may run into problems with them bees.   Or may have had to pay to have bees removed from one of his rental properties in the past and has a beef with honey bees.   Lots of possibilities why. 
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: Jim134 on December 10, 2012, 09:44:22 pm
Hi,

As per the Apiary Code of Practice I informed my Landlord that I would like to install a hive.
I explained that I was registered with the DPI and no permit was necessary.
I also explained the benefit of bees for the garden, and that the hive is not a permanent fixture.

To my surprise the Landlord declined my request for a hive on the property. (It's a single level detached house in Alphington, VIC on about 700 sqm - plenty of room and flora for bees).

Has anyone had any experience with this before or can offer some suggestions on how I might be able to persuade the landlord otherwise?

Luckily a friend has come to the rescue and has allowed me to start a hive on their property, but I would prefer to have bees in my own backyard.  :(

Thanks for your help!



This is NOT YOUR property the end............
   



                    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: chinsk on December 10, 2012, 09:47:05 pm
Thanks for that informative information.

The end it is.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: rawfind on December 11, 2012, 12:24:25 am
Thanks for that informative information.

The end it is.


Interestingly  imagine a court case suing for being stung, how would it be proven if it was your bee or someone elses that did the stinging?
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: chinsk on December 11, 2012, 01:00:12 am
Just heard back from the property agent that the landlord has changed their mind following further information regarding the hive and bees.

He has approved a hive in the backyard. :)

Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bernsad on December 11, 2012, 01:12:37 am
Woohoo!
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: S.Rummings on December 11, 2012, 10:55:20 am
First of all, great the landlord let you have your bees!


It's interesting to read about the fear of litigation come up a few times as a reason for a landlord's refusal. That culture of litigation and fear of litigation does not (yet) exist here down under.
...
It doesn't really make sense to me anyway. Does the landlord get sued if a tenant's dog bites the neighbour? I wouldn't think so.

The problem is that perception is reality. If someone has a fear it does not have to be valid or confirmed by a lawyer. Sometimes this can be fixed with education and it sounds like you did that.

Has a landlord gotten sued because a tenants dog bites a neighbor? Yes, many times here in the US.

Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bernsad on December 11, 2012, 06:58:09 pm
Has a landlord gotten sued because a tenants dog bites a neighbor? Yes, many times here in the US.
How do you justify that? It's not the landlord's dog, it's the tenants. Seems to me that's half the problem with the US, too litigous.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: BlueBee on December 11, 2012, 07:30:02 pm
Bernsad you are ABSOLUTELY right!!!!  And it’s probably more than half our problems.  :(

What's the immigration policies into Australia these days ?  :-D
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bernsad on December 11, 2012, 07:36:30 pm
Bernsad you are ABSOLUTELY right!!!!  And it’s probably more than half our problems.  :(
And here I was expecting an argument on that point.

What's the immigration policies into Australia these days ?  :-D
Pretty liberal. Unless of course you are a genuine refugee arriving on a boat with a hundred others and the boat is leaking and about to sink. Then we'll rescue you, place you offshore someplace like Nauru and take a few years to process your application. Welcome.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: Wonga on December 12, 2012, 07:07:50 am
    I know America has the reputation of being litigious and infested by lawyers - but I really don't think it is any different here in Australia - after all our legal systems are both basically the same, descended from the British, and have evolved down the same pathways. In my experience, lawyers here can come up with just as much weirdness and litigation with strange outcomes as in America.

As for immigrating here from America, plenty do, and welcome too, you can even get permanaent residency without having to loose your US citizenship, you still get to vote in Oz.  If you have enough money and bring it in with you, you can jump to the front of the queue as a business immigrant. Come on over, no Varroa (yet), and very little winter here either, most Ozbees are on honeyflow all year round. Our taxes are, I think overall less than yours too, and its a pretty easy going sort of place, Cricket is not compulsory -and ya get mangoes for Christmas .

Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bud1 on December 12, 2012, 10:59:24 am
been wanting to come down for years, but geof tells me gota leave my guns.
i for one detest the word lawyer, let alone the person smiling as he legaly cleans you out as hs pears chear him on (judges).
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: max2 on December 23, 2012, 04:44:37 pm
As a person with some rental homes, I'm sure the concern of the landlord is getting sued if someone has an allergic reaction in the neighborhood.  The landlord is the guy with the assets the lawyers can grab; a house.  If you try to put yourself in his/her position, is it worth risking a lawsuit to allow bees on the property?  I would say no too (on a small city lot), and I'm a beekeeper.  I do have a place with a big lot which I have rented and had bees on; it would be a real stretch for a lawyer to blame a hive 150 meters away from people as being irresponsible.

You say the lot is only 700 sq meters?  If my math is right, that is only 0.143 acres; that really is a small lot to be keeping bees on IMO.  My advice would be to move to a more rural location and ask the landlord if they would allow bees.  Most landlords love a good renter that pays on time and are willing to work with you as long as you don't put them at some legal risk.  Good luck with your bee keeping.  It is addictive.     

I had 6 hives on a lot of a similar size without any problems. Bees fly 5 km - I can't see the issue?
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: bigsting on December 24, 2012, 06:39:58 am
at least bee would be better than a dog or cat thay wont wee or poo on his carpet and tell him the bee are beter in a box than his house
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: BlueBee on December 24, 2012, 02:29:02 pm
Max how would you like to be sued for $5 million dollars if you’re the only one in the area with a bee hive and somebody dies from an allergic reaction?  In the USA, it happens!  Check out this link:  http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/family-sues-vista-over-bee-stings-death/article_ef946fb3-625d-5c0e-b2ea-e7fbbacea4f7.html (http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/family-sues-vista-over-bee-stings-death/article_ef946fb3-625d-5c0e-b2ea-e7fbbacea4f7.html)

Of course the lawyers didn’t go after the guy who owned the bees themselves, since bee keeping isn’t the most financially rewarding business out there.  Instead they go after the property owners and in this case the City.  (Good luck fighting City Hall…that is one battle the lawyers likely lost! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:)

Same kind of thing happens with dogs here.  If you rent to somebody with a dog and the dog attacks the mailman, meter reader, or neighbor kids, the landlord will get sued.  The average reward for a personal injury is now $60,000 here.

As another poster said, there really isn’t much cash flow in the rental business after you subtract out the higher taxes, property insurance, and maintenance.  If your landlord has a mortgage on top of all that, they very likely have a negative cash flow.  Any chance of a law suit is simply not worth the hassle on things that aren’t generating that much cash to begin with. 
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: prestonpaul on December 24, 2012, 07:38:28 pm
Just heard back from the property agent that the landlord has changed their mind following further information regarding the hive and bees.

He has approved a hive in the backyard. :)


Congrats  :-D
Just a thought, it may be worth dropping off your landlord and agent some honey from your next harvest as a thank you.
Title: Re: Landlord refusal to install beehive
Post by: max2 on December 25, 2012, 01:26:29 am
Max how would you like to be sued for $5 million dollars if you’re the only one in the area with a bee hive and somebody dies from an allergic reaction?  In the USA, it happens!  Check out this link:  http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/family-sues-vista-over-bee-stings-death/article_ef946fb3-625d-5c0e-b2ea-e7fbbacea4f7.html (http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/family-sues-vista-over-bee-stings-death/article_ef946fb3-625d-5c0e-b2ea-e7fbbacea4f7.html)

Within a 5 km radius we still have many feral hives in Australia. While my bees maybe very easy to identify ( the read socks are a dead give-away!) most people would never be able to pin-point the bee with the criminal streak. Dogs would be different deal.