Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS => Topic started by: D.Tregarth on May 12, 2009, 04:55:27 am

Title: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: D.Tregarth on May 12, 2009, 04:55:27 am
Hello everybody, my first time on the forum, so be gentle!

I've just started beekeeping and I would like very much to keep things as natural as feasibly possible.

Which is really hard to do when every apiculture I speak to really wants to help me get started, but think i am commiting beekeeping suicide by not having foundation, or not using chemicals or feeding syrup etc etc. Infact no-one here believes such methods exist.

I am planning on maintaining all my supers with the foundationless system, while the brood chamber is; for the moment, with foundation.

For me beekeeping is more about the bees than the honey (I dont eat much honey (as yet) and have no ambitions on selling any. I just find asocial species fascinating.

Therefore I am quite happy to leave uncapped honey for the bees to overwinter on. But I am unsure as to how much I should leave. (I appreciate that this surely depends upon numerous factors such as health of the hive, aspect of the hive and winter temperatures. But some vaguely rough idea would send me in the right direction.

If its worthy of note I have dadant hives 43 x 50 cm. Deep broad chambers and shallow supers.

Thanks in advance, and I am looking forward to learning much on this forum.

Dave
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Jim134 on May 12, 2009, 05:48:49 am
Hello everybody, my first time on the forum, so be gentle!

I've just started beekeeping and I would like very much to keep things as natural as feasibly possible.

Which is really hard to do when every apiculture I speak to really wants to help me get started, but think i am commiting beekeeping suicide by not having foundation, or not using chemicals or feeding syrup etc etc. Infact no-one here believes such methods exist.

I am planning on maintaining all my supers with the foundationless system, while the brood chamber is; for the moment, with foundation.

For me beekeeping is more about the bees than the honey (I dont eat much honey (as yet) and have no ambitions on selling any. I just find asocial species fascinating.

Therefore I am quite happy to leave uncapped honey for the bees to overwinter on. But I am unsure as to how much I should leave. (I appreciate that this surely depends upon numerous factors such as health of the hive, aspect of the hive and winter temperatures. But some vaguely rough idea would send me in the right direction.

If its worthy of note I have dadant hives 43 x 50 cm. Deep broad chambers and shallow supers.

Thanks in advance, and I am looking forward to learning much on this forum.

Dave


 Dave.........

       

         Give a location in your profile at well help a lot are you in the USA ??
     

         BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: D.Tregarth on May 12, 2009, 07:34:24 am
Ahh yes.... Sorry about that. I'm in the north of france. We have cold winters, but nothing crazy. A week of snow is reasonably exceptionel.

Hope that helps. :lol:
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Robo on May 12, 2009, 08:33:47 am
Have you considered the Warré Hive.   Sounds like it would fit you better.

http://www.apiculture-warre.fr/
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: D.Tregarth on May 12, 2009, 08:50:16 am
I had indeed considered a Warré hive,  and I probably will still make one to add to the others I have already (I'll also probably end up with topbar hives too). However I really like being able to manipulate the frames and see whats going on. And is hence why I began with Dadants.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Robo on May 12, 2009, 09:16:53 am
Oh, OK.   Bitten by the word "natural" again.   Everybody has their own definition and draws their own lines.  Many would consider removable frames and manipulations as not natural.

As far as your initial question,  you will need to check with some local beekeepers to see how much stores are required in your climate.   I know I like to have a complete full deep as a minimum in my location.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: D.Tregarth on May 12, 2009, 09:35:49 am
Am I mistaken in thinking I said? ....

> "as natural as feasibly possible"


However, if no beekeepers (at least no-one i've got in touch with as yet) utilise only uncapped honey as winter reserves (as they suppliment (i assume heavily) with syrup) surely regardless as to what they reserve, with regards to my question; I won't be any the wiser.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Michael Bush on May 12, 2009, 08:39:00 pm
In my climate, which is pretty cold, a typical Italian hive with a large cluster needs to weigh 100 to 150 pounds to get through the winter.  That is probably 75 to 100 pounds of honey.  Perhaps a better formula is that you need about a full capped frame of honey for every frame covered in bees when they are clustered, in addition to whatever the cluster is covering.

Further south where it is warmer it takes considerably less honey for the winter.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Robo on May 12, 2009, 10:24:35 pm
Am I mistaken in thinking I said? ....

> "as natural as feasibly possible"

That is exactly what you said and that is why I mentioned Warre hives as they are more natural because of no movable frames and minimal manipulation, compared to a Dadant, and are surely feasible.


Quote
However, if no beekeepers (at least no-one i've got in touch with as yet) utilise only uncapped honey as winter reserves (as they suppliment (i assume heavily) with syrup) surely regardless as to what they reserve, with regards to my question; I won't be any the wiser.

Not quite sure your point here.   Regardless of how or what your local beekeepers feed,  you will get a better idea from them of what your climate requires to winter bees than from others half way across the globe.    If they feed 100lbs of syrup, then 100lbs of capped honey would be a good starting point
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: TwT on May 12, 2009, 10:49:27 pm
Finsky (a old member who lives in Finland) always said honey is more valuable that syrup, he said take the honey and feed them syrup for winter. sorry cant help on how much they will need but thought I would pass that line on to you..
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: D.Tregarth on May 13, 2009, 03:54:24 am
Ahh I see, so there is a conserversion from syrup to capped honey. Excellent.

And Im sure I will end up with Warré hives, and an observation hive, and more... I can see how beekeeping could become slightly addictive.

Thanks alot chaps,

Dave.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Bee Happy on May 13, 2009, 02:41:42 pm
best of luck with them, many of the members here are long-time beekeeping veterans in both conventional and 'natural'/organic methods and at the risk of fawning I have to say I respect their experience and I do 'listen' when they have something to say.
I've got mostly langstroth  - all langstroth - hives with a topbar already built to house a swarm or two should I have the luck.

edit: I had intended to leave them lots of their own honey to winter on - though I'm in Florida - we have bouts of freezing (20F for a few nights) cold, where I am but it only snows about every 20-25 years.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: 1reb on May 13, 2009, 11:15:34 pm
welcome aboard D.Tregarth
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: lakeman on July 27, 2009, 09:34:26 am
Oh, OK.   Bitten by the word "natural" again.   Everybody has their own definition and draws their own lines.  Many would consider removable frames and manipulations as not natural.

As far as your initial question,  you will need to check with some local beekeepers to see how much stores are required in your climate.   I know I like to have a complete full deep as a minimum in my location.

Hey Robo, you say a ccomplete full deep, is that with you feeding, or not? I took his topic heading, >Re: Overwintering on honey reserves< to mean, he was not going to feed, but overwinter naturally.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Robo on July 27, 2009, 09:39:31 am
Hey Robo, you say a ccomplete full deep, is that with you feeding, or not? I took his topic heading, >Re: Overwintering on honey reserves< to mean, he was not going to feed, but overwinter naturally.

Not sure I understand your question.  A full deep, with or without feeding.  If you don't need to feed then don't.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: lakeman on July 27, 2009, 09:53:26 am
Hey Robo, you say a ccomplete full deep, is that with you feeding, or not? I took his topic heading, >Re: Overwintering on honey reserves< to mean, he was not going to feed, but overwinter naturally.

Not sure I understand your question.  a full deep, with or without feeding.  If you don't need to feed then don't.


Your answer to him as to what you left to feed overwinter, was a full deep. I wondered if you fed syrup in adition to that, or if that was sufficient?
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Robo on July 27, 2009, 10:40:00 am
A full deep is what I consider minimum in my area and you still need to keep an eye on it depending on the weather.  I don't feed syrup as it adds to much moisture to the hive.  If I have to feed, it is candy.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: bee-nuts on August 03, 2009, 04:40:58 am
ROBO

Sorry for butting in on someone else's thread but I am curious.   Where do the bees get the moisture needed to break down the candy if they have no honey left?  Or is it they don't need moisture to do it?  They must need water as well as the solid sugar candy, right.

Thanks

bee-nuts
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Robo on August 03, 2009, 11:46:36 am
bees give off a tremendous amount of moisture when they consume honey, that is why a lot of folks resort to putting an upper vent into the hive so condensation does not become a problem.
Title: Re: Overwintering on honey reserves.
Post by: Paraplegic Racehorse on August 07, 2009, 03:57:52 pm
If its worthy of note I have dadant hives 43 x 50 cm. Deep broad chambers and shallow supers.

My part of Alaska has a full nine month dearth (absolutely zero forage). I winter my Langstroth hives with brood boxes + two fully capped boxes of Dadant half-depth (which we in US call "Mediums"; nearly 60kg total honey). My Warres winter on brood box + two fully capped boxes (nearly 40kg total honey).

The more I read on French forums and beekeeping books, the recommended amount of honey/syrup for wintering, there, is 18kg (Warre), 20kg (Voirnot or Layens), and 25kg (Dadant or Langstroth). If you are in 12-frame Dadants, you might add one or two kilos to that weight estimate. It is better to have too much than not enough. Capped or uncapped makes little difference.

I can find no references for pollen stores for overwintering in FR, but I can in UK, US, DE, RU, and other areas. It appears you should be aiming for about 1kg pollen stores, if you are able to manipulate it. The most common way to be sure they have enough pollen is to simply add protein patties either in autumn after freeze, or in late winter/early spring before thaw.