Author Topic: Split Hives and why (Read 6888 times)

GSF · « **on:** March 02, 2014, 10:52:20 pm »

I split my hive three ways today. I have all three splits side by side. I had two 8f deeps and one 8f medium partially filled out. I went through the hive twice and could not find the queen. Realizing that that don't really mean yea or nay. As far as brood; I saw about 3 good frames of capped brood and a few with different size larva with some frames have a few capped brood. Mostly what I saw was backfilled with pollen and nectar. I also saw several, as in probably six queen cells. Another queen cell had been ripped and another one I'm not sure. I looked for eggs with the sun to my back. Didn't see any but never really have.

Have I really solved anything by splitting? Rookie mistake? Seems like I remember reading something about feeding 1:1 was best for comb building and 2:1 was best for food. Here are some pictures. Let me know your thoughts. Have I mistook a drone cell for a queen cell? I've seen emergency q cells but this is my first q cells. Last inspection I thought I had a q cell. I ask an older gentleman not far from me and he seem to think I still had a long time, and if it was the queen would get rid of it before it hatched.

I wanted to add pictures but I don't see that option for some reason.

bud1 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2014, 08:05:28 am »

you travling a little fast; the Louisiana boys have yet to se a queen cell and talked with both shawee and jp yesterday

sc-bee · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2014, 08:47:07 am »

Quote from: bud1 on March 03, 2014, 08:05:28 am

you travling a little fast; the Louisiana boys have yet to se a queen cell and talked with both shawee and jp yesterday

May need a translator for bud :) :lau: Eye shoooo u can reat tween da lions ---- did that cover it bud :)

Yea think you missed this one GSF. Do you have drones? No drones no mating. What you probably saw: drone cells or anticipation cell or what I call pop cells. Not a queen cell till it has a larvae or egg in it. And three brood frames split three ways ..... mighty thin in my book. IMO I would put it back together quickly if you just split it. Someone else will pipe in but I believe less than 48 hrs old (splits) no problem in the other pieces accepting the old queen again.

10framer · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2014, 09:31:58 am »

guys, he sent me pictures and there are some queen cells and one appears to have a hinged cap. i can't find any drones in the pictures. i'm not sure what he has going on because he says he has open brood.
i'm a couple hours due east of him and i'm only starting to find capped drone brood in my hives. i've been trying to calculate when i can have my first round of queens ready and it's looking like late april at best.
the amount of brood he's describing in a hive that size sounds a little light. maybe the bees are trying to replace the old queen, i just don't know.
gary, i think you split them too early. without being there i can't say for sure, though.

HomeSteadDreamer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2014, 12:31:47 pm »

Well Alabama is a big state so central is north of my latitude but I've got lots of capped brood and capped drones, open larva, eggs. Maybe he didn't get as cold. But being in the middle of Alabama I'd think he'd be behind us here in north florida.

10framer · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2014, 12:41:03 pm »

homestead that's what i'd think too but i had a guy in talladega tell me he had drones a few weeks ago. now i don't know the guy from adam so he could have been blowing smoke but i can't imagine why.

sc-bee · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2014, 03:04:23 pm »

I am on the boat too little brood for him to split deal also and I am not sure they would try to supercede without drones this time of year. But surely may be possible I guess. I usually just find a queenless hive this time of year. Maybe someone else has had this to happen, supercedure this time of year, with the same conditions?

What about what to do with what he has left. IMO I would still put it back together. May have to be a newspaper combine the longer you wait.

10framer · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2014, 03:52:15 pm »

i'd put it back together today before the cold front comes through and chills the brood.

sc-bee · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2014, 04:06:33 pm »

Quote from: 10framer on March 03, 2014, 03:52:15 pm

i'd put it back together today before the cold front comes through and chills the brood.

Wit u on that one......

buzzbee · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2014, 05:16:08 pm »

GSF,
to post photos you need to host them somewhere like
www.imageshack.com
or
www.postimage.org
and put the links in your post. Or you can always send the to
photos@beemaster.com
and let the mods know what post you would like them attached to.

bud1 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2014, 06:14:11 pm »

bout it steve you gona have yo carcass here in april

Joe D · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2014, 06:42:30 pm »

I'm about 80 miles north of the gulf, and I have lots of brood, workers and drones. Checked some hives yesterday, no queen cells, but lots of brood. One hive had moved up, I left some supers on. It had 1 deep with not much of anything in it. Next is a medium it had close to 8 frames of brood, then there were 2 shallows. The bottom one had six frames of brood, and the top one had 5. Those 3 supers also had honey and pollen. This hive is loaded with bees also, and these are 10 frame hives. Good luck to you all.

Joe

GSF · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2014, 08:13:29 pm »

I've been seeing lots (?) of drones. A week ago I saw around 10 enter and leave the hive in about 15 minutes. I may have missed this one but after seeing all those q cells, cells backfilled with pollen and sugar water, the small amount of brood, I figured it was probably risky either way. Well, it's 35 right now and breezy. Should I put them back together now? We have some blankets around them. The big split with the most bees have an 8f deep and an 8f medium. The other two are 8f mediums. There seems to be a lot of bees in all three. Let me know.

https://imageshack.com/i/0mcdyqj

https://imageshack.com/i/mwlg2aj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9jfddj

https://imageshack.com/i/0xgrm1j

Added photo links from a later post (Buzzbee)

10framer · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2014, 09:18:57 pm »

if it's already that cold i'd leave them alone.

GSF · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2014, 10:15:57 pm »

Yeah I got to thinking about that and had decided not to go that route. I had to jump off the internet and do some more remodeling work. As I was working I was re-thinking about what I had done and more so, why I had done it. I remember considering the cold weather to come. It was my assessment that the bees were plentiful enough to keep it warm. Time will tell. Also each hive was divided almost equal when it came to brood, pollen, and sugar water honey. I staged the honey/pollen/empty frames on the outside of the brood nest. From my limited experience (My bee keeping experience still rides the short bus to school) I'd say the worse that will happen is I will loose the two smaller splits. The best that will happen is I will have three new colonies.

It's given me a sick feeling thinking this may have been a big mistake. I'd hate to know I've brought harm to my bees. Then again, this is pretty much new to me. I've never had to make this decision before so I have nothing to draw on. I've encountered losses with almost everything new in the animal/plant kingdom.

Thanks again for everyone's honest, frank, and up front answers. I hope you all wrong :-D and I'm right :-D :-D

modified (additional comment) I made sure I put at least one capped queen cell in each hive. I said 8f mediums, I should have said 8f deeps. Sincerely folks, thanks for your honest opinion.

10framer · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2014, 10:32:33 pm »

if they didn't fly much today and you split them fairly evenly you may be ok. if most of the bees went back to the original location then the brood in the other two may get chilled. ray is pretty far north of us and has bees ready to swarm so you never know.
last year the clover in butler ran a few weeks behind the clover in phenix city so i may be in an odd geographic pocket out there.

sc-bee · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2014, 11:05:46 pm »

If you indeed have a cell in all three splits and drones you may indeed come out smelling like a rose and egg on our face :-D I indeed hope so :th_thumbsupup:

capt44 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2014, 12:21:01 am »

When I make a split I usually don't look for the queen.
I just wait 5 hours or so and listen to see which hives are loud and which ones are quiet.
A queenless hive will be louder most of the time.

johng · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2014, 08:48:45 pm »

If you saw drones before you split you should be ok. Its supposed to be nice again by this weekend. Early splits are always at the mercy of the spring weather. I've got virgins that need to mate next week too so I'm pulling for ya. LOL

GSF · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2014, 10:08:52 pm »

Hey Capt, All three of mine have bee fairly quite. It seems I remember reading if a hive was queenless but had a capped queen cell they didn't consider themselves queenless. I got home before dark and walked out to the hives. I stuck my finger on the landing board by the entrances. On the two smaller hives immediately I had a guard bee trying to sting or chase my finger off. The middle hive was just humming along. My guess is if the queen is still there she's in the middle one.

Thanks for the rooting johng. I plan to keep everyone posted. I've been concerned about the mating flight. I hope the weather's in our favor.

hjon71 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2014, 03:58:40 am »

Question:
Is it normal to split 1hive to 3? How does an early split affect the honey production? I assume not as much as allowing swarming?
OK so 3 questions, sue me ;)

T Beek · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2014, 06:27:58 am »

My prediction…..based on too few brood frames for 3 'early' splits…….? No visible eggs, queen not seen, drone cells likely mistaken for queen cells…….Survival is questionable……sorry. Honey? Likely nonexistent….for any harvesting this year I suspect.

Perhaps if 'new' queens were introduced to the queenless splits, success would be more assured. Although 'if' drones are flying it may still work out. I give it a 20 % chance that any will survive.

GSF · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2014, 07:25:52 am »

Hey T Beek, Did you look at the images on my link? If not look and tell me your opinion. I may have missed it but I'm certain I had a number of queen cells, at least 5 or 6. (not all pictured). I also had more drone cells than queen, most dcells on the bottom of the frames.

Probably a rookie mistake but I figured I was against the wall with a short fuse no win scenario and would have lost bees anyway. I'm thinking maybe 3 weeks ago I took a quick look and saw a queen cell. Next good warm spell I'll check again. If things don't look good (no queen, qcells, larva, brood) I'll do a newspaper combine and put them back together.

I was hoping to get a little (very little) honey this year but overall my plan was to make bees. This June will be the first year mark for me. Thanks.

T Beek · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:14:40 am »

Sorry :embarrassed: I wasn't able to access the link, techNOpeasent that I am :laugh:. My concern is that you 'saw' no eggs prior to making the splits. Splits need 'resources' to survive and thrive, brood in various stages, 'some' eggs (if expecting them to 're' -Queen, lots of bees and plenty of food.

"If" those were queen cells from 3 weeks ago….personally I would have waited another couple weeks for any new queens to be mated (seems there are lots of drones in your area based on description) and start laying. Visible larva in various stages indicates a queen was there 'recently' but no eggs shows she's now absent (old queen swarmed? or killed during split) or new one hasn't begun laying…for any number of reasons.

Its not uncommon to have TWO Queens in a single colony in the Spring (a Mother and daughter), assuring for a better colony success 'if' the virgin queen doesn't survive mating and returning.

"Bee Math" is critical when waiting for a new queen to begin her duties. Once the cell has been opened, 16 days after formed, the queen can take up to a week sometimes to mate and return and then another week before she gets going, laying eggs in earnest.

You absolutely MUST find a way to SEE eggs. It is the best indicator for determining whether a queen is present and laying properly. I use one of those 'headband magnifiers' whenever in doubt.

hjon71 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2014, 09:48:52 am »

GSF- I can't see the image either. Link goes to home page.

10framer · « **Reply #25 on:** March 05, 2014, 10:29:21 am »

he sent me pictures and there are queen cells there. one looked like it had a hinged cap.
hjohn you asked about splitting 3 ways earlier. if i were splitting this time of year to avoid swarming i'd take the queen and a couple of frames with some open brood a frame of pollen and a frame (maybe two) of honey/nectar.
if were trying to increase i'd make as many splits as i though i could and have them all survive.
gary get a jeweler's visor that is lighted to look for eggs. i'm getting to the point that i can't see eggs without just the right light.

GSF · « **Reply #26 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:06:06 pm »

Observation;

Don't know if this means anything. This afternoon I noticed two of the hives, almost at the same time, had several workers at the entrance with their butts in the air fanning.

10framer · « **Reply #27 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:54:57 pm »

scent fanning.

GSF · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2014, 08:57:03 pm »

Does that mean a queen's in there? Or are they just trying to draw the crowd in?

10framer · « **Reply #29 on:** March 05, 2014, 09:45:37 pm »

i would bet on queens since you're a few days in.

GSF · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2014, 01:11:47 am »

If that's the case I'll watch for the other hive to do the same thing. Then on to the next step. From what I can tell on the weather, although not ideal, it won't be impossible to mate.

One thing I haven't seen is a bunch of dead brood outside the entrance, saw a few. The birds may have got there before I did.

I think I figured out the image thing with the pictures so I'll try again;

https://imageshack.com/i/0mcdyqj

https://imageshack.com/i/mwlg2aj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9jfddj

https://imageshack.com/i/0xgrm1j

T Beek · « **Reply #31 on:** March 06, 2014, 07:49:19 am »

Quote from: GSF on March 06, 2014, 01:11:47 am

If that's the case I'll watch for the other hive to do the same thing. Then on to the next step. From what I can tell on the weather, although not ideal, it won't be impossible to mate.

One thing I haven't seen is a bunch of dead brood outside the entrance, saw a few. The birds may have got there before I did.

I think I figured out the image thing with the pictures so I'll try again;

https://imageshack.com/i/0mcdyqj

https://imageshack.com/i/mwlg2aj

https://imageshack.com/i/e9jfddj

https://imageshack.com/i/0xgrm1j

One of the best things about having multiple colonies is to observe their differences as much as their commonalities. Scent Fanning (come here behavior) at one hive may not be observed at another at the same time. Each is operating its own time line.

10framer · « **Reply #32 on:** March 06, 2014, 09:19:46 am »

assuming you had queens emerging over the last day or two and that you have a decent drone population the timing for mating flights is in your favor. highs in the 70's starting saturday and lasting for at least 5 days. if i see drones next week i'm going to graft a few queens the following week and see how they turn out.

T Beek · « **Reply #33 on:** March 06, 2014, 10:21:09 am »

Quote from: 10framer on March 06, 2014, 09:19:46 am

assuming you had queens emerging over the last day or two and that you have a decent drone population the timing for mating flights is in your favor. highs in the 70's starting saturday and lasting for at least 5 days. if i see drones next week i'm going to graft a few queens the following week and see how they turn out.

10framer; Please start another post and let us know how this goes. I've always just let my bees raise their own queens by performing a variety of split methods, with an acceptable success rate IMO…..but have become very interested in the "many" different forms of raising Queens, especially since my focus has been gravitating toward NUC's as a means of accomplishing the goal of creating a "perpetual and self-sustaining" bee yard.

LOCAL BEES RULE! :)

GSF · « **Reply #34 on:** March 14, 2014, 09:15:47 pm »

UPDATE;

Okay gang, here's an update. I was planning to go into my hives Sunday when it is going to be in the 70's. However, "Periods of Heavy Rain" predicted. On the ride home this evening I'm looking at my temp and it's 71. 68 when I got home. So I went in anyway.

Just to jog your memory the big hive is the one in the middle, the smaller hives are sitting right beside it. The smaller are an 8f deep and the larger is an 8f deep with an 8f medium partially filled out.

Today none of the boxes had any eggs or larva. Very few capped cells and just a few drone cells on the bottom. However, I saw a new queen in each of the smaller hives. I did not see one in the bigger hive. It could be that she was there but due to the massive volume of bees I missed her. This one (that I couldn't find the queen in) was one of the hives I was referring to earlier in the thread that was fanning. So she just might be there.

The queen cells were capped on March the 2nd when I made the split. In the last week we've had warm and cool weather. Today sunny and in the low 70s. 70 and 71 Saturday and Sunday. Scattered showers (statewide?) tomorrow. Looking at the two queens my guess is that one of them is mated because she's a little thicker than the other one. The other one may just be a little younger than her. Too early for eggs?

I got to find the "bee math" chart and post it to my favorite places. I'm guessing I should take another look in maybe two weeks? I'll be looking for larva. If I find eggs I'll try to put a frame in any of the other ones if they don't have larva.

As most of you veteran beekeepers know I'm fairly new to all this only having bees since last Jun. I'm not just wet behind the ears I'm wet all over. Just so you'll know I can tell the difference between a drone and a queen. I appreciate any thoughts/opinions/suggestions any of you may have. Thanks.

(modification) The other queen I had was marked, these aren't.

10framer · « **Reply #35 on:** March 14, 2014, 10:49:28 pm »

Quote from: T Beek on March 06, 2014, 10:21:09 am

Quote from: 10framer on March 06, 2014, 09:19:46 am
assuming you had queens emerging over the last day or two and that you have a decent drone population the timing for mating flights is in your favor. highs in the 70's starting saturday and lasting for at least 5 days. if i see drones next week i'm going to graft a few queens the following week and see how they turn out.

10framer; Please start another post and let us know how this goes. I've always just let my bees raise their own queens by performing a variety of split methods, with an acceptable success rate IMO…..but have become very interested in the "many" different forms of raising Queens, especially since my focus has been gravitating toward NUC's as a means of accomplishing the goal of creating a "perpetual and self-sustaining" bee yard.

tbeek, i'll go through the hives tomorrow and if i see plenty of drones i'll start a thread and message you. i grafted some last year all of my breeders this year were mated in my yard last year and their mothers came from 3 different locations. hopefully i've got pretty good diversity going in.

LOCAL BEES RULE! :)

sc-bee · « **Reply #36 on:** March 15, 2014, 01:33:02 am »

28 days start to laying. March 2 it was capped (Usually around 8th day) Today is 15th 13 days+8 =21days. Could have been capped a few more days before you found it. So 7 more days would reach 28 days or could be a few more than 28 depending on how many days capped before you found it. Sometimes they go a little longer than 28days but a good rule of thumb most use. If not laying by that 28days some give another week after that probably no go. So I would think 10-14 days or so.

GSF · « **Reply #37 on:** March 21, 2014, 11:09:33 pm »

Okay, so here we are a week later and I'm back in the hives looking for queens, eggs, and larva. BAM! 3 splits 3 Queens! If you remember last time I went in the hives I only found two queens but the other hive was fanning. I saw what I would call misfiring. I had to look to find an egg every now and then, be danged if I didn't see some little curly larva in one of them, only about 3. My guess is they are working out the kinks before they start popping them out. I took 10framer's advice and got me some a jeweler's visor, makes a world of difference. I'll try to check them out again in another week.

One queen is fat! Of the other two one is medium and the other is somewhat slim. Different breeding schedules? When will they quit firing me up for being in the area?

Tomorrow I'll probably do another split - just kidding!

I'll go ahead and step out on a limb and say that my hive swarmed prior to 2 march. Everything was present in the hive (from what I've read) to make them swarm. Now all I got to do is find them :-X

I really did appreciate all the comments yall gave. I like to have the whole picture even if it's not always rosy.

10framer · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2014, 11:56:13 pm »

sounds good gary. i'm thinking you may have stepped into a supersedure instead of a swarm. march 15th is the earliest i've ever seen one but you never know. i wouldn't plan on getting a ton of honey this year but tripling up early isn't a bad deal. if they build up you can split off three nucs in july and go into winter with six (or more).

GSF · « **Reply #39 on:** March 22, 2014, 07:34:00 am »

Thanks Rob. I was thinking of the possibility of doing some splits.

GSF · « **Reply #40 on:** April 01, 2014, 08:04:52 pm »

Once again another update. Today I went into all three hives again to check on brood, eggs, and such. I've yet to see any eggs. I think I could if I took the frames away beeless and used my visor with my hood off.

So I tackled the big hive first. I was pretty disappointed because I only saw one side of a frame about 70% where I thought it should be with larva, maybe a couple capped cells. Couldn't find the queen to save my life. Looked over it twice. Bummed me out.

Second hive, BAM! Different stages of larva and some capped cells. Ol fat queen just wandering around.

Third hive, BAM! BAM! two or three frames of capped brood, larva, and the biggest prettiest ol fat queen you ever saw. I don't know how she got around.

Then I got to thinking. Initially when I first found the two queens in the hives on each side I noticed that there was a difference in sizes of the two. Then the time I found the third queen I noticed she was a lot slimmer than the other two. Today, the skinniest queen was bigger than the big queen was when I first saw her. So I'm thinking that the mating schedules were probably different and the biggest hive's queen is just a little behind the other two.

So, I'm calling two of the three splits a definite success and the other I say yea more than nea. I'll keep yall posted and once this is settled I'll quit bringing this thread back to life.

thanks again.

GSF · « **Reply #41 on:** April 05, 2014, 09:37:41 pm »

Okay, not so rosey for the third split - the biggest hive. Went in today to see if queen was laying. She's done got big and fat. About a nice a looking queen as you could dream for. However, nothing but drone cells. I saw some supercedure cells in the middle and on the bottom, vacant except for queens jelly.

So my guess it that she, being the last one, didn't get mated. Not knowing what I don't know I'll ask a rookie question. Is there any time that a queen lays drone only? She has never laid any other eggs prior to this.

If she is indeed not mated, will the drones she produced be unfertile as well? I remember reading something about this some where on an earlier thread.

The good news is, I know where to get some eggs.

10framer · « **Reply #42 on:** April 05, 2014, 10:50:26 pm »

the drones should be fertile.