Author Topic: Apartment Removal - 3 Stories up! (Read 9117 times)

SystemShark · « **on:** June 25, 2009, 10:24:13 am »

I finally got my first hive removal call so I am happy to get the experience.

I opened the cavity to see how deep back they went and started cutting the comb out. I couldn't find ANY brood and it was crazy honey packed... from reading some other threads I'm thinking that it might be queenless.. In which case I am in trouble because I don't have a queen to put in there.

I couldn't scoop / sweep out the majority of the bees because they were so far back but I did end up getting all the comb and I put the pieces in a hive. My frames are plastic foundation so I really couldn't secure them nicely but I set them up as even as I could with a frame of brood from one of my hives at home.

My hope is that the bees in the cavity decide to move up into the hive I set on top of the roof.

Maybe I can speed ship a queen in or get it from someone local. I'll check on them today. Any tips or ideas for me?

http://picasaweb.google.com/dapawlowski/ApartmentHiveRemoval

iddee · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2009, 10:35:33 am »

>>>>Any tips or ideas for me?<<<<

Yes, three.

1.. Pick an easier one next time.

2.. Go at it from the inside.

3.. Get wood frames.

:shock: :lol: :evil: :roll:

Leave the area open and check back in a day or two. Hopefully, they will be in the box or clustered around the queen. More likely, tho, they will abscond. A bee vac would be nice if they are clustered.

SystemShark · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2009, 01:25:14 pm »

well the frames are wood, but its that plastic/wax foundation sheet in there... I guess I could just take it out then have a blank wooden frame - maybe I'll do that.

I just got back from checking on them and there is allot of activity going in and out of the hive I set on the roof...however the bees are linking together in preparation for new comb I guess.

If there is no queen, will they just abscond? If i get another queen will they go to her?

G3farms · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2009, 06:39:15 pm »

Am I understanding you right, the comb you cut out, you put it in a frame that has plastic foundation in it?? :?

if that is the case, then yes you only need empty frames, place the comb into the frame and use rubber bands to hold it in. Try to keep the comb right side up when you put it in the frame. You did not find any brood at all, not even any eggs? how about queen cells? Make sure they don't have a queen and if not you can give them some eggs or purchase a queen.

Need just a little more info.

Good luck with them and let us know, thanks for the pics. That was a tough cut out and a bee vac would have surely helped.

G3

SystemShark · « **Reply #4 on:** June 25, 2009, 06:49:05 pm »

Quote from: G3farms on June 25, 2009, 06:39:15 pm

Am I understanding you right, the comb you cut out, you put it in a frame that has plastic foundation in it?? :?

if that is the case, then yes you only need empty frames, place the comb into the frame and use rubber bands to hold it in. Try to keep the comb right side up when you put it in the frame. You did not find any brood at all, not even any eggs? how about queen cells? Make sure they don't have a queen and if not you can give them some eggs or purchase a queen.

Need just a little more info.

Good luck with them and let us know, thanks for the pics. That was a tough cut out and a bee vac would have surely helped.

G3

For the frames.. I have wooden frames with a plastic sheet of waxed foundation in each. I took out 5 frames to make room for the comb I was cutting out of their hive. I held the comb up inbetween frames (with the plastic/wax foundation) as best as I could.. no rubber bands.

I'm fairly certain they are queenless.. no larva, no queen cells...some empty cells and some with honey (allot of honey).

I was thinking today that if I can collect the bees somehow in the hive...even if there is no queen.. then I might be able to add them to a swarm that I got a month ago. I know the swarm has a queen cause I saw her =)

Would the bees ..1 from a swarm and 1 from an established (wild hive in an apartment building with no queen) get along?

Kathyp · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2009, 06:56:33 pm »

you can do a newspaper combine.

when you do your next cutout, remove the foundation and take empty frames. place rubber band on frame end beforehand. that way you can cut the comb out, place it in the frame, and slide the bands over it to hold it. i think you'll find this works well. the bees will remove the bands later, or you can, or leave them.

you picked a tough one for the first! :-D

mgmoore7 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2009, 09:05:01 am »

I would suggest that before you do the next cutout, do a bunch of reading on this site so you know what you are getting into and what to take with you and have an idea of what to be prepared for.

Keith13 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2009, 04:52:51 pm »

Quote from: SystemShark on June 25, 2009, 06:49:05 pm

Quote from: G3farms on June 25, 2009, 06:39:15 pm
Am I understanding you right, the comb you cut out, you put it in a frame that has plastic foundation in it?? :?

if that is the case, then yes you only need empty frames, place the comb into the frame and use rubber bands to hold it in. Try to keep the comb right side up when you put it in the frame. You did not find any brood at all, not even any eggs? how about queen cells? Make sure they don't have a queen and if not you can give them some eggs or purchase a queen.

Need just a little more info.

Good luck with them and let us know, thanks for the pics. That was a tough cut out and a bee vac would have surely helped.

G3

For the frames.. I have wooden frames with a plastic sheet of waxed foundation in each. I took out 5 frames to make room for the comb I was cutting out of their hive. I held the comb up inbetween frames (with the plastic/wax foundation) as best as I could.. no rubber bands.

I'm fairly certain they are queenless.. no larva, no queen cells...some empty cells and some with honey (allot of honey).

I was thinking today that if I can collect the bees somehow in the hive...even if there is no queen.. then I might be able to add them to a swarm that I got a month ago. I know the swarm has a queen cause I saw her =)

Would the bees ..1 from a swarm and 1 from an established (wild hive in an apartment building with no queen) get along?

I am still not sure how you put the comb you cut out into the frames. Did you totally remove the foundation and then fit the combs into the frames? If you did how are you holding the comb into the frames with out it falling out?

Keith

SystemShark · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2009, 04:59:45 pm »

Gravity/pressure I guess. I'm sure its the the right way to do it but I don't know if the bees care or not.

I dunno how else to explain it... The comb pieces I cut out are "sandwiched" in between two frames with plastic/wax foundation.

So I took out 5 frames and where those frames would normally be are just open spaces in which I put the comb pieces. They are just held in there balancing between the two frames, one on either side.

Kathyp · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2009, 05:47:53 pm »

oh hey, doing these things is a learning process every time. just when you think you have a good handle on it, you find yourself face down in an attic hive. :evil: evaluate what worked and what didn't. do learn as much as you can from the mistakes and advice of others.

my top 3 questions before i start

1. do i have the skill to do this one. (sometimes i get that wrong)
2. do i want to do this one? (sometimes i get that wrong)
3. is my "stuff" together. the stuff is pretty important, because if you answer yes to 1 & 2, but fail on 3, it all falls apart.

G3farms · « **Reply #10 on:** June 26, 2009, 09:23:48 pm »

OK, lets get things started off right.
1. First of all you need some frames WITHOUT any foundation in it, just a plain ol' empty frame. Take the foundation out of some of yours, and leave some.
2. Take the comb that you cut out of the hive and cut it to fit inside of the frame, be sure to keep the comb turned the right way, same way it was oriented when you cut it out. The comb may not be long way to fit in the frame and you will end up cutting small chuncks to get it in place, don't worry about it the bees will fix it up.
3. Take several rubber bands and place them around the frame to hold the comb in place, these can be top to bottom or long ways, it will only take a few.
4. Place the brood in the center or a least together in the hive body and the frames of foundation on either side of them.
5. Not sure of you area what is blooming but you might want to consider feeding them some sugar water.

Hope this helps you out. With the comb just standing inbetween the frames the bees will build some wild comb and bracing, this will not let you pull the individual frames for inspection. At least you are not afraid to ask for help and that is a good quality.

G3

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2009, 12:59:39 am »

To elaborate, when doing a cut out for any hive that has been there over 12 months take 2 boxes and enough empty frames to fill each box. Some feral hives have huge brood chambers that are bigger than what can fit in 2 10 frame boxes. discard the drone comb, it will speed up the process.

SystemShark · « **Reply #12 on:** June 30, 2009, 11:06:24 am »

crazy learning experience this one... i guess it didn't have to be as complicated and tough as I made it. Should have planned better.

The bees just robbed all the honey from the box/hive I put all the comb in from last week and moved back into the wall.

So yesterday I took the box down and I ended up making a psudo beevac out of a 2.5 hp shop vac. I took the old filter out and put wire mesh around the inside working parts. Then cut a hole about 3 inch's square in the container that came with it..covered that with mesh and the suction seemed to be cut down quite a bit.

I just kept them in the vac until I got home (20~ mins away) and then sprayed them with some sugar/honey/water mixture to try and calm them down a bit, through the mesh. After I put a queen excluder wrapped in 1 layer of newspaper on top of a recent swarm capture. Dumped the bees in with a frame of brood and 5 empty frames..I left 4 frames of empty space because I didn't know how many bees I actually got and I wanted them to have some room to move around.

This morning I went to check on them and brought the 4 frames with me to add and the majority of them had left.. (I left the top open a crack) absconded probably. Its a shame but they were queenless and I didn't have another queen to try and work them that way. I have to finish getting the rest of the bees out of the wall today/tomorrow so maybe I'll have better luck. I'm thinking of trying to give them some honey and closing the top completely. I probably should have done that when I put them in there but they were flying like crazy after I dumped them in so I was hoping they'd want a place to stay and go in there.

mgmoore7 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 30, 2009, 01:59:03 pm »

Honestly, this is sad. Step back, slow down and learn and try again.

Kathyp · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2009, 02:11:27 pm »

i lost my very first cutout also. i am sure that it was my lack of experience in management, combined with being eager and doing it to early in the year.

learn from this and continue reading up on those done by the experienced. we have an entire section dedicated to equipment, technique, and questions. we are fortunate to have cutout masters here, who post their work for our benefit.

better luck next time!

SystemShark · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2009, 03:22:00 pm »

Do you think if I kept the top closed after I put them in that would have been better?

I'm set to go back Thursday to try and get the rest of them.

Kathyp · « **Reply #16 on:** June 30, 2009, 04:36:51 pm »

no queen? you'd be better combining them. you could give them eggs if there are enough bees and let them raise a queen. in my area, i'd add them to other hives. if they are leaving the box that's probably where they have gone anyway.

SystemShark · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2009, 01:49:22 pm »

oh that would be amazing. I havn't checked the other hives but if they left the empty box I hope they just went to another hive rather than just leaving to the abyss and death. I hope thats what happened.

I felt like crap all yesterday because of moores comment =(

wildbeekeeper · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2009, 05:32:43 pm »

moores comment wasnt meant to hurt but probably help more that anything..... there are alot of knowledgable people on here and someone here can help you or someone maybe even very near to where you live who can help you.....we all want to try and do things ourselves, but sometimes we jump too soon and end up with more work than needed. ask lots of questions and read a lot more and then ask more questions. When I first wanted to do cut outs i read a whole lot and my first ended up ok, but i still learned alot afterwards and even yet today......good luck!!

G3farms · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2009, 06:41:28 pm »

Everything is a learning experience and sometimes the curve is steep and sometimes it is flat. We all learn from our mistakes it is called experience. Even if you did loose this hive of bees it not that big of a deal, learn from it and move on to the next one, the only thing you lost was some of your time, but you gained heaps of knowledge.

I learned to do my first cut outs o 15 box hives I bought. Box hives were the forerunners of top bar hives, no frames and everything was stuck solid with propolis. I learned my lesson good on doing an inspection on a hive before you buy it. These were some fairly aggressive bees and I learned to work fast and smoothly, also learned how to drum bees (back before a bee vac).

Do some more reading, ask plenty of questions, and find someone in your area to beek with.

hang tough, your next one will be better.

G3

SystemShark · « **Reply #20 on:** July 09, 2009, 01:21:52 pm »

I really should start posting questions before I am all set to act... but things just happen too quickly it seems. Anyway I am about to head out to this site again - I got a call yesterday saying that they found ANOTHER hive in a nearby building that they want me to look at. So far I've made 2 trips with my bee vac trying to combine them with another hive. I am at about 80% loss as far as I can tell. There were allot of dead bees inside the top box I put them in and no one is eating through the newspaper.

I just read that when doing the newspaper combine you are supposed to put slices through it and smoke them so they try to get down and intigrate with the hive - I havn't been doing that. Also I've been trying to combine them with my 2 month old swarm. Instead of one of my overwintered / recentlly extracted / established hives.

So today I'm gunna switch tactics..no queen excluder, just single layer newspaper, put cuts in the news paper, and combine with one of the veteran hives.

Also my beevac, as effective as it is at getting the bees out of the exposed area... isn't as good when it comes to transfer. I have a 2.5 hp shopvac I got from lowes... removed the filter and placed wire mesh duct-taped around the working parts so the bees to get sucked in. I cut a whole about 3 inches square and taped on some vynl window screen to provide ventilation and cut some of the suction. I'm going to make another 3 inch square on the other side before I get started today. For removing the bees I spray them with sugar/honey syrup through the screening then open the vac and dump them, like I would a swarm, into the box.

Feel free to ream me a new one and tell me what an idiot I am. I havn't seen this "new" hive yet but I'll let you know what it looks like next time I update.

Kathyp · « **Reply #21 on:** July 09, 2009, 01:39:34 pm »

when you do the cutout, are you setting up the brood comb in a box? you should be able to get a lot of bees into the box and get the rest with the vacuum. if you are getting the brood set up and getting the queen in the box, you should have a very good chance of saving your cutout hives.

when i go, i take two deeps and 20 frames set up with rubber bands. also some 5 gallon buckets with lids. honey goes in the buckets, brood into the frames, junk comb into a rubbermaid tub with lid. when i'm done, i tape an entrance reducer over the opening and staple the boxes, bottom board, lid, etc. together and i am good to go. when i get home, the hive is basically set up and i just have to untaped it. in your case, you would then dump in your vacuumed bees.

i guess i'm not clear on how you are doing this. if you are just vacuuming up all the bees and not setting them up, i can see how you might be losing hives.

when you combine, you can spray all bees with lemongrass oil and sugar water...and/or smoke them. this masks the smell and gives them something to do. put 1 sheet of newspaper between hives, cut a couple of slits, and add box. they should do fine. give top hive an entrance by propping the lid a bit. i like to put a spacer frame between boxes with the newspaper on top of spacer, but if you don't have one, don't worry. it's a personal preference thing for me and i made a bunch of them for apiguard treatment.

Scadsobees · « **Reply #22 on:** July 09, 2009, 03:42:48 pm »

The vacuumed bees...can you tell how lively they are when you put them into the hive? Vacuums are notoriously hard on bees, at least for a while until you get it set up right. My first try with mine made the poor little bees (I tested on about 10 or 20 first!!) look like they went through a blender :'( .

Don't feel bad about losing a hive. You're gaining valuable information, saving some of the bees at least, and if you didn't the apartment complex would have emptied 20 bottles of raid in there anyway.

It sounds to me like they may have swarmed a week or 3 before, and the new queen hadn't had a chance to get set up very well yet. So you wouldn't find a big fat queen, young brood, or queen cells.

Rick

SystemShark · « **Reply #23 on:** July 09, 2009, 04:28:57 pm »

Just got back, I decided to leave the other one I had been working on alone for today. The apartment manager needs to talk to the higher ups to see if we can cut into the wall. Every time I remove a load of bees it seems like the next day there are just as many up there. I screwed up when I initially did the cut-out because I didn't bring empty frames with rubberbands. There was absoultly no brood build up in the comb that I removed..it was 100% honey - which lead me to belive it was queen less and then to the decision to start vacuuming them out as best I could, making multiple trips, then trying to combine the vacuumed bees with another hive at my house.
The bees seem fine when they are in the device from what I can tell.. during the trip I hear them buzzing evenly and I can see them moving around near the screen / vent. There are usually some dead ones on the bottom after I dump them into the box at home though.

I am trying a trap-out with the new hive. Its one building over and on the other side (in the same apt complex) 6 ft off the ground..they were building up in a bathroom vent that had some space inside and wasn't sealed properly on the outside. I was able to remove the vent and then put some screening over the metal tube so that the bees didn't go down the fan and into the apartment. The owner kept the fan going that pushes air out of the vent.

I setup my cone device that I was planing on using on the other one and the maintenance people set me up with a coordless drill, cement drill bit, and some cement nails to secure my board to the wall. Then we used some lockdown straps to secure a hive body on the top of a 6ft ladder. Inside I had 6 frames with wax pirco foundation..not built up yet..blanks. Then we used some silicon caulking to seal up the edges. I waited around 15-20mins to observe. The bees started to beard on the bottom just hanging there they didn't seem to be able to get in and the one hole at the tip of the cone just had bees coming out and none going in.

It looks like a good setup except for not having broodframe/established comb in the hive..and all the frames. I was wondering what kind of lure I could use.. any suggestions of what to put into the hive near a trapout to encourage them to go in? I'll check on it sometime this weekend and do something more official monday.

Thanks for the responses, you guys are great!

SystemShark · « **Reply #24 on:** July 15, 2009, 10:57:30 am »

well the trapout seems to have worked. I took a hive home x2medium boxes filled with the nicest bees ive ever seen. I picked them up ~9pm last night and took the tape/block off the entrace this morning they were busy checking out their new home..Hopefully I got the queen .. i think i did - or why else would the bees even go in there? I left the cone there overnight because I didn't have time to seal up the entrance again but Im gunna go finish it after classes today. The plan is to set up the vent the way it was before but put some silicone caulking around the edges to stop the entrance from forming. I'm a little concerned because the homeowner said it sounded like they were deep in the walls but I didn't see any evidence at all of comb build up... it looked like it was a swarm that recently moved in.

I ended up dropping my camera from 3 stories up so it doesn't work anymore... drn!

wildbeekeeper · « **Reply #25 on:** July 17, 2009, 07:07:45 pm »

its extremely rare to get a queen with a trap out. it also seems odd that the trap out only took 1 week... a typical trap out will take 6 weeks or more since you need to wait for any brood taht is developing to hatch and then get to the stage where they can exit their hive. you may want to keep an eye on that colony and leave the cone up awhile........ read up on the "how to do a trap out " post and do a sear h on here.....trap outs are not taht simple.