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Author Topic: Virgin queens and swarms  (Read 13796 times)

Offline don2

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 11:21:43 pm »
It is said when the bees are undecided which queen they want when there is several, the bees will hold all in the cells till they are all hatched then turn them loose and let the queens decide. This can even hold true after one or more swarms have left, if there is more than one queen and they are not going to swarm again. The workers do not open cells to feed the queen. d2

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2015, 03:27:41 am »
Keeping them in the cells keeps them from killing each other.
Jim
whats really going on--is yes the bees have the ability to release a queen at a earlier date
 from many cells in the hive for various reasons--most are common sense like they know which cells
got feed on the right schedule--superseder versus emergency cells-(bees will make emergency cells
 for many reasons -one is to hedge there beets that there will be a virgin to mate and take over the colony)

there have been times when i have bought queen cells to requeen with -or to populate matting nucs
this can be quite a bargain at $3 a cell--so one would think--most times its a 2-3 hour drive for the
cells--when i get to the same spot on route every time they start to hatch from the cells--so now i got virgin queens come out of the wood work--so i dont touch them -just flick them in and hope for the best---

there are ways to slow or excelarate hatching of cells-temp is the man factor--however if the bees want a favorite cell to open when they want it -is they slowly chew and nibble away at the bottom of the cell -it has a rough appearance to it --this is a good way to pick a ripe cell from a hive for splits or any reason --that cell that the bees are helping ever so slowly is the preferred cell by the bees--so the answer to this puzel keeps opnenig more doors
for keepers to become a better part of the hives they manage --remember --you cant decide if you are going to be a good beekeeper because no matter what the bees will decide for you--- :smile:--RDY-B

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2015, 03:50:00 am »
Keeping them in the cells keeps them from killing each other.
Jim
this is a good opportunity to point out what goes on in the hive when queen cells are present--
when queen cells are hatched -or realesd by the colony its always from the bottom-in other
words the hole the queen crawled out is at the tip of the cell--also when there is battle
between virgin queens-( mated queens dont bother with queen cells) its when a cell hatches -she then tears away at the sides of here sisters cells
and then stings them to death through the sides
so know we can use this as a guide as to what is going on in the hive by looking at the queen cells
and many questions can be answered-was there a new queen --was she the only one that survived
--this all maters -and is a tell tale sighn after prime swarms leave your hive qunlees and it has gone to
become a drone layer(what happen is what everyone says--the clues are in the hive) even further in
the complexity is after a cast swarm--some hives just keep casting the after swarms--whats going on
--the bees will give most obvious answers-- :cool: RDY-B

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2015, 01:51:19 pm »
Rdy b,
So how do you account for a hive that you can hear numerous queens piping for over 10 days and when you open the hive and totally disturb them that 11 queens hatch out, all within about 20 minutes? All that after this hive had the original queen removed and it swarmed 2 times after that and still had at least 11 queens.
Jim
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2015, 03:15:52 pm »
>It is said when the bees are undecided which queen they want when there is several, the bees will hold all in the cells till they are all hatched then turn them loose and let the queens decide. This can even hold true after one or more swarms have left, if there is more than one queen and they are not going to swarm again. The workers do not open cells to feed the queen.

This is just a swarm behavior.  Not supersedure or emergency queens.  Swarm cells tend to be different ages too, to help with this, but weather often causes situations where they haven't decided if they have swarmed enough yet and they are confining queens saving them for afterswarms.

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#letter9

"The first cell opened on the ninth. The young queen was lively, slender, and of a brown color. Now, we understood why bees retain the female captive in their cells, after the period for transformation has elapsed, it is that they may be able to fly the instant they are hatched. The new queen occupied all our attention. When she approached the other royal cells, the bees on guard pulled, bit her, and chased her away, they seemed to be greatly irritated against her, and she enjoyed tranquility only when at a good distance from these cells. This procedure was frequently repeated through the day. She twice emitted the sound, in doing so she stood her thorax against a comb and her wings crossed on her back, they were in motion but without being unfolded or further opened. Whatever might be the cause of her assuming this attitude, the bees were affected by it; all hung down their heads, and remained motionless.

"The hive presented the same appearances on the following day. Twenty-three royal cells yet remained, diligently guarded by a great many bees. When the queen approached, all the guards became agitated, surrounded her on all sides bit, and commonly drove her away; sometimes when in these circumstances, she emitted her sound, assuming the position just described, from that moment the bees became motionless.

"The queen confined in the second cell had not yet left it, and was heard to hunt several times. We accidentally discovered how the bees fed her. On attentive examination, a small aperture was perceptible in the end of the coccoon which she had cut to escape, and which her guard had again covered with wax, to confine her still longer. She thrust her trunk through the cleft, at first the bees did not observe it alternately thrust out and drawn in, but one at length perceiving it, came to apply its trunk to that of the captive queen, and then gave way to others that also approached her with honey. When satisfied, she retracted her trunk, and the bees again closed up the opening with wax.

"The queen this day between twelve and one became extremely agitated. The royal cells had multiplied very much; she could go no where without meeting them and on approaching she was very roughly treated. Then she fled, but to obtain no better reception. At last, these things agitated the bees; they precipitately rushed through the outlet of the hive, and settled on a tree in the garden. It singularly happened that the queen was herself unable to follow or conduct the swarm. She had attempted to pass between two royal cells before they were abandoned by the bees guarding them, and she was so confined and maltreated as to be incapable of moving. We then removed her into a separate hive prepared for a particular experiment.

"The bees, which had cluttered on a branch, soon discovered their queen was not present, and returned of their own accord to the hive. Such is an account of the second colony of this hive.

We were extremely solicitous to ascertain what would become of the other royal cells. Four of the close ones had attained complete maturity, and the queens would have left them had not the bees prevented it. They were not open either previous to the agitation of the swarms, or at the moment of swarming.

"None of the queens were at liberty on the eleventh. The second should have transformed on the eighth ; thus she had been three days confined, a longer period than the first which formed the swarm. We could not discover what occasioned the difference in their captivity.

"On the twelfth, the queen was at last liberated, as we found her in the hive, She had been treated exactly as her predecessor, the bees allowed her to rest in quiet, when distant from the royal cells, but tormented her cruelly when she approached them. We watched this queen a long time, but not aware that she would lead out a colony, we left the hive for a few hours. Returning at mid-day, we were greatly surprised to find it almost totally deserted. During our absence, it had thrown a prodigious swarm, which still clustered on the branch of a neighboring tree. We also saw with astonishment the third cell open, and its top connected to it as by a hinge. In all probability, the captive queen, profiting by the confusion that preceded the swarming, escaped. Thus, there was no doubt of both queens being in the swarm. We found it so and removed them, that the bees might return to the hive, which they did very soon.

"While we were occupied in this operation, the fourth captive queen left her prison, and the bees found her on returning. At first they were very much agitated, but calmed towards the evening, and resumed their wonted labors. They formed a strict guard around the royal cells, and took great care to remove the queen whenever she attempted to approach. Eighteen royal cells now remained to be guarded.

The fifth queen left her cell at ten at night; therefore two queens were now in the hive. They immediately began fighting, but came to disengage themselves from each other. However they fought several times during the night without anything decisive. Next day, the thirteenth, we witnessed the death of one, which fell by the wounds of her enemy. This duel was quite similar to what is said of the combats of queens.

"The victorious queen now presented a very singular spectacle. She approached a royal cell, and took this moment to utter the sound, and assume that posture, which strikes the bees motionless. For some minutes, we conceived that taking advantage of the dread exhibited by the workers on guard, she would open it, and destroy the young female; also she prepared to mount the cell, but in doing so she ceased the sound, and quitted that attitude which paralyses the bees. The guardians of the cell instantly took courage; and, by means of tormenting and biting the queen, drove her away.

"On the fourteenth, the fifth young queen appeared, and the hive threw a swarm, with all the concomitant disorder before described. The agitation was so considerable, that a sufficient number of bees did not remain to guard the royal cells, and several of the imprisoned queens were thus enabled to make their escape. Three were in the cluster formed by the swarm, and other three remained in the hive. We removed those that had left the colony, to force the bees to return. They entered in hive, resumed their post around the royal cells, and maltreated the queen when a duel took place in the night of the fifteenth, in which one queen fell. We found her dead next morning before the hive; but three still remained, as one had been hatched during night. Next morning we saw a duel. Both combatants were extremely agitated, either with the desire of fighting, or the treatment of the bees, when they came near the royal cells. Their agitation quickly communicated to the rest of the bees, and at mid-day they departed impetuously with the two females. This the fifth swarm that had left the hive the thirtieth of May and fifteenth of June. On the fifteenth, a fifth swarm cast, which I shall give you no account of, as it showed nothing new.

"Unfortunately, we lost this, which was a very strong swarm, the bees flew out of sight, and could never be found. The hive was now very, thinly inhabited. Only the few bees that had not participated in the general agitation remained, and those that returned from the fields after the swarm had departed. The cells were, therefore, slenderly guarded. The queens escaped from them, and engaged in several combats, until the throne remained with the most successful."--Francis Huber, New Observations on the Natural History of Bees, Letter IX
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2015, 07:24:33 pm »
Good reading Michael, TY for posting that.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2015, 10:58:01 pm »
Thanks Michael.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline chux

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 09:49:27 am »
Thanks so much, Michael.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 10:02:02 am »
Get an observation hive in the living room and let it swarm and you get to watch all of this... :)
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2015, 10:16:08 am »
I have one :)
   My wife allowed me to replace one of the front windows with a hive..  I have not allowed them to swarm, but I have pulled a small nuc off of it with the old queen, and we are watching to see how the developing queen cells proceed.

http://www.outyard.net/observation-hive.html
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2015, 06:08:46 pm »
That is cool, but you will miss most of what happens with three frame thick hives...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2015, 11:16:40 pm »
agreed.. the price I was willing to pay to have a sustainable OB hive.  It has so far, proven to be as manageable as a nuc or standard hive. Well worth the loss of vision beyond the first frame.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline GSF

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2015, 06:34:54 am »
Great reading Michael
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2015, 06:41:45 am »
Nice job Scott. I'm sorry to have to tell you, in a few months, that hive will no longer belong to you. Your wife will probably take control. Mine did after telling me that "your not putting that thing in my house".  The good part of that is, she started working with me when I worked on the observation hive and now she often held with my main hives. Last week she even helped wax 30 old plasticell frames.
I built my observation hive with 3 single deep frames. It did not take very long for them to swarm so I removed the side boards and replaced them with wider boards and made it 2 medium frames deep and 4 frames high.
It works much better.
Enjoy your new hive.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2015, 06:42:40 am »
Rdy b,
So how do you account for a hive that you can hear numerous queens piping for over 10 days and when you open the hive and totally disturb them that 11 queens hatch out, all within about 20 minutes? All that after this hive had the original queen removed and it swarmed 2 times after that and still had at least 11 queens.
Jim
whats going on is cast swarms--after the prime swarm-or a false swarm--as far as the piping goes
i have placed fresh orders of queens at my night stand and the piping means nothing other than something
made that noise--what i see is what the hive has tought me--I AM very successful making a living from the bees as
i see there needs-older and out of date wisdom's are heart warming and deserve there due--however
dont beat the farm on the teachings  of years gone by--RDY-B

Offline OldMech

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2015, 09:21:46 am »
and the piping means nothing other than something made that noise--


   You might want to re think that. Look it up, you'll be surprised how much meaning the piping has.


i see there needs-older and out of date wisdom's are heart warming and deserve there due--however
dont beat the farm on the teachings  of years gone by--RDY-B


   I guess I am not sure what that means exactly...  I still run my hives exactly as my mentor taught me to back in 1977.. maybe that does not qualify as days gone by?
   The only major thing that has changed is treating for Varroa.. The minor thing that has changed is that we no longer dump as much stuff into the hive..  the philosophy that we can cure anything with a few chems now seems to be that we can KILL anything with a few chems...
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2015, 03:37:57 am »
 **The only major thing that has changed is treating for Varroa..**

 AND-the queen stock itself- swarms from days gone by would fill a whole bushel basket--these days the big question is --is it as big as a football--varroa has set the gene pool back to the starting gate for survivor stock-and this means

what these days--the survivors your trying to place your beats on are from the modern day gene pool-they have been chosen for traits for easy management--less swarming-big clusters-this has changed the whole dynamic of
keeping bees for a( hobby )or a living--yes its nice to watch bees fly in and out of a hive -to your hearts content--perhaps its being robed whats the difference--business is booming or so it seams--there has been so many changes my friend
--I argue a bit but i dont fight it --its here the new breed-i know lot of keepers that cant accept the changes that are
necessary for the beekeeping industry to survive-its already turning towards big ag and outfits like paramount farms acquisition of a large beekeeping outfit-they say they are going to bring beekeeping to a new level--
they have adds and for a position requires college credentials--how many college grads are going to waste that on a beekeeping careers many things are changing ---every warm hearted soul wants to keep the onorable
craft of bees a live-i dont think the industry can reflect on the past for answers in the future--big ag is the
way the change will go-whether hobby keepers can maintain a gene pool that is not polluted or not --the next big catastrophe is how far from to day --who knows the answer to that-RDY-B

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2015, 09:18:02 am »
>dont beat the farm on the teachings  of years gone by--RDY-B

The bees haven't changed.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2015, 03:10:44 am »
Quote from: Michael Bush link=topic= :rolleyes:#msg405002 date=1430741882
>dont beat the farm on the teachings  of years gone by--RDY-B

The bees haven't changed.
thats a pretty open statement--i wish i could agree that the bees have  not changed -from the multiple
forces that guide there existence--these are not pets we  are talking about -in fact they are LIVE---STOCK
nothing is in a vacuum my friend -there is change in a continuos motion on this planet--BEES INCLUDED
 the need to observe these changes is whats driving the positive quests for the bees benefit  :happy:
 :rolleyes: RDY-B

Offline OldMech

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Re: Virgin queens and swarms
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2015, 11:44:51 am »
What has changed, is the uses of insecticides created by humans. THe bringing together of species that also transmits diseases and pests.. the shipping of bees from one side of the country to the other, which spreads all of those things even worse...
  The bees?  They are still the same bees. They may have different lines, but they are still kept in exactly the same way that they were thirty eight years ago, with the caveat that once in a while I run OAV through the hives.. 

   What other differences are there?   I cant think of many...  OH!  I know!  I can use rigid 2" foam on top of the hive now instead of packing a box with hay for insulation?  Does that count as different? We used to use "felt" paper, and now we can only get tar paper..   The smoker used to be made of copper?  When the planes sprayed we used to go out to clean out dead hives and restock them with splits...  dont have to do that any more.....

   If the bees are different, they dont show it in the method I use to manage them.  37 years ago, the bees we had were mutts.. That is the extent of my knowledge, so i cannot go beyond that. German bees and Italians usually. A combination of bees brought over here from...  EVERYWHERE immigrants came from...    What is it we have today?
    I personally have mutts..  they are mutts because they open mate..  I really dont care what bees you have, somewhere in their background they have been open mated, and they too are mutt's. If you have imported queens from Slovenia then you MAY have relatively pure Carniolan bees..  give them a few years and they too will be mutts.

 So what was the point you wanted to make about swarms? We dont have many feral swarms any more, the mites have killed most feral hives. They die because of a pest we introduced to them.  So in that regard, the swarms that issue are smaller because they come from beekeepers hives.. hives that are being managed to prevent swarming, so I would REALLY hope they were smaller..   It has nothing to do with different bees.  I do not believe for a moment that the bees are different. Some of them may have taken a different route to get here, but in the end, they are the same.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

 

anything