Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: CapnChkn on December 19, 2011, 03:59:55 am

Title: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 19, 2011, 03:59:55 am

I found a jar of stuff used to build big muscles. I looked the ingredients over and it looked pretty good for feeding the bees. I'm not thinking of dropping 20 bucks for the stuff, but what do you think?

Wheat Protein Isolate
protease
elastase
trypsin

Sweetners
sucralose
Neotame
acesulfame potassium

soy lecithin

The jar says 20 g of protein per 24 g serving. Do you suppose the "Wheat Protein Isolate" would have Gluten in it, and is Gluten a problem for bees?

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Michael Bush on December 19, 2011, 04:54:10 am

None of those sweetners are good for bees... they need sugars.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: BlueBee on December 19, 2011, 06:11:50 am

CapnChkn, I asked the same question a while back and was shot down. However being stubborn as I am, that doesn’t mean I’m not going to try it anyways for spring buidup :)

Some Whey brands have more sweetners than others. The stuff I buy for myself has almost no sweetners. I’m not 17 anymore and don’t need the extra calories of sweetners in my Whey. You’ll find some brands of whey with about 140 calories per serving (25 grams of protein/serving) and other will have 300 to 400 calories. I stick with the low calorie brands.

Most whey has an amino acid profile that covers all the essential amino acids and then some. The stuff I use has these.

L-Alanine
L-Arginine
L-Aspartic Acid
L-Cystine
L-Glutamic Acid
L-Glutamine
Glycine
L-Histidine
L-Isoleucine (BCAA)
L-Leucine (BCAA)
L-Lysine
L-Methionine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Proline
L-Serine
L-Theanine
L-Tryptophan
L-Tyrosine
L-Valine
L-Homearginine

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: jaseemtp on December 19, 2011, 10:08:25 am

I had the same question and recieved mixed responses. I was given a recipe on using this in fondant but I have not tried it. Like CapnChkn stated it to expensive to use but I had some in the pantry that was about to expire and figured what the heck why not feed it to the bees.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 19, 2011, 02:33:55 pm

Thank you everyone! What does anyone think of using a Wheat base product?

Everything in the first set are proteins. I don't know of any that might poison the bees, so I'm just accepting they're part of life in general. The sweetners are what's getting me, are any toxic to bees? The Lecithin is part of the HBH recipe, so I'm taking my guess at "Ok."

It also has "natural and artificial flavors," which only tells me they may have ground up a tree in New Guinea to get it. I would guess the bees would either love or hate the strong smell.

Yessir Micheal! I feed them sugars. I just spent a week thinking I had come to a good idea by inverting the sucrose to simpler sugars so I could get syrup with less moisture on them while I can; to discover using the citric acid will make HMF...

BlueBee, you're talking about the liquid left behind after they press curds, right? Or is this a brand of stuff? My brother would probably know about all these supplements, I'm 6'1" and 176 lbs. All Muscle...

jaseemtp, Zackly! The superman store down the road throws this out on occasion. Hmmm.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 19, 2011, 06:26:28 pm

xxx quote author=CapnChkn link=topic=35591.msg296522#msg296522 date=1324281595]

sounds not good at all...

Wheat Protein Isolate ... Something made from wheat and purified

these are enzymes which split proteins
protease
elastase
trypsin

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 19, 2011, 06:36:19 pm

[quote author=BlueBee link=topic=35591.msg296525#msg296525 date=1324289some. The stuff I use has these.

L-Alanine
L-Arginine
L-Aspartic Acid
L-Cystine
L-Glutamic Acid
L-Glutamine
Glycine
L-Histidine
L-Isoleucine (BCAA)
L-Leucine (BCAA)
L-Lysine
L-Methionine
L-Phenylalanine
L-Proline
L-Serine
L-Theanine
L-Tryptophan
L-Tyrosine
L-Valine
L-Homearginine

[/quote]

bees need 10 essential amino acids in certain relations. That catalogue does not help.

Read from google "protein content and amino acid profiles of honey bee collected pollen".
Australia 1996

if you feed protein to bees, use yeast and soya flour mixture + irradiated pollen to make stuff palatable.

Dry yeast 50%
Soya flour with fat 30%
irradiated pollen 20%

no idea to feed to bees some stuff what you do not know what it is. These kind of stuffs become old and get bitter taste.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: BlueBee on December 19, 2011, 07:25:11 pm

Finski, too many numbers for me to type in the proportions of the proteins in my whey. Here’s a link of with proportions if anybody wants to analyze them. http://www.twinlab.com/product/100-whey-protein-fuel%C2%AE (http://www.twinlab.com/product/100-whey-protein-fuel%C2%AE)

Finski, I AM going to follow your advice with most of my bees (Yeast, Soya, etc). However I have spare bees and I have spare whey, and I like to experiment :) I’ll probably experiment with the Whey on some of my nucs.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 19, 2011, 10:11:35 pm

dont think what you have would be best for you-with that said we can explore the benefit of using
a protein isolate in combination with other ingredients for a balanced nutrition -the protein isolate will allow
you to raise the protein levels of a supplement -and it is this very high levels of protein that allow you to add
ingredients for aid in consumption -basically sugar or honey--most of the time it takes atleast 50% sugar or honey
for the bees carbohydrate consumption to aid in the processing of protein--thats why beebread is about 50-50
honey and pollen-so if your formula specs out at 50%protein and you add 50% honey or sugar-your protein level
will be at 25% protein with 50% sugar for the benefit of carbohydrate and consumption

the protein benefit is achieved with the correct amino acid profile required by bees-with this being said if the profile
exceeds the bees needs it is just waste material they poop out any way-so the balance is essential--we have had great success using
soy isolate as a protein booster with our formulas-- :) RDY-B

Table 1: Essential amino-acids for honey bees

Amino-acid
Minimum required % of amino-acid in protein digested
Threonine
3.0
Valine
4.0
Methionine
1.5
Leucine
4.5
Iso-leucine
4.0
Phenylalanine
2.5
Lysine
3.0
Histidine
1.5
Arginine
3.0
Tryptophan
1.0

  If one of these essential amino-acids is not present in the amount required by the bees, then the bees cannot fully digest as protein all the protein they have eaten. For instance, if one of the amino-acids is required at 4% and is only available at 3%, then only three-quarters of the total protein consumed can be utilized by the bees, as body-building protein ;)

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 20, 2011, 05:21:46 am

Well, in general, life runs on fuel, in this case sugar, and all the bits and pieces are joined together by enzymes. Another name for the enzymes is proteins. Proteins act as catalysts in the body to get the chemical reactions useful to build, destroy, and otherwise manage the functions. So if the proteins are not harmful to this life-form, they would just be burned as fuel, or excreted.

It's going to take a lot of reading and thinking before I can actually understand all that info there Rdy! I've actually just been using the recipe I've chunked together (http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/files/pollensub.html). It seems to work, when they're hungry enough. Since I've never used protein supplements before, I'm basically on virgin ground.

I realise the bees would prefer whole pollen, but I don't have any. I think we're going a little nuts trying to satisfy the nutritional dynamics instead of feeding them. If you think about it, bees would have all the nutrition bees would need, though not the roughage, and in the right proportions.

In other posts I've seen the term "Soy Isolate," but never really gave it any thought as the only soy product I can find is plain Soy flour. I tried to find dried egg yolks, but you might just as well be asking for "heartwood cedar lumber." Since my recipe gets hard as a brick, I got the idea to use glucose instead of sucrose, but Invertase seems pretty expensive. And a Lipid.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Michael Bush on December 20, 2011, 06:09:22 am

>Another name for the enzymes is proteins.

Enzymes are all proteins, but proteins are not necessarily enzymes by any means. Most are not. It's the same relationship as squares and rectangles. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle may or may not be a square...

Amino acids are used by organisms to make enzymes and other proteins. Some amino acids some organisms can make if they have the right "parts" and some they cannot manufacture and must have in their diet.

Enzymes that an organism needs are usually manufactured by that organism from amino acids. They do not usually come from their diet.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 20, 2011, 02:03:06 pm

**In other posts I've seen the term "Soy Isolate," but never really gave it any thought as the only soy product I can find is plain Soy flour. I tried to find dried egg yolks, but you might just as well be asking for "heartwood cedar lumber." Since my recipe gets hard as a brick, I got the idea to use glucose instead of sucrose, but Invertase seems pretty expensive. And a Lipid.**

CAPN-If i where feeding a small number of hives-i would just use mega bee -however-if you need sources
and more info i can point you in that direction-here are some sources--
http://www.eggstore.com/poweggyol.html (http://www.eggstore.com/poweggyol.html)

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/soyproteinisolate4lb.aspx (http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/soyproteinisolate4lb.aspx)

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedeggyolks50lb.aspx (http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedeggyolks50lb.aspx)

:) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 20, 2011, 02:37:21 pm

**It's going to take a lot of reading and thinking before I can actually understand all that info there Rdy! I've actually just been using the recipe I've chunked together. It seems to work, when they're hungry enough. Since I've never used protein supplements before, I'm basically on virgin ground.**
http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/files/pollensub.html (http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/files/pollensub.html)

capn-try adding OILS at 6% V or W-best would be 50/50 saflower and corn oil-this will keep the mix moist
;) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 20, 2011, 03:39:52 pm

I guess I've opened a can of worms. But, Hey Guys! I'm a worm farmer! Ba-Dum! Chishhh!

Yeah, we're splitting hairs, a long chain protein.(http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/pictures/misc/smile.gif)

Finski Sez:

Quote

these are enzymes which split proteins
protease
elastase
trypsin

The way I understand it, Proteins supply the Nitrogenous compounds. If any compound which is not toxic or has a metabolic by-product that is toxic is ingested, it would be broken down into it's components and utilised either as a building block or as fuel. An obvious example of toxic proteins would be the venom.

The organism then would line up it's RNA by use of enzymes, to lay out the form the components, the amino acids, would then use to create the new compounds in the system. I would imagine since reducing the molecule to it's simplest forms then reassembling them would be unnecessary and waste energy, that the chunks of the molecule would then be assembled into the finished product.

If you eat something you get off the shelf, read the ingredients and see "Natural flavoring." You could be eating the original source for that food or something from the strangest source you can imagine. By law "Natural" simply means it wasn't cooked up in a test tube. "Organic" however means it was put together the old-fashioned way, hard work, and love.

So my question is not, "Would this work better than the real McCoy?" Rather, "Why wouldn't this work?" My first impression is the sweetners would break down to toxins. The unused Proteins would simply be used for fuel or excreted. I have an image in my mind of the Wheat glutens giving the bees chewing fits and gas. I suppose if Humans had developed a taste for pollen, it would be an industry and the source for our protein, not to mention the focus of our food breeding programs.

Rdy, Thank you! I've been working on this from the perspective of "Bootstrap Business." It's true enough that I'm working 3 colonies right now, and buying ingredients in bulk would be pointless. Collecting pollen would be better, but we had a dearth this summer, and little or nothing the last few months. I'm still more concerned with making bees rather than Honey. I was thinking Canola oil, but Safflower and Corn sounds good.

Keep the good info coming folks! Synthesis Reconciles!

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 20, 2011, 05:17:35 pm

**So my question is not, "Would this work better than the real McCoy?" Rather, "Why wouldn't this work?" **

its not that it wouldn't work-its more of its not what you would want-there is no shortage of formulas
for beneficial feeding supplements-its the whole package that needs to be accounted for-this includes
cost and availability -by the time you get these sourced your bang for the buck is out the window-
but there are many isolates that can provide protein source -as you have found out they have to
be compatible to mix and remain of a quality texture-and they have to consume it-finding the
perfect fit is the trick-- :lol: 4 lbs soyisolate 90% protien gota go further than that
wheat isolate-RDY-B

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/soyproteinisolate4lb.aspx (http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/soyproteinisolate4lb.aspx)
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/wheatproteinisolatearise8000.aspx (http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/wheatproteinisolatearise8000.aspx)

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 20, 2011, 07:06:01 pm

.
This is going again too far. Guys who do not understand the basic figure are going to use something special.

Isolate = isolated from something or purifed

normal superstore soya with 20% fat is very good.

Egg gives no advantage to the patty. Neither skimmed milk.

I use soya protein HP100 which has been generated to replace animal mother milk. It comes from Holland. That was special route to get into Finland.

My drye yeast is from a French company, but yeast factory is in Canada and it has been transported to the Finish Yeast Factory.

Irradiated pollen is from China. Don't laugh but pollen is 5 years old. Ha ha you say, but in Britain they have not at all irradiated pollen to buy.

Our companies say that consumption is so small that they cannot buy every year fresh pollen.

But old stuff works because bees get aminoacids from yeast and from soya.
I use multivitamin, c-vitamin and magnesium in a patty.

As you see. This is complex enough and impossible to arrange small amounts.

.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 20, 2011, 08:15:43 pm

WE have new beekeeping Hero from finland- :lol: --RDY-B
wintering Buckfast bees in Finland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBtYuGAd6P4#)

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 20, 2011, 10:42:15 pm

*Egg gives no advantage to the patty.*

egg gives the added cholesterol for extended BROOD REARING- :)

*Isolate = isolated from something or purified*

dont know what to think of this statement-its FOOD GRADE and all the nutritive benefits are intact- 8-)

* I use soya protein HP100*

this product is some kind of ISOLATE in itself-its been engineered -whats the difference- ;)

* But old stuff works because bees get amino-acids from yeast and from soya.*

this seams to be one of the biggest problems with your region-there just is no available sources
for adequate ingredients-- :-\

the topic is protein isolate- :-P

HAPPY SOLSTICE-- ;) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 21, 2011, 01:18:16 am

.
Randy, warning again. i have studied in university plant physiology. It is quite near biochemisty. I am able to understand these things and you are pluffing again. You play wiser than you are.

I have read many serious laboratory tests about bee nutrition. None of them recommends cholesterol or egg.

hp100 is not an isolate. It is prosessed soya. Fat has been isolated away. I use canola oil to make the patty more tasty. I suppose that some amino acids are not isolated but they has been added to hp100. So called balanced to serve as mammal milk.

Actually we do not know much about bee nutriton. Every serious researcher says that bees need vitamins, but no one says what and how much. But now I do not mean hobby beekeepers. They know everything because a friend told or some very old guy.

And Egyptian researcher noticed that added magnesium gives larger brood area.

No one knows either how much bees needs fats. 7% is upper limit what is said and that amount is in canola pollen. Bee body fattening has something to do with swarming.

.get away from fats with dancing....

Too complex that level to handle. When folks get a recipe, they put into patty what ever they get into mind. They too drop away essential stuffs.

Folks do not understand the basics of 50% sugar in patty. Its duty is to stop molding and fermenting. If your patty makes air bubbles, add sugar.

.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 21, 2011, 02:12:58 am

**Randy, warning again. i have studied in university plant physiology. It is quite near biochemisty. I am able to understand these things and you are pluffing again. You play wiser than you are.**

I am not RANDY (HE is famous california beekeeper :loll:)-your perception of the topic is limited to your inability to let people express there experience
and noledge -you are self righteous and closed minded -its in your nature-not your own fault- i guess- :(

**I have read many serious laboratory tests about bee nutrition. None of them recommends cholesterol or egg**

they are not beekeepers -follow what you will-or wont-once again you have isolated your self from a important fact
that could benefit you-- :?

**Folks do not understand the basics of 50% sugar in patty. Its duty is to stop molding and fermenting. If your patty makes air bubbles, add sugar.**

the 50% sugar is a important point -HOWEVER it is not to stop fermenting (for this use acidifying agent-such as ascorbic acid crystals-or your vitamin C to change ph as a preservitive) the 50% sugar is for consumption (they gota eat it) also carbohydrate for utilization of proteins---- :-X

**Actually we do not know much about bee nutrition. Every serious researcher says that bees need vitamins, but no one says what and how much. But now I do not mean hobby beekeepers. They know everything because a friend told or some very old guy.**

we know enough to use profile from pollen for our guide when we make advances in nutrition- :lol:

finski-- :) the topic is protein isolate-try and be a little more constructive in your approach-you have no claim to this topic
or any other topic-the group moves along fine without the negative braiding --HAPY SOLSTICE ;) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 21, 2011, 01:26:55 pm

Well, I have to get back to work, I haven't abandoned this thread. Everytime I see Finski's posts at this time of year, I'm reminded of the episode of Northern Exposure where the bar owner has to fight because the ice in the river hasn't broken yet.

All this has to do with a jar of dietary supplement I got hold of because the guy was throwing it out. I can use the jar, and don't really need the muscle, although after a day of splitting elm I'm thinking about it. It's a good thing I didn't mention the ingredients of the other jar, that has an alphabet soup of everything from Modified Glucose Polymers, to Methylxanthine.

Remember, when you buy items for your computer, make sure to buy the ones labeled "Internet." I know I use my "Internet Mouse," and miss the use of my "Internet CD drive."

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 21, 2011, 02:08:00 pm

you could make SMOOTHIES with it-last year there was a post about feeding bananas -you could add the banana to
the smoothy- :lol: a few years ago everyone was adding TANG (the drink the astronots used) bees realy went for that stuff- ;)
:) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 21, 2011, 02:48:55 pm

Quote from: rdy-b on December 21, 2011, 02:08:00 pm

you could make SMOOTHIES with it-last year there was a post about feeding bananas -you could add the banana to
the smoothy- :lol: a few years ago everyone was adding TANG (the drink the astronots used) bees realy went for that stuff- ;)
:) RDY-B

banana has only sugar as nutrient.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 21, 2011, 03:06:21 pm

Quote from: rdy-b on December 21, 2011, 02:12:58 am

*
finski-- :) the topic is protein isolate-try and be a little more constructive in your approach-you have no claim to this topic
or any other topic-the group moves along fine without the negative braiding --HAPY SOLSTICE ;) RDY-B

the topic was the big brothers had left some body building stuff in the room corner and the small brother got in mind that may I feed that stuff to bees?

After that discussion has been mere chaos. And Randy, where we need Randy? To make constructive illusion about ..... Now I forgot. ..... Yes big brother's muscles.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 21, 2011, 03:55:32 pm

yes thats funny- :) finski you need to calibrate your translator-it should have a learning ap
like spell checker--Im not rugby-and im not randy--i am- rdy-b-- :lol: finski-do you know the keeper
in the video-he has very nice boxes-dont you think-- :) --RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 21, 2011, 06:17:28 pm

.
Ää äää ää

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 21, 2011, 06:31:09 pm

kyllä thats funny-finski pitää kalibroida kääntäjä-sen olisi pitänyt oppimisen AP
kuten oikeinkirjoituksen tarkistus - Im ei rugby-ja im ole Randy - Olen-RDY-b - finski-Tiedätkö pitäjän
in video-hän on erittäin mukava laatikot-Dont luulet - - RDY-B

:-P RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 22, 2011, 01:42:38 am

.
You are not afraid of Santa?

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 22, 2011, 05:10:17 am

(http://allthemfiles.horizon-host.com/pictures/misc/smile.png)

Whew!

Quote

you could make SMOOTHIES with it

Actually, I'll just feed that stuff to my worms. I don't know if they need Protein Isolate, or Methylxanthine to stay awake, but if they're fat and happy, I'm happy. Before anyone calls Shenanigans, I'm sure if they don't eat the stuff, they'll eat whatever grew on it.

From what they say about the Wheat Protein Isolate, it seems the Gluten is still in the mix. Though Gluten is a protein, it's a long stretchy one, why Wheat paste is such an excellent glue. I have no idea what the bees think about it though.

Rdy, I found this under the whole Gluten thing. I see you're happy with the Soy Isolate. Is there some change in your mind about the Canola? Earlier here in this thread you suggest I try Safflower and Corn:

50lbs brewers yeast
60lbs granulated sugar
5lbs powdered egg yok
5lbs soy isolate (this is not soy flour)
48oz canola oil
48oz corn oil
1lb cytric acid crystals
3.25 gal hot water
1/2 cup HbH

On a different note, it's been fairly warm here. Today I read 56°F (13°C) on my thermometer, and all colonies were out doing their thing. I took a break to watch and even after we had several freezes I see them bringing in large baskets of pollen! Some red-orange, some olive-green. I remember Michael Bush saying they would forage it even after freezes, but I have to see it to believe it! I have no clue to where they're finding it!

No, I'm not afraid of Santa, he brings me the same crap every year.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: VolunteerK9 on December 22, 2011, 07:53:42 am

Quote from: CapnChkn on December 22, 2011, 05:10:17 am

I took a break to watch and even after we had several freezes I see them bringing in large baskets of pollen! Some red-orange, some olive-green. I remember Michael Bush saying they would forage it even after freezes, but I have to see it to believe it! I have no clue to where they're finding it

I know Im not that far from you_but mine are still bringing in pollen too. Some deep orange,reddish looking stuff.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 22, 2011, 10:08:45 am

Google tells that soya isolate has 90% protein. Carbohydrates and fat has been removed.
. So Captain adds food oil and carbohydrates .

Say magic word "isolate"!

Captain as no pollen in the recipe

when I have used soya flour, i have noticed that it hardends the patty.. It limits the amount what I use. Yeast is very essential with soya flour.

Yes, the bees eate patty with maximum speed. They cannot consume it more because in the first stage number of nurser bees limits the brood area. When youg bees emerge, bees get willow pollen too from nature. Because willow pollen has only 15% crude protein, bees like to continue patty eating.

The patty is not hyper stuff, but it makes its duty.

.with electrict heating and patty I get 3-fold speed in Spring build up compard to natural system. . Should I demand more.

.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 22, 2011, 12:11:22 pm

.
Should we be happy about 90% protein? Is it better than soya 60% or dryed yest 50%..
A human body has 70% water. We cannot eate dry food. Then we must eate something else than pure protein. Carbohydrates, fibres,etc to get "healthy" food. Then we should drink every day 3 litres water to keep our kidneys and blood pressure in condition.

Soy beans must be boiled 3 hours that fabacae poisons will be eliminated. Vitamins?

Are you happy about purified food? Do you think that bees are happy?

It is important that bees get essential amino acids in ther food and some other food stuff. Bees can compensate a while missing nutrients. They can take it from their body a while but it shortens the worker life.

I have seen that when bees eate mere patty and cannot go to willows for continuous rains, they stopped larva rearing. If they do not get drinking water during one week, they eate all larvae from hives. (snow in ground).

Many guys have said: "Stupid patty. Full of mold". - yes, they saved sugar.

Does the patty drill onto bottom or is it too dry. At least I must excercise several years that patty feedings went without surprises.

.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 22, 2011, 02:32:18 pm

*Rdy, I found this under the whole Gluten thing. I see you're happy with the Soy Isolate. Is there some change in your mind about the Canola? Earlier here in this thread you suggest I try Safflower and Corn:*

capn-in the earlier thread the main point i wanted to bring up was the combination of two oils- canola
is the favorite -check at your local store-I have found a oil that is blended from manufacture-it is safflower and corn
at 50/50 mix-so it is hassle free to use the two oils-the corn oil is the one that gives the extra bang-

*when I have used soya flour, i have noticed that it hardens the patty.. It limits the amount what I use. Yeast is very essential with soya flour.*

yes yeast is essential -its not all the same and deferent brands of brewers yeast will even mix different -I am not
even sure what type of yeast you are using fin-ski-you speak of the mix bubbling-is your yeast still alive
maybe its torula yeast -i dont know you havnt said -finski says that when he uses soya flour it hardens the
patty-this supports the fact that all the ingredients have to be compatible for a final mix that fills our needs

**Should we be happy about 90% protein? Is it better than soya 60% or dried yeast 50%..
A human body has 70% water. We cannot eate dry food. Then we must eate something else than pure protein. Carbohydrates, fibres,etc to get "healthy" food. Then we should drink every day 3 litres water to keep our kidneys and blood pressure in condition.**

as i said earlier the higher protein allows us to use less of the protein source to be used-when we are able to use
less and still get the protein percent -then we can use EXTRA sugar or HONEY-this gives use a high protein and
carbohydrate for consumption-if you make a simple pie graph and a target protein number you can visualize
the ratios you are getting -the use of protein isolate has great benefit in achieving your goals--

fin-ski-sometimes i think you are thinking we are just speaking about using the isolate by its self--thats
not the case it is a ingredient -in combination with other ingredients that allows use to achieve our goal
-and to answer your question--NO Im not afraid of SANTA--I leave him jars of HONEY and and he leaves me a new HIVE TOOL- :) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 22, 2011, 02:53:51 pm

.
As I said, protein is not a limiting fartor in spring. Even if you feed 120% protein you cannot get more new bees because limiting factor is nurser bees. I do not know how it works in California.

Our nurserbees in April have born in late August. They are 7 months old.
After 4 weeks from my patty feeding start the hive has a new nurser gang. Foragers have gathered allready willow pollen from nature 1-2 weeks.

In May the limiting factors are the size of colony and the heat. A 5 frame colony cannot make much brood what ever you do to it. Perhaps you get shalkbrood when you try too much.

The best way to build up small colonies is to give emerging brood frames from big hives.

As far as I have feeded pollen in spring to hives 20 years, protein content is not a limiting factor here.

Good weather inspire the colony to rear brood. When it is rainy week in May, the larva feeding drops 50%. It is their natural instinct to do so. when I had Elgon bees, they were like mad to rear brood. They had full speed all the time and they did not mind about weathers.

I know that. I have done this so much.

.
.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 22, 2011, 06:41:15 pm

All good points i would like to add--

**As I said, protein is not a limiting factor in spring. Even if you feed 120% protein you cannot get more new bees because limiting factor is nurser bees. I do not know how it works in California.**

yes protein is a limiting factor-and also we need to remember that we need correct amino acid profile
and the protein isolate is a good way to BALANCE this--the bees will only utilize what there bodies can use
we are not trying to reach the highest protein level-but using profile of pollen and maintaining 50% carbohydrate
(sugar or honey) proportion % of mix is what works in california- :)

**As far as I have feeded pollen in spring to hives 20 years, protein content is not a limiting factor here.**

that is a interesting condition --due you mean feeding of patty mix or straight pollen-or pollen in your mix-
at any rate -natural pollen stored in hive is a good resource no doubt-many take the approach of using three box system with bottom box being used for pollen storage--instead of letting bee consume this resource in the FAll-we feed coupes amounts of protein sub for bees to rear winter bees and charge protein reserves in there body fat-(even a bear eats before winter sleep)-this will allow the natural pollen reserves gathered in pollen box to be utilized for spring brood- ;)
-yes we know about the willow pollen and such-poster BOCHA has no luck with natural pollen flow for build up-can you help him -I told him to speak with you for guidance-he lives close to you- :)

8-) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 23, 2011, 06:06:59 pm

Quote from: rdy-b on December 22, 2011, 06:41:15 pm

All good points i would like to add--

**As I said, protein is not a limiting factor in spring. Even if you feed 120% protein you

Sorry sorry! I meant that the high percent of protein content....soya or yeast 60% compared to 90% isolate.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 23, 2011, 10:24:14 pm

suprized about the position you are taking- when the HP100 puts you in the same boat-??? RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 24, 2011, 08:30:43 am

Quote from: rdy-b on December 23, 2011, 10:24:14 pm

suprized about the position you are taking- when the HP100 puts you in the same boat-??? RDY-B

You are surprising my every sentence. I cannot understand what pleasure you get from it.

I do not mind in what boat I am. HP is a fine product. I do not take headache from it.

Bees food optimal protein percentage is 24%. It is same how much more you offer proteins, they make amount of brood.

Willow pollen raw protein is 15% Fireweed is 11%. Pollen ball has 30% honey.
Bees manage to rear their colony.
Pine pollen has only 2%. Bees gather it too.
Kiwi pollen has protein not at all.

(http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotos-g28923-Alaska.html#1618346)

Fireweed in Alaska. It has pollen protein only 11%.
Splended nertar source.
The honey does not crystallize.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: boca on December 24, 2011, 10:07:46 am

Quote from: Finski on December 22, 2011, 02:53:51 pm

when I had Elgon bees, they were like mad to rear brood. They had full speed all the time and they did not mind about weathers.

What is the Elgon bee? Is it a strain or hybrid? :?

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 24, 2011, 02:09:49 pm

**As I said, protein is not a limiting fartor in spring. Even if you feed 120% protein you cannot get more new bees because limiting factor is nurser bees. I do not know how it works in California.**

nurser bees you say--well we already know that house bees and even field bees have the ability
to rejuvenate and make beemik-this is a typical scenario of a protein charged colony-over 90%
of bees will be able to help nurser bees-its part of the reason(in tune with the queen being feed protein rich bee milk) protein sub creates a population explosion-but if your sub falls Below there needs you have missed the boat again-- :)

:) RDY-B in california 42 degre F with palm trees swaying

http://www.portofhelsinki.fi/port_of_helsinki/web_cameras/south_harbour (http://www.portofhelsinki.fi/port_of_helsinki/web_cameras/south_harbour)

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 26, 2011, 01:07:33 pm

Boca,

http://www.elgon.se/story/elgonbee.htm (http://www.elgon.se/story/elgonbee.htm)

I'm reading this the best I can. I can understand the protein has to be at a dynamic, if you could force-feed the bees the pure protein isolate they still wouldn't gain any benefit. Once a level has been reached, adding more either will take extra effort to get any gain out of, or will simply be wasted.

I wasn't thinking in percentages. I read on the nutrition label of the Soy flour:

14g Protein.

Of course this is in a 30g serving. So, 7/15 is protein or 47%! Hmmm. Now this is great from the perspective of the Beekeeper, but I'm wondering about the Bee. How does this set on their tummy-tums? It can't be too bad, they'll eat it.

Well, it looks like I have my curriculum set for the next few months...

Thank you Everybody!

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 26, 2011, 01:32:18 pm

.
Is the bee carnivore or herbivore?

When horse or cow gets too much soya, it get a acute laminitis.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 26, 2011, 03:24:18 pm

Finski--I was going to send you 30lb package of sub to try--they tell me the cost
to ship to HELSINKI is between $350-$380-- :-P-- :'( RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 26, 2011, 03:42:17 pm

.
That is expencive!

I found a chipment price " over 20 lbs package from USA to Fi 4 euros/ kg." 4 x 15 kg = 60 euros =80 US $

However, that makes no sence because HP100 is 2 euros/kg. I got free that 50 lbs sack.

http://usarahti.nettisivu.org/ (http://usarahti.nettisivu.org/)

However thanks!

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 26, 2011, 05:56:36 pm

.
I looked our soya isolate selling in internet. The price was 15-20 $/kg. It is tremendous and makes no sense.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 26, 2011, 06:30:17 pm

you miss understand me i was NOT going to send soy isolate i was going to send
a 30lb package of finished product mixed from recipe we use-it is the same supplement
that the california beekeeper in the video uses--nutra bee-it is a great product and
dose not get hard-However UPS--FEDEX gave me quotes of$350-380 american dollars
cost to send 30lb package fro here to HELSINKI-- :roll: very expensive shipping-
I know you have good recipe but you would like this --RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 27, 2011, 12:00:24 am

Quote from: rdy-b on December 26, 2011, 06:30:17 pm

you miss understand me i was NOT going to send soy isolate i was going to send
a 30lb package of finished product mixed

I understood correctly. It is really expencive to send even with cheap way.
I just try to look, how easy is to get isolate here and what is the price.

My HP100 is an animal forage. But it had quite much difficulties to get it from Holland to Finland.
It moved all the time "with some friend's friend"

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 27, 2011, 12:55:33 am

I have found a way to send by US POSTAL priority box-cant exced 20lb
i will pay expense if you want some--RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 27, 2011, 12:29:05 pm

it is interesting stuff. A smaller amount would be too possible to compare to my patty formula. BUT
a big hive consumes 1-1,5 lbs patty in a weeks. My feeding period lasts 8 weeks, from first weeks
of April to the end of May. If it rains badly I feed more.

So, one big hive consumes patty 10 lbs in a Spring. - of which 50% is sugar..

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 27, 2011, 02:42:54 pm

yes i understand -i did not think you feed that much--from sept - oct i feed 2000lbs of sub
its just opportunity to try something different-your mix will be fine-- :) RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 27, 2011, 04:07:52 pm

Quote from: rdy-b on December 27, 2011, 02:42:54 pm

yes i understand -i did not think you feed that much--from sept - oct i feed 2000lbs of sub
its just opportunity to try something different-your mix will be fine-- :) RDY-B

In late Sept my hives are in wintersleep. They stop brood rearing at the end of August. 2 years old queen stops 2 weeks earlier. Winterfeeding restart brood rearing in small scale, about 2 frames of brood.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 27, 2011, 04:49:00 pm

yes time difference is a challenge but you could feed after you pull honey-and then treat for varoa
before winter sleep--or maybe small hive is easier to winter in finland--here the large hives winter best-
condensation is problem with large hives--many bees breathing moist air from fog--RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: CapnChkn on December 28, 2011, 12:08:14 am

Quote

Is the bee carnivore or herbivore?

Strangely, I would have to say bees are incidental carnivores. They don't intentionally hunt meat, but will eat the larvae and eggs if nothing else is available. Chimpanzees and Gorillas will catch and eat small animals if the opportunity arises for added protein. Humans actively hunt meat, so using this analogy, we could say the genetic "segue" of the bees, the wasps, got a taste for meat.

Of course with the hundreds of different species of bee, there would have to be one (there are three!) that gets nutrition from meat.
http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/carnivorous-bees/ (http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/carnivorous-bees/)
These aren't hunters either, but necrophages, scavangers. It seems they will also eat the live young and eggs from abandoned wasp nests and toad eggs.

I feel Ok with the source of food. I don't know what the bees may think about egg yolks. I would imagine if it was that bad for them they would reject it as tasting bad. Egg yolks are probably not the best thing for a herbivore, but there's no simple easy source of vitellogenin I can think of besides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitellogenin#Vitellogenin_and_honey_bees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitellogenin#Vitellogenin_and_honey_bees)

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 28, 2011, 12:54:02 am

vitellogene is an egg yolk protein precurser, -it dosent come from eggs

**Egg yolks are probably not the best thing for a herbivore, but there's no simple easy source of vitellogenin I can think of besides.**

POLLEN for bees -and any amino acid profile that is in that range--RDY-B

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: rdy-b on December 28, 2011, 01:12:19 am

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 28, 2011, 03:14:53 am

Quote from: rdy-b on December 27, 2011, 04:49:00 pm

yes time difference is a challenge but you could feed after you pull honey-and then treat for varoa
before winter sleep--or maybe small hive is easier to winter in finland--here the large hives winter best-
condensation is problem with large hives--many bees breathing moist air from fog--RDY-B

You think too much. Small hives in winter is a mere nuisance. They have a value of a queen.

Big hives have no problems. And they start in Spring fine and are firsti reaty to catch yield.

Title: Re: Protein Isolate
Post by: Finski on December 28, 2011, 03:18:39 am

Quote from: rdy-b on December 28, 2011, 01:12:19 am

HERES another twist for you :lol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivorous_plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivorous_plants)

I have reared quite much carnivorous plants. You may feed the fly trap with skimmed milk.