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Author Topic: Wiring foundationless frames  (Read 7168 times)

Offline SlickMick

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Wiring foundationless frames
« on: April 21, 2016, 09:58:50 am »
Out of curiosity more than anything else is as usual to wire deep foundationless frames in the brood nest to support the brood and also in the honey supers to help carry the weight of honey.

Or do most people rely on the bees making good attachments

Mick

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 10:19:49 am »
Wiring was invented to keep the foundation from sagging.  I find it necessary when using wax foundation in deep frames.  How much is necessary depends on how hot the weather is and how quckly they draw it.
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Offline little john

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 12:53:25 pm »
Out of curiosity more than anything else is as usual to wire deep foundationless frames in the brood nest to support the brood

http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=48266.0  reply #5  shows a 'worst-case scenario' frame - comb almost fully drawn, but not yet attached at the sides.  That's why I wire f/less frames - for security, not to support the weight itself.
LJ
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2016, 12:53:51 pm »
I use all medium frames. I have been switching to foundation less this year and found that it really helps to add the pins to the sides of the frames. The pins were designed to hold wax foundation in place. I add them to stabilize the comb until the bees connect the comb to the bottom and sides.
If you are using foundation less, add a thin wood strip in the top slot and using melted wax, paint the edge with wax. So far every frame that the swarms have made on them have been near perfect.
Jim
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 02:28:05 pm »
If I were really concerned about it (I'm not) I would add a coffee stir stick vertically in the middle of the frame.  That would stabilize the center of a hanging comb quite a bit.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#canwire
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2016, 05:29:20 pm »
When i used deep frames I found the vertical wires to be enough to support the brood frames. If you ever need to extract a deep frame you will wish you had the horizontal wires as well.   Long hives have no support and generally do fine if you handle them correctly, so a lot depends on your intentions and handling skills.  Medium frames I dont use any wires or foundation and lose about one in fifty while extracting, and thats usually my fault for spinning up too fast or because I tried to extract comb that was too soft/not well attached.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline tjc1

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2016, 01:33:16 am »
Here is a thread with some pictures.
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=40689.msg353283#msg353283

Here is a photo of how I start. I only have mediums now, but still string them with monofilament. Super frames, too, if I plan on extracting them, but they seem strong enough without, actually. On super frames, if the comb is well=drawn and you are reasonably careful in extracting, I think that you'd be fine without the support; I don't know if I can say for sure that having it there also helps them to draw the comb straighter. Here's what I do with monofilament line. I tie a triple knot to start so the the mf doesn't pull through the hole in the side frame when you start; you have to pull it really tight, as it stretches with time. When I get to the end, I pull it through the last hole and tie it off to itself on the outside. I do this with mediums,  for general support, and super frames, too, if I plan to extract them. I usually leave a few super frames with no support, to use as cut comb.


Offline little john

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2016, 03:39:46 am »
Long hives have no support and generally do fine if you handle them correctly, so a lot depends on your intentions and handling skills. 

... and workload.  For the back garden beekeeper with a couple of hives, great care can be given to handling, but those with large numbers of hives simply do not have time to handle frames like that.  And quite often I need to view combs at an inclined angle - to catch the light - or even lie them flat for cell-punching. 

Then there's transportation - I like to ensure that a customer gets their nuc home with the combs still attached, and not on the floor of the box.

Wiring is a hassle - it takes time and patience, and I'd love to be able to omit that extra job if it were feasible - but on balance I think it's a job worth doing, for it only needs to be done once in the lifetime of a frame ... that is, providing that you don't put that frame in a solar wax melter.

Seems to me that if you're not going to support the comb across the side bars, then you may as well run Top-Bar only, and save yourself a heap of money.

The following is an extract of the opening comments re: the KTBH by the guy largely responsible for it's invention:
Quote
G.F. Townsend - Beehive Designs for the Tropics, 1984

In Kenya a modification of the Greek basket hive with movable top bars, which is now called the ?Kenya Top Bar Hive,? is successfully replacing the traditional log hive with fixed combs. The hive was tested on an extensive scale by Mr. Jim Nightingale, of Njoro, Kenya, and proved to be quite successful for Kenya conditions.
 
With this hive it is possible to remove the frames which contain only honey. The major drawback, which restricts its use to stationary-type beekeeping, is that the combs will break away from the top bar quite readily. The combs must be suspended vertically at all times; if the bar is rotated so that the comb is horizontal, the weight of the comb may cause it to break from the bar. To harvest the honey and beeswax, remove the combs that contain fully capped honey but no pollen or brood.
 
Mr. Jim Nightingale has found recently that if three small holes, about 2.5 - 3 mm in thickness, are drilled through the top bar, the center one being at a 90 degree angle with the top and the other two sloping inward, then three 2.5 mm strips of wood or bamboo can be passed through these as depicted. When the comb is drawn out over these sticks, the comb will be strong enough to withstand transportation.

LJ
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2016, 09:34:39 pm »
LJ, I followed your recommendation on the 50lb test monofilament, and it stretches a lot. I wonder if "spider wire " or similar braided fish line might be better? It's thinner and less stretchy. And more expensive, but we're talking $10 difference for a lifetime supply. But I dunno? ?

Offline little john

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 03:39:48 am »
It doesn't really need to have a high tension - I sometimes pluck the strands out of curiosity, and it sounds like a kiddy's plastic banjo: plink, plink, plonk etc.  Not exactly 'musical' !

It's only there to stop the comb from waving about after all, until the side adhesions are made and firmed-up - so a tiny bit of stretch isn't really an issue. But - if you're happier with braided line - then so be it.  Hope it works ok for you ...  I swear by this method.
LJ
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 07:04:58 am »
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not  warped  or wave.


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Offline little john

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 08:19:10 am »
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not  warped  or wave.
            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

But we're talking about foundationless combs - different animal entirely, and the 'wire' is being used for a different purpose - to support the combs during transport or inspection, until adequate side adhesions are made.  Vertical wooden or bamboo skewers could be used instead of horizontal 'wire' - but they look like crap (imo).
LJ
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Offline Jim134

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 08:36:45 am »
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not  warped  or wave.
            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

But we're talking about foundationless combs - different animal entirely, and the 'wire' is being used for a different purpose - to support the combs during transport or inspection, until adequate side adhesions are made.  Vertical wooden or bamboo skewers could be used instead of horizontal 'wire' - but they look like crap (imo).
LJ

        Did you read the title of the thread.?
        Topic: Wiring foundationless frames


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:53:02 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline SlickMick

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 09:51:49 am »
Thanks so much for your replies and ideas.

I have just started to swing over to foundationless frames. I have three frames in the brood box where there is no attachment to the sides and I was concerned that this could become an issue. I am going to have two rotate these frames into the next box above so that they can become clear of brood and so that I can wire them in.

It's all a learning curve

Mick

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2016, 10:01:00 am »
Mick,
If your frames are pre drilled, get some foundation pins and push them in. They help a lot for handling the frame until the bees connect the wax to the frame.
I have been drilling holes in the empty frames that do not have them and then putting the pins in.
Jim
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Offline SlickMick

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2016, 10:05:39 am »
Great idea Jim, will do

Mick

Offline little john

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 06:03:17 am »
Wire in Foundation was used for two things so the cells would not sag and to keep the foundation in the middle of the frame so it would not  warped  or wave.
            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

But we're talking about foundationless combs - different animal entirely, and the 'wire' is being used for a different purpose - to support the combs during transport or inspection, until adequate side adhesions are made.  Vertical wooden or bamboo skewers could be used instead of horizontal 'wire' - but they look like crap (imo).
LJ

        Did you read the title of the thread.?
        Topic: Wiring foundationless frames


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

I did.  Did you ?  "Wire in Foundation was used for two things ... "

Which is something MB said a few posts ago ...

Why talk about wire in foundation, when we're discussing foundationless combs - it's irrelevant.
Interesting, factual even (perhaps) - but irrelevant.
LJ





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Offline Jim134

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2016, 02:22:08 pm »
Here's another way if you do not want to use wire for support on foundationless frames.
https://youtu.be/LzDuMvvU_xw



    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline SlickMick

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2016, 09:43:07 pm »
What a great idea! Thanks

Mick

Offline Jim134

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Re: Wiring foundationless frames
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2016, 11:46:11 pm »
He start talking about foundationless frames at 4 minutes and 20 seconds.
https://youtu.be/UjIJV-oCbO8

                      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 12:22:08 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/