Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Absconded hives  (Read 8639 times)

Offline KPF

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2016, 11:20:27 am »
We got an update from our state apiary inspector that absconding is widespread in the Northeast. They are guessing the mild winter combined with  poor mite control is the culprit. (Higher temperatures allowing the mites to thrive) They noted, however, that this behavior seems to also happen in hives treated for mites.  This is only a preliminary report and more may come out later.

I like the idea of not treating but I'm considering using oxalic acid next year.
"Sprinkles are for winners."

Offline KeyLargoBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 776
  • Gender: Male
    • Pirate Hat Apiary
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 10:08:01 am »
Well I lost another hive to an abscond over the weekend so my losses are now at 50% for "overwintering".....was the second hive with the poorly performing queen that I was planning on replacing as we got a tad later in the spring. They were languishing and had been reduced from a 10 frame box to a NUC and were only partially covering three frames so its not a huge loss. Queen was active and moving around and visible on inspections just laying very spotty for the past several months (she was a late summer supercedure queen). The other hives never really  stopped laying at some level and the two hives I have left are building up for spring already.

C'est la vie....still have the two boomers and the Owl Box cutout so things are looking OK for the spring ....I saw lots of drones in the Owl Box as I cut them out and am seeing drone cells capped in the other two hives so its coming up time for things to really get rolling.
Jeff Wingate

Changes in Latitudes...Changes in Attitudes....are Florida Keys bees more laid back than the rest of the country...only time will tell!!!
piratehatapiary@gmail.com https://www.facebook.com/piratehatapiary

Offline Cedar Hill

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 33
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 01:00:27 pm »
We got an update from our state apiary inspector that absconding is widespread in the Northeast. They are guessing the mild winter combined with  poor mite control is the culprit. (Higher temperatures allowing the mites to thrive) They noted, however, that this behavior seems to also happen in hives treated for mites.  This is only a preliminary report and more may come out later.
      Mine absconded even though they had more than a deep super filled with honey, had been treated for mites and nosema timely and appropriately, during late fall when wrapping the hives, etc.   This is in fact extraordinary.   As a former commercial beekeeper, it might be a little more understandable with a very large number of hives that a very few of them might abscond although still rare, however this is happening often to experienced beekeepers who do not have or no longer have large numbers of hives.   I had one of mine do so as well this late fall.    It bears watching closely.   OMTCW   

Offline SlickMick

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 727
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2016, 12:01:44 am »
I find the concept of whole colonies of bees suddenly absconding from their hives leaving stores quite amazing as I am sure all of you who have had it happen do also. I have never heard of it before and it just doesn't seem to fit the concept of beekeeping that I know, especially as it seems so widespread. Is there any relationship to CCD??

I wonder if there have been any genetic studies made of the colonies that have absconded. There must be genetic material left in the hives that can be studied by your beekeeping authorities in an attempt to find the cause/s.

Mick

Offline PhilK

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 410
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2016, 12:22:01 am »
I find the concept of whole colonies of bees suddenly absconding from their hives leaving stores quite amazing as I am sure all of you who have had it happen do also. I have never heard of it before and it just doesn't seem to fit the concept of beekeeping that I know, especially as it seems so widespread. Is there any relationship to CCD??

I wonder if there have been any genetic studies made of the colonies that have absconded. There must be genetic material left in the hives that can be studied by your beekeeping authorities in an attempt to find the cause/s.

Mick
From what I have read/heard some people suspect that bees with Africanized genes are more likely to respond.. is this true?

Slick, are absconding hives an issue in Australia? I've never heard of it here

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 12:46:24 am »
Africanized might be a good theory except that absconding reports are coming from all over, including placeswhere Africanized genetics don't seem to be present.  Could AHB genetics be spreading beyond the range of Africanized bees?  If so, why this trait rather than some more desirable ones (yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline SlickMick

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 727
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 03:10:39 am »

Quote
Slick, are absconding hives an issue in Australia? I've never heard of it here

Phil it is so foreign to me, I just don't understand it. Others may have heard of it buT I certainly haven't.
There has to be something common to all of those absconding colonies that's the cause. Is it happening in the northern states and Canada? Is it in a cluster of states? What research has been done?..

Mick

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 10:42:27 am »
Yesterday was 'the calm after a storm' (and a particularly bad storm at that - 68ft waves reported off Cornwall). The day started off with a heavy frost, but then the sun came out, and after an hour or two so did the bees. Every hive put a cloud of bees into the air - which is always a good sight to see after weeks of confinement.

I mention this as a comparison - for I've never yet had a colony abscond in the way being described, nor have I ever heard of this happening to anyone else in Britain. It is true that from time to time reporters trying to make-up an alarmist story will claim CCD-type absconding has been observed in parts of Europe, but losing colonies by swarming or by winter starvation (both of which do happen, sure) is not the same thing at all. I'd suggest that it's a softer option for incompetent or lazy beekeepers to jump on 'the CCD bandwagon', than face up to their own mistakes.

For those in Southern areas relying on swarms for their stocks, I'd suggest buying a queen from 'up North' - say, from someone like Michael Palmer who has never seen absconding or CCD - and breed your working queens from her. It's not a perfect solution, of course, as you've still got your local drones to contend with - but at least by starting-off with a stable maternal line you may be able to retain sufficient European genetics to at least get your colonies to stay put (assuming of course that it's Africanisation that's responsible). If you then go on to buy one new queen from 'up North' every two years or so (which isn't a major expense, compared with the expense of lost colonies) from which to breed, you could at least then cope whilst a more permanent solution is found.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline PhilK

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 410
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 06:23:26 pm »
(yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
We don't have them in Australia, but I have read they are very productive and able to manage pests better (beetle, Varroa).. but if they keep flying off that doesn't really matter does it!

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 07:17:37 pm »
(yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
We don't have them in Australia, but I have read they are very productive and able to manage pests better (beetle, Varroa).. but if they keep flying off that doesn't really matter does it!

I know some guys in South Texas that would be glad to send you some.  Yes, guys there and southern Rizona say they're very productive, but if they get PO'd, they'll follow you more than half a mile.  There are no urban beekeepers in AHB country.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline chorrylan

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2016, 02:02:45 am »
(yes, some people contend the AHB has some desirable traits, tho I'm unclear what they might be)?
We don't have them in Australia, but I have read they are very productive and able to manage pests better (beetle, Varroa).. but if they keep flying off that doesn't really matter does it!

I know some guys in South Texas that would be glad to send you some.  Yes, guys there and southern Rizona say they're very productive, but if they get PO'd, they'll follow you more than half a mile.  There are no urban beekeepers in AHB country.
Lol they're able to retain enormous quantities of honey cos no bugger is willing to go near enough to harvest it?

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk


Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2016, 12:22:16 pm »
not enough to noticeably change the temper of the hives maybe but the genetics are still there in some smal percentage..

And the percentage would be even smaller because the gene would be recessive.  So I can't get wrapped up around the idea that the problem stems from African genetics.  I can however draw anecdotal reference to the fact that more and more neonics are being put into the environment as time goes on.  Whereas Europe is not using them and not seeing the problem to the extent that we are.  I am not a scientist but it seams to me there is a study going on every day about this but no one is collecting the data.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2016, 01:15:21 pm »
Is there evidence that the genetics of AHBs are recessive?  The defensiveness of AHBs seems to be passed down through several generations. 

I've read (and been unable to wrap my head around the allegation) that a queen that mates with an Africanized drone and numerous non-Africanized drones will somehow use the Africanized sperm (or perhaps the Africanized sperm is more energetic?) in preference to the other sperm.  Seems a stretch to me.  In either case, the result is a hot hive.  If some bees in a hive are aggressive (more defensive), the other bees will become more defensive, even though they have no AHB genetics, according to some. 
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2016, 08:20:51 pm »
Is it guaranteed that the African bee genetics will result in an aggressive hive?  No doubt African bees have other genes.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2016, 09:24:24 pm »
Is it guaranteed that the African bee genetics will result in an aggressive hive?  No doubt African bees have other genes.

I don't know if it's guaranteed, but it is extremely likely.  Other genetic characteristics, besides defenseiveness, are a tendency to swarm, they like to nest in low places like water meter boxes and lawn irrigation control boxes; and good honey producers.  Their tendency to swarm is possibly a good defense against varroa and SHBs.  They may, in that regard, tend to abscond rather than swarm, but they do seem to want to propagate a lot, so swarming is there, too.  i'll bet some beekeepers from Arizona and south Texas can contribute a lot more toward explaining their genetic tendncies.

I just know that a lot of beekeepers from my area try to buy queens from up north because they have bought Southern-bred queens and wound up with very hot hives.  They attibute it to AHB genetics, possibly from drones.

"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2016, 09:46:39 pm »
I can't see where swarming helps their cause against varroa.  They bring the mites with them.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13496
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2016, 06:55:50 am »
By. Moving the hive, they break the life cycle of the mites. It takes about a year for the mites to build up their numbers again after a move.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8110
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2016, 09:47:02 am »
It has to be a very short brood break so how much can it knock them down?  Granted there would be less mites because there would be less bees similar to a package of bees.  If you took an infested hive and did an equal divide the half that had the queen doesn't see a break in brood so it is still infested.  Even if there is a supercedure there isn't much of a break.  The biggest break comes when you force the bees into an emergency queen situation.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline tjc1

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 752
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2016, 08:20:00 pm »
That's kind of the feeling that I had about the idea that the varroa is what is behind the absconds. Do the bees 'know' that the brood cycle break will lower the mite population? I certainly do think that they must 'know' that absconding in October or November here in the north is certain death. Or are they just 'driven mad' by the infestation?

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Absconded hives
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2016, 09:46:50 pm »
Reading in "The Beekeeper's Handbook" today I ran across two pertinent facts about AHBs.  (1.) They're smaller than EHBs and (2.)  They have less of a problem with varroa mites.

This goes back to the reason many people advocate for smaller, more natural cells, which equal smaller bees, which means less of a problem with varroa mites. 

Okay, another school of thought favors these larger bees that were bred up in the 1800s, allegedly so they could produce more honey.  If you believe that, fine.  I don't want to fight about it.   Just an observation.

And, tjc1, how about bees "knowing" that if they sting you, they'll die, so they are very reluctant to use that stinger.  Did they learn all this stuff in bee kindergarten, or what?
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944