Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Shawn on April 28, 2009, 10:22:10 pm
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I was just informed by a city council man there have have been record number of complaints about bees in the town. The other beek in town has 33 hives (commercially zoned and had an established of selling honey) and I only have 3 (hobby and not selling). The complaints are the bees are going to dog water dishes and buzzing the yards "where the kids are playing." I have not heard of anyone complaining of being stung yet. The word is they are thinking about saying that "bees" are a "farm animal" or Agricultural thing therefore have to be outside the city limits. When I went to the city zoning board they told me if it was a hobby there was nothing that can be done, as I posted over a year ago, unless the bees become a nuisance. Ill have to do some research tonight at work to see what exactly the complaints are so I can start to work on our argument.
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Providing a reliable source of water will help keep down the complaints that are actually your bees, but odds are there are other bees in town.
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The question that won't be asked and won't be answered is "Are they honeybees?"
This spring I have a record number of wasps, bumbles, hornets and yellow jackets around my house. Wife keeps telling me to "do something with the bees". The fact that they aren't MY bees isn't relevant, the bottom line is it's MY problem!
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We both have lots of water source close to the hives. Swarm season has not even hit here yet and I have been hearing about people finding "hives" in trees they are cutting down. I guess they can try to prove whos bees they are :-D. I looked things over and I have not seen any calls to the "police" about bees stinging people. I think maybe it is a neighbor propblem with the other beek. :roll:
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The town won't specify HIS bees, they will lump it all together. Good luck with it.
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Also it's worth finding out where the complaints are coming from geographically speaking. They may not even be comming from people who live close enough to either of you to have been visited by your bees.
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A lot of towns have ordinances against livestock and consider bees as livestock.
It's amazing people are complaining of too many bees.
Every time I tell someone I'm keeping bees, they comment on how they haven't seen any bees around.
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Just talked to 1 of the city council men today. He did say there have been a "couple" of complaints and one was because the guy cant go into his yard without there being bees. No one has complained baout being stung as of today. I was told the City Administrator is to look into wether the City can do anything about persons having bees inside the city limits. I will go talk with the administrator and give him my position on this topic. I did ask the council man if the two of us could be grandfathered in and he said "YES!"
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I was just informed by a city council man there have have been record number of complaints about bees in the town. The other beek in town has 33 hives (commercially zoned and had an established of selling honey) and I only have 3 (hobby and not selling). The complaints are the bees are going to dog water dishes and buzzing the yards "where the kids are playing." ...
(They always hide behind the kids)
offer to give a talk on honeybees at the local schools and brainwas... er. educate the little br... darlings (bring honey) - this is how I fell in love with bees - my landlord had about 8 hives in the yard and lived on the same property - he sat me down with some honeycomb and evaporated any trepidation I had about the bees (I even made other kids foaming mad at me and stood in the middle of the hives where they couldn't [find the courage to] get me.)
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Ok its now official. The guy complaining has made his first "police report" saying the bees are so numerous he is affraid to let hsi grandchildren out of the house. I was given an email to go speak to the guy to see what his options are. Anyone know of any way to detour the bees from a yard? I have to call him at 8:00 a.m. right before I get off of duty. Whats funny is one of my neghbors was talking to me and he said there are lots and lots of bees buzzing right over the ground at his house, no flowers or grass just dirt. He said it was no big deal because his two girls have not been stung. Why are the bees sticking to the ground? I had posted in another post that the bees were doing this at my house. Seems they are wanting somethig from the ground or dirt. Any suggetions on what to tell the guy would be appreciated!
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a swarm in his porchlight - desensitization by immersion might be a great way.
(this guy sounds like a 'harass through legislation' type if I ever heard of one)
maybe 'bee quick' (which one is the unoffensive one - tell him to get the other one) sprayed on his yard?
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Just out of curiosity, whats the guy with the 23 hives doing about it, When my bees cruise like that ,, I usually have to refill the water.
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Yellow Jackets & bumble bees nest in the ground. See what he has if they are not honey bees show him the difference.
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Whats funny is one of my neghbors was talking to me and he said there are lots and lots of bees buzzing right over the ground at his house, no flowers or grass just dirt. He said it was no big deal because his two girls have not been stung. Why are the bees sticking to the ground?Any suggetions on what to tell the guy would be appreciated!
Unless that dirt is wet, those bees are NOT of the honeybee persuasion. Ground bees, digger bees, cicada killers, yellow jackets....most people consider anything that buzzes to be a honeybee and they are too cowardly to get close enough to really check.
Sadly you could get you hives deep-6'd over digger bees.
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From what i understand bees are considered wild animals by the court system. So they can pass this and that but unlike cattle you can't pin them up or ever get rid of all of them. Getting rid of beekeepers isn't a solution only a punishment to the beekeeper as there are going to be feral hives around. It's amazing how dumb local government can be in the light of a dark time for honey bees.
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Keep us posted on what happens, but like others said, those don't sound like honeybees and you need to prove it to them.
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If you were down south I would say it was yellow jackets, they will find a big crack or hole in the ground and make their nest there. Not sure what kind of bees or wasp you might have out west. Catch a couple of them, then you will have somthing to show him and can identify what they are. I'm with scadsobees, dry dirt does not sound like honey bees. Keep us posted.
G3
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Ok I had to edit because the first thing I typed was fast. The beek and the animal control officer went over to the guys house in attempt to work things out. The beek does have plenty of water source and keeps them clean. The guy was told things he could do to help reduce the bees but he is not wanting to do them. He believes its his yard and he should not have to do. He is now complaining of bee stings and says he'll keep call us, the police, until somethign is done. Now that he knows I also keep bees he does not call for "me" but a different officer.
Still no word from the city administrator. I feel the city will say no "commercial" beekeeping which will mean no hobby beeks either. Only bees that will be allowed are the "wild" bees. Ill keep everyone up to date.
The thing I said about the bees on the ground Im not sure what they are. I did not go to the guys house because he siad it was no big deal. I know my bees have been going into our grass and laying on the dirt, I assume getting water because the sprinklers come on every night.
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who is betting that the whin... complainer got stung swatting them in frustration. I've been stung by other things but I can tell they're not honeybees; I'm just not the provoking type. The stings I've taken were from opening outdoor panels to find small wasps residing inside - I've even been stung by a wasp for occupying its flight path. - I'm sure I have a honey bee sting or fifty in store for me, and it will probably be my fault.
I honestly believe that when (hopefully never) the city council sits to discuss the banishment of honeybees you are permitted to present some testimony in their behalf (did this guy buy the place knowing [after] the commercial yard was already established? - can present 'why didn't it bother him when he purchased?').
seriously - I wish you the best of luck - this guy sounds like he's being controlled by a paranoid fear of a relatively benign insect (never-mind vastly beneficial) and I'd like to feel confident that a group of politicians will make the most intelligent decision; I'd also like to feel confident that if you can stand on a cloud you could use a rainbow for a slide.
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I'd like to feel confident that a group of politicians will make the most intelligent decision;
oh well, that kind of sums things up, I will not get political here.
G3
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Doesn't your complainer know that your hives are the only thing keeping the deadly killer bees from invading the area?
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Since the White House is now a bee yard, who else is thinking that a good bit of pressure on our congressmen and senators might get some sort of federal legislation that would prevent local governments from banning beekeeping? Of course that would be overstepping the authority of the federal government, but since they already overstep their authority by so much on so many other issues, why not try to get something in there that benefits us?
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SgtMaj, Good point about the White House having a beeyard. I totally forgot. I will know when they council meets and they already said I will be invited to the meeting to bring up my objections. I would like to know if anyone here thinks 33 hives on 1 city lot (maybe 150' X 75') in the middle of the city is too many hives.
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I would like to know if anyone here thinks 33 hives on 1 city lot (maybe 150' X 75') in the middle of the city is too many hives.
Well I do... I wouldn't have thought they would manage to find enough to forage on in the city to sustain that many hives in one spot... but that's probably not what you meant by the question. That is probably too many for the neighbors liking, which is where the complaints may be coming from... you might be able to keep them from passing any kind of ordinance if you're willing to make some concessions and maybe cut that number in half to keep the neighbors happier.
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It seems there is enough for them forage on because if we are not in a droght all hives with two supers are full of honey. Not sure what the city will do but it will be interesting once the decision is made for either side.
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I would head it off at the pass. Help write the ordinance. Here's one from beesource boards (the admin won't let me post links)
The keeping of honeybees in four (4) beehives or less shall be permitted as an accessory use to a residential principal use on any lot. On any lot of 10,000 square feet in size or larger, more than four (4) beehives may be kept, provided there is an additional lot area of 2500 square feet for each hive. In all instances, there shall be one (1) adequate and accessible water source provided on site and located within fifty (50) feet of the beehive(s). In addition, if the landing platform of a hive faces and is within ten (10) feet of any lot line, there shall be a flight path barrier, consisting of a fence, structure or plantings not less than six (6) feet in height, located in front of the hive.
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Ok I talked with the City Administrator today. He siad there was a person in town trying to get a petition together to outlaw bees from the city. The administrator said he was having my boss, the Police Chief, and the Building Code inspector look into what the city can do or if they can say the bees were a nuisance. So far the chief and the code inspector said there is nothing illegal about keeping bees in the city and they can not declare the bees as a nuisance due to the beeks house is in in a zoned commercial area.
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Ok I talked with the City Administrator today. He siad there was a person in town trying to get a petition together to outlaw bees from the city. The administrator said he was having my boss, the Police Chief, and the Building Code inspector look into what the city can do or if they can say the bees were a nuisance. So far the chief and the code inspector said there is nothing illegal about keeping bees in the city and they can not declare the bees as a nuisance due to the beeks house is in in a zoned commercial area.
Time to do some educating, write a letter to the Editor or the local paper about the amount of food without bees, etc. Volunteer to help write an ordinance for keeping bees with restrictions on number of hives per lot size by squarefootage, providing a water source, barriers that force bees up when close to sidewalks, etc. Commercial and Agricultural zoned areas should be exempt from all restrictions except for the squarefootage and water source.
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Ok I talked with the City Administrator today. He siad there was a person in town trying to get a petition together to outlaw bees from the city. The administrator said he was having my boss, the Police Chief, and the Building Code inspector look into what the city can do or if they can say the bees were a nuisance. So far the chief and the code inspector said there is nothing illegal about keeping bees in the city and they can not declare the bees as a nuisance due to the beeks house is in in a zoned commercial area.
Time to do some educating, write a letter to the Editor or the local paper about the amount of food without bees, etc. Volunteer to help write an ordinance for keeping bees with restrictions on number of hives per lot size by squarefootage, providing a water source, barriers that force bees up when close to sidewalks, etc. Commercial and Agricultural zoned areas should be exempt from all restrictions except for the squarefootage and water source.
...and the commercial guy doesn't get thrown under a bus.
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Ok I talked with the City Administrator today. He siad there was a person in town trying to get a petition together to outlaw bees from the city. The administrator said he was having my boss, the Police Chief, and the Building Code inspector look into what the city can do or if they can say the bees were a nuisance. So far the chief and the code inspector said there is nothing illegal about keeping bees in the city and they can not declare the bees as a nuisance due to the beeks house is in in a zoned commercial area.
So get a petition together to keep beekeeping legal in the city... I'll bet yours gets more signatures... sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, right?
I second the bit about the letter to the editor... also try for interviews with the local media/radio.
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Do you have natural allies you can enlist in the struggle? Are there garden clubs or bird watching clubs in your town or county? They generally understand the value of bees for pollination and production of plants/berries that make their situations better. In North Carolina we are fortunate to have State inspectors who are very interested in helping beekeepers and are willing to have positive input into oridinance development or modification. Do any of your universities have bee programs? They may be willing to supply information/speakers. You want to pack any meeting with polite and interested supporters.
The president of our local beekeeping organization posts speaking requests on our fourum board. We try and make sure that every school and every group that requests a speaker (with or without bees in tow) has one come. The more people that understand the importance of honeybees and the difference between the bees and other bees/wasps, etc., the better. This is a longer term approach, but one that is likely to pay dividends.
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All great info. I think Ill try to write a letter to the newspaper and see what happens. The other beek is going to set up a booth at the county fair and Im going to try to help with that. He usually takes his ob hive and sels some honey. Im going to print out a bunch of facts about bees and post them up or give them to him for him to display. Do any of your towns or goverments have their ordianceses posted on the internet? If so can you post their link.
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when you write your letter try to bring it down to the local level also. when you write about how much of the worlds food production depends on honeybees, it will go through the heads of most city folks. they believe in the safeway miricle....as in....thier food miraculously appears in safeway, wrapped, prepared, and ready to eat.
try to appeal to the backyard gardener. point out the increased yield of local stuff that people might grow in your area. fruit trees, squash, etc. backyard gardeners already know, but other city folks will find the idea 'charming'.
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Out of the blue the city administrator sent an email to the code enforcement about the bees. If a neighbor is able to provide proof (documentation) from a doctor that says the person is "allergic" to bees the city would say the bees were a nuisance. The beekeeper will then have to reduce the number of hives on the property but not necessarily get rid of all hives. My question was how allergic do you have to be for that to take affect. Reduce the number of hives to what? There is no ordiance so Im not sure how this is going to pan out.
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First, isn't everyone allergic to bees?
Second, time to do splits to get the number of hive up 8-)
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Second, time to do splits to get the number of hive up
great idea. you probably don't even have to do splits. just put empty hives up. the city council is not going to go through your hives!
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You might want to propose a ordinace for them to adopt. Here is the florida model for the ordinace hope it helps.
http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/beekeep_ord.pdf
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Well, I vented in a lengthy post that, fortunately for those that wld have suffered through it, was lost. Suffice it to say that it appears that their approach is the "Don't confuse me with facts. My mind is made up." Typical ignorance by choice. Sadly, COMMON sense is so very very rare. Especially in government.
Regardless, best of luck, Shawn. I think "small" decisions like this affect us all eventually. STAY SAFE!
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Thanks for the info.
pdmattox, Thanks for the ordiance. The administrator and the chief of police are both from Flordia so they may adpot the ordiance. The only thing I dont like is the numbers you can have. I only live on two city lots, 115' X 175'. That would mean I could only keep 2, I think.
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And WHAM! :shock: :shock: The beekeeper was served with a "warning" saying the bees are a nuisance and the beekeeper must reduce his humers from 34 to 3 within 5 days. No ordinance in place, beekeeper was granted a license from the city, talked to city attorney before getting hives, and has water buckets throughout the yard. :-x :-x
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isn't it meaningless without an ordinance?
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He means there is no BEE ordinance. There is a nuisance ordinance. It can be used for anything that irritates the powers that be.
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wow, talk about dirty underhanded politics ( wasn't the commercial guy in a commercially zoned - or unzoned- area?) and I realize I'm degenerating my questions into stuff for a courtroom, but 1: why could they order him to reduce his hives if he's in a commercial, agricultural, or unzoned area? 2: if the commercial beekeeper decides to fight, doesn't he get a ton of credit if he had his operation before the primary complainant moved himself in (as in - they guy buying the house didn't know there were 100 hives next door?)
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Why don't you run for office. We need more beeks in office.
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I vaguely remember something about : If there is a brawl in congress (among congress) it stays in congress. :evil:
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Here's a novel idea... have the irritating neighbor declared a nuisance and have him removed.... :evil:
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Have you gone over to the neighbors yard to see what the fuss is about? Find out if they are really bees. If they are show him that they are not dangerous. Suggest solutions. Talk to him and educate him. Give him some honey. Convert him to the way of the bee..
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All great info. I think Ill try to write a letter to the newspaper and see what happens. The other beek is going to set up a booth at the county fair and Im going to try to help with that. He usually takes his ob hive and sels some honey. Im going to print out a bunch of facts about bees and post them up or give them to him for him to display. Do any of your towns or goverments have their ordianceses posted on the internet? If so can you post their link.
I live up here in Denver and we just passed a ordance for the city of Denver to allow bees to be kept in the city lots. They are noe working on Chickens I would check it out.
Dave
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Well lets see what the next move is, check. not mate.
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Here's a novel idea... have the irritating neighbor declared a nuisance and have him removed.... :evil:
I'd bet the farm that if the beekeeper winds up legally in the right - he's got a darn good harassment suit in his hands.
even better, highlands, you're in Colorado as well "precedents" etc.
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The whole thing started because there were bees in the neighbors dog water dish and in the back of his truck where he kept old pop cans. We talked to the neighbor several times to let him know how to keep the bees away but he was determined to shut the guy down. I dont think the model ordinance helped because it said 2 or 3 hives per 1/4 acre or less. Anyway, I drove by last night and noticed the beek had his pickup in theyard and some hives were gone :-\ I think this will really put a damper on him not being bale to have his bees close. Ill keep watch and let everyone know what happens.
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if the beek had the resources I would remove all of the hives and replace them with about 20 hives that did not have any bees in them. Let the nosey neighbor see the empty hives and call in with complaints that "the beek has moved even more hives into the yard", then let the cops or who ever investigate and find empty hives. This would make the nosey neighbor look like the cronic complainer that he really is.
G3
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Wait a minute. 33 hives on a small lot in the middle of a city is absurd. As much as I love bees, my 5 backyard hives throw out alot of annoying bees during a dearth. For someone who enjoys no economic or recreational benefit (like this complainant), and who probably has a normal fear of stinging insects, it's not unreasonable for him to try to solve his problem through the city. The fact that the beek's yard is zoned industrial isn't a free pass. He certainly can't launch rockets or do blasting, and launching (33 x 45,000) bees can also impact the surrounding community.
A bee ordinance is probably the way to go. None that I've seen would allow such a large operation in the middle of a city. A reasonable, well thought out ordinance would go far to preserve everyone's rights.
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a reasonable, well thought out ordinance would go far to preserve everyone's rights.
no ordinance preserves everyones rights. NO ordinance does that.
it does not matter if there are 3 or 33. bees will still be there. i guarantee that this person will be no more happy with a few hive than with many.
a couple of years ago, i bought the equipment of a beekeeper who had died. he and his wife had kept many hives on a larger city lot. it can be done and done well. when a person own property they should be able to do with it what they want as long as what they are doing is not actually harming someone. doing something that someone does not like, is not the same as doing harm.
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I have to respectfully disagree with you there Kathy. Ordinances codify limits to behavior as well as intrusion by government. That includes the misuse of governmental instruments (police, code enforcement) by people for their own interests. By enacting a reasonable ordinance for the keeping of bees, everyone is held to an objective standard. As it stands now, a catch-all nusance ordinance can be misused to limit beekeeping within this city. These, very broad codes are subjectively interpreted and do more damage to people's rights than a limited, precise code.
You're correct that it's likely that the beekeeper may be unhappy with the number of hives that he may be allowed after the ordinance is passed, but the complainant is likely to be just as unhappy that he didn't get beekeeping outlawed. that's called a reasonable compromise. The truth is that too many hives in a densely populated area WILL impact the community. There are beekeepers in downtown NYC who succesfully keep bees. They practice it in a reasonable manner to minimize impact.
Your definition of "actual harm" is also subjective. A homeowner's right to watch his grandchildren play in his yard is just as important as a beek's right to keep bees. If he is petrified of bees, he can't enjoy his property. That's actual harm. All of us know that living next to 33 hives is different than 4 hives. Fighting against a reasonable compromise in this case will probably doom beekeeping in this jurisdiction.
I also disagree with you in thinking that it's us against the government. Like you, I also love the Constitution. We ARE the governmemt, and the governement is US.
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a homeowner's right to watch his grandchildren play in his yard is just as important as a beek's right to keep bees
a desire is not a right. it is because we have come to believe desires are rights, we have lost so many real rights.
it is us against the government. we were actually set up to have an adversarial relationship with our government. if you read the writings of the founders, they admonished us to keep our government in check. we have failed to do that.
a community may set up whatever laws it wishes, but for each law, a freedom is lost for someone. those laws that restrict property use and activities, restrict day to day freedoms the most.
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Thats one reason I could never live in the city or a subdivision. I need my elbow room. I don't understand why people move from the city to be in the country and then want to make it into a city again. But then again the country boy can't go to the city and expect to make it country.
they will finally work it out and the beek will end up loosing out, I would bet on that. 33 hives on a lot does sound a bit excessive though.
G3
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It's called the "social contract." We do give up some freedoms for greater protection. I think any of us would object if a biker gang rode onto our property and set up camp. Too bad their freedom to do so is restricted by laws created by government.
But back to beekeeping, my hat is off to Shawn, who obviously balanced his personal views with his professional need to provide fair and balanced service to all of his constituency. That's rarely an easy thing to do.
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I think any of us would object if a biker gang rode onto our property and set up camp.
they would not do that because i would protect my property rights. :-D
the social contract is why so many people in cities believe that government is the answer to all. i just have not figured out if it is laziness, or stupidity..
and back to bees...let us know how it all turns out. i doubt it's at an end.
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I cannot even believe this nonsense.
Colorado needs a lesson from left leaning Berkeley CA: The City Council is poised to transform all the city's parks and open spaces into habitats for bees. If the council approves the resolution, all future landscaping would be "pollinator-friendly" flowering native plants intended to attract bees, bats, butterflies, moths, hummingbirds, beetles and flies.... (http://sanfrancisco.about.com/b/2009/03/24/bee-friendly-berkeley.htm)
The public REALLY needs to be educated. Bees are " more likely to fly away or simply buzz loudly if they're irritated. Stinging is not their first choice.."
I resent that every sort of bee, wasp, hornet, yellow jacket and the like, get lumped into one category that is to be KILLED or FEARED. What is up with that??? :? It is childish, and in my opinion, ignorant. Our food supply DEPENDS on these gentle, helpful creatures!!
Somehow, perhaps with the good First Family's assistance, we can raise awareness and tolerance of these beautiful and crucial links in our food chain. 8-)Power to the Bee Keepers and All the Bees!~~!
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Well out are gone except for 4. I kind of agree that 34 hives is a lot for being in the middle of the city but like Kathy said 4 or 33 there will be no difference, especially when he makes them super hives and sets then next to the fence :-D. The neighbor will still see bees in his yard no matter what. The guy said he did not want to fight it and has a cousin with some land 1 mile outside of town to put his bees on. I know we both get calls from the city to get swarms or hives but now instead of free it will cost.
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>>> I know we both get calls from the city to get swarms or hives but now instead of free it will cost. <<<
Now your thinking, may 'em pay. That's one thing a politician understands and thats money, especially when its going out and not coming into their pocket. Just hope they don't decide to kill the bees themselves instead.
G3
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especially when he makes them super hives and sets then next to the fence
There's the ticket. I wonder if he were to make them double queen hives, would you consider them one or two hives? To the beek, we all would probably agree they are two hives. To the lay person, one. So he could technically double his yard size without anyone realizing it.