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Offline SapperSteel

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Winterizing
« on: October 20, 2013, 03:39:11 am »
I've had a devil of a time trying to successfully winter-over hives here in SE Idaho.

I started with six hives (Italian) in the spring of 2011 (2-lb packages w/queen) which did well that summer and fall.  My wife set these up that spring with help from my adult children, and a son-in-law as I was in SW Asia at the time.

In the fall of 2011 my son-in-law and I winterized the six hives by wrapping the hives (all of them comprised of 2 ea deep supers at the time) in roofing felt.  I lost two hives that winter.  Four of the six made it through the winter and thrived during the summer of 2012.  I noted in spring 2012, when I removed the roofing felt wrapping, that the felts did not allow water to transpire out of the hive and as a result my inner lids showed water damage on the interior side and there was some mold, not much but none-the-less unmistakable, in each of the six hives.  Though the four hives that made it through the winter seemed healthy and strong, the mold scared me so I resolved not to wrap them similarly in the future.

Last winter, the winter of 2012-2013, I lost all four of the remaining hives.  I did not wrap them, and we had three consecutive weeks of -20 degree F weather in January 2013.  Come spring I found ample honey remaining in each of the four hives (extracted over 30 pounds from the frames I took out of them in the spring), but no living bees.  I'm pretty sure that they simply froze to death in January.

This past April I bought six more 2-pound packages w/queens (Carnolian) and started again.  All six hives thrived this summer, servicing mostly sagebrush and alfalfa.  I set each of them up initially with one deep super holding ten deep frames per hive, which each of the six quickly filled.  I added a second deep super with ten more frames to each of the six in late May.  Then in July I added a shallow super with ten shallow frames to each of the six.  This fall I took all 60 of the frames from the shallow supers.  I found 15 of them fully drawn-out with capped honey, another four at least partially drawn out and capped on one side, and one partially drawn out on one side and filled with honey but not capped -- the remaining 40 were not drawn out or filled to any significant degree.  I extracted a total of 27 pint jars of light amber honey from the 20 shallow frames that had been at least partially drawn out.

When I took the shallow frames, I reduced each of the six hives back to two deep supers, total of 20 deep frames, per hive.  My plan for winterizing them this year is to stack straw bales around each of the six hives.  My hope is that this will adequately insulate them while also allowing appropriate transpiration of water vapor from the hives.  It may be a fool's errand, though.  I just don't know.

I'm very interested in what advice you experienced beekeepers might want to offer that would help me to get these six hives through the Idaho winter of 2013 - 2014.  Please advise!

Thanks,

Sap

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 05:23:08 am »
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Quite much losses....

First you should have such bee strain which stop brooding when summer flowers are over.
If it continues brooding, the bees will be weak and brooding will consume winter stores.

* In late half of summer take care that hive has enough room to lay winter bees. Extract honey and keep the hive warm for brood rearing

* When summer is over, reduce the bee room to minimum.
.....It means that if the hive has 6 brood frames, it does not need more wintering room.
.....Douple brood hive will need 1 or 2 wintering boxes.

* Have you treated varroa in late summer?

* feed the hives full that they cap the food.

* keep the ventilation modest. A mesh floor open during winter you have 10 times too much ventilaition, because with solid floor hive get ventilation enough.

* direct wind is bad to the hive. It may consume 100% more  food

* insulation saves winter food and help fast build up in spring

The bigger the winter cluster, the better is goes over winter.
5-frame cluster  is minimum to over winter. Small may be alive after winter but they have difficulties to start brood rearing
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Wrapping with plastic sheet or with such watrer proof material keeps the hive wet and bees get bad nosema.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 09:18:43 am »
Sap,
I was on vacation in Yellowstone this summer and went into SE Idaho looking for local beeks. We found a store, Browning Honey. Web site:
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari&ie=UTF-8&q=browning+honey&fb=1&gl=us&hq=browning+honey&cid=0,0,17785409135113886947&ei=LMRjUtrLNIvm8gTWrIAY&ved=0CDAQ_BIwAA
They are near Idaho Falls.
It is run by the daughter and 2 sons of the founder. I talked to the daughter, at length, about bees. She was very helpful.  They run about 30,000 hives, moving around the country. Each of the sons manages 15,000 hives. They probably have some hives that stay local.
If you get a chance, stop in and talk to the owner of the store. I'm sorry, I do not remember her name.
I would recommend that you add insulation to the inside of the telescoping cover of your hives. I use 1/2" metal coated insulation that you can buy in 4'x8' sheets at a good hardware store. I use them more to protect from the suns heat, but also for winter to reduce the condensation. You may want to use the 3/4" one. I seal the edge with caulking to keep the bugs from hiding behind it.
Jim
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 10:06:46 pm by sawdstmakr »
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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 01:26:52 pm »
My plan for winterizing them this year is to stack straw bales around each of the six hives.  My hope is that this will adequately insulate them while also allowing appropriate transpiration of water vapor from the hives.  It may be a fool's errand, though.  I just don't know.
A straw covered hive last winter. 



This is a neighbors.  It survived, but moving bales of straw is more work than moving foam. 

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 01:33:05 pm »
I have experimented with numerous insulation systems to deal with winter freeze outs and used a system of wood hives covered with foam shells in the past (before moving to my current all foam hives).  IMO, the wood + foam shell design works just as well (maybe better) than an all polystyrene hive.  Here is a photo of one of my previous designs.





If you want to stick with wood (and most American beeks seem to), then you might consider some version of a foam shell to put over your wood brood boxes in the winter.  I used 2” thick foam for my shells and the bees did wonderfully.  However you don’t want the winter configuration to have too much volume or else your insulation becomes a freezer instead of a heater.

IMO, the most critical thing you should do in any hive is provide a SMALL top vent for water vapor to escape.  If you go with a foam shell design, you could vent into the foam shell and that conserves the heat of the vapor and still gets the water vapor away from the bees.  Just go into a foreclosed house sometime with no top vents and see what kind of a mess you get when you have moisture and no top vents.  

Wood + Foam shell works well, but it adds cost, bulk, and the need for summer storage so I have moved to all foam in my case.  But if you’re just doing a few hives, the wood +foam shell works well.  Much easier to deal with than bales of straw and it is re-usable.  In Michigan 2" thick sheets of extruded polystyrene sells for about $21; for a 4'x8' sheet.  You should be able to make a shell out of a single sheet.

If after insulating you discover your bees have still declined down to just a couple of frames by late winter, then varroa has probably hit them hard.  At that point the only way to save them is with electric heat.  See the other thread for ideas there.

Offline derekm

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 03:38:16 pm »
....
IMO, the most critical thing you should do in any hive is provide a SMALL top vent for water vapor to escape.  If you go with a foam shell design, you could vent into the foam shell and that conserves the heat of the vapor and still gets the water vapor away from the bees.  Just go into a foreclosed house sometime with no top vents and see what kind of a mess you get when you have moisture and no top vents. ...


NO! why bother insulating if you go and let the heat out... the smallest of vents loses lots of heat...
and why is high humidity  bad for bees when high humidity destroys the ability of varroa to breed? and bees prefer 75% RH?
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 04:07:41 pm »
I don’t disagree agree with you about losing heat through a top vent.  You are correct about that.  However there is rarely a design that doesn’t require a compromise somewhere.  IMO, a top vent is a compromise that needs to be made.  If you have a wood hive + foam shell design, you can vent into the foam shell and not lose the heat in the vapor.  However there is a compromise in that design too; it’s bulky and more expensive.   Bee keeping isn’t perfect, at least not south of Helsinki.

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 05:21:11 pm »
 Bee keeping isn’t perfect, at least not south of Helsinki.

There is sea there.

.view to north



view to south
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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 03:10:18 am »
Nice looking city Finski  X:X 

But you know all that concrete in your buildings is a bad insulator. :(  I wonder if you're insulating the bees better than the humans  :laugh:

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 03:13:37 am »
Nice looking city Finski  X:X  

But you know all that concrete in your buildings is a bad insulator. :(  I wonder if you're insulating the bees better than the humans  :laugh:

That only tells that you do not know much about house insulation .

Concrete is outer cover, or brick, and insulation layers are stone wool or glasswool, or polystyrene.

Between outer cover and insulation there is a air gap, that moisture (rain) from outer cover does not move into insulation.



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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2013, 03:21:38 am »
I think our British friends will confirm that concrete is not a good thermal insulator!  Not enough air pockets.  As for house insulation, I just bought a trailer full of cellulose this weekend!  I got to prepare the humans here at least as well as I prepare my bees.  You know Halloween is coming up soon.  I might need to make up some honey balls for the kids and bees alike  :)

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 03:26:12 am »
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Insulation layers of small house are ready.

Then they istall outer layer, panel, brick or what ever.

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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2013, 03:28:26 am »
You know, some people insulate their HOUSES here with STRAW.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe a bale of straw can insulate as well as 100mm to 200mm of polystyrene.


Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2013, 03:30:13 am »
I think our British friends will confirm that concrete is not a good thermal insulator! 

Yeah. That is very new to us!!!!!!!!
I appreciate more and more your help


Like stone wheels. WE have never invented stone wheels like the British tend to do year after year.
We have not afford to do that.


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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 03:31:19 am »
You know, some people insulate their HOUSES here with STRAW.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe a bale of straw can insulate as well as 100mm to 200mm of polystyrene.



Yes, they are called international idiots. House is too expencive property to play eco-games.

How many mouse families can live there?
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Here is a straw house from Finland



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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2013, 03:40:29 am »
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We have in this country very high quality education system.
We know about engineering things quite much.
.......But, insulation makes bad room mould problems and it is not under control. It is really bad.
If you sell here mould problem house, you must give money back


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Offline derekm

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2013, 05:28:29 am »
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Insulation layers of small house are ready.

Then they istall outer layer, panel, brick or what ever.



british hives

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 01:53:50 am »
My plan for winterizing them this year is to stack straw bales around each of the six hives.  My hope is that this will adequately insulate them while also allowing appropriate transpiration of water vapor from the hives.  It may be a fool's errand, though.  I just don't know.

Sap can you elaborate on what you're going to do with the straw?  Are you going to completely cover the hives with bales of straw?  Are you going to leave any kind of a vent or just assume the straw will breath to some extent?  Some people use the bales of straw just for a wind break while other use them for insulation by encapsulating the whole hive. 

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 03:43:31 am »
.
I know about straw heap, that it is very moist place to keep hive and full of mould.

Yes, I made a cottage once to children and you cannot go into it. It is full of mold.
And molds start to rotten the heap at once.


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Offline T Beek

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 08:11:33 am »
I know -I know, this whole thread has apparently gone mad  :roll:, but as someone who has some experience with 'alternative building construction' I can say with some confidence that the "secret" to preventing mold with straw bale construction is to keep it dry, above/off ground, preferably on a substrate that doesn't rot, with sufficient overhang keeping everything dry.

Can we get back to winterizing bees now?????????  :-D
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 10:54:50 am »


Can we get back to winterizing bees now?????????  :-D

I have "winterized" bees 51 years at same altitude as Alaska.
I have no questions about it and I know how to do it.

1-2 boxes of bees and on average 20 kg sugar.

20% spare hives are good.
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 01:24:13 pm »
Much of Northern Wisconsin can be much colder than much of Alaska. 

Latitudes (you did mean latitudes, right?) mean little in many cases.  Much depends on several other variables, not just "lines" some dude drew on the globe.

Successful beekeeping in Finland doesn't always or necessarily spell successful beekeeping in other parts of the World. 

It must be great (and awfully frustrating) to know everything  :-D heh?

Now can we get back to winterizing bees?  :-P  :laugh:
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 01:52:22 pm »
Much of Northern Wisconsin can be much colder than much of Alaska. 


However, from vegatation map I noticed that Alaska is really colder  place than Finland.

A wide tundra belt goes along the whole coast. We have tundra in the upper most Finland.

But Wisconsin is colder! That I just do not believe. It must be then on 4000 m mountains.



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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 02:01:14 pm »
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 04:59:49 pm by Finski »
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Offline T Beek

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 03:48:58 pm »
Anchorage and Fairbanks both can be balmy when Northern Wisconsin has minus 30F.  During an average winter we can be considerably colder than many parts of Alaska or Finland for that matter.....not like its some kind of competition  ;) .  My point remains that latitudes mean little when comparing weather patterns.

Northern Minnesota gets even colder.  And then we have the UP of Michigan.....well we don't have to go there now do we?  Actually we'll be heading that way soon 8-)
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2013, 04:52:29 pm »


 My point remains that latitudes mean little when comparing weather patterns.



Are you serious? Yes, I studied geography in university too, several years...Lerned something. They we American books.

Like Yakutsk Siberia. Coordinates: 62°N latitude. Almost same as in Helsinki and Anchorage.

Out temp during December - February, all the time 35C-45C

The lowest temp - 72C = -97F

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Offline T Beek

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2013, 05:58:00 pm »
 :deadhorse:  Not sure what it is you're looking for or where you're going with all this, but you win Finski. 

You're right dude!  -97F is much colder than we've ever gotten as long as I've been around Northern Wisconsin.  -42 is our coldest recorded...that particular spell (staying well below zero F) lasted for over 2 weeks...only :-D  went through a lot of wood that month.

So Finski.................What's the point of all this tit for tat you seem to enjoy so much anyway?  Psychologically speaking, it seems pretty clear that its a repetitive, excruciatingly redundant, mean spirited and obviously fear based behavior.  Alas, to be completely honest I'm not sure why I allow you to suck me into this madness all the time, but I'm learning  :shock:

 "A cave is indeed a very dark place"  :)
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2013, 08:20:27 am »
.
if Russia were able TO concure finland 70 y ago,
Yakutsk would be the coldest place in Great Finland
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 10:32:02 am by Finski »
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2013, 10:31:24 am »
:deadhorse:  Not sure what it is you're looking for or where you're going with all this, but you win Finski. 

You're right dude!  -97F is much colder than we've ever gotten as long as I've been around Northern Wisconsin.  -42 is our coldest recorded..

in Finland lowest record is -51C.

Quote
I'm not sure why I allow you to suck me into this madness all the time, but I'm learning  :shock:

On forums men allways try who is a bleep on compost top.
Really stupid debates. But I like to fool guys who are too wise to live ordinary life.

If I would follow these advices, what are given on this forum about wintering, I am sure that I would not have not a single hive alive in spring.

Wintering procedures are simple, when you know what to do, but goooood heavens what carbage guys are able to write ....

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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2013, 10:38:13 am »

 "A cave is indeed a very dark place"  :)

Well. The British beekeepers remind me often that British weather is different than Finnish weather.
That is very new to me. I am good friend with British beekeepers but the best in friendship is the 2000 km distance which separates us. I have told to them too, that their beekeeping is very same as Finnish, but they are 50 years behind us. - They just love that idea..


A Finnish National Hive 50 years ago.  No one use them any more,
because hive has no room enough to modern queens.



A British national hive nowadays


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Offline derekm

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 02:38:59 pm »
This is a british design and made hive not a finnish import... The roof is thicker than those imported from Finland

If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 03:46:22 pm »
This is a british design and made hive not a finnish import... The roof is thicker than those imported from Finland



It would be good, if Britain would have more competition and  own production. Prices are awfull in Br.

But look at the wall. It is 35 mm thick. Finnish is 40 mm.

The price.

British ....£ 102 ...British national jumbo. Stainless steel mesh in floor.
Finnish....£ .36....Langstroth. Price in Finland

They are boath fine. It depends how a beekeeper uses them.

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Finnish price
roof    11
box   .16
floor   15
   42 euros


I make my own roof, inner cover and floor. Price is about 5€. I get a box with 11 euros.
With £ 100 I get 10 langstroth boxes from producer.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 04:04:26 pm »
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Another British plastic hive model, price £ 500 !!!

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Offline OldMech

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 07:08:44 pm »
Yikes!!!   I actually read the whole thread     :shock:      I am still wondering about wintering  LOL!!!    My basic prep is to wrap as the op mentioned with felt paper   Not a good idea?   Has worked moderately well in the past....
   I put a 2" spacer on the top brood box.. paper/sugar.. Inner cover on top of the spacer, flipped so notch is down to provide upper entrance and ventilation. (1" by 3/8 notch in front)  2" foam on top of that cut to fit the hive, and the telescoping cover strapped down on top of that because of the wind here... The foam spaces the cover up enough to allow free access to the 1" notch.

   Moderate losses.. usually not because of wet.    Only gets to about -20 (f) here for about two or three weeks during a normal winter. Bigger problem is blowing snow on a moment to moment basis filling in the bottom entrance... hence the flipped inner cover for top emergency entrance/exit... so can we get back to wintering now??   What do yall do?
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline GSF

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 08:46:56 pm »
(OldMech)<What do yall do?>

I'll be able to tell you next spring.., I hope my answer isn't "Buy more bees"
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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2013, 12:05:16 am »
It would be good, if Britain would have more competition and  own production. Prices are awfull in Br.

But look at the wall. It is 35 mm thick. Finnish is 40 mm.
 
Didn’t you tell us last year that YOUR hives are only 20mm thick polystyrene (and grow ice sticks) and thicker insulation didn’t make any sense?  Now 40mm is the cats meow?  

Finnish price
roof    11
box   .16
floor   15
   42 euros
 

Michigan Hive: (40mm walls)





Top = 1/8 sheet of polystyrene foam = $2.5
Bottom = 1/8 sheet of polystyrene foam = $2.5
Box = 1/3 sheet polystyrene + 1/3 hardboard = $12

Total = $17 = 12 euros!

When is Finland going to catch up with Michigan?

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2013, 02:31:13 am »

When is Finland going to catch up with Michigan?


Michigan Jesus, who follows?

Those self made hives will be ruined in couple of years. I have done those from insulating board.
Waste of time.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 02:50:42 am by Finski »
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Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2013, 03:06:09 am »
Couple of years huh. :laugh:  Have you read any studies about how long it takes polystyrene to decompose?

Touchdown Jesus in Ohio (made from Polystyrene) lasted many years before being struck by lightening.
 


Offline BlueBee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2013, 03:22:27 am »
I am still wondering about wintering  LOL!!!    My basic prep is to wrap as the op mentioned with felt paper   Not a good idea?   Has worked moderately well in the past....
I do winter some wood hives and some do survive, but when I started to do nucs I realized it was really time to ditch the wood and go to foam.  I wintered about a dozen 4 frame medium nucs last winter in foam.  That size of colony won’t survive in wood boxes in Michigan.

Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2013, 04:18:18 am »

Couple of years huh. :laugh:  Have you read any studies about how long it takes polystyrene to decompose?



Yes, it burns in 10 minutes. I burn them outdoors if needed. one box is 1 kg plastic.

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Offline T Beek

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2013, 06:34:34 am »

Couple of years huh. :laugh:  Have you read any studies about how long it takes polystyrene to decompose?



Yes, it burns in 10 minutes. I burn them outdoors if needed. one box is 1 kg plastic.

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Shame, shame on Finski!  Oh so he's the one burning all that crap coming from Finland, heh?  I guess we should have known :-P  Hey Finski, next time burn them inside, let us know how that goes :-D

I've got 4- 5 frame NUCs (started mid August) colonies seperately stashed inside one of my LONG Hives for this Winter.  All four were doing OK 3 weeks ago but my set up doesn't allow for opening/feeding when its this cold, each NUC has access to about a pound of dry sugar, all I could fit and still keep things separate.

 This is A first try/experiment for me since that LONG Hive colony finally passed on this Spring after surviving three winters.  I'll let you all know how it all works out come Spring.  I do have 2" foam on the bottom and top of the LONG Hive.  Wish my bees luck.  If successful I'll start making NUCs this way every season.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2013, 08:10:53 am »

Shame, shame on Finski!  Oh so he's the one burning all that crap.

haha hah. What you are doing there hah hah

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Offline buzzbee

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Re: Winterizing
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2013, 07:46:14 pm »
As many have decided to bicker and become irrelevant to the thread ,I am locking it. It's a shame, it started off well. I see a little baiting going on here and it will stop. Period!! I am not spending the whole winetr babysitting a few. It is easy to make it pleasant for the rest of the membership, so watch your step. We tolerate  a bit but most of the ones trying to do the baiting know who they are, and I will sign off without further comment.

 

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