Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: nepenthes on December 13, 2006, 04:13:41 pm
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How do mites Infest colony's in the first place? :?
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How do mites Infest colony's in the first place? :?
Drones comming from infested hives. Drones can travel up to 30KM and are welcome in every hive in the summertime. When Varroa was first seen in Denmark, some beekeepers marked some Drones and those was seen 30 km away.
Robbery is the most reason for Varroa infestion.
Swarms from infested hives.
Beekeepers arrogant to the problem! Coursing spread of Varroa!
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When Varroa arrived to Finland from Russia, it spread 50 km ( 30 miles) per year what ever we did here. Russians warned 30 years ago us that it is coming but it had allready arrived across the border. Here is some land corners where varroa have not yeat spread.
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but where do the mites originate from...it's like they come out of nowhere :? same goes for the SHB
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The mites originated from the bees in South East Asia where they transfered to EHB when they were imported into the area. The drones from the native SEA bees were allowed into the EHB hives causing the intial infestation. After that they've seemed to gradually incompass the world except for Australia and the lower Island of New Zealand. The ones in the states are got here via drones hitching rides on cargo containers or by imported bees that were infected.
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This calls for a design of a DRONE Excluder at the hive entrance, allows drones to leave but not return. Keep out Drones from other hives, your drones cannot get back in, but who cares. Would this work ???????
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Hmm...drone excluder, I don't think it would work, they have to eat food, otherwise we would have no mated queens (LOL). Great day. Cindi
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Hmm...drone excluder, I don't think it would work, they have to eat food, otherwise we would have no mated queens (LOL). Great day. Cindi
Here's my thought on the matter. Taking in the above account on how mites spread from one colony to another.A Drone fills up for his flight for a gig with a Queen, if he is successful, he dies, if not, he returns to the colony to eat some more and fly again the next day. Now with the Drone Excluder (just an idea in my head) would allow a drone to leave, but not return ( he of course would starve and die). They are expendable, are they not ? The Queen would replenish or maintain the drone population as she sees fit, right ? Now a Drone with a mite riding on his back from another colony could not penetrate a clean colony. Now this idea would go south due to the fact that a mite infected forager full of nectar or pollen would be welcomed by the guards. Well, enough of my jabbering on an idea. I am still learning about the mighty mites, sooner or later we will prevail. :-D
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BeeHopper, the varroa can run. It has legs.
The drone can´t cross the drone excluder, but they will try and will touch body-body another bees. Varroa are fast, and go up, go down, go in, go out... every go you want.
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>They are expendable, are they not ?
Everytime you kill a drone, the bees spend the effort to raise another one. Had you NOT killed the drone the bees could have spent those same resources to raise a worker. Drones are NOT expendable. Drones are expensive.
The less drones that are in the hive, the more drones the bees will raise.
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>They are expendable, are they not ?
Everytime you kill a drone, the bees spend the effort to raise another one. Had you NOT killed the drone the bees could have spent those same resources to raise a worker. Drones are NOT expendable. Drones are expensive.
The less drones that are in the hive, the more drones the bees will raise.
OK. I see your point. But what about Beekeepers who utilize the DRONE foundation for IPM control of the mites, removing the frame/foundation and freezing both the drones and mites. Would this be too much for the colony to handle ?
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nope, beeks around here use this a lot, out of 10 frames, they leave 1/2 of a frame without foundation, that part is bound to have drone cells, and they cut it out before the drones hatch. colonies are doing fine, but who know how much better of would they be if they wouldn't do that.
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>But what about Beekeepers who utilize the DRONE foundation for IPM control of the mites, removing the frame/foundation and freezing both the drones and mites. Would this be too much for the colony to handle ?
Too much? No. But they would have raised workers instead of drones, with those same resources which would have made more honey. I figured drone trapping would be my fallback plan for not treating, but so far small cell has been adequate and I'm not willing to waste all those resources if I don't need to.
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>But what about Beekeepers who utilize the DRONE foundation for IPM control of the mites, removing the frame/foundation and freezing both the drones and mites. Would this be too much for the colony to handle ?
Too much? No. But they would have raised workers instead of drones, with those same resources which would have made more honey. I figured drone trapping would be my fallback plan for not treating, but so far small cell has been adequate and I'm not willing to waste all those resources if I don't need to.
Yep ! More Workers, More Honey = More Honey, More Money :-D
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Hmm..reading all the posts about the drone stuff. I have to agree with Michael about the bees wasting resources in raising drones with the drone foundation. I don't think that I would encourage excessive drone raising, I would go for more workers. Treat with formic acid in spring and use other natural methods for the varroa control and eradication throughout the summer. Then the bees would not have to raise so much drone in the drone cell foundation. My thoughts on this. Great day. Cindi
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Danish Varroa strategy recommended by Danish beekeeper association (DBF):
Formic acid in spring
Drone removal in summer
Oxalic acid in boodles autumn.
those few drones removed aginst what is normal loose of field bees is nothing.
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I forgot to tell what should be well known, that Varroa prefer Drone brood.
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Jorn, I've seen pictures of the drone comb frames, it is green, so it is very noticeable. Is this the colour of the drone comb frame in your country too? I would think it would be world standard. Great day. Cindi
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I have not seen plastic dronecomb here in Denmark. I have cut out half a foundation plate and then let the bees build the dronecells themself. I have placed those frames as a second from left very uniform, so that it is easy just to lift supers of and pull out the frame with drones, then with a knife cut the dronepart out and put the frame in again. a one minute operation. I have average used 5 hours a hive total included honey harvest, honey handling and honey sale. We calculate handling 500kg honey ourself, the rest goes to honeypackers.
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have not seen plastic dronecomb here in Denmark. I have cut out half a foundation plate and then let the bees build the dronecells themself. I have placed those frames as a second from left very uniform, so that it is easy just to lift supers of and pull out the frame with drones, then with a knife cut the dronepart out and put the frame in again. a one minute operation. I have average used 5 hours a hive total included honey harvest, honey handling and honey sale. We estimate handling 500kg honey ourself, the rest goes to honeypackers.
Sorry this is a redo of the message. Drone combs are bought whole like other foundation, and placed in a frame like other foundation. When bees are preparing to Swarm you can let them build the dronewax themself from scrats.
You can vertical devide a frame in three parts and use for swarm control. 1/3 normal foundation, 1/3 nothing and 1/3 drone wax. As long the bees build normal brood wax in the empthy 1/3 the bees will not swarm. When they start to build Drone wax in this they will likely prepare to swarm. the 1/3 with dronewax you just cut out leaving a strip as guide.
be aware that bees always are able to trick you and do what they like to , whatever you think you have under control.
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You can vertical devide a rame in three parts and use for swarm control. 1/3 normal foundation, 1/3 nothing and 1/3 dronewax. As long the bees build normal brrodax in the empthy 1/3 the bees will not swarm. When they sart to build Drone wax in this they will likely prepare to swarm. the 1/3 with dronewax you just cut out leaving a strip a guide.
This swam control is very useful advice and tips. but you say 1/3 normal foundation, 1/3 nothing and 1/3 drone wax. How on earth does one get the 1/3 dronewax? I don't understand, please clarify. Great day. Thanks. Cindi
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This swam control is very useful advice and tips. but you say 1/3 normal foundation, 1/3 nothing and 1/3 drone wax. How on earth does one get the 1/3 dronewax? I don't understand, please clarify. Great day. Thanks. Cindi
we buy it as a Drone wax foundation and take a strip as Michael explained and then put in the 1/3 part for this purpose. If you can't buy it cut out a normale build Drone part of a frame (Dronebrood is normal found close the wall in the second frame) put it into the freezer to kill the drone brood and mites, then fix a 1 inch stripe of this into this 1/3 dronepart. The bees will clean the killed brood ut and repair and build the Drone brood cells out from the strip placed as guide strip. When you cut out the normal brood, shift among the first third and the second third.
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For speed, what would the shortest time be that the drone frame would need to be frozen. I would imagine a pretty short time?
Jorn, why would the drone brood be on the second frame usually? Why not the first frame?
I know the bees "have their ways", but sometimes I don't get it. Great day. Cindi
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drones develope in a slightly lower temperature than other bees, that's also the reason varoe likes drone cells more.
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drones develope in a slightly lower temperature than other bees, that's also the reason varoe likes drone cells more.
Mici, aha, now that makes sense why they would be on the outside combs. Did not actually realize that, do you know if the bees actually have to cover the drone somewhat to keep them at all warm, or is the internal temperature of the hive simply enough?
The worker cells must be covered with bees to keep the worker brood the warm temperature, right? Cindi
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For speed, what would the shortest time be that the drone frame would need to be frozen. I would imagine a pretty short time?
Jorn, why would the drone brood be on the second frame usually? Why not the first frame?
I know the bees "have their ways", but sometimes I don't get it. Great day. Cindi
I would practical say one day. But if you put it into quick-freeze a couple of hours.
Reason for the second and not the first: drone need a little warm to developed but not that much as normal brood, so the drone brood is normally placed in the periphery of the brood area.
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You can buy plastic drone foundation, plastic drone frames (Pierco) and wax drone foundation (from Brushy Mt. and Dadant). You can also just put empty frames in a hive that has only worker foundation and they will usually draw it as drone from early spring until late summer. Or just put a shallow or medium frame in a deep box (if you use deep boxes). The will usually draw some drone on the bottom. The reason is that using only worker foundation leaves the bees wanting desperately to build some drone comb. If you use the medium frame in a deep box, you can just cut the drones off the bottom of the frame and put it back. If you use the empty frames or drone foundation, you can freeze or you can just pull them all out with an uncapping fork and feed the larvae to the chickens.
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Michael, I use deeps, for all bee matters. I think that using the shallow frames would be a good idea, I will implement that this season, I'm on the varroa destruction. Great day. Cindi
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According to Dr. Marla Spivak you can freeze brood with dry ice and they sometimes still survive if you don't do it for long enough. I wouldn't go less than 24 hours.
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According to Dr. Marla Spivak you can freeze brood with dry ice and they sometimes still survive if you don't do it for long enough. I wouldn't go less than 24 hours.
but if you DON'T want them to die, a temperature difference as small as one degree celzius will be fatal.
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I put medium foundation into Langstroth frame. Bees draw drone cells in the free area. When drone brood are capped, I cut them off and dig into earth. Bees make at once new drone combs into gap. Freezing is really laborous.
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Wow, only one degree could cause death, guess that makes sense. Good day. Cindi
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Gaps where bees may draw drone cells are good. Without arranged places they make drone cells everywhere because they need them.
I use 2-3 gaps in Langstroth frames so they have different age drone brood. The cycle is 4 weeks and mites go into larvae just before capping.
But however without mites some areas where bees may draw dronecells are good.
But to use whole foundation at one time for drones is wasting. When you give this kind of frames after one week interval bees have all the time old larvae to catch mites.
In pic I have put medium foundation in Langstroth frame
I just cut the drone comb away and often give to birds or dig into ground.
Chalk brood have destroyed part of drones.
(http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/kuhn.GIF)
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Finsky, interesting picture and comments. Now has not the queen laid worker eggs in the cells above the drones yet? An old timer beekeeper I was to see last spring does something similar, but he just uses the medium frame alone and puts it in the 3rd position he said. He said that the bees will draw the drone size comb below the bottom of the medium to fill up the space (using deeps). This is the same idea as you do it looks like? Do you use only deeps Finsky? Great day. Cindi
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I use deeps and mediums. But mite catcher should be inside brood area. Bees are eager to build drone combs. No need to buy foundations.
Queen is often in a hurry to lay drone eggs and fill the purpose of life.
Freezing is too labourous to handle combs. No idea.
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But mite catcher should be inside brood area. Bees are eager to build drone combs. No need to buy foundations.
Why inside brood nest. When removing the drone frame for killing, would that not disrupt the brood nest area and cause disruption in area? I would think it would be easier to have the drone comb nearer the outside so one could just go in quickly and take out without disturbing brood area. Great day. Cindi
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Why inside brood nest. When removing the drone frame for killing, would that not disrupt the brood nest area and cause disruption in area? I would think it would be easier to have the drone comb nearer the outside so one could just go in quickly and take out without disturbing brood area. Great day. Cindi
Drone larvae attract mites from worker cells. You lift the frame, cut comb along the wire and put it back. It causes no dispruption. Towards autumn bees fill the gap with worker cells.
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Finsky, that is awesome thought. Great day. Cindi
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Wouldn't be easier to have small cell bees and mite resistant bees
kirko
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Probably, but that is alot of work to get the bees regressed from what I understand. Cindi
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Wouldn't be easier to have small cell bees and mite resistant bees
kirko
Where you get mite resistant bees? I bought them but they do not kill mites.
No authority recommend small cells and regressed bees. Oxalic acid works fine and it is surely minimum work.
Those drone brood areas are usefull even if you do not have mites. However bees make dronecells here and there. Witch special area they need not to make them everywhere.
I like normal system and it works fine. I do not keep bees for mites.
When someone tells about regressed bees, ask how much he gets honey per hive.
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Back on to the small cell stuff. My Asian instructor when asked about the small cell bees and mites, said basically that there is no proof that the small cell bee has less mites. He keeps over 1,200 hives in Langstroth deeps. Well, it seems that some people really believe in the small cell ,that is good. This is what makes the world go round and an interesting place. Everyone has their own ways of doing things and their own opinions on what works and what does not. Form your own opinions, work them to the best of your knowledge and have a happy life in so doing, have even a happier one in this new year of 2007. Greatest of days. Cindi.
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>No authority recommend small cells
Because no authority has done a serious test of it.
>My Asian instructor when asked about the small cell bees and mites, said basically that there is no proof that the small cell bee has less mites.
Has he tried small cell?
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All the tests on small cell have been limited to one season or less. This is not enought time to adequately regress the cell size down to 4.9 because even with small cell foundation the bees raised on 5.4 comb will build 5.1 comb. A real test of small cell should involve 3 seasons in order to fully regress the comb size, the bees, and see the effect on the hive as a whole. Those who swear by small cell have used it for at least 3 years.
The scientific method is great, but too often acedamia trys to prove something on a time frame that is not supportable of the results being sought. It's like baking--the cake doesn't turn out well if not baked in the oven long enough.
When acedamia discovers their error of length of time we might get better result. Even some of the tests I've read in Bee Culture and American Bee Journal are short, hardly supporting the conclusions. One test of 4-6 weeks is an indication not proof, yet acedamia cites it as proof.
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But why to make that whole system when mite is not a broblem. Why to do such which is not needed? Varroa is very small problem in beekeeping. I don't mind to argue about that thing. Everyone may bless theur own opinions.
I like big bees and I keep them. I have had regressed bees and I do not like them. Some like black horsed and some brown horses.
Norwegian horse is quite nice. It is very popular here. They say that vikings used that horse.
(http://gymnasiet.rattvik.se/bilder/utbildningar/häst/Norge13.jpg)
And regressed horse from Island seems very same
(http://static.flickr.com/1/1201520_10f0671bf2_m.jpg)
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Norwegian Fjords are what they are called here. Very nice horse. Quite popular. A regressed work horse from the look of them. :)
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You Know I think Dee and Ed Lusby have been useing small cell for a very long time they are very successful.They don't treat no essiential oils no medicine no dope nothing they even make there own foundation.I think small cell is they way of the future.Michael Bush uses small cell and has his bees draw there own comb so the wax is pollution free also .
kirko
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Dee and Ed started regressing and stopped using ALL chemicals in 1983 because of the Tracheal mites. They have not used any chemicals in the hive since that time. That's 23 years.
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Hmm..reading all the posts about the drone stuff. I have to agree with Michael about the bees wasting resources in raising drones with the drone foundation. I don't think that I would encourage excessive drone raising, I would go for more workers. Treat with formic acid in spring and use other natural methods for the varroa control and eradication throughout the summer. Then the bees would not have to raise so much drone in the drone cell foundation. My thoughts on this. Great day. Cindi
Just this. Mites prefer drone brood because of the lower development time for drones. If you then remove drone brood you will have removed the most of the infections without using chemicals be it formic or what so ever. That’s the way the bee’s original natural get away with it. Abandon hive leaving the drones back with the mites. You just mimic this by removing Drone brood. And please remember that is the only legal way to remove mites with in the summer when supers are on.
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i have a friend with a couple of Fjords. she loves them. seems most of my friends have imported or fancy registered horses :-). i have owned a good many, but as with dogs, the best horse i have ever owned is a mutt. i'll have to see if i can find a couple of pictures of her before the winter coat and mud came on :-)
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Finsky,
What an awesome picture of those two people on the horse. The smile on the face is remarkable. Now if I were to be seated on a steed of that beauty, I would have a beautiful smile too. I love the markings and colour, simply astounding beauty.
Horses are beautiful, there is no other animal in my eyes that has this beauty. And yes you are right. some like black, some like brown, if all liked the same colour, what a boring world we would live in. And this goes for the colours of the apis meliferra too. Great day. Cindi
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Horses are beautiful, there is no other animal in my eyes that has this beauty.
Do you have still same when you have met this Russian beauty
http://www.horse-of-dream.vsau.ru/
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Horses are beautiful, there is no other animal in my eyes that has this beauty.
Do you have still same when you have met this Russian beauty
http://www.horse-of-dream.vsau.ru/
Finsky, ha, now that is a horse of a different colour. It think that it needs braces!!!! Too bad I can't read Russian. My Lithuanian friend would get a real kick out of this picture, and I think he could read the text too. Got any other funny ones that you could post on the forum. Love any kind of funny picture stuff. Great day. Cindi
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Everytime you kill a drone, the bees spend the effort to raise another one. Had you NOT killed the drone the bees could have spent those same resources to raise a worker. Drones are NOT expendable. Drones are expensive.
The less drones that are in the hive, the more drones the bees will raise. -michael bush
I'm curious to know if anyone has done any research on raising drones that are free of varroa, or resistant to varroa, and then inserting them into the hives. Or even if people have tried to cut out drone brood and then add a bunch of drones that are free of varroa. One would conclude that this would discourage the worker bees from producing more drones, and would help with the varroa, correct? This would be interesting to try...
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