Against better judgment ....

[twintrades]

I know i should'nt do this but im going to do a cut out this week. Ive posted before about possibly doing this. Now im set on doing it. I know I know. I shouldent  do it. I have no hive experience. But There free, she cant afford an exterminator, and if i screw up the only thing ive lost is gas money. In the end she wants me to kill off what bee's / comb is left in there and seal it up.

Ok so here i go i have a small chainsaw to expand the hole. Im going to use a torch and drywall tool to heat up and cut the comb with. Then ill string the comb into empty frames. Trying to take out all i can. ( she wants to save the tree  :roll: ) I would then try to use a Homade bee vac to suck up as many bees as i can. After taking out as much as i could i would dust the entire cavity with sevindust using a air compressor to blow it as far as i can up into the cavity. ( whereing my resperator of corse.)

Questions would be

1 how long should she expect the bees to hang around after i seal the tree up. ( was going to bring a chunk of 1/4 ply and screw it around the tree then silicone it shut.) ?? she is allergic to bees

2 Will it hurt the tree to have a void in it with honey comb and dying bees inside ??

3 How do you  get the hive into a car with all the bees in the air ? Should i after sealing up the hive just let the bees try to get into the hive box ?  the drive is 1 hr from my house so i would relly like to just get there do the cut out and then go home.

[iddee]

I was going to try to help you out, but when you mentioned Sevin dust, I decided it just wasn't something I wanted to be involved in. If you change your mind about that, I might try to help. We aren't here to poison bees.

[twintrades]

4 Also should i have a regular hive body ready ? Or would 2, 5 frame nucs be good enuf ?

5 Is there a better pesticide than sevindust ?

6 should i keep the bees i suck up in the vac seperate or try to dump them in the hive bodys ?

There are many more questions for shure but for now lets start with those. And feel free to chime in with your own 2 cents. Concerns advice ect. Just please dont jump in saying what an idiot i am. I know i should just leave it alone. i just dont want a hive to die with no one trying to salvage something. If i dont get the queen ill buy one from a local guy in town. And requeen the hive. Btw how long afer getting it in our yard should i wait to check it and re queen if neccesary. ? Lastly should i use a queen excluder to keep her in if i do get her home ? Or just letter ride ?

[twintrades]

I dont want to poison them either. Im not killing any im taking out. Just what i cant get in the tree hive. Shes allergic to them and dosnt want them to get back in and rebuild the hive. Im nbot shure of what else to say. If it was me i would leave it alone and just get swarms outa the tree. But with her being allergic she want's them "Gone."

If you have a better idea please share it. Im open to anything but i cant dig up the tree and take it home.  :-D :-D

[iddee]

Once the comb and queen is out, just let the hive set there until dark and all the bees will be in it. Move them at dark. Plug the tree with grout, foam, or whatever. Fill the void. Trying to bee proof is usually fruitless. If you must kill bees, do so with a non lasting spray, not a powder.

[Kathyp]

that tree is probably done for anyway.  take a look and see if you can tell her which direction it will fall when the next storm comes.

[twintrades]

Im shure the tree is done for. She just wont let it go.

What kinda spray would get up in the tree ?? Id rather use a short term spray.

[Kathyp]

to be honest, this sounds like the kind of person i'd walk away from...there will always be bees...there will always be nuts.  better to wait for the bees and avoid the nuts. 

[annette]

I disagree with what you said, about the only thing you have lost is the gas money. You are starting out beekeeping on the wrong foot, you should know what you are doing and helping the bees is the most important thing here.

The whole affair feels bad to me and I don't usually get involved with things like this, but I just feel badly about the whole thing.

[Jim134]

to be honest, this sounds like the kind of person i'd walk away from...there will always be bees...there will always be nuts.  better to wait for the bees and avoid the nuts.  

 NO I would not bee walking away I would bee RUNING
 We are here to help bees not to poison or kill bees
 And this whole thing is  Against my better judgment ....

   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[landellapiaries]

Being that you are completely new to bees, I strongly suggest you do not do this.  Beekeepers are not keeping bees to poison bees first of all.  Second, you don't have the required equipment and do not know what to look for while doing a cut out.  By starting out on the wrong foot, you are 100% setting yourself up for failure.  I understand the excitement about getting bees, but do yourself a favor and wait for a package or a nuc.  I have not seen the pictures, but I am assuming that since she wants the tree saved, you cannot cut the tree  in a way to access the colony completely.  A trap out would be the way to go, but being you don't have any equipment or eggs/brood, it would not work for you. 

If you really want to save the bees, look up people who do swarm removals in your area.  Maybe they would do it and let you help, but going at this alone will IMO not save any bees but bring death to the entire colony.  Just my .02

[twintrades]

If i dont try to do anything there going to die anyway. She is allergic to them. And will have a freind come over and bomb the tree.

I know i dont know what to look for in a cut out. Thats why im hoping to have some of you fine folk guid me. The only person in out group that has done a cut out in our area is a old gent. And he would rather not do any anymore. So the only other option is that i give it a go.

Im not out to posion bees either. I would not like to but in order to make her happy and safe id have to get rid of what i cant get to. Im sorry for those of you that dont understand. Im meaning no dissrepect, i guess i just think of bees differnt. I like em wantem but in the end there just bugs. And get exterminiated with everything else people are afraid of.

If i could get her to cut the tree down i would and im trying to get her to let go of it. If she will then i could just cut up as far as i would need to. Then cut the tree piece by piece.

Now would any one like to give me some pointers and hints of how to do it ? Trust me if i go over there and it looks bad ill walk away.

[deknow]

without experience you are more likely than not to rile the bees up and make them upset.  if she is allergic and gets stung while (or even a month later...even if it is yellowjackets).
there are so many problems with the situation, and you are not prepared.
deknow

[Scadsobees]

We really do want to help, but don't want you to waste your time... I'll point out just a few little things that you may not realize and will make what you are thinking of completely pointless....

The cavity that the bees are living in is probably at least 3 feet of the trunk of that tree/branch.  If you want to get that comb out, it is almost impossible to get out without opening up that entire section.  That would essentially destroy the tree.

If you don't open up the entire section, you'll be grasping at handfuls of the comb from the bottom (or top) essentially destroying the hive.  It won't just pop out nicely.  You'll end up with a sticky mess of bees, comb, brood, and honey.  And if you try any heating with a blowtorch...well that will wreck the comb and the bees anyway.

Vacuuming will only get a few bees on the edge of the hive...once you start getting into the hive, all the bees will bunch up as far away as possible from you and you won't be able to vacuum them anyway.

They're going to die either way, the only difference is you'll have spent 3 hours plus 2 on the road and 6 or more gallons of gas for a handful of worthless bees because you'll never get the queen.

I know that you really want the bees, but I would advise you to heed the advise of very experienced beekeepers (some of them have been beekeeping since the hills were formed :D, and others have written books on it) who have seen almost every situation in the book.

But if you still think that you can prove us wrong and you somehow succeed...I'll be the first to say "Great job!!"  ;).

Rick

[David McLeod]

My $0.02. Do not touch this job with your worst enemies ten foot pole. Nothing but trouble from the get. First off it is in a tree which is always ten times worse than in a structure. Structures can be disassembled and reassembled, trees cannot. Structures have known and predictable cavities trees do not. Structures are not living creatures that die when you cut them nor does a simple cutout in a structure usually involve a support member and risk the collapse of the structure. Almost all tree cutouts do involve either the main support member (trunk) or a large portion of it's mass (large limbs). That's just dealing with a tree cutout.
Now you have the real danger. An unknowing and unreasonable human. This lady is entirely in the wrong IMO just wanting them gone no matter what. Believe me when I say that I speak to hundreds of people just like her. This foolish woman is looking for a fool that will do as she wants based on her fears rather than seek out professional services. I will not work for idiots as almost always they are just to dumb to understand the services I provide and will blame me for their own stupidity.
This is the kind of idiot that will completely discredit the sound advice given to her by a professional like myself. Mainly because she can't believe I have the balls to actually ask for a fee my services, somehow this lazy grasshopper has got the idea that all things out the ordinary must be done for free. As a result the minute you set foot on her property she will own you. You are providing her labor at no cost, slavery by definition. God forbid the poor tree dies, it will be all your fault.
So she can't afford a professional, tough titty. Not your fault or responsibility. I don't practice medicine or law though I could if you buy into the while can't afford it sob story. I get those kind of folks off my phone as fast as possible. An old friend had a phrase that fits "you can't fix stupid".
I shouldn't even get into the application of a pesticide but I will. So your not charging, that clears you with the state but not from liability. When the ambulance chaser serves you at least you won't face administrative fines and code violations justbthe loss of everything that you have. Never ever apply a product without first obtaining the training, licensing and liability coverage that will separate your professional from your private assets. You may think "good samaritan" applies but it does not. What will apply is her insurance,if she even has any, and they in turn shall apply the full court press to you.
Oh, but it's for the bees you say. I say horse apples! It's all about you, you just can't wait to "save the bees", "show your skill/knowledge/compassion/fill in the blank". Unless your catholic and have an inside shot in Rome they ain't giving out sainthoods these days. Walk away, bees are free your labor should never be. This ain't the very last colony of bees on the planet a better one will be along in a minute.

[deknow]

Im going to use a torch and drywall tool to heat up and cut the comb with.

:?

[Haddon]

I don't think your going to listen but I will chime in don't do it.

The bees will not die unless they are at her front door she is not going to do squat people are lazy she has a tree in her yard with the center rotted out if that did not motivate her to do something then I don't know what will and not enough money to call a exterminator. If you don't act a idiot and tell her how to kill bees she will not know and if they do anything they will just spray wasp spray at it. If you want my true thought on that I hope the hive is African kick the holy crap out of them after they have sprayed and most likely the hive will live threw the spray and they will leave it alone till next year.

Next your are doing your self and all the rest of us a disservice by even discussing it with out talking about her paying you. I had one last weekend in the same town I picked up that log in told me it was a exposed colony under the eve they had already exposed the hive old lady rooked me over the phone into 100 buck for a exposed hive. I get there and I see 3 pound of bees hanging from the eve look in the attic comb three foot in and a space I would have to lay down to remove it from. Told the old lady if I had to go in that attic it was going to have to be more she says what 200 I feel bad for her and the old man so I say yeah. Old man then tells me its to darn much that another beekeeper said 75 mind you one that never showed up. So every time you talk to someone about doing it for free you hurt us all. So you see no can ever make everyone happy it was 50 miles from my house so that would have been 50 bucks in gas and then he wanted me to crawl in his attic to get them out I hope them bees stink him to death. I could not care what the hell he does with them wants me to crawl around a 200 degree attic for 50 buck I would have rather mugged his butt lite him on fire. Yeah he ticked me off the more I think about it the more ticked I can get.

Now are you willing to buy a queen?
If not you are going to kill the hive I have done it if they go without a queen for the next month they will not build up fast enough and will die, you will have nothing.

I will post a pic of that hive on another thread. I had never seen that many bees.


 

[caticind]

Can't agree strongly enough with the advice you are receiving above.  If this is against your better judgment, then why on earth are you doing it?

The plan you've laid out reveals that you do not know enough yet about bees or trees to successfully pull this off.  
The likeliest results include at least one and possibly all of the following:

1)  You get the "better judgment" stung right out of you. (If I recall you are using homemade gear including a veil that does not attach to your jacket.  Are you filled with pleasant anticipation at the thought of being stung in the eye?)

2) You destroy most of the comb and kill most of the bees.  (Since your beevac is also homemade, it is unlikely to work perfectly the first time.  The most common malfunction is that the suction is too strong and you smear your bees into a fine paste.  Also, there is no occasion on which a torch is a good way to cut combs.)

3)  You will poison some fraction of the remaining bees. (Thus earning the general enmity of the experienced keepers on this forum who you were probably counting on to advise you about how to keep the bees you get out of the tree alive in your homebrew equipment.)

4)  But you will likely not get all of them, nor seal the tree completely, so the colony will persist for sometime and/or the honey left inside the tree will attract scavengers and potentially a new colony of bees.  (Thus earning the enmity of the lady who wanted them gone and who you were hoping to "help".  )

5)  While you make the hive as mad as possible, the bee-phobic lady may well get stung.  (Earning you not only enmity but also potentially bankrupting medical liability if she's actually allergic.)

6) In the process of cutting the tree, you will most likely kill it.  (Repeat enmity and property damage liability, since she's so attached to the tree.)

7) And that's only if you are lucky enough not to accidentally drop it in an uncontrolled manner onto whatever or whoever is underneath.  (If there's a sizeable colony in there, then this tree is rotted out and hollow.  How thick is the remaining ring of wood?  Do you really think you can cut away one side of that cavity and have the tree still hold up?  Maybe you can, but you won't know until you do it.  What's under the tree?  Repeat enmity, liability, and add potential wrongful death lawsuit.)

Whatever good you think you are going to do is really and truly outweighed by the likely ills.  Attempting to execute this kind of hare-brained plan gives beekeepers a bad name (and that's before we even get to the bit about doing it for free).  

I advise you stop now, before you give yourself a bad name.

[Kathyp]

one last thought....there are occasions when the bees need to be killed.  sometimes there is no option, sad as that might be.  that's a call that the lady needs to make with the help of good council.  that's not a call that you, the inexperienced person, should make or advise on.  she also needs the advice of an arborist. 

the best thing you could do for her is see if there is someone who knows how, and is willing to do, a trap out. advise her to have the tree looked at.

she doesn't want to pay for anything and that should be a big red flag.  i have done things for free because i know that the farmer/land owner doesn't have much.  that's my call and it's usually easy outbuildings.  when someone asks me to do something for free, that sets off my alarms.  those are usually not the people you want to deal with.

get your stuff together and put a swarm catch ad up on craigs list.  easiest way to get free bees.  while you are waiting for that call, read and watch everything in the removal section.  that's not a replacement for hands on, but it's a start.  ask some of the people in your bee club if they will take you along for cutouts or swarm catches.  as if they will use you as backup for swarm catches.  most years i get more calls than i can take and i really appreciate having someone who will take the ones i can't.

and that's all i have to say about that.......

[jhs494]

Please do an internet search for a beekeeping organization in your area. Someone locally will usually be willing to help.

Going by your profile information there is an Oneida County Beekeepers Organization. The contact name is listed for them if you google search it.

There you may find someone perhaps better equipped to handle this removal and maybe you can assist them and get your feet wet that way.

Local clubs are great resources.

Good Luck!

Joe

[Tommyt]

Do it!! enjoy the fame and misfortune!!
above there is probably 100 years of experience telling
you something you can't hear
back to
Fame,Misfortune
You maybe a future Star on
Watch More truTV Presents: World's Dumbest Videos

You also said against your better Judgment
If you have a better Judgment
Listen too it :?

hope the tree falls before you get there
and no-one gets hurt in the process
 
BTW I came on here wanting to learn
and I have..............
However I am still here, still Learning
I am learning by Listening and taking
advise from those above
OK I'm Done
Tommyt

[Jim134]

I know that you really want the bees, but I would advise you to heed the advise of very experienced beekeepers (some of them have been beekeeping since the hills were formed :D, and others have written books on it) who have seen almost every situation in the book.

But if you still think that you can prove us wrong and you somehow succeed...I'll be the first to say "Great job!!"  ;).

Rick

Are you talking about me  :? Been beekeeping since 1957


 :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau: :lau:


    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Boom Buzz]

Okay, first off, I would follow the advice of 100 + years of beekeeping here and walk away and wait for some easier bees.

That said, trying to be creative, what if Mr. Against Better Judgement was able to use bee quick in a large dose to force the bees out.  For instance what if he were to push a hose down toward the bottom of the cavity and squirt a bunch of bee quick through the hose.  Then stand ready with the bee vac to suck up the bees as they came out?  Just a thought...not sure if this would work.  If it is successful and enough of the bees are forced out then maybe spray a bunch of cotton balls with bee quick and putting them in the cavity before sealing up the hole.   No insecticide used.  Hopefully most (98%) of the bees are evacuated.  Tree gets sealed with some level of safe bee repellent is used.  Probably minimal honey recovered.

Again, just trying to be creative with a bee friendly solution...

John

[twintrades]

Ok well i went ahead and did it anyway. Im Glad i did ! I learned a lot. And thank fully the lil girls worked with me. It seems lie the hive had just swarmed. Ans didnt requeen its self. I found no brood at all. ( yes i know what to look for.) Just a lot of honey and Nector. I made a shop vac bucket style beevac. It worked great! 1/3 a five gallon bucket full of bees. Only 4 DOA. Weather was nice and i was in part shade.

Tree was huge ! She said its not big on the phone..... Makes me wonder what is big ? Anywho Not even one sting. And twards the end of the cut out there were to many bees in the bucket to suck up. So i ened up just putting the lid on the bucket. And with my hands scooping up large hand fulls of bees and placing them in the Hive i brought. ( stange feeling holding all them buzzing in your hands. As i said i couldent belive how nice they were acting. I ran outa room in the hive and bucket had to call it quits. I had a load of bees and a lot of comb 10+ frames worth. So i finished taking out ALL the comb in the cavity leaving only a little that just flated out. And there still were a ton of bees. So i told the lady i would set up 1 hive body and a nuc i had, with some of there comb to hopfully entice them to take up residence in one or the other. And told her they might re build the original hive. She said come back in 2 weeks and do it again if you want. LOL she was a nice lady even signed a realese paper for me. So in 2 weeks ill go back and see if anyone is useing the hives. Or remove more comb from the tree. Time will tell. Now for some pics !

Stared with this hole cut out


Ended with this !


over 8 ft long.

[Kathyp]

there probably is a queen.  if they just swarmed she  may not be mated or laying yet.  when you go back, she will be where all the bees are if you have left the hive there.  keep us posted. 

[twintrades]

Ya ill letchall know what i find. Forgot to mention there were around 16 swarm cells all were uncapped.

[Mike Tuggle]

Did you not see the queen or were the bees you put in the hive body not fanning the "she's here" signal?  It may take a while even with a laying queen to get over the stress of the removal but I would think, even during the comb transfer, that you'd see some behavior clues that you have her.

[Scadsobees]

Looks like you departed a little from your plan!! ;)  The tree took a little hit though...  looks a lot more fun the way you did it versus the way you described.

When you say "uncapped queen cells"...did they have larvae in them? 

I'm curious to see what the bees left behind will do.  If they had some brood there they go into the hive you left, or they may not stay at all.

[yockey5]

She may want this tree, but it will be down the first time a big wind hits it. Who will she call then?

Secondly, with all the bees you have posted as getting, do you really think it had already swarmed? Just curious.

[VolunteerK9]

Why couldnt you do a trap out instead? Far less invasive-that tree is a goner. Hope shes not the type to sue if it takes out a house or an outbuilding when it comes crashing down.

[twintrades]

Lol She signed a release form for me ! In it i stated i was not liable for any damages. To herself or outbuildings ect.

When i was cutting out i told her how big it might get and she calle her logging friend ( guy has all the big guns i guess) And i talked to him he said if it looks like its gonna go he'll just take it down for her. And as for the bees it was a huge hive and Like i said No Brood at all.....? Like it swarmed and the existing queen died the colony had no one to lay so the young developed and just started working ? Also there was a rathre large amount of drones i thought. And a freind said that with all the queen cells its not uncommen to have that happen.

Yea i kinda had to go out in left feild for this one. I HAD a plan. got there and threw it out the window !Lol :roll:
Im guessing the bees that were left in there will try to rebuild. Im hoping there gonna swarm and leave. Or at least use the boxes i left. Time will tell i guess.

The bees were fanning but not at the end so mabey i did get the queen ? The hive here is still on cleanup duty. Got messy when i was transfering comb. and im letting them rob the rest of the uncaped stuff in a bucket. There no threat of hive robbing around me.

Ill post more pics and info later when i get a call to come back a a week or two.

[Scadsobees]

I'd guess they swarmed a couple of weeks ago and there was one virgin queen in there somewhere (unless she'd started laying already).  If you didn't get her, your bees will dwindle away.  If you did get her, the bees in the tree will dwindle.  They are usually quick to run and quick to fly, so your chances of having got her are less than optimal.  You should know in 2-3 weeks if there aren't any eggs in your new hive.

[twintrades]

Im going to put on another deep tomorrow. And foundation frame. THeres a guy in town who has queens mabey i should get one . Should i get one now or wait a week ? Just dont want the bees to abondon me.

[twintrades]

Ok i found her ! :lol:

[Tommyt]

Ok i found her ! :lol:

YOUR A DAD .............................


congrats :-D

[Scadsobees]

Cool!  Just make sure that "she" isn't a "he"  :-D

Nows a time to keep an eye on them but mostly let them bee.  They don't like cutouts, and my experience is that they'll requeen if there is trauma like that and a new queen.  But she should start laying eggs if not already, so that shouldn't be a huge setback, they won't do it until she's layed first.  Quick checks, just get in there till you see brood or eggs, then get out again.  In a couple of weeks they should be settled in.

[twintrades]

so about 3-4 days in between ??

[iddee]

I would make that weekly.

[twintrades]

Ok i wont poke around but once a week.

[greenbtree]

Just my two cents for next time - a release form puts weight on your side but does not guarantee that you would not be sued.   If you have not already, there are a lot of videos on the web (See JP's excellent videos) of cut outs.  You can learn a lot from them (They are entertaining too!)  I know you didn't have the time on this one, but now that you do it's time to sit back and say "What could of been done better?  What equipment problems did I have (or not have, but could of had if X had happened).  How can I fix those problems for next time?  Oh, and a warning on the bucket vac (I have one and it does work great.), NEVER leave a big bunch of bees in one for very long (I'm talking minutes/hours not days - and the bigger the bunch of bees the shorter that time is.)  They can overheat and die quick - I killed about four pounds of bees that way once.  Long, hot cutout, and you think "Oh, they should be o.k. for the forty minute ride home... WRONG!  I won't get into the whole "Should you have done it, and should you have charged." thing, enough others have weighed in on that. Only time will tell whether this was a good idea for you or not.

JC

JC

[twintrades]

Yea this had a big learning curve. I learned alot. And know how to be better prepared for the next.

[twintrades]

Well we went back out there. THe owner said there was a mellon sized group there. Well by the time i got out there there was a grape sized . Musta finaly left or was a passing swarm. Any how i swithed out my Nuc for a differnt one. I just threw together today. ( i wanted my good one back) THis one im leaving there and its baited with lemon grass. Well see whats going to happen. The owner said she would have her friend staple the door shut W/ screen. And drive it here if they get a swarm ! They come to town every other week or so. Sound like a plan to me !! Just have to have another to switch out with them. Thell keep baiting with what ever i send.

Mabey i could take some boxes and honey and have them set up some around there for me. That way i could have more out in a better spot and not have to drive so far. And they would get free honey. Thats next yr tho.