Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: JordanM on February 18, 2008, 06:59:02 pm

Title: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JordanM on February 18, 2008, 06:59:02 pm
I was wondering if you had a frame and drilled holes about an inch apart all the way around the frame and then ran a thin wire back and forth through them all would you need starter strips. I have built 1 but have not tested it out yet seeing it is the middle of the winter and am just starting out at this and dont even have bees yet, but it seems strong.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: randydrivesabus on February 18, 2008, 07:09:43 pm
the starter strips aren't there for strength.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JordanM on February 18, 2008, 08:32:30 pm
The bees should no where to start though.
 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: tillie on February 18, 2008, 11:42:25 pm
See Michael Bush's website about how to use foundationless frames:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

Linda T in Atlanta
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: CBEE on February 19, 2008, 09:42:22 am
The bees know to start at the top but to them it's just a big open space and can build any direction they want. The starter strips give them the direction YOU want them to go.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 19, 2008, 10:17:53 pm
The bees know to start at the top but to them it's just a big open space and can build any direction they want. The starter strips give them the direction YOU want them to go.

So will the wedge on a top bar.  Just remove it, turn it sideways and re-install it so that it makes a rib along the bottom side of the top bar.  The rib makes a starting point.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: watercarving on February 19, 2008, 10:31:37 pm
Unless you already have the frames why not just try some top bars and save some $$ while you are at it?

Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: CBEE on February 20, 2008, 08:48:22 am
Brian,
I guess about anything that protrudes from the center of the bottom of the bar will work. Has that been your experience ?
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2008, 09:56:35 am
I guess about anything that protrudes from the center of the bottom of the bar will work. Has that been your experience ?

Yes,  I've used coroplast (corrugated plastic) strips made from signs.
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/photos/d/326-1/Picture.jpg)
(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/photos/d/328-1/Picture+012.jpg)
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: DennisB on February 20, 2008, 10:00:07 am
Robo,

It looks like you wired the frame along with using the starter strip. Were you able to extract using an extractor without damage?

DennisB
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2008, 10:28:45 am
Yes,  the wires help with extracting, especially when the wax is not attached on the sides or bottom of the frames (which is quite common with foundationless frames)
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Ross on February 20, 2008, 11:11:56 am
I just rip a bevel on the top bars and assemble the frame.  No insert needed.  It goes really quickly, about 15 minutes to do a bundle of 100 top bars.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: CBEE on February 20, 2008, 01:14:51 pm
Robo.. Thats what I thought.. Great pics
Ross.. I have read other places about making top bars that way or just gluing a triangle to the bottom of the bar.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: jsmob on February 20, 2008, 08:08:56 pm
I have read that just using popsicle sticks inserted into the groove of the top bar also works.
Just think of all those Krunch Bars you would have to ( Sorry, get to) eat. :-D
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: buzzbee on February 21, 2008, 07:42:06 pm
Heres an empty frame placed in the hive!
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l65/kwrabbit/Beekeeping/IMG_3853.jpg
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Jerrymac on February 21, 2008, 11:12:34 pm
Where do you get that white comb?
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 21, 2008, 11:34:44 pm
Where do you get that white comb?

That's what you get when the bees draw natural comb without foundation.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Jerrymac on February 21, 2008, 11:38:52 pm
If seen comb drawn without foundation but I never see it that white.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 21, 2008, 11:49:03 pm
If seen comb drawn without foundation but I never see it that white.

Nectar source or syrup.  Simple syrup will always be white.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Jerrymac on February 22, 2008, 12:32:58 am
OK I guess that is the answer I was looking for. Never fed that much syrup I guess, and one of the removals I did was all brand new, no more than 3 days old, wax. A swam moved into a home under construction. The crew took off Friday and it wasn't there. They called me Monday to remove the bees. The comb was white, but not that white.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: buzzbee on February 22, 2008, 08:19:41 am
I think this was done during the black locust flow.the honey was really light too!
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: catfishbill on February 22, 2008, 09:14:07 am
do you have to put a bevel on the top bar? and a couple of wires to guide them,or just put a frame in there and let'em go.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 23, 2008, 12:42:35 am
do you have to put a bevel on the top bar?

No.

Quote
and a couple of wires to guide them,or just put a frame in there and let'em go.

I just put the frame in and let them start drawing comb.  My experience with exposed wires in frames and/or foundation is that the bees will often leave gaps along the wire.  I don't use wire on foundationless frames as I think the wire creates as many problems as it solves.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: buzzbee on February 23, 2008, 08:42:22 am
This frame was placed between drawn frames,no bevel no starter strip,and no wires.That way if you want chunk honey,nothing else to deal with,or you can easily do cut comb. I was a little skeptical at first about doing this ,but seeing is believing!
I have spun some of these out in the hand extractor as long as they were attached on all sides.Just work slowly and carefully.They seem to stiffen as they get older too. :)
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 23, 2008, 10:09:38 am
Bees will draw out empty frames if they have the resources to do so. According to Don, aka Fatbeeman, crosscomb is a sign of a failing queen. He does a once a yr test whereby he adds an empty shallow frame in the brood nest. If the bees draw it straight down with no cross comb, good queen. If the comb has worker cell, good queen. If lots of drone cell or crosscomb, replace queen.

I see white combs all the time in the wild, these are just newer combs that the bees drew out.  (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2428/dscn2329pf9.th.jpg) (http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn2329pf9.jpg)

(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2908/dscn2186gq3.th.jpg) (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn2186gq3.jpg)
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8914/dscn2184kg0.th.jpg) (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscn2184kg0.jpg)

....JP

Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: poka-bee on February 23, 2008, 12:51:30 pm
Ken  That pic is beautiful, all that pristine white comb!!  I am contemplating using this method as I will know where the wax comes from & they will eventually do their own small cell?

Jody
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: UtahBees on February 23, 2008, 03:44:47 pm
Wonderful thread. Thanks everyone for sharing.

In coming years, I'll use a few foundationless frames to test the queen. Also, I'll use beveled frame and a non-beveled frame to have them start.

Much appreciated

Scott
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 23, 2008, 09:03:56 pm
I was hoping to build about 100 frames today with my new pneumatic nailer and staplers but as luck would have it the casing on the ball valve blew out and I spent the rest of the day disassembling, reassembling, repeat, repeat, in order to get it repaired.  I had to tear it apart 3 times because once the ball valve was replaced the backpressure sensor started leaking.  As a result I only got 20 frames made.  But the serendipity of the day was, as I was looking for parts I found about 20 feet of wood tape.  Just the right width (3/4 inch) to fit in the frame for a starter rib on foundationless frames. 
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 24, 2008, 12:42:57 pm
I was hoping to build about 100 frames today with my new pneumatic nailer and staplers but as luck would have it the casing on the ball valve blew out and I spent the rest of the day disassembling, reassembling, repeat, repeat, in order to get it repaired.  I had to tear it apart 3 times because once the ball valve was replaced the backpressure sensor started leaking.  As a result I only got 20 frames made.  But the serendipity of the day was, as I was looking for parts I found about 20 feet of wood tape.  Just the right width (3/4 inch) to fit in the frame for a starter rib on foundationless frames. 

Been thinking of the pneumatic nailers for my frame building. Brian, please let me know how you like it, and are they pricey, how much are the things, was curious about that too. Many thanks.

....JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: catfishbill on February 24, 2008, 02:31:31 pm
hey jp i have been useing a craftsman 1/4 crown nailer shooting about 1'' staples.it seems to work pretty good,but if pressure is up it will split wood very easily.putting pieces in a bucket of water for a short while seems to help with the splitting.but all in all for a first timer it works good.just watched the you tube video looked cool.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 24, 2008, 02:47:54 pm
Thanks catfish, how much did you pay for yours?


....JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: reinbeau on February 24, 2008, 02:56:35 pm
JP, hubby has a Hitachi 18 gauge brad nailer and he loves it!  He banged out 230 frames in two days, 12 brad nails per frame and glue.  We also have a frame jig from Brushy Mountain, well worth the investment.  I think we paid $89 for the nailer from Home Desperate (it was on sale).

He just said to tell you the only thing wrong with it is the plunger is plastic - that makes him nervous that it may break with heavy use, and he doesn't know if it's replaceable or not.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 24, 2008, 03:08:57 pm
Thanks Ann!!!


....JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: catfishbill on February 24, 2008, 06:58:26 pm
I think it was between 50-75 bucks but this was several years ago.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2008, 01:12:25 am
If you shop around you can by an air compressor with brad nailer or stapler pretty cheap.  I bought a Wen 2 hp 4 gallon pancake tank with brad nailer for $149.00.  I've since picked up an automatic tool oiler and other gagets on specials from Harbor Freight.  With a little expermentation I've found that 1 inch 18 guage brads at a setting of 75 psi works best.  Drives them flush and doesn't split out the wood.  However, there is still the problem of hitting a knot and having the brad curl back through your finger or hand if not careful.  With the jig and double nailing each end piece to the top bar it takes about 20 minutes a jig full.  That includes set up and removal.

I made a jig (I think Maddox posted a picture) that holds 17 frames.  I had wanted it to hold 16 because that would make 2 supers worth of frames in one pass.  But I mismeasured a tad and it will hold 15 with topbars all up or 17 with top bar up, top bar down, top up, etc.

Look around Ace, Lowes, Home Depot, etc, often offer a combo compressor/nailer combo at a reasonable price from time to time.  If you want to go all out Harbor Freight offers a 3 hp compressor with 5 gallon pancake tank and a stapler, brad nailer, and framing nailer for $329.00 complete.  I think it's a Port Cable brand name.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Jerrymac on February 25, 2008, 01:22:46 am
This is the one I got;

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40115

Then my compressor looks like this one.... But I got it for $99.99 I believe it was

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40400
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 25, 2008, 01:55:58 am
This is the one I got;

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40115

Yes, that's one I got too.

Quote
Then my compressor looks like this one.... But I got it for $99.99 I believe it was

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40400

That's a good one--can't go wrong with it--the wheels are a plus as I've used my air compressor 200 feet from the house when stapling wire on the goat fence.  The point is that these  days pneumatic tools are at a reasonable price so that most any one can afford them.
I have a brad nailer, stapler, and nailer/stapler combo I have the stapler loaded with 1 inch staples, 1 brad nailer with 1 inch brads and the other with 2 inch brads.  Out have a 3 way outlet on my compressor so I can run 3 tools at once.  That way I'm ready for what ever I'm building and can build a complete hive by just changing the tool--don't even have to unhook it from the compressor.  The multiple outlet for tools works great when stapling fence for the goats or birds and I can have 2 or 3 people working at the same time. 
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 25, 2008, 03:17:34 am
Appreciate it guys, it seems you have to be careful though, which I will do, gettin' a brad through the finger doesn't sound like a spring picnic to say the least. This is the one I have, think its enough to run the brad/staple gun?
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00915310000P?vName=Automotive&cName=Tools&Equipment&sName=Air%20Compressors%20&%20Inflators&psid=YAHOOSHOP01&sid=IDx20070921x00003b

May consider this for price but don't think I need all three. May get the one from Harbor freight. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00916853000P?keyword=pneumatic+guns


Thanks for the responses guys, JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: reinbeau on February 25, 2008, 08:53:24 am
JP, I think that's the compressor we have, it'll drive spikes!

(http://annzoid.com/images/Bees/building.jpg)
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Jerrymac on February 25, 2008, 12:29:05 pm
125 PSI. Yep that should get-er-done. The brad nailers really don't use that much air. You can nail a whole lot without having to plug it in and build up air.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 25, 2008, 01:54:49 pm
Thanks for the responses!!! Ann, my wife would kill me if my equipment was stacked to the ceiling like that!!! Nice color green on them boxes.

....JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Tropic on February 25, 2008, 02:05:05 pm
Very beautiful wax... and frame.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Ross on February 26, 2008, 05:50:22 pm
Building frames.....
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig.htm
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 27, 2008, 11:50:15 pm
Ross:

Built a jig very much like it except I can do 2 8 frame supers at the same time, 15-17 frames depending on how I load it.  Who uses glue?  I've never needed to.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 28, 2008, 08:25:39 am
Ross:

Built a jig very much like it except I can do 2 8 frame supers at the same time, 15-17 frames depending on how I load it.  Who uses glue?  I've never needed to.

I would love to not use glue. With a nail gun I'm hoping I won't. Brian ,you soak your frames before you nail them?

....JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: CBEE on February 28, 2008, 09:26:58 am
Jigs make things safer ( normally ) than trying to hold things together with your appendages while tacking things together. It seems people consentrate more on the holding together part than where the nail will actually go or if it extend beyond the pieces being put together. :shock: Saw more than one bad thing happen with framing nailers. Brad guns shoot smaller nails but they still hurt  :evil:
Just a reminder.. be careful
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Ross on February 28, 2008, 02:55:01 pm
The nail is just the clamp until the glue sets.  The glue does the serious work of keeping the frame together.  When you start pulling frames apart trying to get them out of a well propolized hive you'll appreciate it.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: JP on February 28, 2008, 08:55:53 pm
The nail is just the clamp until the glue sets.  The glue does the serious work of keeping the frame together.  When you start pulling frames apart trying to get them out of a well propolized hive you'll appreciate it.

This is why I use glue and can't quite understand the "no glue" concept. Although I would love it if I didn't have to glue.

....JP
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Joseph Clemens on February 29, 2008, 02:37:20 am
Here's a photo of one of my own foundationless frames, full of mesquite honey on one side, brood on the other. The frames in this photo have their end bars trimmed down to 1-1/4", so I cut a shallow notch in the center of the top bar on both sides of each frame, providing a bee space channel between the top center of each frame:

(http://www.wjclemens.com/cordovan-honeybee/images/miscellaneous/Honey_starter_stripC.jpg)
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 29, 2008, 03:31:43 pm
Ross:

Built a jig very much like it except I can do 2 8 frame supers at the same time, 15-17 frames depending on how I load it.  Who uses glue?  I've never needed to.

I would love to not use glue. With a nail gun I'm hoping I won't. Brian ,you soak your frames before you nail them?

....JP

No, water causes the wood to swell making it harder to assemble the frames.  It is definitely a no-no if you're using glue.  I must amend my comment about not using glue--I do use it to secure the wood or cyroplast starter strips to the frames.  I just have never used glue to hold frames together as it is impossible to salvage frame pieces from broken frames if glued without them splitting into pieces.  I gather up the usuable pieces of broken frames and use them to rebuild or mend other frames.  Just something I was taught by my mentor back when we didn't throw everything away. 

You can always identify some one who grew up during the depression (like my parents) because they reuse Christmas wrap and ribbon and save anything that "might" be usuable later.  I got that input from my parents as well as my mentor, it's a habit that drives my wife bonkers.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Ross on February 29, 2008, 04:04:42 pm
You won't have nearly as many frames to repair if you start gluing them together.  They don't split out and fail like frames held only by a nail.  The nail is a wedge in the wood carrying a load.  It creates the split.  When you glue, the load is distributed over the joint area.  Also, you don't get racking of the frame which further stresses the joint and causes splitting.  If you get a weak spot, it can be reinforced with a glued on splint in most cases without dissassembling the frame.  The only time I've had to do that was a topbar with an area of short grain that broke. 
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 29, 2008, 04:31:48 pm
You won't have nearly as many frames to repair if you start gluing them together.  They don't split out and fail like frames held only by a nail.  The nail is a wedge in the wood carrying a load.  It creates the split.  When you glue, the load is distributed over the joint area.  Also, you don't get racking of the frame which further stresses the joint and causes splitting.  If you get a weak spot, it can be reinforced with a glued on splint in most cases without dissassembling the frame.  The only time I've had to do that was a topbar with an area of short grain that broke. 

Your arguement makes sense.  I still have about 80 frames to make so I guess I can spend a few bucks on a bottle of wood glue and see what happens.  Never to old to learn new tricks--just stubborn at sticking with what has worked in the past until I'm convinced that a different way of doing something is better.  I haven't used glue because of the ends, bottom bars, and occassional top bar that breaks during the building process do to grain or knots.  I keep the odds and ends an mend or build more when I have enough to make a box full.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Cindi on March 01, 2008, 11:13:24 am
That was interesting about the nails making splits in the wood that could eventually cause issues with splitting further.  But now I have this queery.  If the wood was even beginning to show signs of splitting, wouldn't the bees seal that split up with propolis making it really strong.  I kind of get the impression that bees like to have things very smooth feeling in the hive and a split would be a rough surface.  Comments.  Elaborate on comments.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, great to live this life we live.  Cindi
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Joseph Clemens on March 01, 2008, 03:47:16 pm
I've always been annoyed by the occasional split that develops when nailing frames together -- though I use glue (polyurethane or Titebond III) and most likely the splits would not be much of an issue. Still I have taken to using a dremmel tool to drill pilot holes for each nail. Since I began doing this I haven't had a single split and the nails always drive true.

I assemble my wooden frames in this same manner whether they are used with foundation, starter strips, or entirely foundationless.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: Ross on March 03, 2008, 03:30:30 pm
propolis isn't really that strong, it just seems that way when you are trying to get your frames unstuck.  If you glue a lid on a box and then pry it off, wood will be torn from either surface.  You don't see that when prying up a lid stuck down with propolis.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: johnnybigfish on March 03, 2008, 03:54:12 pm
Just a quick question.....What is "Racking" of a frame?
your friend,
john
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: reinbeau on March 03, 2008, 04:39:00 pm
Just a quick question.....What is "Racking" of a frame?
your friend,
john
The frame 'twists', comes out of square.
Title: Re: Foundationless Frames
Post by: johnnybigfish on March 03, 2008, 09:12:26 pm
Ahah!
Thanks!
your friend,
john