Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS => Topic started by: Rosalind on January 09, 2011, 12:33:18 pm

Title: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Rosalind on January 09, 2011, 12:33:18 pm
For the record, if my hive came down with AFB, I'm pretty sure it's required that I burn it. My question is more about terramycin prophylaxis.

I am not a huge fan of using antibiotics widely in any livestock operation, largely because this is how resistance evolves and transmits resistant, incurable infections to humans. Prophylaxis simply speeds up the rate at which bacteria become resistant, it's really a non-ideal situation.

Has anyone ever looked into bacteriophage treatment for the Paenibacillus larvae bacteria? Bacteriophage was used for decades as a treatment for human bacterial infections in Soviet Russia, especially in areas where the supply chain was disrupted enough that antibiotics couldn't be shipped there. A smallish lab can easily cook up quite a lot of phage, and it is highly specific--completely harmless to humans or even to any human symbiotic bacteria. The yogurt bacteria living in your guts would be perfectly safe, even if you drank a quart of the stuff. Phage can be shipped freeze-dried and reconstituted like any vaccine that is currently sold OTC for veterinary use. Phage can be mixed to treat several common bacterial diseases at once, and inaccurate dosing isn't a huge issue; the phage will multiply to kill any of the Paenibacillus it contacts, and any excess will dry up and die. The old USSR hospitals used to mix several phages for the most common local diseases with saline and use that to spray down operating room equipment before surgery, it is very effective.

The only reason phage therapies haven't been commercialized very much is mostly for patent protection reasons. Although I think there are a few startup companies currently working on applications for biofilm-type infections, the problem is that it was in use for so long, and is so easy to make, that it's hard to get any intellectual property or licensing deals. But when it comes to prophylactic dosing and using substances that don't affect humans at all, it seems like phage would be a much better choice than terramycin, from a standpoint of pharmaceutical residues in food.

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Criticisms?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 09, 2011, 08:50:08 pm
Do you really think this is something that could be successfully done in the average bee yard?  I don't believe the average bee keeper has the expertise to pull this one off.  Do you?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Michael Bush on January 09, 2011, 09:37:43 pm
The "yogurt" bacteria in your gut is what the bees use to ferment the pollen.  You are on the right track.  If you let healthy microbes live you your hives you may never had AFB issues.

http://bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm (http://bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm)

Some states require burning.  Some require "treatment" but don't define what that is.

http://bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#afb (http://bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#afb)

Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2011, 09:04:23 am
Quote
Some states require burning.  Some require "treatment" but don't define what that is.

In your opinion, is it wise to reuse equipment that you know is infected with AFB?  I can't imagine the bees wanting to live in a torched box.  You can never get the burn smell out.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Michael Bush on January 10, 2011, 11:11:02 am
>In your opinion, is it wise to reuse equipment that you know is infected with AFB?

I've never had to deal with it.  If I did I would probably shake the bees into another hive, burn the frames and scorch the boxes.

> a  I can't imagine the bees wanting to live in a torched box.  You can never get the burn smell out.

The bees don't care at all.  I've seen them pretty well charred and the bees didn't care.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: hardwood on January 10, 2011, 11:24:50 am
MB, Do you think re-dipping in your wax/rosin cooker would kill the spores? Maybe encapsulate them?

Scott
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: AllenF on January 10, 2011, 12:04:26 pm
Good question.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: deknow on January 10, 2011, 12:11:48 pm
...on the one hand, it's pretty well established that foundation made from wax containing spores does not transmit AFB (presumably encapsulation).

on the other hand, if you are dealing with known infected equipment and spores end up in your wax dip, what will you think if/when you do come down with AFB?  will this always be a lingering 'possible source of the infection" in your mind?

deknow
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2011, 01:00:33 pm
Quote
If I did I would probably shake the bees into another hive, burn the frames and scorch the boxes.

can someone explain to me how shaking bees that could be covered in spores into another hive doesn't just spread the disease?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: deknow on January 10, 2011, 01:04:21 pm
http://www.google.com/search?q=shake+bees+afb&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (http://www.google.com/search?q=shake+bees+afb&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: AllenF on January 10, 2011, 01:23:01 pm
When the bees are shook into a new hive, with all new frames, they are then fed syrup with meds for a couple of weeks.   All the spores on the old equipment is burned.   The new hive with meds now has stopped the AFB.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: deknow on January 10, 2011, 01:40:09 pm
...this technique was widely used and known to be effective long before antibiotics.  based on some of the research out of sweden that shows honey stomach bacteria to possibly fight AFB, I expect that using TM in conjunction with the shakedown is why it isn't seen as effective by many.

deknow
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: WPG on January 10, 2011, 04:22:01 pm
Heat kills the spores.

Melting the wax to make foundation kills the spores, not encloser.
 No way to guarrantee no spores on suface.

Charring hive body insides kills the spores. The spores don't bore deep into the wood.

Hot dipping hive parts kills the spores.
 
An Australian Ag. study in 1998 determined and declared that hot dipping would destroy American Foulbrood spores.
The wax/rosin needed to be 150C(302F)-160C(320F) {for safety never above 180C(356F)} and the item needed to immersed for atleast 10 minutes.

Antibiotics do not destroy all spores, just reduce them to a level the bees can handle, so inspection shows the hives are clean.

Weak bees(or weak strains) are likely to suffer from many of the ailments out there. Strong bees keep them under control.

A strong hive is not necessarily a hive of strong bees.
We need more strong bees.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 10, 2011, 09:32:22 pm
...
Quote
this technique was widely used and known to be effective long before antibiotics.


OK I can see where it is effective but it surely contaminates the new hive equipment with spores so if the bees get stressed it is likely you will have another outbreak.

Quote
Hot dipping hive parts kills the spores.

This is what I was thinking.  You could place the wooden parts in an oven for a specific amount of time to kill the spores.  At first I was thinking steam but I see the temperatures are higher than steam.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: fat/beeman on January 10, 2011, 09:49:55 pm
from the commercial stand point I would burn never reuse the equipment. as for tm =no its a cover up. as for shaking bees on new comb might work. for me I have never had that problem and would not take a chance on my living to risk it. we are looking at different stand points hobby/commercial.
Don
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 10, 2011, 10:04:27 pm
...
Quote
this technique was widely used and known to be effective long before antibiotics.


OK I can see where it is effective but it surely contaminates the new hive equipment with spores so if the bees get stressed it is likely you will have another outbreak.

Quote
Hot dipping hive parts kills the spores.

This is what I was thinking.  You could place the wooden parts in an oven for a specific amount of time to kill the spores.  At first I was thinking steam but I see the temperatures are higher than steam.
  the way to do it is shake the bees on foundation-leave them one frame of drawn comb-in 24 hrs
 time the bees will have expelled any honey in there honey gut into the drawn frame-then remove that frame and feed feed feed-RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Jim134 on January 11, 2011, 07:08:55 am
For the record, if my hive came down with AFB, I'm pretty sure it's required that I burn it.

 Not in MA.  states require "burning" or  "treatment" and retesting
 


     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2011, 09:04:56 am
Quote
the way to do it is shake the bees on foundation-leave them one frame of drawn comb-in 24 hrs
time the bees will have expelled any honey in there honey gut into the drawn frame-then remove that frame and feed feed feed-RDY-B

I read the link that deknow provided.  I understand that dumping the bees on to “clean” comb reduces the numbers of bacteria so the bees can regain their strength and be healthy again.  This is similar to treating with chemicals not all the bacteria will die and certainly not all the spores will be sterilized.

What concerns me is #1) the new equipment is now tainted, and #2) these bees had to be weak in the first place to be overcome with the disease.  What made that happen?  Is it genetics or a stress condition?  Another concern I have is how in the world do you get all the bees even if you did decided to burn the whole thing?  If you have an infection in one colony you certainly must have contamination is all the others close by.

I have a question for the ones that “de know”:  What defense mechanism does the bees use to kill off AFB bacteria?  Can we duplicate that mechanism?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: T Beek on January 11, 2011, 09:20:15 am
 8-)Some good q & a here, push-pull, push-pull, feels right.  Keep it up members, this is an important topic.

thomas
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: fat/beeman on January 11, 2011, 10:59:03 am
my question would be those that go with trying to treat a infected AFB hive do think that they going to cure it or it just goes away.do you think you might infect other beekeepers in your area or even wipe out all the rest of your own hives?
Don

 :? :roll:
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: AllenF on January 11, 2011, 11:02:19 am
Georgia requires burning for AFB.    Stop it right there in a blaze of glory.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Michael Bush on January 11, 2011, 11:19:27 am
>MB, Do you think re-dipping in your wax/rosin cooker would kill the spores? Maybe encapsulate them?

The research, as already quoted above, says that, yes.

If you search AFB in "a thousand answers to beekeeping questions" by C.C. Miller he gives the details of shaking them out from an era where there were no antibiotics and it was a well accepted successful technique.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2011, 02:57:33 pm
So far I've seen three treatments for AFB; 1 burn frames and toast boxes, 2 antibiotics, 3 dump onto clean foundation and comb (I didn't see antibiotics in conjunction with this but there may be).

Some answers might be different depending on which treatment.  It would be good to have the treatment stated.

There is a fourth that I know will work (ETO sterilization) but I don't think it was mentioned in this thread.  I saw it somewhere else.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2011, 03:06:54 pm
Quote
Georgia requires burning for AFB.    Stop it right there in a blaze of glory.

This to me is a little like witchcraft.  You can tar and feather a person but that doesn't mean there isn't another one running around. 
It might be required and you might have a good feeling about this but I can guarantee you it won't stop it.  If you find AFB in one of your hives that bacteria and its spores are already in every hive within two miles for sure.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2011, 03:22:25 pm
Quote
the way to do it is shake the bees on foundation-leave them one frame of drawn comb-in 24 hrs
time the bees will have expelled any honey in there honey gut into the drawn frame-then remove that frame and feed feed feed-RDY-B

I read the link that deknow provided.  I understand that dumping the bees on to “clean” comb reduces the numbers of bacteria so the bees can regain their strength and be healthy again.  This is similar to treating with chemicals not all the bacteria will die and certainly not all the spores will be sterilized.

What concerns me is #1) the new equipment is now tainted, and #2) these bees had to be weak in the first place to be overcome with the disease.  What made that happen?  Is it genetics or a stress condition?  Another concern I have is how in the world do you get all the bees even if you did decided to burn the whole thing?  If you have an infection in one colony you certainly must have contamination is all the others close by.

I have a question for the ones that “de know”:  What defense mechanism does the bees use to kill off AFB bacteria?  Can we duplicate that mechanism?

the new equipment is not tatnted -spores are in the honey gut of the infected bee-passed through the feeding
 the new equipment is clean of spores-once the bee expells honey into the ONE frame of drawn comb-you remove it -and there goes the spores in that honey-feeding to flush bee with clean food-new equipment is not tanted-RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2011, 03:28:19 pm
For the record, if my hive came down with AFB, I'm pretty sure it's required that I burn it.

 Not in MA.  states require "burning" or  "treatment" and retesting
 


     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
  california requires burning -no prohalactic treatment-it is illegal to posses infected colony in cali
the info i posted for a way to save AFB colony is only of a informative nature-RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2011, 03:57:33 pm
Quote
Disease spread
When cleaning infected cells, bees distribute spores throughout the entire colony. Disease spreads rapidly throughout the hive as the bees, attempting to remove the spore-laden dead larvae, contaminate brood food. Nectar stored in contaminated cells will contain spores and soon the brood chamber becomes filled with contaminated honey. As this honey is moved up into the supers, the entire hive becomes contaminated with spores. When the colony becomes weak from AFB infection, robber bees may enter and take contaminated honey back to their hives thereby spreading the disease to other colonies and apiaries. Beekeepers also may spread disease by moving equipment (frames or supers) from contaminated hives to healthy ones.
American Foul Brood spores are extremely resistant to desiccation and can remain viable for more than 40 years in honey and beekeeping equipment. Therefore honey from an unknown source should never be used as bee feed, and used beekeeping equipment should be assumed contaminated unless known to be otherwise.[12]

I know it is “wikipedia” but this is not unlike any bacterial infection.  The 100 billion spores go everywhere, on the bees, through out the hive and so on.  I would expect that it is even air borne.  The bees contract the disease by consuming food just like you would if you ate tainted food.  Unless you sterilize the equipment the live spores will be there.  Even that wouldn’t stop a reinfestation because the spores are most likely on the outside of the hive all over the bee yard for the other bees to just bring back in.

Now guessing on my part, the dumping of the bees on clean foundation might work so well because it gives the surviving bees a chance to build up an immunity to the bacteria that is still in the bee yard.

If it is not my SWAG something scientific would have to explain why the technique is so successful.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2011, 04:47:35 pm
>  Unless you sterilize the equipment the live spores will be there. <
 



the spores are not live intill they SPORALATED--must have optiamon conditions
they can stay dormant for 100 years-once the outbreak occurs you must -kill
live spores-yes the spores are everywhere all the time-even in the air-but it is
not contagious till out break ocurs-RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2011, 05:34:18 pm
Quote
Now guessing on my part, the dumping of the bees on clean foundation might work so well because it gives the surviving bees a chance to build up an immunity to the bacteria that is still in the bee yard.


the reason using foundation with one drawn comb works -is the bees have no choice but to deposit-expel the honey
that is in there honey gut-(which could contain the sporalated spores from infected hive)-into the drawn frame-no-place else to put it -once removed-you have clean equipment and clean bees-RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Jim134 on January 11, 2011, 05:36:01 pm
So far I've seen three treatments for AFB; 1 burn frames and toast boxes, 2 antibiotics, 3 dump onto clean foundation and comb (I didn't see antibiotics in conjunction with this but there may be).

Some answers might be different depending on which treatment.  It would be good to have the treatment stated.

There is a fourth that I know will work (ETO sterilization) but I don't think it was mentioned in this thread.  I saw it somewhere else.

 Irradiation Program

 It will do drawn comb and all the wood,plastic,steel and so on.  

http://massbee.org/component/content/article/8-news-item/11-irradition-program (http://massbee.org/component/content/article/8-news-item/11-irradition-program)

    BEE HAPPY Jim :)
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: deknow on January 11, 2011, 05:59:59 pm
1.  in massachusetts in the 1970's, about 40% of the hives had AFB.  it was through extensive inspection and daily burnings that it was brought under control....it is now uncommon to find more than a few cases of AFB in the state per year...well under 0.1%.  to imply that burning is ineffective is pure ignorance.

2.  AFB doesn't affect adult bees.  shaking onto foundation with no brood and no food causes them to use up every bit of food drawing comb to rear brood on.  after 24 hours (some sources  recommend replacing the foundation after the first 24 hours), feed feed feed...the bees draw out the foundation, and it is 3 days before there are any larvae that need feeding...by that time, the bees cleaned things up, and the spore level is (hopefully) not enough to cause reinfection.

3.  Although dipping in molten parrifin _might_ kill the majority of AFB spores (depending on time and temp), molten beeswax is no where near hot enough to kill AFB spores.  Foundation made from AFB contaminated wax does not transmit AFB not because it is "sterilized"..those spores are just as viable as they were on the old comb....but most likely beceause they were encapsulated by the wax, and no longer are in a place where they will be fed to brood.

but i tire of all of this.  i'll leave it to the other list members, and perhaps moderators to keep things in check.  acebird is stating "facts" with "authority" that are so far off the mark that they are harmful to discourse and information available here (imho).

i'm all for asking questions, but much better questions could be asked (and answered) if he put a little effort into educating himself.

deknow
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2011, 06:10:16 pm
Quote
the spores are not live intill they SPORALATED--must have optiamon conditions
they can stay dormant for 100 years-once the outbreak occurs you must -kill
live spores-yes the spores are everywhere all the time-even in the air-but it is
not contagious till out break ocurs-RDY-B

Well I couldn’t find a definition for the word “sporalated”, maybe sporulated?

Technically the spores are not live.  They are dormant but like seeds of a plant they can be made sterile through heat, cold, radiation and maybe mechanical means.  Like a seed when a spore finds a suitable environment then it will turn into the live organism like what it came from.

There really is no guarantee that torching the hive boxes would sterilize them because the spores could be protected in a crevice from the flame.  However an actual sterilization procedure would kill / destroy all spores and of course bacteria in the equipment.  ETO is enormously dangerous to the environment and is not a practical solution to the small bee keeper but maybe heat or cold could be used.  I do not know what the kill cycle is for AFB spores.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 11, 2011, 06:17:11 pm
Quote
but i tire of all of this.  i'll leave it to the other list members, and perhaps moderators to keep things in check.


Didn't you do that already?  Having trouble with that ignore button?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2011, 06:31:58 pm
 
Quote
             Well I couldn’t find a definition for the word “sporalated”, maybe sporulated?          

  thank you for the EDIT but like my friend FINSKI says-*it says same ting*
                                :camp:      RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Jim134 on January 11, 2011, 07:03:45 pm
Quote
the way to do it is shake the bees on foundation-leave them one frame of drawn comb-in 24 hrs
time the bees will have expelled any honey in there honey gut into the drawn frame-then remove that frame and feed feed feed-RDY-B

I read the link that deknow provided.  I understand that dumping the bees on to “clean” comb reduces the numbers of bacteria so the bees can regain their strength and be healthy again.  This is similar to treating with chemicals not all the bacteria will die and certainly not all the spores will be sterilized.

What concerns me is #1) the new equipment is now tainted, and #2) these bees had to be weak in the first place to be overcome with the disease.  What made that happen?  Is it genetics or a stress condition?  Another concern I have is how in the world do you get all the bees even if you did decided to burn the whole thing?  If you have an infection in one colony you certainly must have contamination is all the others close by.

I have a question for the ones that “de know”:  What defense mechanism does the bees use to kill off AFB bacteria?  Can we duplicate that mechanism?


 ABF kills larvae put bees on all new wood and  all new  foundation or foundationless or put bees in  Shipping   Packages for 3 or 4 days no WAX and do not FEED HONEY

     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Rosalind on January 11, 2011, 09:04:39 pm
Jeez louise, I get too busy to check for one day! Look at all these replies! Anyway, I was talking mostly about prophylaxis (treating with terramycin before any infection is officially diagnosed).

Do you really think this is something that could be successfully done in the average bee yard?
Spraying new/inherited equipment down with saline solution in a spray bottle and letting it sit for 20 minutes? Sure, why not?
 
Quote
 I don't believe the average bee keeper has the expertise to pull this one off.  Do you?
Average bee keeper, no. Me, yes (biotech is my career)  :-D State ag extension service, absolutely! A couple of science undergrads could whip up a big batch in a few weeks with minimal lab equipment, no problem.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 12, 2011, 12:55:50 pm
Quote
Average bee keeper, no. Me, yes (biotech is my career) State ag extension service, absolutely! a couple of science undergrads could whip up a big batch in a few weeks with minimal lab equipment, no problem.

So what are you waiting for?  Get started now.  I know it is going to take at least 6 years of work getting it approved by the FDA.  Somehow you have to prove that its use will not affect the natural antibiotic features of honey, affect general agriculture in a negative way, and of course is not harmful to humans.  When and if you succeed how will you (or anyone) get back the capital you spent on this project if anyone can duplicate it so easily?  Apparently, the technique is very old so the processes cannot be patented.  This is another case of money talks.  There will never be a cure for cancer but there will be and has been billions spent on treating the disease.

Now, a cure for MRSA that’s a different ballgame.  If you have the skills to whip up a batch of phage for that you are golden.  I would get right on that one.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Rosalind on January 12, 2011, 03:22:27 pm

So what are you waiting for?

Spring!

Quote
I know it is going to take at least 6 years of work getting it approved by the FDA.  Somehow you have to prove that its use will not affect the natural antibiotic features of honey, affect general agriculture in a negative way, and of course is not harmful to humans.
Something like that. Which is why I asked, does anyone know if this has been looked into? I don't have journal access to some of the older beekeeping things, especially those that circulated in the ex-USSR, and much of their ag science is being lost to posterity.
Quote
When and if you succeed how will you (or anyone) get back the capital you spent on this project if anyone can duplicate it so easily?  
Not much capital required, phage is considered GRAS already for topical and non-injected drugs. It's in commercial use for deli meat, so there is actually minimal tox work to do. The isolation process itself tends to demonstrate specificity, although this is also a simple experiment.

Quote
Now, a cure for MRSA that’s a different ballgame.  If you have the skills to whip up a batch of phage for that you are golden.  I would get right on that one.

See the following:
Gu et al. 2011 Journal of Clinical Microbiology 49(1): 111-117
Pastagia et al. 2010 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Nov 22 epub ahead of print
Capparelli et al. 2007 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 51(issue eight): 2765-2773
However, the Capparelli group has done a lot of molecular work towards a MRSA vaccine. Vaccination is cheaper than phage prep for humans, and the current strategies that hospitals are using to contain MRSA are sort of tilted in the direction of vaccination.

Edited because my "issue eight" came out as a sunglasses smiley face...oops
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 12, 2011, 07:44:36 pm
Quote
phage is considered GRAS already for topical and non-injected drugs.


I think you know more than I do on this subject but if there is any way the phage can get into the honey that humans eat it pulls it out of the topical / non-injected class.

Quote
current strategies that hospitals are using to contain MRSA are sort of tilted in the direction of vaccination.

That sounds like a strategy for the hospital staff but not for a patient that has it.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 12, 2011, 07:53:09 pm
Quote
Capparelli et al. 2007 Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 51(issue eight): 2765-2773

I looked this up.  It figures that something as simple as this was done outside of the US.  People who think that we have the best medical system in the world are so wrong.  We are way behind everybody it seems.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Rosalind on January 12, 2011, 08:20:50 pm

I think you know more than I do on this subject but if there is any way the phage can get into the honey that humans eat it pulls it out of the topical / non-injected class.
Well, anti-Listeria phage is being used commercially to remove contamination from meat intended for human consumption. That was what pushed FDA to add phage in general to the GRAS list. Parenterals (drugs for injection) are sort of a special class vs. oral dosing, due to the way your body processes orally ingested stuff. Most biologics, regardless of origin or type (there are a few exceptions but not many) are thought to be inactivated when taken orally, as they don't survive digestion except in very rare cases with special formulations.

Quote
That sounds like a strategy for the hospital staff but not for a patient that has it.
For non-emergency patients who test positive for MRSA, the current public health recommendation is to see if any antibiotics (e.g. vancomycin) will work for the patient before they are admitted to a hospital, and treat them until they test negative. Not all hospitals are doing this, only the ones with known MRSA problems or severely at-risk populations, such as hospitals with burn wards. No sense in taking in a patient for elective surgery, only to put the whole hospital at risk of infection. Insisting that elective surgery patients be up-to-date on vaccinations before arriving at the hospital is no different or more of a burden than insisting they have their bloodwork done before arriving--it's already routine.

Aaaaannnnywaaaayyyy. I guess I will email the local state ag university folks and see what they are up to with honeybees. Last I checked, they were more interested in crop genetics though. Gosh, I was hoping someone here would have ideas about bee infections, oh well.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: hardwood on January 12, 2011, 08:48:49 pm
I think you're on a good track Rosalind. We all have curiosities but you have the education and can imagine an outcome...keep it up!

Scott
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 13, 2011, 10:56:59 am
I think you're on a good track Rosalind. We all have curiosities but you have the education and can imagine an outcome...keep it up!

Scott

I second that.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Countryboy on January 25, 2011, 11:56:46 pm
IIRC, AFB exposed to chlorine for 20 minutes kills AFB spores.  The problem is getting penetration.  Surface disinfection is all you get.  Ozone fumigation does not appear to be of much help for AFB because it does not penetrate, but does show benefits to other diseases like chalk, and it also reduces levels of chemicals in comb.

IIRC, foulbrood was considered to be a minor nuisance prior to the 1900's.  Of course, combs were not reused as much back then.  There were still a lot of natural comb hives.

Dadant had an apiary at their wax rendering facility years ago.  The bees were constantly exposed to AFB, and became resistant to AFB.  When the bees were moved, they no longer had the AFB exposure, and lost their AFB resistance.  No one likes to talk much about Dadant's AFB resistant apiary though.  People would rather forget about it and advocate chemicals.

A former state apiary inspector told me once that by burning you can keep AFB levels to <0.5% of hives.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 09:36:21 am
Quote
When the bees were moved, they no longer had the AFB exposure, and lost their AFB resistance.


This is interesting.  I wonder if it is the exposure difference or the breeding with non resistant bees that caused the loss in resistance to AFB after the move. :?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 09:39:33 am
Quote
IIRC, AFB exposed to chlorine for 20 minutes kills AFB spores.


Are we talking chlorine gas or liquid solutions?  And at what concentrations?
BTW what does "IIRC" stand for?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Rosalind on January 26, 2011, 05:13:58 pm
Quote
IIRC, AFB exposed to chlorine for 20 minutes kills AFB spores.


Are we talking chlorine gas or liquid solutions?  And at what concentrations?
BTW what does "IIRC" stand for?

Gas disinfection typically isn't gas per se, it's actually a vapor of hypochlorite, peroxide, or gas plasma. Ozone sometimes used in water treatment plants, but it has a materials compatibility issue with most stuff, so it's not used much. In some old hospitals they use ethylene oxide, but that is getting phased out as too hazardous. Although chlorine gas will work, I am not a huge fan of it, mostly because my eyeballs never did anything that bad to me. And yes, penetration is not simple--it's very difficult to get the concentration of gas all the way into long twisty crevices. Modern gas sterilization is done in a vacuum chamber to ensure the gas is drawn all the way down into those cracks. I've got a ton of junk out in the barn, but a vacuum chamber...not so much.  :-\
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 07:15:23 pm
Anything used to kill microbs will be extremely dangerous to humans.  That includes extreme heat or cold.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Countryboy on January 26, 2011, 11:34:34 pm
IIRC is If I Remember Correctly.

I was referring to using liquid chlorine bleach as a disinfectant.  Once again, liquids have limited penetrating effect...but the chlorine can kills the spores it comes in contact with.

9 parts water and 1 part chlorine bleach is a common solution for spraying equipment with.

Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: rdy-b on January 27, 2011, 01:19:47 am
             
>Research by Dr. Mark Goodwin found that a 0.2% solution of bleach (sodium
hypochlorite) was effective against AFB spores, but recommends that one use
a 0.5% solution just to be sure.  That solution works out to be about 1:9
bleach to water for regular U.S. bleach (5% NaOCl).  "Ultra" bleach is 6%
NaOCl, thus about 1/5th stronger.<


http://www.nba.org.nz/node/60 (http://www.nba.org.nz/node/60)      8-)  RDY-B
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 27, 2011, 09:21:53 am
Quote
IIRC is If I Remember Correctly.

Thanks for letting me know, I have never seen that one before.

Quote
>Research by Dr. Mark Goodwin found that a 0.2% solution of bleach (sodium
hypochlorite) was effective against AFB spores, but recommends that one use
a 0.5% solution just to be sure.  That solution works out to be about 1:9
bleach to water for regular U.S. bleach (5% NaOCl).  "Ultra" bleach is 6%
NaOCl, thus about 1/5th stronger.<

That was the clarification I was looking for, thanks rdy-b.  Keep in mind that liquid bleach looses its punch very rapidly.  If you spray your equipment with bleach do you rinse it to get off the precipitates left behind?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: T Beek on January 27, 2011, 10:15:39 am
I Don't want to spoil the party, rock the boat or open a can of worms (been done to death already), but it seems clear to me (just me) that household bleach (any bleach) and Natural Beekeeping don't belong together.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 27, 2011, 10:48:16 am
Quote
but it seems clear to me (just me) that household bleach (any bleach) and Natural Beekeeping don't belong together.

I agree and where does commercialization fit in to natural and organic beekeeping methods amongst all you non hobbyist?  You are worried about bleach?  There is probably as many harmful chemicals in sugar that remain with the hive.

We discussed ETO, phage, and other treatments in this forum.  Are they natural and organic?  No objection to discussing these?
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Countryboy on January 27, 2011, 10:14:33 pm
I Don't want to spoil the party, rock the boat or open a can of worms (been done to death already), but it seems clear to me (just me) that household bleach (any bleach) and Natural Beekeeping don't belong together.

In my state, it is illegal to keep bees in skeps and gums.  Conventional hives and natural beekeeping don't belong together either.

You are not applying the bleach to the bees.  You are applying it to the hives.  How is bleach any different from painting hives?  Other than the bleach being present for a short time, whereas paint sticks around longer.

If you spray your equipment with bleach do you rinse it to get off the precipitates left behind?

I don't.  The bees can clean it up if they don't like it.  Bleach is commonly added to sugar water to keep it from fermenting.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: T Beek on January 28, 2011, 10:16:46 am
So what State is that you're from?

Not sure about how "common" it is that bleach is used in or around hives.  I don't and I don't know anyone else who does.  Lots of folks are now advocating NOT painting hives.

thomas
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 11:11:04 am
Quote
Bleach is commonly added to sugar water to keep it from fermenting.

Doesn't suprise me.   It is added to the food we eat so why not the bees.  I don't think most hobbyists do it though.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Countryboy on January 28, 2011, 10:54:10 pm
I'm in Ohio, which requires that all hives have removable frames.  Natural beehives do not have removable frames.

I don't think most hobbyists do it though.

Quite a few hobbyists buy a new package every spring because their hive died out over the winter.  If more hobbyists were taught how to keep bees alive, you might find more hobbyists doing things like spraying deadout combs with bleach to knock down background levels of diseases.
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: Acebird on January 29, 2011, 09:38:22 am
Quote
Natural beehives do not have removable frames.

So who do the authorities write the summons to?  :? :-D
Title: Re: Natural beekeeping/AFB question
Post by: T Beek on January 29, 2011, 10:17:22 am
 :lau: :lau: