UP or DOWN

[scoobee]

I am a loyal reader and fan of everyone in the Beemaster forum. I am always reading thru the posts. I don't know if this question has been presented directly or indirectly, but it will now.
               My bee supplier and I have gotten into a bit of a debate. I believe I have read some people post that bees normal tendency is to build down. My bee supplier has told me that she has never heard of that, that bees like to build up.
            So, what is your take on this? Do bees like to build down or up?
Also, since I'm here I might as well ask one more question.
               The same supplier that has sold me my bees, she told me that they were Italian bees, I'm starting to wonder. You see, approx. 2 weeks ago I did a hive inspection. I am now interested in doing another one, but, I seem to not be able to find my hive tool. I have looked all over and am now suspecting that my bees have stolen it. Either as a sick prank or a evil attempt to keep me from opening up the hive again and disturbing their privacy. Has anyone ever experienced what I believe I might have, kleptomaniac bees?  If so, what was your actions that you took or if not, what do you propose I do. Threat of Raid doesn't work. I show them the raid they raise their butts. Also, what strengthens my suspicion is, when I look around the hive thinking it might be on the ground, I glance at the bees and as soon as I do they turn away and start washboarding then when I look away I feel like thousands of eyes are upon me. Thanx Bob

[Kathyp]

my bees are constantly hiding my stuff  :-D  it's either the bees or the equipment supplier.....

1st, if you expand your brood space and add your box on top, it's not the end of the world.  most times the bees will adapt and use the space given to them. 

bees move both up and down. it depends on the time of the year.  when they start a hive, they move from the top toward the bottom.  as they build, they store honey across the top and down the sides and raise brood through the middle.  they expand the hive downward. 
in winter they move up as they use stores, always keeping close to the stores, and ending up at or near the top of the hive. 

if you put your new brood box on top, you make the bees do something they would not naturally do.  that is: move up and start building their hive configuration all over again. in addition, if they have stored honey over the frames and you put your new box on top, the queen may be reluctant to cross over it to the top box.  this can be overcome by moving some frames from the bottom box into the top.

it's not always practical to pick up a heavy box and add the new one under.  you won't kill them off by putting the new one on top.  i think you get better results if you can add under, and you have less trouble with them not moving into the new box.

[iddee]

I have opened many trees with bees in them. I have never seen the comb built from the bottom up. Many houses the same. The comb was always suspended from the top down. Ask your supplier to show you a natural hive with the comb built from the floor up. I don't think she can. Bees start at the top and build down.

PS. I buy hive tools by the dozen.

[scoobee]

Kathyp thank you for your reply. Makes me feel better. What I have done was, I put a empty deep with frames on the bottom and put the main deep with brood and queen on top with a medium that has 10 pulled frames of uncapped honey on top of that. Sound good? Bob

[scoobee]

Thanx Iddee, I had the same thoughts. I might be a new beek but old enough to have some common sense. Most creature work smarter not harder. Bob

[FRAMEshift]

Most of the human managed hives in the world are horizontal so I guess the bees can do that too.  They still expand and contract but they do it from the brood core near the entrance out to the side.

Here is MB's take on the question.  http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#onlyup

[Kathyp]

but they do it from the brood core near the entrance

sometimes, but we all have opened a wall or something where the entrance is at the bottom or top or somewhere not near the brood.  if you have a stack of two or three deeps and a bottom entrance, the brood is not near the entrance.  maybe i'm not understanding what you are saying.   :-D

[FRAMEshift]

Well, I have read that in horizontal hives the brood nest usually ends up near the entrance.  I can't say this from my own experience since we don't really give the bees a choice.  We start them in a nuc size space next to the entrance set off with followers and only expand the space after the brood nest is established.

Again, from MB's website:
...the real concern seems to be that there is a belief that bees won't move horizontally. Obviously this is not true. I've seen hives in hollow horizontal branches, I've seen them in floors, and I've overwintered them in Horizontal hives, both TBHs and Langstroth frame hives. Bees do tend to only move in one direction when clustered and have trouble changing direction in a cluster in the cold. But they don't seem to care if that direction is horizontal or vertical.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

[Kathyp]

you are talking about something like a top bar hive?  you could be absolutely correct.  i have never done one.

[FRAMEshift]

you are talking about something like a top bar hive?  you could be absolutely correct.  i have never done one.

Yes, a TBH or long hive.  Just saying that up and down are not the only choices.  :-D

[scoobee]

Okay, I think I'm with you Frame, but, in my case I'm am only using the Langstroth hive. I'm not that advanced yet. Bob

[WVaBees]

So ideally a Langstroth should be setup with brood boxes on the top with supers on the bottom?

[scoobee]

I don't think so, Bees when clustering in winter move up in the hive, they want their food stores near them when they arte clustering. Bob

[Kathyp]

So ideally a Langstroth should be setup with brood boxes on the top with supers on the bottom?

no!  the bees store honey above and around the brood.  the honey supers go on top.  the bees don't know you are going to take part of their stores.  they store above in preparation for winter. 

[JP]

The question that started this thread was up or down but now we are talking horizontal expansion as well.

Anyone who has performed many bee removals from different structures can tell you 1) In a vertical void space they naturally build downwards. 2) in a horizontal void they also start building from the underside of whatever they are attaching the comb sections to (i.e. underside of a plywood floor) begin building comb from the top going down to the bottom of the void space moving on to the next comb section building from the top down and so on and so on.

As for how the brood nest is configured, I have seen different variations but in a horizontal space such as a floor, the brood nest usually is near the entrance, but like I said I have seen variations. I removed one in particular two yrs ago where the first 2 and 1/2' in was nothing but capped honey comb that was running north and south, then I hit the brood nest which was running east and west.

In a langstroth set up we set the hives up more or less to suit our needs not necessarily what the bees would choose to do if they had a choice. They will move up because they have no choice but if you introduce (say a swarm) to a set up say that has three boxes in place, they naturally would want to begin up top and build downwards.

Of course there are always variables such as heat retention, moisture issues, etc... that could force them to choose whatever works best for them and I am inclined to believe that there are exceptions to their rules and what we might believe to be fact carved in stone.

You just never really know with bees sometimes, they are living, evolving, adaptable little creatures capable of showing us something we have never seen before.

This is what makes them so interesting.


...JP

[FRAMEshift]

So JP, it sounds like you have done this experiment.  If you allow them to start where they want in a three box setup, they will start at the top and build down.  But where will the brood nest end up after they have reached the bottom.  Does the long term position of the brood nest oscillate seasonally from the top down, the bottom up (as with most human managed hives) or something else?  I recall that Dean Stiglitz has 6 deeps and the bees move from the bottom well up into the upper five during winter.  Is this just because of how he manages the hive or is this their natural long-term architecture?

[JP]

In feral colonies they move as food stores are depleted, same with man made set ups.

With feral colonies organization of the brood nest is dependent on size of the void space and honey flow, and the bees, meaning their own preferences, which could be environmental or something else.


...JP