I cut a swarm cell. Tell me you'd have cut it out, too.

[TwoHoneys]

I found a number of swarm cells in my 3-year survivor hive yesterday (it's swarmed at least once each year since I captured it as a swarm 3 years ago).

I've made a lot of mistakes upon discovering swarm cells in the past, so this time I sat down on a stump and reminded myself that swarm cells aren't a sign that I'm a rotten beekeeper...swarm cells are often simply the sign of a vigorous and reproductive hive. And then I decided on the following course of action:

Set up a new hive next to the hive that's preparing to swarm.
Examine each frame in the original hive until I find the old queen and put her in the new hive box.
Leave all the swarm cells in the original hive.
Add to the new box several frames of larva, brood, and all the bees on those frames.
Add to the new box a frame with lots of nectar or honey
Close up the new hive.
Move both hives equidistant from and with their entrances facing the location of the original hive (so returning foragers have to choose one hive or the other when confronted with an empty space at their old hive location).
Leave.

I did make one decision that I question (though I think I'd do it again in the same situation): I didn't have a queen catcher with me, so  when I spotted the old queen, I simply removed the entire frame on which I found her and placed it in the new hive. HOWEVER, there was also one small swarm cell on that frame, so I cut it out with my hive tool. Bad? I didn't want to move a swarm cell into the new hive with the old queen.

-Liz

[iddee]

You dud a fine job.. Congrats.

[BjornBee]

 X:X

[FRAMEshift]

so this time I sat down on a stump and reminded myself....

This is my favorite part of your story.  A little stump sitting and consideration would stop many mistakes.   :-D

Sounds to me like you made the right decision overall.  I'm not sure about removing that last queen cell.  I guess I would ask, why?... and I guess that's really why you started this thread... because you aren't sure about that one.   First, you didn't say how many queen cells there were to start with.  If there were 15-20,  that would be swarm cells.  If there were 5-6,  they could be supercedure cells and that means that maybe that last queen cell could have been important.

You were right to move the queen in a simulated swarm.  But whenever I do a split I put a number of queen cells in both hives.

If they were swarm cells, removing the last one in the hive with the original queen would make no difference.  It couldn't hurt to have left it.  But I will enjoy hearing more discussion on this point.

[windfall]

Frameshift,
If they were swarm cells and you moved one with the queen, don't you run the risk of losing the queen when/if the virgin hatches out. I thought the new virgin was likely to kill the old queen?

Two Honeys,
 From everything I have been reading (voraciously) you did just right.

It seems the opinion is split on weather to leave all the queen cells in the original hive, or reduce them to 1-3 in an attempt to reduce afterswarming. On the advice of a respected keeper here in VT I pulled the queen and left only 2 cells in my last swarmy hive...It still issued 2 swarms and made some more cells for itself.
Yesterday I did more or less what you did on another one...except I pulled 2 nucs (1 with queen, one with 2 capped cells) off it first then left all the remaining cells.

Please post your outcome in the next few weeks. Riding in the same boat, I at least will be very interested!

[skatesailor]

Liz, Sounds like you did a good job. I probably would have done the same.

[annette]

If they want to replace that old queen, they will just make another queen cell. Nothing to worry about. Not sure what I would have done, lots of things I do, I do on vibe at the moment. This one is neither here or there.

[schawee]

great job liz.  :piano:

[TwoHoneys]

Thanks, friends, for the sweet positive feedback! I sort of like Annette's reassurance that much of what she does is done "on vibe at the moment." I probably need a little more than a moment...I still need to sort of think for a little while.

Also, I never even considered afterswarms...there were only 3 queen cells remaining in the original hive, but I guess a few may leave after all. Oh well.

-Liz

[sc-bee]

I'd have done it too ;)  And Annette makes a good point as long as the queen is there and she is laying they can replace her if they want.

[Michael Bush]

I would have been too lazy to find the queen and would have left all the cells and some in each... but they should do fine.  I probably wouldn't have removed the cell.  Cells don't cause them to swarm.  Other factors do.  In my experience, lack of cells don't stop them from swarming either.

[FRAMEshift]

Frameshift,
If they were swarm cells and you moved one with the queen, don't you run the risk of losing the queen when/if the virgin hatches out. I thought the new virgin was likely to kill the old queen?

I know that virgins will kill each other in the case of supersedure.  I'm not sure that a virgin will kill the old queen.  Sometimes the hive will have 2 queens for awhile, maybe while the bees figure out if the new queen is doing well.  Then the old queen will disappear.  I don't know who kills her.

 If it's a swarm cell and the old queen has not left, I think the bees may keep the virgin locked in the queen cell.  If she gets out, I think her instinct is to swarm, not to kill the old queen.

[sc-bee]

I would have been too lazy to find the queen and would have left all the cells and some in each... but they should do fine.  I probably wouldn't have removed the cell.  Cells don't cause them to swarm.  Other factors do.  In my experience, lack of cells don't stop them from swarming either.

If you have a prolific queen and you find swarm cells ---- you would not locate her and place her in a split without cells? Adding a queen with cells does not increase the chance of her replacement?

Please explain why you would not have removed the cell.

[Scadsobees]

I think you did right by that.  When cutting queencells is condemned, it is in the context of cutting all cells in a hive to keep it from swarming, not to keep it from killing the parent queen in a split.

But keep an eye on the parent hive, it can and will still swarm.  I tried to avoid a swarm this year, doing 2 splits out of the hive, and they still swarmed. :-x

[Michael Bush]

>f you have a prolific queen and you find swarm cells ---- you would not locate her and place her in a split without cells?

I wouldn't.  There is nothing wrong with finding her, but I've learned not to waste my time looking for queens.

> Adding a queen with cells does not increase the chance of her replacement?

I don't care if they do or don't replace her.

>Please explain why you would not have removed the cell.

Because I have nothing to gain removing it and better insurance they won't end up queenless if I leave it.  But it probably won't matter one bit under your circumstances.

[TwoHoneys]

So, today I split a top-bar hive that contained queen cells on about 6 bars. This time I did as I understand Michael Bush does...I took the pressure off of myself and simply divvied all the resources between the original hive and the split. I didn't look for the queen...one of the two got her.   ;)

-Liz