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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: thomashton on January 24, 2006, 06:35:09 pm

Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: thomashton on January 24, 2006, 06:35:09 pm
Hi everyone. Don't post that often, but am here nearly daily to see what everyone else has to say.

Was wondering what you thought of this. I am putting together my first hives for my first season of beekeeping. I am planning on using small cell foundation, but when I checked on prices with a seller (I think it was BeeSource), their website stated that sc shouldn't be used by beginners.

Now I thought I would try to start things out "right" by giving small cell or even just starter strips. Should I be considering using regular foundation at first instead of beginning with sc? :?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: amymcg on January 24, 2006, 06:43:59 pm
The reason they say that it's not for beginners is because they don't want to put the instructions up there for regressing the bees.  If you want to do small cell foundation, then get yourself a package of small cell bees to go with it.

If you can't get small cell bees, you will have to get large cell bees and buy the 5.1 foundation, then the 4.9 foundation.  You can't just stick large cell bees on small cell foundation, they won't draw it properly.  I would suggest you join the yahoo group "organicbeekeepers" many discussions about it there.  Michael Bush can help you out too.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 24, 2006, 07:33:08 pm
If you want natural Varroa contro, use the small cell.  Us it in the manner that you find it convenient for you.  Starter strips.  Full sheets.  It depends on your philosphy.  But don't count on total control of the Varroa until you're seeing 4.9mm or below in the center of the brood nest.  You will probably have to feed some more frames into the center over the next couple of years before you get there.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on January 25, 2006, 02:13:12 am
I think that it is very stupid to offer to beginner "natural varroa control" in black box. It is really irresponsible.

Even all professionals manage with varroa. Beginner have job enough to learn beekeeping. In every country bees have vanished 90% from nature when varroa come arrived. How beginner could do better?

Just now in New Zeland varroa destroyed in 3 years feral bee colonies, and bees really had natural beecombs.

"It depends on your philosphy." - Yes I have seen that many beginners have philosophy but not faintest idea how to nurse bees. I have noticed stupid things to happen.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 25, 2006, 07:53:10 am
>I think that it is very stupid to offer to beginner "natural varroa control" in black box. It is really irresponsible.

Which is why I say not to count on it until you reach the 4.9mm threshold.

>Just now in New Zeland varroa destroyed in 3 years feral bee colonies, and bees really had natural beecombs.

I'd say that more than half ofthe "feral" bees have unatural beecombs.  They have escpaed from hives with 5.4mm comb and they are too big to draw natural comb.

>"It depends on your philosphy." - Yes I have seen that many beginners have philosophy but not faintest idea how to nurse bees. I have noticed stupid things to happen.

The first thing anyone who is going to keep bees needs to leran to do is monitor Varroa levels.  If you don't, you'll never know if what you're doing is working or not.  This is the most complicated part.

Using small cell or natural sized cell is not complicated at all.  The bees will take care of it if you don't interfere by using large cell foundation.

If your mite levels get high, then you should deal with them.

The typical advice here is to use Apistan in the spring and fall and odds are it will fail.  The mites here, in Nebraska, have built up resistance.  The next advice, here, is usually to use Checkmite which will make the queens sterile and the drones sterile, if you're lucky.  From my observation of friends who have used it, it will kill all your bees if you're not lucky.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 25, 2006, 07:54:45 am
Actually, what *I* think is REALLY iresponsible is for beekeepers to keep using large cell foundation and breeding millions of Varroa mites every year.

I wish you would all cut it out.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on January 25, 2006, 09:04:08 am
Quote from: Michael Bush
and breeding millions of Varroa mites every year.
.


I have written: Varroa is not problem in Finland any more. It is one of the easiest thing in beekeeping. Not worth to set upp your beekeeping according to varroa.
Title: Finsky seems to be
Post by: Jack Parr on January 25, 2006, 09:28:43 am
:evil:

Actually the folks at the LSU Louisiana Bee Lab  did not really want to engage in a conversation about small cell beekeeping, after I mentioned the subject at last year's Louisiana beekeeper's meeting.

They are aware of Dee Lusby but would not say much about her and her small cell ideas either.

I don't see these folks often but I will encounter them in the future, I'm sure, and I will pump them further on the small cell subject.

The Louisiana Bee Lab does, I think, have a good reputation for their bee research efforts. However I also think that since scientific reasearch on anything can go on for a long time and scientist must stick with their efforts in the direction they have chosen. Appearently, in the small cell case,  that is not where they want to go.  Also this is MY speculation on the small cell subject and what the bee lab does.  

In the future I will probably develop a more familiar relationship with the Bee Lab guys and hopefully gather more insight.

Further since comb can, and, does last for years, the build up of pupae residue/shells  accumulates in the cells and thus causes them to become smaller? creating small cells? That is one answer I got from a long time bee guy...
 :wink:
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Apis629 on January 25, 2006, 03:36:32 pm
I guess I've lucked out...my bees still don't have Varroa! :D
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 25, 2006, 08:29:13 pm
>Further since comb can, and, does last for years, the build up of pupae residue/shells accumulates in the cells and thus causes them to become smaller? creating small cells?

They build up to some point at which the bees chew them out.  The more they accumulate the more places for things likeAFB spores to hide.  Maybe that's one of the causes of AFB problems?  Built up cocoons that the bees ould have chewed out if they had natural comb?

>I guess I've lucked out...my bees still don't have Varroa!

If you haven't seen Varroa, then you aren't looking hard enough.  :)
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Apis629 on January 25, 2006, 11:53:49 pm
I'm serious, I've monitored mite drops, done sugar roles and when my colony was inspected by the state, the inspector did an alchohole roll and couldn't find a single Varroa mite.  I've even culled drone brood with an uncapping fork and still nothing...that isn't to say that I'll never get them, of cource.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 26, 2006, 07:40:20 am
>I'm serious, I've monitored mite drops, done sugar roles and when my colony was inspected by the state, the inspector did an alchohole roll and couldn't find a single Varroa mite. I've even culled drone brood with an uncapping fork and still nothing...that isn't to say that I'll never get them, of cource.

Are you isolated?  What kind of bees do you have?  What size foundation are they on?

The inspector hasn't found any on mine either.  But I see one now and then.
Title: Foundationless Frames & Small Cell
Post by: bassman1977 on January 26, 2006, 04:44:15 pm
I want to use start strips (cut from small cell foundation) until I can get the bees regressed to 4.9mm.  I saw in a post in Bee-commerce, that a wedge shoud be cut on the top bar when doing foundationless frames.  Is this something that has to be done?  What are the advantages of doing this?  I was just planning on putting the strips in the wedge frames.  If it is very important to do the wedge thing, how exactly is that done?  Any pictures to use as an example?

Quote
But don't count on total control of the Varroa until you're seeing 4.9mm or below in the center of the brood nest. You will probably have to feed some more frames into the center over the next couple of years before you get there.


Michael, what are you talking about here?  I was under the impression getting to 4.9mm would be something that could be done in a season, season and a half tops.  On average, what is the time it takes to get a large cell hive regressed to 4.9mm?

I want to make sure I have all my fact straight before doing small cell.  Just when I think I'm ready to begin, something else pops up.   :?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 27, 2006, 08:13:46 am
It's all good.  If you let them build what they want the first time around it will be around 5.1mm.  That's enough to slow down the mites some and shorten the pre and post capping some.  If you never do anything else you'll be ahead of the game.  but to really control the Varroa mites requires something more like 4.9mm to 5.0mm.  This is usually about what the bees that were raised on the 5.1mm will build.

I don't know how everyone else prevents swarming, but I feed empty frames into the brood nest to keep it from getting congested.  There's nothing like keeping them busy drawing some comb in the brood nest to change their direction.  Since I do this anyway, I don't see any more work involved.  IMO if you don't, they will swarm no matter how many supers you throw on.

I keep a metric ruler handy and measure some comb now and then and try to end up with the smallest in the core of the brood nest.  That's all.

If you just keep monitoring the Varroa mites, you'll know when you've stablized things.  You'll only find  one or two mites on the tray of your SBB after a week or so once things are stable.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: bassman1977 on January 27, 2006, 06:30:44 pm
Got ya.  Thanks for clearing that up.  Anyone on the wedge part of the question please?

Quote
I want to use start strips (cut from small cell foundation) until I can get the bees regressed to 4.9mm. I saw in a post in Bee-commerce, that a wedge shoud be cut on the top bar when doing foundationless frames. Is this something that has to be done? What are the advantages of doing this? I was just planning on putting the strips in the wedge frames. If it is very important to do the wedge thing, how exactly is that done? Any pictures to use as an example?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 27, 2006, 09:02:26 pm
>I saw in a post in Bee-commerce, that a wedge shoud be cut on the top bar when doing foundationless frames. Is this something that has to be done?

If you want to use no foundation at all, you still need something to guide the bees.  This can be as simple as putting an empty frame between two drawn combs and let the combs act as a guide or a starter strip or a full sheet of foundation.  Two other kinds of guides are to put a wooden strip in the groove (like a wooden starter strip) or cut a bevel (or add a bevel) on the top bar.  I've done all of them except the wooden strip, but those who have done it assure me it works fine.  I like the bevel the best because I don't have to buy any foundation.  I never have to put in any foundation and I never have to have any foundation (or starter strips) sag or fall out.

>What are the advantages of doing this?

Nothing to put in.  Nothing to fall out.

> I was just planning on putting the strips in the wedge frames.

That will work fine.

> If it is very important to do the wedge thing, how exactly is that done?

You can just cut the top bar before you assemble it, or you can cut the corner off of a one by board at a 45 degree angle.

>Any pictures to use as an example?

My web site has pictures of mine and Langstroth's originals.  www.bushfarms.com

And Charles Martin Simon has his with the bottom bar also beveled.  Look at the "SuperUnfoundation" links:

http://charlesmartinsimon.com/stinging-insects.htm
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on January 31, 2006, 08:32:11 pm
So I ordered a 3lbs package of italian bees from www.gabees.com back in the fall, I am trying to figure out what foundation to use, would I have to order specific bees to use small cell foundation? It sounds like the small cell are the way to go. If so then is there a benifit to using the larger cell? Just curious why everyone would not be using small cell if it will make the hive healthier.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on January 31, 2006, 10:13:44 pm
>So I ordered a 3lbs package of italian bees from www.gabees.com back in the fall, I am trying to figure out what foundation to use

Your choice.  But I'd use small cell or none. :)

>, would I have to order specific bees to use small cell foundation?

No.

> It sounds like the small cell are the way to go. If so then is there a benifit to using the larger cell?

None.

> Just curious why everyone would not be using small cell if it will make the hive healthier.

Because no one wants to listen or try for themselves, or better yet, let the bees do it for them.  The bees will build the smaller cells if you let them by using no foundation.

Dadant was only selling the small cell unwired and only in deeps.  Now, if you call, you can get it in medium and you can get it already wired.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Apis629 on January 31, 2006, 10:27:01 pm
Does anyone sell Small-Cell plastic foundation?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on January 31, 2006, 11:07:25 pm
Michael when you say no foundation, I am assuming that you mean putting the frame in with nothing on them? If so what keeps them from binding all of the frames together? Also if you do it that way can you harvest honey w/comb? That might be a stupid question but if you don't know then the only stupid question is the one that doesn't get asked!
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on January 31, 2006, 11:14:08 pm
Dadant small celll foundation says basically what is below, so if I order this foundation for my hive bodies and supers I'll be ok cause if so thats what I'm going to do!


Suggested for use by experienced beekeepers only. Varroa Mite have a hard time reproducing on worker brood raised in small cell comb. Those beekeepers who on their own have tried this technique report good results, with varroa screens and drone foundation. Switching a colony of honey bees to small cell comb can be hard if not done at the correct time of the year. Honey bees first start major brood rearing in the Spring or right after swarming the beekeeper should introduce 10 frames of small cell foundation per brood chamber. So, if you are an experienced beekeeper who likes to experiment and want to move ahead of the chemical control crowd with your honey bee management, this may be for you.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: TwT on February 01, 2006, 04:15:17 am
Quote from: Apis629
Does anyone sell Small-Cell plastic foundation?



I haven't seen or heard about any SC plastic foundation, I did email pierco and ask them if they were going to make SC foundation, and they said , AS OF RIGHT NOW, IT IS NOT IN OUR PLANS, WE ARE CURRENTLY PUSHING THE SALE OF DRONE FOUNDATION FOR V-MITE CONTROL.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 01, 2006, 07:32:37 am
>Does anyone sell Small-Cell plastic foundation?

Dadant did.  I tried it.  Unregressed bees really messed it up.  Regressed bees treated it like any plastic.  Meaning usuallyt hey built on it.  Sometimes they messed it up.

>Michael when you say no foundation, I am assuming that you mean putting the frame in with nothing on them? If so what keeps them from binding all of the frames together?

You always have to have some kind of guide.  That can be starter strips,  a wooden "starter strip" a bevel on the top bar, some left over imprint of the last comb in that frame, or just an empty frame between two drawn combs.  Otherwise they will make a mess.  Check out my website for some pictures of combs on starter strips and comb guides.

> Also if you do it that way can you harvest honey w/comb?

I put comb guides on many and have used starter strips on many.   I also put empty frames between drawn combs often.  If they are not brand new wax (which is soft like putty) and they are attached a little bit on all four sides I extract them.  Otherwise I cut them for cut comb honey.  I can, and do, do both comb honey and extracted.  If I didn't want comb honey, I'd just leave them in the hive longer until they are attached on all four sides or crush and strain.

>Dadant small celll foundation says basically what is below, so if I order this foundation for my hive bodies and supers I'll be ok cause if so thats what I'm going to do!

Some of this, too, depends on your intended practices.  Do you intend to use an excluder (I wouldn't).  Do you intend to use an extractor?  If you only have a couple of hives I wouldn't.  If you're not using an extractor and not using a queen excluder and if you have different sized frames in the supers than the brood nest (I have all mediums) then I'd buy 7/11 thin surplus for the supers.  The queen won't like to lay in the 7/11, it won't have wires so you can make cut comb or crush and strain, and you won't have to spend extra for small cell foundation for the supers.  If you want to extract, I've also used the 7/11 (yes, unwired) and extracted often.

On the other hand if I ran all the same sized frames (I run all mediums) then I'd use all small cell so everything is interchangable.  But if your frames already aren't then it won't be much of a gain.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: TwT on February 01, 2006, 08:29:04 pm
MB, I have not seen plastic SC on dadant web page, is it not sold anymore? I have not gone to small cell because I have a hard time believing any hive of bee's will survive on SC but im going to try it for myself with two hives this year, I still believe there are resistance bee's that will make the difference, I have a few hive now and getting more this spring from splits and removal plus getting 4 nuc's and raising my own queens for my slpits, going to be a good year I hope.  Im going to try SC with 2 hives this year, all my bee's are on pierco foundation so maybe it want to hard for them to get regressed, I'm going to find out for myself to see what it does, I cant say it doesn't work because I have never tried it, there are a few people that believe in it like MB and there are some that controll the mites and dont believe in SC like Finsky, but I'll try it with 2 italian hives (HIVE'S THAT AREN'T SUPPOSE TO BE RESISTANT) and see how they do. these are Kona italians hives Im going to try this on, I will do all I can to keep these hives going until they are regressed, then I will stop all treatment of any kind, I'll do mite drop counts and fill out a study for myself. when its all said and done I'll post it here. I have read from 2 places that SC and standard size bee's at times of the year are the same size, but when they are born they are not and that is easy to understand because of cell size and MB says the smaller bee with hatch out earlier and a earlier hatching would throw off a mite's brood cycle. that is the reason im going to try 2 hives, just to see for myself.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 01, 2006, 10:18:36 pm
>MB, I have not seen plastic SC on dadant web page, is it not sold anymore?

I don't think they are stocking it anymore.  It's from a Korean company who just wanted too much and Dadant must not have sold enough of it.  I have some around here somewhere.

> I have not gone to small cell because I have a hard time believing any hive of bee's will survive on SC but im going to try it for myself with two hives this year

Why wouldn't they?  Let them build their own comb and it WILL be small cell.  Time them capping and emerging and you'll get a 19 day cycle instead of a 21 day cycle.  That's a lot less Varroa reproducing.

> I still believe there are resistance bee's that will make the difference, I have a few hive now and getting more this spring from splits and removal plus getting 4 nuc's and raising my own queens for my slpits, going to be a good year I hope. Im going to try SC with 2 hives this year, all my bee's are on pierco foundation so maybe it want to hard for them to get regressed

You've already got the first regression on Pierco.

> I'm going to find out for myself to see what it does, I cant say it doesn't work because I have never tried it, there are a few people that believe in it like MB and there are some that controll the mites and dont believe in SC like Finsky

Yes, but unlike Finsky, I've actually TRIED small cell.  :)

> but I'll try it with 2 italian hives (HIVE'S THAT AREN'T SUPPOSE TO BE RESISTANT) and see how they do. these are Kona italians hives Im going to try this on, I will do all I can to keep these hives going until they are regressed, then I will stop all treatment of any kind, I'll do mite drop counts and fill out a study for myself.

Dee, who pioneered this, would say that survivor bees are equally important.  But I saw a huge difference with any kind of bees.  Still I've gone to all feral survivors.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 12:38:47 am
Quote from: Michael Bush
Yes, but unlike Finsky, I've actually TRIED small cell.  :) .


BUT, the small cells are not mainpoint in beekeeping.

Mainpoint in small cell  is VARROA, not small cell itself!  What ALTERNATIVES you have handle varroa, - many, ten or more?  I have  cured varroa 20 years and I have no troubles with it. A little bit work. Chalk brood is much more worse. My hives are big 6-7 boxes. I gather here on 60 north degree 150 lbs average yields. Last summer many of hives  gathered almost 400 lbs. How many there in south  show these figures.

My bees are at same level as Anchorage in Alaska. I destroyed my first varroa hive in the year 1982. Michael does not remember any more which is purpose of beekeeping.
.

I bought varroa resistant bee queens , I believed that. But when I trickled those 5 hives with oxalic acid hives had as much mites like italians.  I do not bother calculate mites. I just pour acids on mites neck.  I keep them down. It goes well. I need not obey all orders what people invite on the globe.  :P

And bees thank me with huge yields !

I am master in science in biology from Helsinki University. I have studied genetics with best grades. I understand biolocical basics and I love to use facts and give value to research.

.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: db on February 02, 2006, 04:17:56 am
Hello all,
@Finsky: you are wrong and you know this, but please let other beginners like me keep bee without chemicals, it makes me sick to hear you! allways the same ideas since 20 years! 20 wasted years of beekeeping. Now we have extremley aggressive varroa mite here, selected to withstand acids and drugs really good selected ones ! and what is with our bees?  they are getting weaker and weaker und you want to tell me that this is the right way ? no way man !
@Michael: most of the beekeeper beginners don want chemical, acids etc in the hives, but most of the older beekeepers are less able to accept new ideas...
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 06:38:42 am
Quote from: db
20 wasted years of beekeeping....


You are dam wrong. 43 years wasted beekeeping behind. But even some have those years ahead!  What is young beekeepr?  I was 15 y when I started.



Quote from: db
Hello all,
@Finsky: you are wrong and you know this, but please let other beginners like me keep bee without chemicals, it makes me sick to hear you! allways the same ideas since 20 years! ...


What do you know about 20 year's ideas.  I have  changed the cure many times. You can keep you bees just as you like, but don't deliver uncertain cures for them who do not understand.  As you see, no university, no administration or officials  recommend small cells.

And when you speak about chemicals, you is better know what it means in your daily life. I have met a lot of persons in this forum who say that sugar is poison or it is not good for bees.

LOOK here:
http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sunr.htm

"Much has been written about regression. That's the process of getting bees, which have been living on large cell size comb, established on small cell size comb. My small cell bees were healthier, overwintered better, built up faster in the spring and could tolerate mites, but regressing bees is an onerous process. When following the Lusby method, most of ones hives will succumb to the varroa mite before they become established on small cell comb. I lost over 90% of my hives this way and the few survivors were very weak."

I suppose that this guy is professional.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 06:47:22 am
New Siberian foundation standard 5,60 mm

You all know that Russian Siberia was the first areas where varroa spread. Just now Russians have accepted
new foundation stardard and it is 5,60 mm.  Usual size is 5,3 mm,  but this is bigger.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 02, 2006, 07:58:45 am
>BUT, the small cells are not mainpoint in beekeeping.

No.  Helping the bees do what they do is.  And small cells are what they do.

>Mainpoint in small cell is VARROA, not small cell itself! What ALTERNATIVES you have handle varroa, - many, ten or more?

All of which involve adding chemicals to the hive.  They don't get in the honey do they?  Or the wax?  Or shorten the lives of the queens?  Or affect the fertility ofthe drones?

> Last summer many of hives gathered almost 400 lbs. How many there in south show these figures.

I don't.  When managing for honey I've goteen 200 lbs per hive in a good year.

>My bees are at same level as Anchorage in Alaska. I destroyed my first varroa hive in the year 1982. Michael does not remember any more which is purpose of beekeeping.

And the purpose of beekeeping is?  My bees are mostly on natural combs that they build themselves that run from 4.4mm to 5.0mm with most around 4.8mm  They are healthy without my interference.  Should I prefer weak bees with lots of varroa that require chemicals to prop them up and keep them alive?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 02, 2006, 08:01:03 am
The main point of small cell is to let the bees build natural sized cells which makes them much healther all the way around.  Try a 19 day brood cycle and you'll see how much faster the bees can build up and how much slower the Varroa build up.  This is a win/win.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 09:13:54 am
Quote from: Michael Bush


bees build natural sized cells

They have allways. Feral bees die in varroa, in New Zeland in 3 years.

Quote
 much healther all the way around.  


Who lives he sees!

You have no research for that. Deaseased have born in nature.
If human have selected those bees which are not tolerant against deseases, it is not natural cell question.


Quote
Try a 19 day brood cycle and you'll see


You have africanized bees Michael or you have noticed egg stage.

Nature heals - I know that....No hospitals, no medicin, no doctors, no ambulances, only nature
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 09:47:37 am
Bee diaseases

Better learn basics.

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Diseases_of_Honey_Bees_PM.pdf
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 02, 2006, 11:56:03 am
Quote from: Finsky

Quote
 much healther all the way around.  


Who lives he sees!

You have no research for that. Deaseased have born in nature.
If human have selected those bees which are not tolerant against deseases, it is not natural cell question.



I can't pick up a hand full of dirt, drop it, and tell you the wind is blowing from the southwest because I am not a scientist. I would have to look up the national weather service data and post that up here before you would believe the wind was blowing from the southwest.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 12:14:23 pm
Quote from: Jerrymac
before you would believe the wind was blowing from the southwest.


 Everyone is  blessed in his truth.  - I hope.

We like this proverb: "Blessed are woodheads because they do not drown." :roll:
Our woodhead means blockhead in Engslish. I do not know what material your  block is.  :P
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 02, 2006, 12:27:36 pm
Quote from: Finsky
"Blessed are woodheads because they do not drown."


They can become waterlogged and sink.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 02, 2006, 12:50:04 pm
Quote from: Jerrymac
[

They can become waterlogged and sink.


Never heard that  :P
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on February 02, 2006, 07:49:39 pm
So as a newbie I am curious what if any is the advantage to beekeepers using the larger cells than what a wild bee would make? Is it to produce more honey? And when did the practice of going to larger cells start? From a neutral stand point at this time what M.B is saying makes sense to me about using what the bees would make if people did not interfere. I would just like to know why they made them larger to begin with?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 02, 2006, 09:08:30 pm
>>bees build natural sized cells
>They have allways.

No.  They have not.  Baudoux did many years of research on changing the size of bees by changing the size of the foundation.  Bees build the pattern you give them for the most part.

>Feral bees die in varroa, in New Zeland in 3 years.

I've never been to New Zeland but I hear the same reports here and yet I find more and more of them and others find more and more of them.

>You have no research for that. Deaseased have born in nature.
If human have selected those bees which are not tolerant against deseases, it is not natural cell question.

I have hives that have not been treated in five years.  For anything.  That's convincing enough for me.  Dee's haven't been treated in 18 years.

>>Try a 19 day brood cycle and you'll see
>You have africanized bees Michael or you have noticed egg stage.

I watched commercial Carniolans in an observation hive on several occasions lay eggs in 4.95mm cells and timed them.  It's the same result with the ferals or the Italians.  It's also the same report measured by Huber in the late 1700s.

The egg is laid on day one and how many days have elapsed?  Zero.  So on the 20th day how many days have elapsed?  19.

“The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering.  The worm now begins spinning its cocoon, in which operation thirty-six hours are consumed.  In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form.  It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly state.”
FRANCIS HUBER 4 September 1791.

Did Huber have AHB?

>So as a newbie I am curious what if any is the advantage to beekeepers using the larger cells than what a wild bee would make?

It was the goal of Baudoux to make a bigger bee who could, theoretically haul larger loads of nectar and have alonger tongue to make use of red clover.

Dimensions of cells According to Baudoux
Cell Width      Cell Volume
5.555 mm      301 mm3
5.375      277
5.210      256
5.060      237
4.925      222
4.805      206
4.700      192
From ABC XYZ of Bee Culture 1945 edition pg 126


http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/celldata.htm

> Is it to produce more honey?

That was Baudoux's theory.

> And when did the practice of going to larger cells start?

Baudaoux started in the late 1800's and continued his research up into the 20's at least.  I'm not sure how long.  The original foundation mills in this country were five cells to an inch (4.98 to 5.0mm).  AI Root back in the late 1800s went to 5.13mm (4.85 cells to the inch).  It continued to go up until now when Finsky says the Siberians have gone to 5.6mm.

> From a neutral stand point at this time what M.B is saying makes sense to me about using what the bees would make if people did not interfere. I would just like to know why they made them larger to begin with?

Because they thought bigger bees were better bees.

Here's some natural comb from unregressed commercial carniolans:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/47mmCombMeasurement.jpg

Here's some from a hive in Pennsylvania:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/44mmComb.jpg

Here's standard foundation:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Dadant54mmMeasured.JPG

I have measured a lot of natural drawn combs.  I have seen worker brood in the range of 4.6mm to 5.1mm with most in the 4.7 to 4.8 ranges.  I have not seen any large areas of 5.4mm cells.  These were all on Carniolan, Italian and Buckfast bees.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on February 02, 2006, 10:28:28 pm
That's enough info for me, I have 9 5/8 hive bodies and 6 5/8 supers and if I understood you correctly I can use the small cell in these boxes and that is what I am going to do, If all goes well next year I will add a few more hives and as I get more comfortable I would like then to try starter strips with no foundation. When I started this adventure I thought you might get a gallon of honey per year from one hive, and it blew me away when I found out people commonly get over 100lbs. My uneducated theory of MB and Finshy's posts is that we should try to come up with a Varroa resistant queen and then put her on small cell foundation :)
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 02, 2006, 11:05:30 pm
Quote from: Ruben
My uneducated theory of MB and Finshy's posts is that we should try to come up with a Varroa resistant queen and then put her on small cell foundation :)


Small cell bees are Varroa resistant
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on February 02, 2006, 11:28:37 pm
I guess I meant bees that are resistant even on large cell and then put them on small cell.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 03, 2006, 07:39:45 am
Let's try another way of looking at it, just for fun.

If you go with starter strips or, better yet, cut your top bars to have a bevel so you don't have to mess with starter strips, what does it cost you?  A little work to cut the comb guides, which is less work than putting on foundation.

It saves you the cost of the foundation.  Is there anyone out there who thinks that bees making comb is bad for them?  If they do, then why aren't they all using PermaComb to protect their bees from this awful stress?  If you let the bees build what they want, what does that cost you?  I know Finksy thinks it costs you honey, but he's never see how quickly they build their own comb compared to foundation.  But assuming it does cost some honey and assuming you're willing to give up a little honey, is there anyone who thinks that natural sized cells made by the bees are detrimental to the bees?

Now you put bees on this (if you want to do several packages you could do some side by side comparisons with some on plastic foundation etc., but keep in mind hives vary in buildup anyway so you'll need several to get a meaningful difference).

You monitor the mite drops on a tray under the Screened bottom board (again a side by side comparison with large cell would be nice).  If the natural cell hive never needs any treatment or needs less treatment, good.  Is there anyone who thinks it will have MORE mite problems?  I don't think so.

How hard is it to try natural sized cells?  If you want to do standard beekeeping practices then buy the small cell foundation.  Dadant now has it wired and in both medium and deep.  Obviously there must be a market since it used to only come in deep and unwired.  You may have to call them I haven't found it on their online catalog.

What are the risks of doing this?  I don't see any.  What is the cost of doing this?  If you go foundationless it will SAVE you money.  If you buy small cell foundation it's not THAT expensive.

Now, over the years you put an empty frame in the brood nest whenever you see them start to backfill it to get ready to swarm and you give them the chance to regress more if they want AND stop them from swarming AND expand the brood nest to get more honey.

That's really all there is to the whole process.  If you can find feral survivors, better.  If you want to buy some Hygienic or SMR or Russians, go for it.

Why do some people think this is such a bad idea?  Why does the concept make them angry?  What deeply held beliefs does it threaten?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on February 03, 2006, 11:03:57 pm
I don't mean to keep this stirring I am just trying to learn all of this. I was in a site that said the particular state had an estimated loss of 90% of feral hives( I assume that means wild hives ) due to vorroa mites. If bees naturally make the small cells and I am assuming they do that in the wild, why is varroa a problem in wild hives? Is there another factor? Why would small cell in the wild not keep things under control? Does this mean bees in the wild are nearly just about gone?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 04, 2006, 12:16:33 am
I am not sure what is meant by ferals in the wild. There are a lot of ferel bees around here but they don't live in the wild. Around here it is either a populated area or farming. I get my bees out of barns, pump houses, old houses, anything with walls that have an area where bees can get to. I have five or six lined up for removal hopefully starting this month.

Now to the question at hand. Did anyone really keep tabs on the wild bees before the threat of extinction fell upon them? Then how many colonies were wiped out from other reasons other than a mite? Like poisons, fires, rodents, wax moths, leaping lizards and cows that jump over the moon?

Get all that out of the way. Then you have the "domestic" bees that got away. As M. Bush points out, it takes a while to regress down. So those that were not fully regressed were easy targets. SO, those died off as well as all the domestics that stayed home on large cell. Then here come the ferels. they go into the hives to rob out the honey and get infested with all the mites that need a new home. They were over whelmed with the mites from the domestic colonies.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 04, 2006, 03:49:16 am
Quote from: Jerrymac

Get all that out of the way. Then you have the "domestic" bees that got away. As M. Bush points out, it takes a while to regress down. So those that were not fully regressed were easy targets. .


Lets see this way: Africanized bees have "regressed" 50 themselves years. They have still varroa more or less. Some so much that they should be dead.

You really can spoil American amateur beekeepers with your "endemic theories". Just ridiculous. Look luck with your mission.  DO IT!
.
.
Title: Spoiled beekeepers?
Post by: Jack Parr on February 04, 2006, 08:03:17 am
Finsky, not all Americans, or, any other beekeepers for that matter, will be spoiled by any particular beekeeping method.,

Beekeepers will learn and adjust to ALL ideas about beekeeping according to THEIR results. Some will learn how to keep bees and some will just give up after they see how much trouble they will have to go through just to keep a few hives.  

Personally I am not convinced that small cell is the answer to verroa control.  It may well be the answer, but so far, it is not practical for the majority of hobbist, and commercial beekeepers to start converting to small cell.  

Consider that proponents of the small cell theory number just a few people who post comments on these boards. There are numerous beekeepers, hoobyist and commercial, who do not ever read internet forums and have probably no idea about small cell? They just go with tried and true beekeeping methods that have evolved over the years and years of beekeeping practices. Consider the small cell ideas as an experiment that may prove to be valid and maybe not. Some will be convinced and some not.
Title: Re: Spoiled beekeepers?
Post by: Finsky on February 04, 2006, 08:57:19 am
Quote from: Jack Parr
Consider the small cell ideas as an experiment that may prove to be valid and maybe not.


Just 50 years with Africanized bees? How long you are going to wait?
How some can suppose that varroa is not able to adapt to small cell?

It is just fine that some hobbyist try to bee hand of evolutions.

It is like Russians. They tried communism 3 generation and then they tired on it. And some still believe it.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Ruben on February 04, 2006, 10:45:37 am
This question is for Finsky, I am trying to understand both sides of this and MB has given  the reasons he feels the way he does about small cell. My question- in your opinion other than producing less honey is there any reason not to go with small cell and are there any problems you know of that are a result of small cell?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 04, 2006, 11:17:38 am
Quote from: amymcg
The reason they say that it's not for beginners is because they don't want to put the instructions up there for regressing the bees.  If you want to do small cell foundation, then get yourself a package of small cell bees to go with it.

This is an example of the blind leading the blind. Ask Housel in florida, he bought "small bees" from the small cell guru and the florida authorities pointed out that they were african bees (the original small bees). They "depopulated" the hives. The whole small cell thing is a fantasy. there is no such thing as regression, since the european bees were never that small and the african bees have always been that size. 4,9 foundation is perfect for them, that's what the sell IN AFRICA

der bee meister
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 04, 2006, 12:42:38 pm
Quote from: Ruben
My question- in your opinion other than producing less honey is there any reason not to go with small cell and are there any problems you know of that are a result of small cell?



If you look the invasion of varroa, you will find that it has not killed all bees. There are hives which can manage with varroa.

Now among Carnolian bees they have found as good varroa fighters like Russian bee. And Carnolian bee has biggest natural cells, wider than in bad foundations.

PROBLEMS:

1) You need a bee stock which have natural tendency fight against varroa
- have you, where you got it?

2) The mite level is often so high that colony is alive but cannot gather surpus honey (chalbrood makes same).

3) Before beekeeper has found varroa resistant beestock mostly he has lost all his hives.

4) Small cell question have known 10 years in USA. Why it has not revealed mite problem, or foul brood, nosema, or what else.

5) Swarming is one succesful method with which feral bees get rid off their problems. Swarming is not suitable for profitable honey harvesting.

6) Michael and another natural beekeepers insist same argumenst and deny many fact which have known tens of years.

* They say that natural comb size. Small cell is not natural comb size.
* Bees do not need honey for comb building.
* Natural comb sizes has not saved bees from diseases or from varroa.
* Diseases have developed in natural beehives during million of years. They are not products of human.

* Natural beekeepers never talk  that varroa also go through succesfull evolution and takes it's place more and more in beehives.
..
You know those people who still believe that God made all nature during 6 days. There is no genes, no evolution not science and no facts.

Natural beekeeprs think that they are like Gods and relieve some day A BIG MYSTERY like mr. Nobel.

And why these nobelists are mostly beginners? - Who knows little he knows everything.

.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 04, 2006, 12:53:35 pm
Alberta beekeepers has many famous frofessionals.

One is Allen Dick


http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=120&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 04, 2006, 01:10:27 pm
We has just a debate in our forum that sugar in store is poison and honey had real sugar and honey is  good sugar.  And .... glucose is poison and fructose is good sugar.

Just awfull.

(http://www.bigelow.org/edhab/images/photosynthesis.jpg)
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 04, 2006, 01:27:37 pm
>4) Small cell question have known 10 years in USA. Why it has not revealed mite problem, or foul brood, nosema, or what else.

Small cell has been used by Dee Lusby for 18 years with no treatments.  10 about 8 years short.  Why has it not caught on?  Not very many people have been doing it.  It IS catching on.  Dadant is now offering, not just 4.9mm unwired deeps, but 4.9mm wired deeps and 4.9mm wired mediums.  Obviously it IS catching on.  But anything nees to reach enough critical mass than others can see it working.

>* They say that natural comb size. Small cell is not natural comb size.

My bees are building their own combs.  They are small cells.  When I started the bees were Italians, Carniolans, Russians and Buckfasts.  They all drew small cells (4.6mm to 5.1mm mostly).  How can they not be natural comb size? If you use 4.9mm foundation, it's not natural comb size but it's as close as you'll get with foundation.

>* Bees do not need honey for comb building.

I have never said that.

>* Natural comb sizes has not saved bees from diseases or from varroa.

But it HAS and it IS.  There are many small cell beekeepers.  They are using now chemicals and have kept healthy bees from the time they got them regressed.  There are hudreds that I know and many more that I don't know, I'm sure.

>* Diseases have developed in natural beehives during million of years. They are not products of human.

The problems with those diseases are rather recent.

>* Natural beekeepers never talk that varroa also go through succesfull evolution and takes it's place more and more in beehives.

Since I know of no case of eveolution being observed in anything, I think it's a moot point.  BUT a "successful" parasite doesn't kill it's host.

>You know those people who still believe that God made all nature during 6 days. There is no genes, no evolution not science and no facts.

Yes, you can lump me into that if you like.  I believe God created all nature. I don't care if it was in 6 days.  But I've been a "scientist" all my life.  I've never believed anything just because someone says it.  I want to see how it works and confirm that it works.  I've solved problems all my adult life.  I write computer programs.  I have to set up experiments on a daily basis to resolve computer problems to eliminate what something could be or what it's not.  If there is a flaw in my logic there is no mistaking it because it won't work if there is.  I've also been experimenting with bees for the last 32 years.

>Natural beekeeprs think that they are like Gods and relieve some day A BIG MYSTERY like mr. Nobel.

I think no one will listen to anyone who doesn't have a PHD in entomology.  I think the odds of a Nobel prize for a beekeeper are nonexistant.  I certainly have no such expectations.

>And why these nobelists are mostly beginners? - Who knows little he knows everything.

Dee Lusby has been keeping bees all her life.  She's in her 50's now.  I've been keeping bees since 1974.  BWrangler has been a commercial beekeper most of his adult life and I think he's in his 50's also.  I don't think we are beginners.

Finsky, I think you are a very talented, experiencd, generous and wise beekeeper. I appreciate your advice and experience.  Especially in a cold climate, since I also live in a cold climate, even if not as cold as yours.  I have great respect for what you know.  The things you have experienced and observed are very useful to all of us.  But what experience do you have with natural drawn comb?  What experience to you have with small cell or natural cell and Varroa?  How many hives of natural cell have you kept without treatments at all?  For how many years?  I held many of the same views you have about comb drawing and cell size up until I tried it for myself.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 04, 2006, 02:55:21 pm
> Small cell has been used by Dee Lusby for 18 years with no treatments. 10 about 8 years short. Why has it not caught on? Not very many people have been doing it. It IS catching on. Dadant is now offering, not just 4.9mm unwired deeps, but 4.9mm wired deeps and 4.9mm wired mediums. <

Just because Dadant is selling it, doesn't mean it works. Come on, they just want to make money. Any thing you'll buy they'll sell. Look, I know the whole history of this thing. Erikson talked about it back in the early 1990s. He said at the time that it looked promising, but the future was in bee breeding. What have the Lusby's done? They admit they have been selecting from survivors, so their whole result could be from selection and not from small cells at all. They also live in the southernmost part of arizona where they don't really have winter. A hive with a low grade varroa infestation can't make it through a real winter, where it might in a tropical area. their whole approach is to deny anything that anyone says that goes against them. They think they have collected native bees form the rocks in the wilderness, bees that were here before the spanish settled america. There weren't any bees here then! Everyone who has read one book on bees knows that. They deny they have african bees despite the dozens of reports that african bees have saturated the whole area. If anyone is contemplating buying bees from arizona, better think twice. Those bees ID positive for african. the bee people in florida have intercepted and killed them. do you want to be the first in your state to have africans? do you want the papers to run a story sayin gyou deliberately imported african bees?

der bee meister
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 04, 2006, 05:36:54 pm
> Small cell has been used by Dee Lusby for 18 years with no treatments.

>10 about 8 years short.

18 years ago they went to 5.0mm cell size.  10 years ago they went to 4.9mm cell size.  For 18 years they have been surviving Varroa with no treatments and smaller cells.

>Just because Dadant is selling it, doesn't mean it works.

Of course it doesn't prove it works.  But the issue brought up is why doesn't it catch on if it works.  The point this proves is that it is catching on.

>What have the Lusby's done? They admit they have been selecting from survivors, so their whole result could be from selection and not from small cells at all.

They've always been raising survivors but when the Varroa hit they lost most of them because they wouldn't treat.  Certainly breeding is helpful. But so is a 19 day brood cycle.

> They also live in the southernmost part of arizona where they don't really have winter.

I don't.  I know small cell beekeepers in Alaska, Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan.  Name a cold state there are probably small cell beekeepers there.

>A hive with a low grade varroa infestation can't make it through a real winter, where it might in a tropical area.

While it is warmer there, a lot of their hives are up quite high.

> their whole approach is to deny anything that anyone says that goes against them.

Dee is a very firm believer in the concept that any chemicals will backfire.  She is a bit "religious in her ferver.  That doesn't mean she's wrong.

> They think they have collected native bees form the rocks in the wilderness, bees that were here before the spanish settled america. There weren't any bees here then!

Dee suspects they have been here longer than currently thought.  She suspects they were brought here, but sooner than thought.  A lot of this is because the DNA tests she gets done can't seem to be pinned down and usually come back as some variant of Caucasian, but not quite.  Since I wasn't here when the bees got here, I certainly don't know when they got here.

> Everyone who has read one book on bees knows that.

Just because its in a book doesn't make it true.  Much speculation that was taught as truth has been overturned over the years as the evidence finally accumulates enough to question what was accepted.

> They deny they have african bees despite the dozens of reports that african bees have saturated the whole area.

Who would want to keep Africanized bees?

>If anyone is contemplating buying bees from arizona, better think twice.

As far as I know, there is no one selling bees from Arizona.

>Those bees ID positive for african. the bee people in florida have intercepted and killed them. do you want to be the first in your state to have africans?

Try buying queens from Texas.  :)

> do you want the papers to run a story sayin gyou deliberately imported african bees?

Who would want africanized bees?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 04, 2006, 07:05:22 pm
>Those bees ID positive for african. the bee people in florida have intercepted and killed them. do you want to be the first in your state to have africans?

I'm still trying to understand what you are saying here.  What are "those bees"?  Where did "those bees" come from that were IDed as African and what method of identification was used to ID them as African?

Florida has Africans from Africa now.  Pure scuts that apparently hitched a ride on a ship.  I'm not aware of any other source of AHB in Florida other than the pollinators who keep going to California who might bring back some AHB.

Could you please fill in the blanks, because I have no antecedent for the pronoun "those" as in "those bees".

I also don’t understand what African bees have to do with natural cell size.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.  I see no connection.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 04, 2006, 07:22:23 pm
ME:
If anyone is contemplating buying bees from arizona, better think twice. Those bees ID positive for african.

MICHAEL:
I'm still trying to understand what you are saying here. What are "those bees"? Where did "those bees" come from that were IDed as African and what method of identification was used to ID them as African?

ME:
Read it again. arizona. small cell bees from arizona were shipped to florida and california. they test positive for african, according to florida authorities. they are killing them

MICHAEL:
I'm not aware of any other source of AHB in Florida

ME:
now you are.

MICHAEL:
I also don’t understand what African bees have to do with natural cell size. Perhaps you can enlighten me. I see no connection.

ME:
the cell size of european and african bees are different. wings too. these were used to identify these types as the africans invaded south and central america. (Spivak) the african bees build the smaller cells, so a natural swarm can be identified by measuring cells size. smaller than 5, probably african. larger than 5mm, probably euro. there are hybrids, at least at first. feral colonies in texas, arizona, calif, and now florida are assumed to be african. now they generally use wing length, africans have shorter length wings. if the wings are longer than 9 mm no need to test further. deliberately raising small bees obscures the inherent difference. I am not making this up.

der bee meister
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 04, 2006, 08:13:35 pm
>the cell size of european and african bees are different. wings too. these were used to identify these types as the africans invaded south and central america. (Spivak) the african bees build the smaller cells, so a natural swarm can be identified by measuring cells size. smaller than 5, probably african.

But, since the only reason the Europeans are larger is the foundation, that seems like a very inaccurate way to determine their origin.  I've seen plenty of less than 5.0  from commercial EHB queens of Italian, Russian, Buckfast and Carniolan.

>deliberately raising small bees obscures the inherent difference. I am not making this up.

I'm deliberately letting the bees be whatever size God intended.  I don't consider that deliberately obscuring the differences and the differences are not "inherent" if the bees are building that size cells.  It seems to me that they are deliberately picking a test that will result in any EHB on small cell being determined to be African.

I still see no connection between natural cell size and people supposedly raising AHB other than the obfuscation created by the people who made up the FABIS test.  It remains to be seen if that is intentional or accidental but the results are not going to be good for people who just want to raise bees in a natural system.
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: TwT on February 04, 2006, 09:15:42 pm
Quote from: derbeemeister
ME:
ME:
Read it again. arizona. small cell bees from arizona were shipped to florida and california. they test positive for african, according to florida authorities. they are killing them



WHERE DID YOU HERE THIS INFO?????, THE WORD over here is that they come from the ships about 10 years ago, in arizona when the first hive was found in florida, the bee inspectors in arizona that wouldn't let people ship bee out of state with out test, where did you hear this? beside there are no shipping dock in arizona. want to buy some ocean front property in arizona?
 

Quote from: derbeemeister
ME:
the cell size of european and african bees are different. wings too. these were used to identify these types as the africans invaded south and central america. (Spivak) the african bees build the smaller cells, so a natural swarm can be identified by measuring cells size. smaller than 5, probably african. larger than 5mm, probably euro. there are hybrids, at least at first. feral colonies in texas, arizona, calif, and now florida are assumed to be african. now they generally use wing length, africans have shorter length wings. if the wings are longer than 9 mm no need to test further. deliberately raising small bees obscures the inherent difference. I am not making this up.

der bee meister


im not on small cell, but I'm am on pierco frames and they measure 5.2mm  in cell size, I'll tell you now that my bee's are smaller when young than regular frames, and my bee's are not african, there kona and removals,,,,you cant tell me that a bee that is not african is the only bee that can be raised on smaller cells, and for the florida bee's, they have said them bee's come from the docks, you have to do more research man, so you saying if MB can raise bee's on cells smaller than 4.9 then his bee's are africa? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,,,,,, i HAVE SEEN PLENTY ON SMALL CELL AND THEY ARE NOT AFRICAN AND SOME WAS ON NATURAL DRAWN COMB ( notice I didn't say natural size comb), SO I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY,,,,,,, YOU NEED TO DO MORE SEEING THAN HEARING BEFORE CONDEMING OTHERS, and I have seen it, now weather small cell is the answer, I have never thought that small cell was the answer but I do believe it will be the resistance bee's them selves, but small cell might also help, im going to try 2 hives and see for myself if its a waist of time or not. I'll tell in this forum when its complete...PIECE OUT and FLOWER POWER TO YOU CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 05, 2006, 03:01:23 am
I have collected in my mind Mickhael's ideas about beekeeping. It is not small cell but natural way to nurse bees. When I look details, it means that I skills should go backwars AT LEAST 50 years. In those days ordinary beekeepers handled hives like Mickhael says. Even 20 years ago I met those beekeepers but varroa killed their hives and hives are now rotten.

I was lucky that I met a guy who had worked in Canada and he was able to translate  American beekeeping skills for Finland. He had ordered boath American beekeeping magazines to his home. He really did worked many pioneering methods for Finland.

I have lived the period where most of beekeepers nursed bees like Michael. They got about 30-40 lbs honey per hive. Now I get four times more.  

The question is not varroa. Question is on the whole back to nature. No thanks.  IT MEANS REGRESSION OF BEEKEEPER.

It would be honest to tell new hobby beekeepers that wax strips and small cells and swarming crossbreeded bee stocks  is ART OF REGRESSED BEEKEEPING.  
But I am tired to give comments all the to same stupid things.  You should give new name to this forum: REGRESSION FORUM.
.
.
Title: AHB --- are they or aren't they?
Post by: Joseph Clemens on February 05, 2006, 05:17:16 am
I thought this topic was about small-cell foundation?

Oh well, following the current tangent:

    -- I don't care if my bees are AHB or any other mutt bee (I don't believe there are any "pure" strains/races in this country). I care if they aren't bothered by the myriad pests and diseases that are most everywhere these days. I care if they are productive -- can bring in a suitable surplus. I care if their defense level permits working them and keeping them in relatively close proximity to neighbors and livestock. If they can hang in there with my lack of treatments, I can accept a slightly lower productivity, but if they present themselves to be overly defensive, they've gotta go, AHB or not.

    -- I've kept bees since 1964 and I've never treated with any "modern" chemicals, or other means, until recently when I've begun using some small-cell foundation and I've never lost a colony in all that time.

Bottom line: Why is there so much concern over the ancestral origins of "Bad bees". Overly-defensive bees gotta go, it shouldn't matter where they initially originated. If one of my colonies starts acting up, I'm not going to worry about their ancestry.
Title: Re: AHB --- are they or aren't they?
Post by: Finsky on February 05, 2006, 07:06:43 am
Quote from: Joseph Clemens
   -- I've kept bees since 1964 and I've never treated with any "modern" chemicals, or other means, until recently .


You have been lucky. We have one beekeeper on Polar Circle and he has no diseases there behind God's back.

Varroa came to our area strong in the year 1987. My mother-in-law visited in Germany and she brought Perizin and I gived it to my bees. We had no legal cure against varroa at that time.

My best friend had 60 hives before winter. He said that he had sawn mites in hives. I said:" I give you Perizin and it cost nothing. Come and take.  He said:" I don't care this year, thanks. Lets see next year.  He lost 30 hives.

Same time one professional did not get importing licence to peritzin and he lost 400 hives.

At winter 3 years ago I lost 60% of my hives. One big reason was that I had got Apistan resistant mite population. It was blessing to me. By force I took into use such tricks into use, that now my yields are 80% bigger than before catastrophe.  - Thanks to God that I knew nothing about regression.

I had known 40 years the anvantage of electrict heating and now I took it into use.  :P  

We have stories. But most of people to whom I give advices, does not use them. That is their business.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 05, 2006, 09:34:43 am
MICHAEL;
But, since the only reason the Europeans are larger is the foundation, that seems like a very inaccurate way to determine their origin.

me:
Man, you bought that hook, line and sinker. No reputable entomologist would agree with that statement. Dozens of people have made their entire careers out of measuring the sizes of bees, and their respective cells. Randall Hepburn, Steve Sheppard, Marla Spivak. The notion that europena bees were smaller before foundation is BS

join:
Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee BiologyBEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU

ME:
this is obviously a very uninformed discussion. Goodbye.
Title: O M G !!!
Post by: Jack Parr on February 05, 2006, 09:51:23 am
This debate on small cell was interesting until GOD, was injected into the issue.

Usually GOD is injected when there is a need to reinforce some flaky ideas. Since no one CAN ACTUALLY SEE " GOD " there is always the allure of the mysterious to explain the un-explained.(  A shiver and goose bumps are called for here).  :lol:

Hey, I vote Republican anyway!!!
Title: Re: O M G !!!
Post by: Finsky on February 05, 2006, 10:06:34 am
Quote from: Jack Parr
This debate on small cell was interesting until GOD, was injected into the issue.


I really think that this only killing time. Small cell here, small cell there, ewrywhere small cells, hiia hii hou!
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 05, 2006, 10:45:30 am
>But, since the only reason the Europeans are larger is the foundation, that seems like a very inaccurate way to determine their origin.

>Man, you bought that hook, line and sinker.

No.  I did not.  I didn't believe it at all until I took bees and put them on natural cell and took those bees and put them on natural cell.  I've never bought anything "hook line and sinker" in my life.

> No reputable entomologist would agree with that statement. Dozens of people have made their entire careers out of measuring the sizes of bees, and their respective cells. Randall Hepburn, Steve Sheppard, Marla Spivak.

I HAVE asked them and you are correct that they would not agree.  But ask them what size a EHB will build if you let them build natural comb and they will say 5.1mm to 5.2mm.  Ask them what they the bees raised on 5.1mm to 5.2mm will build if you let them and they give you a blank look.  I know.  I've asked several of the reputable entomologists.  The experiment is, at best, only half over on the first try.

And still, in spite of the fact that they will say that EHB build 5.2mm they use 5.4mm foundation.

>The notion that europena bees were smaller before foundation is BS

Have you tried it? It's a simple experiment.  I certainly do NOT expect you to believe because I said so.  I expect you to be a scientist and find out for yourself.

>this is obviously a very uninformed discussion. Goodbye.

A very inexperienced discussion, apparently. People with no experience denying the observations of one group of people based on different observations under different circumstances (only one regression) by another group of people but unwilling to try to find out the truth themselves.

>This debate on small cell was interesting until GOD, was injected into the issue.

I didn't. Finsky did and I obliged.  But that is irrelevant to the discussion which is what will EHB build and what is the result of them being on that size cell.  Was there any time that wasn't the point of the discussion?

>Usually GOD is injected when there is a need to reinforce some flaky ideas.

Or when someone wants to brand the idea as flaky when God was not part of the discussion.

>I really think that this only killing time. Small cell here, small cell there, ewrywhere small cells, hiia hii hou!

I would get used to it.  The number of small cell beekeepers is growing.  :)
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 05, 2006, 10:57:20 am
Quote from: Michael Bush
> The number of small cell beekeepers is growing.  :)


And what does it means? What then when all use small cells? What then?

50 years ago in my country we had very few Langstrot hives. Now allmost all are Langstroths. Perhaps after 100 years our all hives are TOPBAR:
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 05, 2006, 11:55:48 am
>And what does it means? What then when all use small cells? What then?

Healthy bees?

>50 years ago in my country we had very few Langstrot hives. Now allmost all are Langstroths. Perhaps after 100 years our all hives are TOPBAR:

Perhaps.  Perhaps not. Why is that a threat to you?  Top bar hives are easy to build and easy to work.  I have lots of Langstroth hives and no intentions of getting rid of them.  What does that have to do with natural cell size?  Top bar hives are just one way to get natural cell size out of many options.  They are certainly not a requirement.

Most small cell people are using Langstroth hives an 4.9mm foundation.  Typical beekeeping practices.  Typical or higher yields.  How is that a step back?  Yes, I like natural cells.  Mostly because I frankly didn't believe that small cell was natural when it was presented and had to find out myself what the bees would build on their own.  Once a foundationless frame is drawn, I do whatever is expedient for me.  I extract them.  I make cut comb when I have a market for that.  What's so different?  Where is the giant step backwards?
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: jfischer on February 05, 2006, 06:57:19 pm
I wish that this had not "gotten out", but since it has, I can confirm
that Derbeemeister is correct.  

Housel's bees, progeny of apparently the same (perhaps marked) queens
he got from a certain "small cell" operation in AZ, were found to be very
"hot", which prompted him to call the State Apiarist, which led to a positive
DNA match with AHB DNA.

It could be that the hives at issue were usurped, or it
could be that they simply superceded, and we should
wait for some sort of official account before making any snap
judgements, but I'm guessing that all other possibilities have
been eliminated, and the queens were marked. Anything less would
prompt everyone to shrug, and charge it off to yet another case
of simple usurpation of an EHB hive by AHB.

> I'm still trying to understand what you are saying here. What are "those
> bees"? Where did "those bees" come from that were IDed as African
> and what method of identification was used to ID them as African?

It was DNA tests done by the Florida State Apiarist's office, and
I would rather not name any names, but it is a name that is
very familiar to you, Mike.

Note that I have no firm confirmation that the queens heading up each
hive were verified as being marked, but as usurpation would have been
the first guess when an existing apiary becomes hot, simple logic dictates
that the conclusion that the queens producing bees with significant AHB
DNA came in queen cages, rather than took over the hives via usurpation.

> Read it again. arizona. small cell bees from arizona were shipped to
> florida and california. they test positive for african, according to florida
> authorities. they are killing them

While I have nothing but hearsay about the California case, this is
what I have also heard from other sources.

> I also don’t understand what African bees have to do with natural cell
> size. Perhaps you can enlighten me. I see no connection.

There isn't any inherent connection, as you well know Mike,  so you
can stop your blustering.  :)  The connection is that bees represented
as "small cell bees" and sold in interstate commerce in this one case
turned out to be AHB, rather than regressed EHB.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 05, 2006, 10:32:40 pm
>It could be that the hives at issue were usurped, or it
could be that they simply superceded, and we should
wait for some sort of official account before making any snap
judgements, but I'm guessing that all other possibilities have
been eliminated, and the queens were marked. Anything less would
prompt everyone to shrug, and charge it off to yet another case
of simple usurpation of an EHB hive by AHB.

I'm afraid I am unaware of any of this.  As you say, if they were marked, that may be one thing.  If not, we know there are very pure African genetics in Florida already.

>There isn't any inherent connection, as you well know Mike, so you
can stop your blustering.

There are several posts in this thread and recently in a couple of others that seem to be insinuating a connection between the concept of small cell beekeeping and Africanized bees.  I'm merely trying to get some clarity and perhaps provide some back rather than the insinuations.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 05, 2006, 10:45:16 pm
Acutally, from my experience, if you're looking for someone shipping large numbers of AHB queens all over, I think I'd start looking in Texas.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: jfischer on February 05, 2006, 11:21:23 pm
Quote from: Michael Bush
Acutally, from my experience, if you're looking for someone shipping large numbers of AHB queens all over, I think I'd start looking in Texas.


Oh, don't say THAT!   :roll:
The approved phrase is "just don't EVER let those bees superceede"
saying anything else will result in legal threats against the website owner.
Just ask Aaron.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 06, 2006, 04:05:29 am
Now I understand how small cell shortens brood cycle from 21 day to 19.  :P
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 06, 2006, 04:47:10 am
Quote from: jfischer
The connection is that bees represented
as "small cell bees" and sold in interstate commerce in this one case
turned out to be AHB, rather than regressed EHB.



Very new point to beginners.
small cell beekeeping
http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sxpe.htm

Bwrangler writes:
http://bwrangler.atspace.com/bee/sxpe.htm

My Experience

Mite Tolerant Bees In Arizona
In 1996, the Bee Culture magazine published a couple of articles about some Arizona beekeepers who ran bees without using pesticides. ....

 The Lusby's were using a smaller cell sized foundation and also breeding from the local bee. As a small time queen producer, I suspected the real reason for their success was an influx of African genetics. I phoned them hoping to get some bee stock to evaluate
*******************

In other countries to develope mite resistant bees is more than difficult.

Solution has been in USA 10 years  and they still USA suffers exanding losses by varroa. - Why it does not work on professional level?

In New Zeland they want no American bee blood from antivarroa hives. They are afraid that they get African genepool into their feral bees.

It seems that many beekeepers know a lot but they are afraid to write it.
.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 06, 2006, 08:01:16 am
>The approved phrase is "just don't EVER let those bees superceede"
saying anything else will result in legal threats against the website owner.

Then let me elaborate.  If states are going to get excited about people shipping AHB, I think they should ban all imports from any state with AHB or test the offsring of all of them.  But we beekeepers really should do this ourselves by not buying queens from ANY state with AHB and rasing our own.  We may have to eventually have to deal with AHB, but I'd love to put it off for as long as possible.

About the only thing I hate in beekeeping more than wax moths is really mean bees.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 06, 2006, 08:08:08 am
You can find more stuff here;

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeod3nx/id5.html
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: jfischer on February 06, 2006, 11:07:36 am
Quote from: Michael Bush
>If states are going to get excited about people
 shipping AHB, I think they should ban all imports from any state with AHB
or test the offspring of all of them.


This exists now, at the county level of granulation rather than state.  It
would be unfair to put someone "out of business" simply because there
was an AHB find somewhere in the state.  Further, queen breeders
are inspected for a number of diseases and pests just before they start
shipping queens and/or packages every year regardless of where they
are, so I think that the situation is "pretty much under control" without
adding the draconian restrictions you propose.

And this is not a case of anyone "getting excited".  In fact, there is much
angst and dismay, as the apiaries from which the queens issued have
been visited by many, and have not been witnessed to have "hot hives".

The point here is that "the system" works, when funded adequately
and staffed by people of good character.  That's good, because this
sort of thing is going to happen again.  To quote Bogart: "Maybe not
today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon — and for the rest of your life.
"
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 06, 2006, 12:47:20 pm
MICHAEL:

I'm afraid I am unaware of any of this.

ME:
You could have said that last week, but now you can't.

Der bee meister
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 06, 2006, 01:36:21 pm
Quote from: Finsky
Now I understand how small cell shortens brood cycle from 21 day to 19.  :P


arizona small cellers also state that the bees exhibit the ability to rear worker bees and queen bees using the eggs of laying workers in honey bee colonies (thelytoky) as well as swarms moving in and "requeening" colonies (nest usurpation). Both these are african bee traits. oh, and also, they test positive for african on morphometric tests, especially wing length & cell size. dave de Jong has been saying for years the answer to most beekeeping problems is to mix in african stock. they keep the hives filled with bees, have much less trouble with predators. now it is entirely possible the arizona small cellers have selected non-agressive african bees. no one doubts that possiblility. what SEEMS impossible is that they could be SURROUNDED by african swarms, have swarms moving into their hives, have workers raising queens from their own eggs, that they are naturally smaller -- AND these aren't african bees? could say more, but who wants to get sued
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 06, 2006, 01:44:36 pm
Quote from: derbeemeister

arizona small cellers also state that the bees exhibit the ability to rear worker bees and queen bees using the eggs of laying workers in honey bee colonies (thelytoky) as well as swarms moving in and "requeening" colonies (nest usurpation). Both these are african bee traits. oh, and also, they test positive for african on morphometric tests, especially wing length & cell size. dave de Jong has been saying for years the answer to most beekeeping problems is to mix in african stock. they keep the hives filled with bees, have much less trouble with predators. now it is entirely possible the arizona small cellers have selected non-agressive african bees. no one doubts that possiblility. what SEEMS impossible is that they could be SURROUNDED by african swarms, have swarms moving into their hives, have workers raising queens from their own eggs, that they are naturally smaller -- AND these aren't african bees? could say more, but who wants to get sued


OK Alright already. You can seem to explain away the small cell stuff in arizona by blaming tha Africans. NOW explain away the same thing for the small cell folks in Nebraska, Alaska ,New York, Main, All those places that have small cell bees living with no treatments and are no where near africanized bees.
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 06, 2006, 01:55:29 pm
We had in Finland feral bees yet 15 years ago. They were German black origin  (= Northern black) . Even if you byed Italian  or Caucasian queens,  black drones were first to mate with their daughters.  So most hives were crossings and quite mad even if they had F1 queens.

Varroa killed in short time feral bees. German black has now almost vanished from Finland. Now it is really  easy to handle bees here.

Few hive owners were the base of these "national" bees. Hives were so small that it is not possible to keep Italians or Caucasians in those hives. They were usually one brood box and one super. Their hives died and most never knew why they died.
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 06, 2006, 04:58:41 pm
small cell folks in Nebraska, Alaska ,New York, Main, All those places that have small cell bees living with no treatments and are no where near africanized bees.

I have seen no proof of anything. none. just hearsay. show me one believable side by side study that shows that bees do worse on normal comb than hives on some other size comb. show me

herve
Title: Re: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Jerrymac on February 06, 2006, 05:48:29 pm
Quote from: derbeemeister


I have seen no proof of anything. none. just hearsay. show me one believable side by side study that shows that bees do worse on normal comb than hives on some other size comb. show me

herve


AHHH. Now the question, what would you call a "believable side by side study"?

I guess you don't believe any of this stuff M. Bush claims to have done? OR are you suggesting that bees can manage just as well on large "regular" sized combs as small cell. If so why all the hype about treatments?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: derbeemeister on February 06, 2006, 08:34:50 pm
A believable side by side study would involve a number of hives, twenty or thirty, where half were treated in some way and the others were not. Simple. Then, the hives could be sampled for mites at the end of the season, or you could simply count how many died. If the treament hives had a better survival rate, then you might be on to something. Did Bush do this?

Trouble is, most people just do whatever it is to all the hives and then they can't know whether it is having the effect they want or the results are due to something else they did, or don't even know about. Like, non-virulent mites. Or maybe the mites have a predator that's taking them down. WIthout adequate controls, your work means nothing, not a darn thing.

Herve
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: LEAD PIPE on February 10, 2006, 04:36:18 am
Not just Dadant selling small cell now

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=288


http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=275CR

I don't understand

I don't see the harm in giving it a try. What problem could there be by putting a couple of hives on small cell? Or is it more an issue of people selling honey labeled as chemical free and causing problems for others not doing so?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Michael Bush on February 10, 2006, 07:40:24 am
>I have seen no proof of anything. none. just hearsay. show me one believable side by side study that shows that bees do worse on normal comb than hives on some other size comb. show me

And what would it cost you to do your own experiment?  People seem very set on Scientific studies but are totally unwilling to do a VERY SIMPLE experiment on their own.  Where's your curiosity?
Title: Small Cell Foundation Not For Beginners?
Post by: Finsky on February 10, 2006, 08:26:05 am
I got a good explanation how small cell works and why universities and authorities are so silent for issue. That is enough for me.