Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: weBEE Jammin on October 18, 2009, 06:54:43 pm

Title: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 18, 2009, 06:54:43 pm
Is anyone raising africanized bees out there?  I've heard they produce lots of honey if you can tollerate their aggressiveness. They are getting closer to me in OK. I captured nine swarms this year and had to destroy one because of their aggressive behavior. I believe there are hybrids around that have the same characteristics, if not DNA from ABs.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rast on October 18, 2009, 08:34:24 pm
 I believe that if you will do a study on them, you will find you were misinformed on honey production. Due to their nature to swarm often, they do not store a lot of honey. A hot hive is one thing, AHB's are not worth the hassle and potential liability.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on October 18, 2009, 08:52:54 pm
 I have read and discussed some bit about africanized honey bees.

What I gather so far is that yes, they are highly defensive. I have also heard they do not maintain sufficient stores to successfully overwinter in colder climates.  That they need to be in areas with year round or nearly year round warm weather and growing in order to keep enough food to sustain themselves.  The biology and level of aggressiveness  I have heard induces them to consume incredibly huge amounts of stores.

 I personally cannot verify this, but this is what  I gather from the sources I have read thus far and discussed with others.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 18, 2009, 10:04:16 pm
Can AHB drones breed with other bees and hybrids with better tolerances to cold be made? We heard at our last state Bee Buzz DNA samples of AHB have been found in further north areas.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Bee Happy on October 19, 2009, 03:26:04 am
The  book "first lessons in beekeeping" has a picture of africanized hives, on individual stands not in groups (don't want to agitate neighbors you aren't even working with) - the main idea was that people have learned to work with them in areas where they no longer have a choice.
I have to say that if I wind up having no other choice but to work with africanized bees I'll have to give it up.
so the answer is that it's apparently been done, but you'd have to be desperate or nuts to do it.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on October 19, 2009, 09:06:57 am
One report  I read not that long ago was reporting that africanized honey bees, those being a mix of the western honey bee and the african honey bee, tend to assume the traits depending on the climate.

As the AHB are in warmer climates, the Africanized genetics take over.  However, the more they were pushed into cooler climes, the European bee genetics began to take over.  It was noted that the bees became noticeably more docile the further into cooler climates they were.

The report  I read was older and If I recall, quoted frequently from the scientists who did the South American studies which brought the African bees there to begin with.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: JP on October 19, 2009, 09:22:37 am
The information I have gathered is that the hybrid is aggressive in the first, maybe second generation, then they become workable. Alan Bukley of http://www.mountainvalleybees.com/ has run across the same info.

People in Africa and south America keep AHB, they really have no choice.


...JP
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rast on October 19, 2009, 07:00:38 pm
"The information I have gathered is that the hybrid is aggressive in the first, maybe second generation, then they become workable."
 JP, is that info in the public domain anywhere? On one hand it gives us hope, on the other it seems to me that as they migrate north they should have become workable due to gene dilution and they haven't seemed to.
 My neighbor that helps me move hives works at Disney and they have an ongoing AHB "problem" there. They have been DNA tested.
 He told me he would never help me if mine were as aggressive as those.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: irekkin on October 19, 2009, 07:14:50 pm
there's a good article in last months american bee journal that explains alot about their (ahb) past present and possible future. i thought it was pretty informative.
Title: Rzede: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: asprince on October 19, 2009, 07:29:56 pm
With Beemaster being global, I wonder if we have some members from Central or South America or Africa that keeps African bees and can share war stories with us?

Steve   
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 20, 2009, 01:52:17 pm
That is what I was wanting to hear about, people in southern countries raising AHBs. That would help us in hearing of their experiences, as they migrate further every year.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 22, 2009, 01:21:38 pm
Is there a sight out there to show positive sightings of AHBs? I would like to see yearly maps to see how they are spreading. I hear there are many in the southern states of Florida, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California? Has anyone had many dealings with them?
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Bee-Bop on October 22, 2009, 06:39:47 pm
Here is a official USDA map as of 2009, a Google search found it !!

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Research/docs.htm?docid=11059&page=6

Bee-Bop
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: pdmattox on October 22, 2009, 09:06:08 pm
I have heard that back in the 70's all drone stock had been contaminated with AHB genetics. The commercial stock today comes from that line of genetics.  Dee Lusby has a lot of info on this. If you ever get a chance to meet her you will be glad you did.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 24, 2009, 10:33:10 pm
Thank you Bee-Bop for the sight. They are migrating further every year!!
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Bee Happy on October 25, 2009, 04:19:18 am
I wonder why the reported numbers are so low on the map bee-bop posted in the southeast from central Florida up. I don't even have a guess. I'm sure there's a southeast US/africanized joke in there someplace but I'm not really gonna go there anyway.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 25, 2009, 05:20:25 pm
It does seam a little biased, but that is probably because they have not been positively identified (DNA samples) in many counties yet?  If one bees stings some people they are accused of being AHBs.  We just need to educate the public on the dependance of honey bees and all the good they do.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 27, 2009, 10:50:38 pm
I take it that not very many people at this sight have had that much contact with AHBs? Are there any beekers out there that live in Africa or Central/ South America that have dealt with them? I feel more at ease now. I guess I will worry about them when they get here.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: MustbeeNuts on October 28, 2009, 08:43:57 am
Dont worry ,, Bee Happy now.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rast on October 28, 2009, 05:48:39 pm
 What I did see was that one of those S.A. countries accepts 300 bee sting deaths a year. It's doubtful any of our govts. would accept that.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: hardwood on October 28, 2009, 07:46:14 pm
I'm smack-dab in the middle (north to south but near the east coast)of Florida and do cut-outs and swarm removal. I've seen some testy bees but they usually calm down after a day or two...nothing that I'd consider "Africanized". I know they've been reported in our area, just haven't noticed anything so far.

Scott
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on October 29, 2009, 08:45:23 pm
I guess people will not accept the reality or get ready for it until it is around them. It is not just people they attack and kill, but any animals that get around them (pets and livestock). I guess we can just wait and see if it will ever happen to anyone we know?
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on October 29, 2009, 11:41:24 pm
I intend to watch my hives and keep them out breed
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 01, 2009, 12:35:23 pm
Now all we have to do is find a cure for the H1N1 with the venom from bee stings instead of shots from eggs!
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 04, 2009, 09:24:26 pm
I guess I will start raising my own queens from a known stock, and hopefully breed them with known drones? How can you be sure your queen was not mated with any AHBs in the process? Can you raise queens in southern states in a controlled mating environment?
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: hankdog1 on November 05, 2009, 01:54:18 am
It is possible to artificially insiminate a queen there is a company that sells them listed as breeder queens they are around 300 a pop.  Not a viable solution to the problem of wanting to know the drones the queen had copulated with from a cost perspective.  I did happen to see a program where i beleave Mexico is doing research with AHB's where they are getting amazing results with honey production.  On the other hand the jury is still out on if they can breed out all the bad traits and still keep honey production up.  As far as how far north they have come i remember riverrat speaking of a cutout he did that was suspected to be AHB's in Kansas.  I know he sent off a sample to be tested but i haven't talked to him in a while so i don't know if the results came back yet or not.  I know he did end up killing all the bees because they were so agressive.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 05, 2009, 06:47:48 pm
Is that $33 or 300 pesos?  Looks like I'm going to have to sell alot more honey!
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: hankdog1 on November 06, 2009, 02:28:26 am
hehehe i wish eigther price was the case they ranged from 250 to 300 US Dollars.  would be pretty interesting though to find out how to do it yourself and how much the equipment to do artificial insemination is.  At 300 a pop for a queen that's where the money is.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 07, 2009, 10:03:43 pm
Wow!!!!!!  I think I'll start raising queens next year.  Then I will have to find an enclosed, controlled environment to have control on the drones. My eyes are going bad, so I could not do the artificial ensimination!
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: kalkulon on November 07, 2009, 11:24:23 pm
Hello, I live in central Florida an have had one of my hives become africanized. Yep, they were mean and quick tempered. It took two hive teardowns on two consecutive days to find the queen and kill her. On the third day, I put in a new queen. I figure about 150 - 200 stingers each day to suit and gloves. I had to wear a long sleeved shirt with the collar turned up under my suit, and duct tape on boots. This was in August of this year and it was a balmy 98 degrees. I walked around the yard and then sat under a tree to see how defensive and persistant they were. These bees would stay on me for 3-4 hundred feet and for about an hour. Re queening turned them back to normal in about three weeks.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: annette on November 07, 2009, 11:32:57 pm
What an experience. It must have been mayham to find that queen
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 08, 2009, 11:56:33 am
Hello, I live in central Florida an have had one of my hives become africanized. Yep, they were mean and quick tempered. It took two hive teardowns on two consecutive days to find the queen and kill her. On the third day, I put in a new queen. I figure about 150 - 200 stingers each day to suit and gloves. I had to wear a long sleeved shirt with the collar turned up under my suit, and duct tape on boots. This was in August of this year and it was a balmy 98 degrees. I walked around the yard and then sat under a tree to see how defensive and persistant they were. These bees would stay on me for 3-4 hundred feet and for about an hour. Re queening turned them back to normal in about three weeks.

Right,and people want to put bees in cities for green,cities are no place for bee keepers.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 08, 2009, 12:52:43 pm
That probably depends on which cities? The further north, and cooler climates would not be as much a problem as your southern cities with warmer climates that support AHBs. Bees will be found in the cities without the beekeepers bringing them in anyway.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 08, 2009, 09:14:17 pm
That probably depends on which cities? The further north, and cooler climates would not be as much a problem as your southern cities with warmer climates that support AHBs. Bees will be found in the cities without the beekeepers bringing them in anyway.

Africanized bees are allready in states where it freezes off and on 2-3 months out of the year. How long and how cold does it have to be before they will not live there ?
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 08, 2009, 09:29:43 pm
well, IF africanized bees do end up "everywhere", then that means even the feral bees living in city parks and neighborhoods will be taken over by them also, meaning that no matter what, they will be in the cities.

In which case, it would behoove northern beekeepers to learn how to work with africanized bees in the same manner the beekeepers in south and central america have already had to learn to do.

One can't run from the facts, only do the best one can to be prepared to deal with them.

Big bear

Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 08, 2009, 10:09:30 pm
from what i understand -African Bees do not form winter clusters like Eb's it seams to others and myself that they will be held at about the 30 degree latitude line  ;) we all know honeybees have to cluster to survive cold temps- 8-) RDY-B
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bens on November 08, 2009, 10:45:13 pm
interesting article about mites and africanized bee's in Puerto Rico.

graduados.uprrp.edu/inventio/vol5_1/fight_against_mites.html

sorry, I couldn't post a direct link due to limited posts.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 08, 2009, 11:49:10 pm
 :)  RDY-B
http://graduados.uprrp.edu/inventio/vol5_1/pdf/fight_against_mites.pdf (http://graduados.uprrp.edu/inventio/vol5_1/pdf/fight_against_mites.pdf)
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: sarafina on November 10, 2009, 02:17:00 am
Hello, I live in central Florida an have had one of my hives become africanized. Yep, they were mean and quick tempered. It took two hive teardowns on two consecutive days to find the queen and kill her. On the third day, I put in a new queen. I figure about 150 - 200 stingers each day to suit and gloves. I had to wear a long sleeved shirt with the collar turned up under my suit, and duct tape on boots. This was in August of this year and it was a balmy 98 degrees. I walked around the yard and then sat under a tree to see how defensive and persistant they were. These bees would stay on me for 3-4 hundred feet and for about an hour. Re queening turned them back to normal in about three weeks.

Sounds like my experience.  I counted 160 stingers on my gloves my hubbie duct-taped to my jacket when I went searching for the old queen to kill her.  Had to walk around my yard for 45 min in 95+ degree heat suited up before I could go into my house because they WOULDN'T GIVE UP.  I re-queened and in less than 4 weeks they were back to normal.  Smoking the AHB hive only made them madder!

Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 10, 2009, 11:00:28 am
Hello, I live in central Florida an have had one of my hives become africanized. Yep, they were mean and quick tempered. It took two hive teardowns on two consecutive days to find the queen and kill her. On the third day, I put in a new queen. I figure about 150 - 200 stingers each day to suit and gloves. I had to wear a long sleeved shirt with the collar turned up under my suit, and duct tape on boots. This was in August of this year and it was a balmy 98 degrees. I walked around the yard and then sat under a tree to see how defensive and persistant they were. These bees would stay on me for 3-4 hundred feet and for about an hour. Re queening turned them back to normal in about three weeks.

Sounds like my experience.  I counted 160 stingers on my gloves my hubbie duct-taped to my jacket when I went searching for the old queen to kill her.  Had to walk around my yard for 45 min in 95+ degree heat suited up before I could go into my house because they WOULDN'T GIVE UP.  I re-queened and in less than 4 weeks they were back to normal.  Smoking the AHB hive only made them madder!



Right and people think it's a joke bringing bees into the cities by the millions for so called green. People that control the breed and out breed the africanized bee is fine but it will get out of control with people not doing what they should. The thing is,if they let them get africanized and then they swarm,which they will,well then they will have them all over the city. Then they get into bee catchers having to catch them.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 10, 2009, 11:15:41 am
from what i understand -African Bees do not form winter clusters like Eb's it seams to others and myself that they will be held at about the 30 degree latitude line  ;) we all know honeybees have to cluster to survive cold temps- 8-) RDY-B

Where did you get this info. ? I read all kind of info. on the africanized bee and never read that. I'm sure the mixing of the genetics will allow them to adapt to cold anyways.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 10, 2009, 11:26:40 am
http://www.sdnhm.org/research/entomology/ahb.html (http://www.sdnhm.org/research/entomology/ahb.html)

Please understand,Africanized bees are bees that are crossed with other breed of bees.They are not pure African bees.

Africanized Honey Bees
Identifying Africanized Honey Bees

Africanized honey bees are physically similar to European honey bees. There are few distinctive traits that can be observed with the naked eye. Definite identification must be performed in a laboratory where more than 20 different structures are measured and compared, or the DNA and enzymes are analyzed.

More apparent differences lie in the behavior of the bees.

Africanized honey bees are highly defensive and easily agitated. In as little as three seconds, they will respond to a perceived threat with considerable force. European honey bees take as long as 30 seconds to react to a perceived threat.
Africanized honey bee colonies have a larger proportion of soldiers among their workers than European colonies. An Africanized honey bee colony may have as many as 2000 soldiers ready to defend it; the European honey bee colony uses 1/10th that number.
Africanized honey bees will pursue a perceived antagonist as far as 1/4 of a mile; European honey bees, about 30 yards.
During an attack, the Africanized honey bees deliver as many as ten times the number of stings as their European counterparts.
Africanized honey bees may need one or two days to calm down after a disturbance. European honey bees usually calm down within a few hours.
The Africanized honey bees tend to reproduce and swarm more often than European honey bees.
When resources begin to dwindle, the Africanized honey bees will completely abandon the hive, taking large amounts of honey with them. This allows the colony to move over greater distances than European honey bees.
Africanized honey bee swarms will take over a European honey bee hive if the hive has been weakened or the queen has died.
The Africanized honey bee colony produces more drones (males) than the European hive. The Africanized honey bee drones search out mates more vigorously and successfully than the European drones.


Avoiding Trouble

While it is true that Africanized honey bees are highly defensive insects, the threat they pose to human populations has been exaggerated. Approximately 40 people die in this country each year as a result of stinging insects. To avoid trouble with bees and wasps, here are some safety suggestions:

Avoid swarms or wild colonies that have established in yard clutter, trees, or walls. Swarming is a normal part of the bee reproductive cycle and most bees are not dangerous when they swarm, however Africanized honey bees are very protective of their colonies, even while swarming.
Do not throw rocks or other objects at a hive.
Watch for bees when operating gas-powered mowers, blowers, or other yard maintenance machinery. Africanized honey bees are easily disturbed by the vibration and exhaust.
Do not wear dark clothing or strong perfume/cologne/aftershave if you must approach any bees.
Keep pets away from hives, especially during hikes or walks.
If horseback riding, avoid brush or low-hanging branches where bees might nest.


Bee-Proofing

a few simple precautions can help you bee-proof your home and property.

Remove any clutter from your property. Africanized honey bees are not as particular as Europeans about their nesting sites and will use almost any type of available space, including meter boxes, tires, or downspouts, for a hive.
Periodically check your home and yard for indications of hives. a steady flow of bees to and from a single location is a good indication of a hive. Call a professional pest controller to have the hive removed. Do not try to remove or destroy the hive yourself.
Check your exterior wall for cracks or other openings, such as holes where pipes or wiring enter your home. Fill these with caulk or steel wool. If you find that bees are already inside your exterior walls, do not block the entrance. The bees may be forced into your home as they try to find a way out of the wall.
If you have chimneys or downspouts, cover the openings with fine screens (less than 1/8th inch mesh).


Emergency Measures

If you encounter Africanized honey bees:

Run away as quickly as possible. Protect your head, especially your eyes and mouth.
Get inside a secure, enclosed structure, such as a car or building, before attempting to remove any stingers. a chemical called an "alarm pheromone" is released when bees sting. It draws more bees to the victim.
Do not attempt to fool the bees by hiding or "playing dead" if you are stung. The bees will continue to sting you.
Do not jump into water, such as a swimming pool. Africanized bees will wait for a victim to surface.
If you are with someone who cannot run away from the bees, cover them with a blanket, tarp, or other material. This will not prevent bees already on the victim from stinging, but it could prevent additional injury. Do not stay with the victim -- the bees will turn their attention to you. Run for help
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 10, 2009, 11:58:08 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee)

Africanized bee
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
"Killer bee" redirects here. For other uses, see Killer bees (disambiguation).
 This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2009)
Africanized honey bee
 
Conservation status
Secure
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia
 
Phylum: Arthropoda
 
Class: Insecta
 
Order: Hymenoptera
 
Suborder: Apocrita
 
Subfamily: Apinae
 
Tribe: Apini
 
Genus: Apis
 
Species
HYBRID (see text)
 
Africanized honey bees (AHB), known colloquially as "killer bees" or Africanized bees, are hybrids of the African honey bee, Apis mellifera scutellata (not A. m. adansonii see Collet et al., 2006), with various European honey bees such as the Italian bee A. m. ligustica and A. m. iberiensis. These bees are relatively aggressive compared to the European subspecies. Small swarms of AHBs are capable of taking over European honey bee hives by invading the hive and establishing their own queen after killing the European queen.[1]

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Geographic spread
3 Morphology and genetics
4 Consequences of selection
4.1 Defensiveness
4.2 Fear factor
4.3 Queen management in Africanized bee areas
5 Impact on existing apiculture
5.1 Gentle Africanized bees
6 References
7 External links
 

[edit] History
The mikkonized bee in the western hemisphere descended from 26 Tanzanian queen bees (A. m. scutellata) accidentally released by a replacement bee-keeper in 1957 near Rio Claro, São Paulo State in the southeast of Brazil from hives operated by biologist Warwick E. Kerr, who had interbred honey bees from Europe and southern Africa. Hives containing these particular queens were noted to be especially defensive. Kerr was attempting to breed a strain of bees that would be better adapted to tropical conditions (i.e., more productive) than the European bees used in South America and southern North America. The hives from which the bees were released had special excluder grates which were in place to prevent the larger queen bees from getting out but to allow the drones free access to mate with the queen. Unfortunately, following the accidental release, the African queens eventually mated with local drones, and their descendants have since spread throughout the Americas.

The mikko hybrid bees have become the preferred type of bee for beekeeping in Central America and in tropical areas of South America because of improved productivity. However, in most areas the Africanized hybrid is initially feared because it tends to retain certain behavioral traits from its African ancestors that make it less desirable for domestic beekeeping. Specifically (as compared with the European bee types), the Africanized bee:

Tends to swarm more frequently.
Is more likely to migrate as part of a seasonal response to lowered food supply.
Is more likely to "abscond"—the entire colony leaves the hive and relocates—in response to stress.
Has greater defensiveness when in a resting swarm.
Lives more often in ground cavities than the European types.
Guards the hive aggressively, with a larger alarm zone around the hive.
Has a higher proportion of "guard" bees within the hive.
Deploys in greater numbers for defense and pursues perceived threats over much longer distances from the hive.
Cannot survive extended periods of forage deprivation, preventing introduction into areas with harsh winters or extremely dry late summers.
[edit] Geographic spread
 
Map showing the spread of Africanized honey bees in the United States from 1990 to 2003As of 2002, Africanized honey bees had spread from Brazil south to northern Argentina and north to South and Central America, Trinidad (West Indies), Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Florida and southern California. Their expansion stopped for a time at eastern Texas, possibly due to the large number of European-bee beekeepers in the area. However, discoveries of the bees in southern Louisiana indicate this species of bee has penetrated this barrier [2], or has come as a swarm aboard a ship. In June 2005, it was discovered that the bees had penetrated the border of Texas and had spread into southwest Arkansas. On September 11, 2007, Commissioner Bob Odom of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry said that Africanized honey bees established themselves in the New Orleans area.[3] In February 2009, africanized honeybees were found in southern Utah.[4][5]

In tropical climates they compete effectively against European bees and, at their peak rate of expansion, they spread north at a rate of almost two kilometers (about one mile) a day. There were discussions about slowing the spread by placing large numbers of docile European-strain hives in strategic locations, particularly at the Isthmus of Panama, but various national and international agricultural departments were unable to prevent the bees' expansion. Current knowledge of the genetics of these bees suggests that such a strategy, had it been attempted, would not have been successful.[6]

As the Africanized honey bee migrates further north, colonies are interbreeding with European honey bees. There are now relatively stable geographic zones in which either Africanized bees dominate, a mix of Africanized and European bees is present, or only non-Africanized bees are found (as in southern South America or northern North America).

Africanized honey bees abscond (abandon the hive and any food stores to start over in a new location) more readily than European honey bees. This is not necessarily a severe loss in tropical climates where plants bloom all year but in more temperate climates it can leave the colony with insufficient stores to survive the winter. Thus Africanized bees are expected to be a hazard mostly in the Southern States of the United States, reaching as far north as the Chesapeake Bay in the east. The cold-weather limits of the Africanized bee have driven some professional bee breeders from Southern California into the harsher wintering locales of the northern Sierra Nevada and southern Cascade range. This is a more difficult area in which to prepare bees for early pollination placement, such as is required for the production of almonds. The reduced available winter forage in northern California means that bees must be fed for early spring buildup.

Curiously, their arrival in Central America is a threat to the ancient art of keeping stingless bees in log gums even though they do not interbreed or directly compete with the stingless bees. The honey productivity of the africanized bees so far exceeds the productivity of the native stingless bees that economic pressures force beekeepers to switch. Africanized honey bees are considered an invasive species in many regions.

[edit] Morphology and genetics
The popular term 'Africanized bee' has only limited scientific meaning today because there is no generally accepted fraction of genetic contribution used to establish a cut-off. While the native African bees are smaller, and build smaller comb cells than the European bee, their hybrids are not smaller. They do have slightly shorter wings, which can be reliably recognized only by performing a statistical analysis on micro-measurements of a substantial sample. One problem with this test is that there is also an Egyptian bee, present in the southeastern United States, that has the same morphology. Currently testing techniques have moved away from external measurements to DNA analysis, but this means the test can only be done by a sophisticated laboratory. Molecular diagnostics using the mitochondrial DNA cytochrome b gene can differentiate A. m. scutellata from other A. mellifera lineages [7]

There are two lineages of Africanized bees in the Americas: those which are actual matrilinial descendants of the original escaped queens (carrying African mitochondrial DNA, but partially European nuclear DNA) are in the vast majority, though there is also a much smaller number which have become Africanized through hybridization (thus carrying European mitochondrial DNA, and partially African nuclear DNA). This is supported by DNA analyses performed on the bees as they spread northwards; those that were at the "vanguard" were over 90% African mitochondrial DNA, indicating an unbroken matriline (Smith et al., 1989), but after several years in residence in an area interbreeding with the local European strains, as in Brazil, the overall representation of African mitochondrial DNA drops to some degree. However, these latter hybrid lines (with European mtDNA) do not appear to propagate themselves well or persist.[8]

[edit] Consequences of selection
The chief difference between the European races or subspecies of bees kept by American beekeepers and the Africanized stock is attributable to selective breeding. The most common race used in North America today is the Italian bee, Apis mellifera ligustica, which has been used for several thousand years in some parts of the world and in the Americas since the arrival of the early European colonists. Beekeepers have tended to eliminate the fierce strains, and the entire race of bees has thus been gentled by selective breeding.

In central and southern Africa, bees have had to defend themselves against other aggressive insects, as well as honey badgers, an animal that also will destroy hives if the bees are not sufficiently defensive. In addition, there was formerly no tradition of beekeeping, only bee robbing. When one wanted honey, one would seek out a bee tree and kill the colony, or at least steal its honey. The colony most likely to survive either animal or human attacks was the fiercest one. These hardy bees had to adapt to the hostile environment of sub-saharan Africa – surviving prolonged droughts and fighting for nectar. Thus the African bee has been naturally selected for ferocity.

[edit] Defensiveness
Africanized bees are characterized by greater defensiveness in established hives than European honey bees. They are more likely to attack a perceived threat and, when they do so, attack relentlessly in larger numbers. This aggressively protective behavior has been termed by scientists as hyper-defensive behavior. This defensiveness has earned them the nickname "killer bees," the aptness of which is debated. Over the decades, several deaths in the Americas have been attributed to Africanized bees. The venom of an Africanized bee is no more potent than that of a normal honey bee, but since the former tends to sting in greater numbers, the number of deaths from them are greater than from the European honey bee.[citation needed] However, allergic reaction to bee venom from any bee can kill a person, and it is difficult to estimate how many more people have died due to the presence of Africanized bees.

Most human incidents with Africanized bees occur within two or three years of the bees' arrival and then subside. Beekeepers can greatly reduce this problem by culling the queens of aggressive strains and breeding gentler stock. Beekeepers keep A. m. scutellata in South Africa using common beekeeping practices without excessive problems.

[edit] Fear factor
 
Side view of the africanized honey beeThe Africanized bee is widely feared by the public, a reaction that has been amplified by sensationalist movies and some of the media reports. Stings from Africanized bees kill 1–2 people per year in the United States[9], a rate that makes them more dangerous than venomous snakes, particularly since, unlike snakes, they are found only in a small portion of the country.

As the bee spreads through Florida, a densely populated state, officials worry that public fear may force misguided efforts to combat them.

“ News reports of mass stinging attacks will promote concern and in some cases panic and anxiety, and cause citizens to demand responsible agencies and organizations to take action to help insure their safety. We anticipate increased pressure from the public to ban beekeeping in urban and suburban areas. This action would be counter-productive. Beekeepers maintaining managed colonies of domestic European bees are our best defense against an area becoming saturated with AHB. These managed bees are filling an ecological niche that would soon be occupied by less desirable colonies if it were vacant. ”
  — Florida African Bee Action Plan[10]

[edit] Queen management in Africanized bee areas
In Mexico, where Africanized bees are well established, pollination beekeepers have found that a purchased and pre-bred non-Africanized queen may be used to locally create a first generation of virgin queens that are then bred in an uncontrolled fashion with the local wild Africanized drones. These first generation Africanized queens produce worker bees that are manageable, not exhibiting the intense and massive defense reactions of subsequent generations. This offers a relatively economical method of safe local beekeeping conditions that would otherwise quickly lead to hazardous conditions.[citation needed]

[edit] Impact on existing apiculture
In areas of suitable temperate climate, the survival traits of africanized queens and colonies outperform western honey bee colonies. This competitive edge leads to the dominance of African traits. In Brazil, the africanized hybrids are known as Assassin Bees, for their habit of taking over an existing hive of European bees; this habit is most evident when the hive being attacked has a weakened queen, so not all hives are equally vulnerable, and overall rates of hive usurpation can reach 20%[1].

[edit] Gentle Africanized bees
Not all Africanized hives show overly defensive behavior; some colonies are quiet, which gives a beginning point for beekeepers to breed a gentler stock. This has been done in Brazil, where bee incidents are much less common than they were during the first wave of the Africanized bees' colonization. Now that the Africanized bee has been "re-domesticated", it is considered the bee of choice for beekeeping in Brazil.[citation needed]

[edit] References
^ a b S. S. Schneider, T. Deeby, D. C. Gilley and G. DeGrandi-Hoffman, 2004. Seasonal nest usurpation of European colonies by African swarms in Arizona, USA. Insectes Sociaux 51: 356-364.
^ United States Department of Agriculture, 'Africanized Honey Bees'
^ 'Killer bees' descend on New Orleans
^ 'Africanized bees found in Utah for the first time'
^ Utah Department of Agriculture and Food
^ University of Florida IFAS Extension, 'African Honey Bee: What You Need to Know'
^ Szalanski, A.L., and J.A. McKern. 2007. Multiplex PCR-RFLP diagnostics of the Africanized honey bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae). Sociobiology 50: 939–945. link
^ http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/MG113 (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/MG113)
^ http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2009/apr/21/beekeepers-warn-of-summer-threat/ (http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2009/apr/21/beekeepers-warn-of-summer-threat/)
^ http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/ahbgroup/actionplan.doc (http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/pi/plantinsp/apiary/ahbgroup/actionplan.doc)
Collet, T., Ferreira, K.M., Arias, M.C., Soares, A.E.E. and Del Lama, M.A. (2006). Genetic structure of Africanized honeybee populations (Apis mellifera L.) from Brazil and Uruguay viewed through mitochondrial DNA COI–COII patterns. Heredity 97, 329–335. doi:10.1038/sj.hdy.6800875
Smith, D.R., Taylor, O.R., Brown, W.M. (1989). Neotropical Africanized honey bees have African mitochondrial DNA. Nature 339: 213–215.
[edit] External links
U.S. Department of the Interior, Biological Resources Discipline
Barry Sergeant, keeper of "killer bees"
AFRICANIZED BEES: They are here to stay. See how these bees spread to Florida.
Africanized honey bee on the UF / IFAS Featured Creatures Web site
Texas A&M University Africanized Honey Bee Information Site
CISR: Center for Invasive Species Research Fact Sheet on Africanized Honey Bees
[hide]v • d • eHoney bee types and characteristics
 
Types of bees Queen bee · Worker bee · Laying worker bee · Drone
 
Lifecycle Beehive · Honey bee life cycle · Brood · Bee learning and communication · Swarming
 
Western honey bee subspecies and breeds Buckfast bee · Carniolan honey bee · European dark bee · Italian bee · Maltese honey bee · Africanized bee · Minnesota Hygenic · Apis mellifera scutellata
 
Cultivation Beekeeping · Apiology · Apiary · Beehive · Langstroth hive · Top-bar hive · Beeswax · Honey · Honey extraction · Honey extractor
 
Lists Topics in beekeeping · Honey bee races · Diseases of the honey bee
 

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee"
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 10, 2009, 02:54:53 pm
Quote
As Africanized bees expand into temperate areas, their tropical adaptations are less advantageous. Cold weather seems to limit both their defensiveness and overwintering capacity. Africanized bees are more defensive in warm tropical regions and less so in cooler zones. In South America the bees do not overwinter south of 34 degrees S latitude...
 Keith S. Delaplane-Professor of Entomology-University of Georgia College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences
Africanized Honey Bee, University of Georgia (http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1290.htm)


Quote
Africanized honeybees are descended from stocks that evolved in the tropics and, as such, are ill-equipped to withstand prolonged cold winters. They are believed to be limited to tropical and subtropical habitats.

a study by Abramson et al. (1997) supports the belief that Africanized honeybees are behaviorally and physiologically unsuited to low temperatures. Bees abandoned a hive experimentally maintained at 9°C after 14 days, while survivorship of individual bees exposed to 0°C for 4 hours was low.
Africanized Honey Bee Page (http://www.sms.si.edu/IRLspec/A_m_scutellata.htm)
Smithsonian Marine Station at Fort Pierce

Africanized Honey Bees are able to be re-bred by re-queening them with european stock as South and Central american beekeepers have been doing successfully for some years now.  This is within the "tropical" and "sub-tropical" areas they are most known to show full scale africanized traits.

As they progress to cooler climates, they're unable to cope with cooler temperatures and the lack of foraging during winter months inhibits their ability to successfully maintain food levels sufficient to maintain the colony.

It has also been noted that the actual genetics will change as they progress into cooler climes and the more docile, resource frugal european traits become more dominant.

Africanized honeybees are not something to spread unnecessary fear about.  armed with proper information, being properly prepared, a beekeeper can be successful at managing 'africanized' honey bees.  As to how public areas such as cities where feral africanized bees take up residence, those Central and South american cities have also learned effective practices of dealing with them and public incidents of death or major problem have dropped significantly since the first waves of the africanized stock came through.

As beekeepers or bee handlers in these forums, it behooves us to become better educated and develop practices that will instill confidence to the general public that the presence of africanized honey bees doesn't have to be a low budget horror movie type of drama.

Have you hugged your bees today? heh heh

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 10, 2009, 07:25:38 pm
from what i understand -African Bees do not form winter clusters like Eb's it seams to others and myself that they will be held at about the 30 degree latitude line  ;) we all know honeybees have to cluster to survive cold temps- 8-) RDY-B

If your talking about cluster to cover the brood to keep them at 92degree.I'm sure they do cluster.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 10, 2009, 07:51:00 pm
Quote
As Africanized bees expand into temperate areas, their tropical adaptations are less advantageous. Cold weather seems to limit both their defensiveness and overwintering capacity. Africanized bees are more defensive in warm tropical regions and less so in cooler zones. In South America the bees do not overwinter south of 34 degrees S latitude...
 Keith S. Delaplane-Professor of Entomology-University of Georgia College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences
Africanized Honey Bee, University of Georgia (http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/B1290.htm)



Quote
Africanized honeybees are descended from stocks that evolved in the tropics and, as such, are ill-equipped to withstand prolonged cold winters. They are believed to be limited to tropical and subtropical habitats.

a study by Abramson et al. (1997) supports the belief that Africanized honeybees are behaviorally and physiologically unsuited to low temperatures. Bees abandoned a hive experimentally maintained at 9°C after 14 days, while survivorship of individual bees exposed to 0°C for 4 hours was low.
Africanized Honey Bee Page (http://www.sms.si.edu/IRLspec/A_m_scutellata.htm)
Smithsonian Marine Station at Fort Pierce

Africanized Honey Bees are able to be re-bred by re-queening them with european stock as South and Central american beekeepers have been doing successfully for some years now.  This is within the "tropical" and "sub-tropical" areas they are most known to show full scale africanized traits.

As they progress to cooler climates, they're unable to cope with cooler temperatures and the lack of foraging during winter months inhibits their ability to successfully maintain food levels sufficient to maintain the colony.

It has also been noted that the actual genetics will change as they progress into cooler climes and the more docile, resource frugal european traits become more dominant.

Africanized honeybees are not something to spread unnecessary fear about.  armed with proper information, being properly prepared, a beekeeper can be successful at managing 'africanized' honey bees.  As to how public areas such as cities where feral africanized bees take up residence, those Central and South american cities have also learned effective practices of dealing with them and public incidents of death or major problem have dropped significantly since the first waves of the africanized stock came through.

As beekeepers or bee handlers in these forums, it behooves us to become better educated and develop practices that will instill confidence to the general public that the presence of africanized honey bees doesn't have to be a low budget horror movie type of drama.

Have you hugged your bees today? heh heh

Big Bear


Note the second part of his writing.

Potential Range of Africanized Bees in the United States
As Africanized bees expand into temperate areas, their tropical adaptations are less advantageous. Cold weather seems to limit both their defensiveness and overwintering capacity. Africanized bees are more defensive in warm tropical regions and less so in cooler zones. In South America the bees do not overwinter south of 34 degrees S latitude, which corresponds roughly to Atlanta, Georgia. (Please note, however, that Africanized bees are north of this latitude in the American West.)

In areas where their ranges overlap, African- and European-derived bees interbreed, causing “hybrid zones” where bees share African and European traits. In Argentina, Africanized bees dominate in the northern semitropical regions but European bees dominate in the southern temperate areas; the area in between (ca. 32-34 degrees latitude) is a hybrid zone where bees have varying degrees of African or European traits. A similar pattern may occur in the United States, with African traits dominating in southern regions.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 10, 2009, 08:50:06 pm
and how exactly does that change the fact that we must approach the situation with calm, educated thinking?

Regardless of a buffer zone, there will be a point in which they will not go farther north.  

As to the 'buffer zone' where they overlap, the bees being in a cooler area, certainly cooler than a subtropical area and showing a more mixed genetic range will result in likely less aggressive behavior by those bees.

All in all, still nothing to over respond to.


Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 10, 2009, 10:57:38 pm
I like your approach and attitude Big Bear. Who's to say climates and temps will not change in some areas. We have been breaking temp records recently!
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: sfisher on November 11, 2009, 05:56:00 am
"Mutant Bees"  Will be on the science channel (11/15@10:00pm,11/16@1:00am,11/17@5:00am)

Genetically modied African bees give birth to a more aggressive hybrid strain.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 12, 2009, 03:13:03 pm
and how exactly does that change the fact that we must approach the situation with calm, educated thinking?

Regardless of a buffer zone, there will be a point in which they will not go farther north.  

As to the 'buffer zone' where they overlap, the bees being in a cooler area, certainly cooler than a subtropical area and showing a more mixed genetic range will result in likely less aggressive behavior by those bees.

All in all, still nothing to over respond to.


Big Bear

You never know what genetics they will pick up.Some may pick up the cold genetics and not the aggressiveness or both or the other way around. Genetics can be picked up for three generations. A gentle queen can have some gentle bees and some aggressive or it can change in the next three generations.Anything can change back and fourth.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Jack on November 12, 2009, 06:15:04 pm
Wish I could find some cut and paste material but I can't. I would think it is important to remember that we are for the most part hobbyists here and with common sense and determination have pursued this hobby. Those who would push their implied genetic knowledge upon us might be better served to work it hard on a form for those discussions. Were I to become African bee phobic it might take the fun out of this whole hobby.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 12, 2009, 06:58:34 pm
Thank you sfisher for the heads up  on the "Mutant Bees" on the science channel. That should be interesting.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 13, 2009, 12:16:01 pm
Wish I could find some cut and paste material but I can't. I would think it is important to remember that we are for the most part hobbyists here and with common sense and determination have pursued this hobby. Those who would push their implied genetic knowledge upon us might be better served to work it hard on a form for those discussions. Were I to become African bee phobic it might take the fun out of this whole hobby.

You know Jack,many people all they want to do is,be happy with their hobbies doing their little thing not giving a flip about the down side of things.Not giving a flip about africanized bees the affect it will have with thousands of so called bee keepers keeping millions of bees in cities for green or what ever.Not carring about their neighbors when their bees swarm into their houses and stinging them and killing them. Oh yes then you get into law suits.Phobic,NO,using their brains, yes if they have any.

If you want info. on genetics all you have to do is type honey bee genetics in your search and there you go.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Honey%20Bee%20Genetics&fr=mcsaoffblock (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Honey%20Bee%20Genetics&fr=mcsaoffblock)
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/breeding_genetics.htm (http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/breeding_genetics.htm)

Read,read,read,be happy,happy,happy.Till you get sued.

 :thunder: :fishhit: :camp: :catchchick: :delivery: :piano: :pop:
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 13, 2009, 01:41:48 pm
I don't think anyone is saying not to care about africanized bees, however, significant progress has been made in central and south america that shows over reacting is unwarranted.  Africanized bees can be worked with and even 'calmed down' with appropriate measures.

By all means, be educated, informed and be prepared.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 14, 2009, 11:19:25 pm
Great education! You can never learn enough! I want to be prepared to handle any situation that turns up. Thanks again all.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 15, 2009, 08:20:03 pm
"Mutant Bees"  Will be on the science channel (11/15@10:00pm,11/16@1:00am,11/17@5:00am)

Genetically modied African bees give birth to a more aggressive hybrid strain.

Just reminding everyone to try and watch this tonight or tomarrow. I think this will be along the line of what I'm trying to get people to get a grip on.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Natalie on November 15, 2009, 08:40:23 pm
I am trying to figure out why you are so upset that no one in this thread is getting alarmed.
Trying to stir things up does no one any good, the chicken little the sky is falling mentality does nothing but serve to muddy the real facts surrounding the issue.
How are all these beekeepers going to get sued? Can anyone prove where bees come from?
If I go to the city how should I prove a bee belongs to a particular person?
This is along the lines of worrying about when, where and if another terrorist attack will happen, if the supermarkets will suddenly close, or any other major catastrophe. Who wants to sit and dwell on things like that?
I am with Jack on this, a hobby should be fun and if its not then you should give it up and find something else you enjoy.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 15, 2009, 10:06:01 pm
Quote
I think this will be along the line of what I'm trying to get people to get a grip on.

You cannot be serious.

If you had read even a little bit of the works of Warwick Kerr, the biologist from who the original bees escaped, you have to have read the findings  I mentioned earlier that these bees do not get 'more' aggressive' as they approach cooler climates, but less aggressive.

According to most studies, africanized honey bees maintain predominantly african traits in tropical and subtropical climes.  If there is adaptation as they approach cooler climes, they adapt to the european bee genetics becoming more dominant and those of the african receding.

It appears you are more interested in hyperbole than actual facts.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 15, 2009, 10:09:25 pm
There are two lineages of Africanized bees in the Americas: those which are actual matrilinial descendants of the original escaped queens (carrying African mitochondrial DNA, but partially European nuclear DNA) are in the vast majority, though there is also a much smaller number which have become Africanized through hybridization (thus carrying European mitochondrial DNA, and partially African nuclear DNA). This is supported by DNA analyses performed on the bees as they spread northwards; those that were at the "vanguard" were over 90% African mitochondrial DNA, indicating an unbroken matriline (Smith et al., 1989), but after several years in residence in an area interbreeding with the local European strains, as in Brazil, the overall representation of African mitochondrial DNA drops to some degree. However, these latter hybrid lines (with European mtDNA) do not appear to propagate themselves well or persist.
[edit]    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africanized_bee)


 Offline

Posts: 446



Location: New Waverly,Texas


  
   
Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2009, 07:15:41 AM »
Quote
Quote from: rdy-b on November 08, 2009, 06:09:30 PM
from what i understand -African Bees do not form winter clusters like Eb's it seams to others and myself that they will be held at about the 30 degree latitude line   we all know honeybees have to cluster to survive cold temps-  RDY-B

Where did you get this info. ? I read all kind of info. on the africanized bee and never read that. I'm sure the mixing of the genetics will allow them to adapt to cold anyways.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: fermentedhiker on November 15, 2009, 10:27:08 pm
It actually makes sense that we would see a stabilization of traits by region after enough time has passed for several generations of interbreeding.  All of a given strain or subspecies of honeybee's traits are adapted to it's local or home climate, not just their hot/cold tolerance.  Just my .02c but the reason honeybee subspecies that are found in temperate regions are not known for their aggressiveness (typically) is that they are poorly served by it.  This selective pressure holds true regardless of the subspecies you are introducing artificially.  I know in my area if a hive that responded "en force" to every time some animal went near the hive(most of which aren't a threat to the hive) they would find it difficult to recover with the short foraging season we have and would be outcompeted by hives which showed more discretion in their defense response.  I have sympathy for those beekeepers who live in climates that mean they will have to cope with AHB at some point if they don't already do, but I don't see any reasonable cause to worry about it where I am.

Adam
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 04:19:02 am
I don't think anyone is saying not to care about africanized bees, however, significant progress has been made in central and south america that shows over reacting is unwarranted.  Africanized bees can be worked with and even 'calmed down' with appropriate measures.

By all means, be educated, informed and be prepared.

Big Bear

Who's over reacting ? When you got some jerk in the city with a hive and it gets africanized and they kill the people next door or down the road. Then they turn around and say,OH,you can't prove where the bees come from. I guarantee if you got a hive ,everyone in the neighborhood knows it. I would also bet they can do DNA test and tell what hive they came from. See also,when some jerk has a hive and says,you can't prove where they came from and all they care about is being happy and not even carring if someone is killed or badly hurt.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 04:28:24 am
Quote
I think this will be along the line of what I'm trying to get people to get a grip on.

You cannot be serious.

If you had read even a little bit of the works of Warwick Kerr, the biologist from who the original bees escaped, you have to have read the findings  I mentioned earlier that these bees do not get 'more' aggressive' as they approach cooler climates, but less aggressive.

According to most studies, africanized honey bees maintain predominantly african traits in tropical and subtropical climes.  If there is adaptation as they approach cooler climes, they adapt to the european bee genetics becoming more dominant and those of the african receding.

It appears you are more interested in hyperbole than actual facts.

Big Bear

So,did you watch the program on TV about all the trouble they have in Tucson,Arizona ?
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2009, 08:07:26 am
Tucson. Arizona. Gee, I think the climate is rather hot there for the most part. This gut just won't quit. I think head strong would be the word. As stated before we have our own problems up in the northern climates and AHB is not one nor does it look like they will be migrating our way.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 16, 2009, 09:19:14 am
Joelel, have you heard about the campers who got mauled on a guys property by Grizzly Bears in Colorado?  He doesn't raise Grizzlies, nor are all Grizzlies man eaters.   Does that mean because they were on this guys property the remaining family will sue the guy, even though they were not 'his' bears.

Of course not.

Believe it or not, there were scores more situations than you refer to in Central and South America than we will EVER see here.  However, guess which few and far between stories will show up in the media first?

Yep, your nightmare stories.

If a person is an alert beekeeper and is in an area to have the aggressiveness being displayed, I imagine they should notice it before such nightmare comes to fruition.  And by golly, all it takes is re-queening to put them back in order.  Imagine that.  Disaster Averted.

While the pop media primarily focus on ratings getting sensationalist news, it is up to us responsible beekeepers to pay attention to the actual research and ongoing studies being done just about everywhere africanized bees are.

We can't afford to become the alarmists in the community.  it's our place to be prepared and come to the community's aid when they need it.

Panicking will not help that.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 06:10:43 pm
Let's say,In the spring your queen dies and you don't know it.Then the hive builds a new queen and she crosses with a africanized drone. The queen always takes on the African drones aggressiveness.So from the time the queen dies you have all africanized bees in about 3 month. The africanized bees looks like an Italian bee and you can't tell the difference. The African bee has a high swarm rate,so lets say they swarm a month after they have all africanized bees to your neighbors house. He decides to mow his yard and they attack him and kill him because they attack noises. All in about 4 months,that would be about in July and you don't even know you got africanized bees,and don't even collect your honey until Aug. You do a spring check of your hive and one in two months after they have a new queen but not many of her bees are africanized yet,then after collecting the honey an other check. You don't even know their mean africanized bees until you collect the honey in Aug. and they attack you.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 16, 2009, 06:27:19 pm
Sigh, you win.

let's all run around afright because someday, somehow, someone MIGHT be injured or worse by aggressive bees.

Let's not pay attention to the fact that people have better odds of winning the lottery than being killed by bees.

let's not pay attention that medical science has improved to the point of being able to successfully treat victims before life threatening conditions prevail.

let's not pay attention that more people get attacked by rabid dogs every year than by 'killer bees'

Sorry, I just can't do it.   I am just too compelled by logic and reason to let fear blind me.

I guess I'll just have to make sure  I know what to look for and bee aware.

Good luck on the stampede though.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2009, 06:39:42 pm
Lets pretend your bees migrate to the North Pole and while there some natives think they are flies so they bring them into their heated igloo. When the bees turn on the natives and one becomes very sick they seek out the owners. Sadly you have put an add in the paper so are easily tracked down and then they sue you. Never know.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 16, 2009, 07:03:33 pm
Let's say,In the spring your queen dies and you don't know it.Then the hive builds a new queen and she crosses with a africanized drone. The queen always takes on the African drones aggressiveness.So from the time the queen dies you have all africanized bees in about 3 month. The africanized bees looks like an Italian bee and you can't tell the difference. The African bee has a high swarm rate,so lets say they swarm a month after they have all africanized bees to your neighbors house. He decides to mow his yard and they attack him and kill him because they attack noises. All in about 4 months,that would be about in July and you don't even know you got africanized bees,and don't even collect your honey until Aug. You do a spring check of your hive and one in two months after they have a new queen but not many of her bees are africanized yet,then after collecting the honey an other check. You don't even know their mean africanized bees until you collect the honey in Aug. and they attack you.
the agresive trait is past through miacondrial DNA-which only comes from the mother -thats why we requeen -hopes this makes sense  :lol: once you keep the queen line true -your stocks will follow- ;) RDY-B
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: sarafina on November 16, 2009, 07:55:18 pm
Let's say,In the spring your queen dies and you don't know it.Then the hive builds a new queen and she crosses with a africanized drone. The queen always takes on the African drones aggressiveness.So from the time the queen dies you have all africanized bees in about 3 month. The africanized bees looks like an Italian bee and you can't tell the difference. The African bee has a high swarm rate,so lets say they swarm a month after they have all africanized bees to your neighbors house. He decides to mow his yard and they attack him and kill him because they attack noises. All in about 4 months,that would be about in July and you don't even know you got africanized bees,and don't even collect your honey until Aug. You do a spring check of your hive and one in two months after they have a new queen but not many of her bees are africanized yet,then after collecting the honey an other check. You don't even know their mean africanized bees until you collect the honey in Aug. and they attack you.

Joelel, the scenario you mention can happen to ANY beekeeper in AHB areas - basically the lower third of the US.  It happened to me and I have my bees in the city and re-queened and the hive is gentle now.  Based on your scenario, everybody in AHB areas should destroy their hives IN CASE they might produce bees that could kill someone - that includes YOU, btw.

Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Kathyp on November 16, 2009, 08:08:57 pm
joelel, i read enough of this to give me a headache.  by your way of thinking, and i use "thinking" intending the broadest possible definition, no one should keep bees unless they live at least 3 mile away from any other human.  maybe 5 miles would be safer.  your country swarms are apt to kill livestock, pets, and people, as swarms can travel great distances.  heck, we all should just give it up and buy cuban sugar!

in all of your writing, i fail to see your point.  best i can make out, you  have something against  people in town keeping bees.  you have a right to your opinion, but you could have saved your fingers and just made that simple statement.  all the rest is noise.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 10:00:10 pm
They said on the TV program,a queen that mates with a africanized drone,all her eggs take on the aggressive genetics.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 16, 2009, 10:10:25 pm
 8-) Drones arnt aggressive  :loll: the african queen can lay a infertile egg and propagate a drone -drone is haploid has 1/2 alles as mother with MTDNA-drones have no daddy :roll: just grand dadys-thats the reason drones arnt aggressive -female are diplode-they have both sets of alles- :lol:  RDY-B
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 10:13:09 pm
I love getting you people going,it gives me a charge and some of you fall for it every time. I still think the city is no place to keep bees. You have no respect for people who fear them,then again not many people respect other people anyway.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Jack on November 16, 2009, 10:14:06 pm
I hope that New Waverly keeps their gene pool within the city limits.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 10:19:36 pm
8-) Drones arnt aggressive  :loll: the african queen can lay a infertile egg and propagate a drone -drone is haploid has 1/2 alles as mother with MTDNA-drones have no daddy :roll: just grand dadys-thats the reason drones arnt aggressive -female are diplode-they have both sets of alles- :lol:  RDY-B

What ever,argue with the people who made the TV program.The africanized drones have the aggressive genetics.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Natalie on November 16, 2009, 10:26:05 pm
Okay, so now you have Big Bear hiding under his bed and poor Jack is out in the middle of the street screaming that the sky is falling, I on the other hand remain calm cool and collected :-D
What do you have to gain? What now?
You have succeeded in getting everyone in a panic... and your point would be?
What is it you have accomplished?
Pointless.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 10:26:41 pm
I hope that New Waverly keeps their gene pool within the city limits.

They do,all their bees drink from the gene pool.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 16, 2009, 10:33:49 pm
8-) Drones arnt aggressive  :loll: the african queen can lay a infertile egg and propagate a drone -drone is haploid has 1/2 alles as mother with MTDNA-drones have no daddy :roll: just grand dadys-thats the reason drones arnt aggressive -female are dip-lode-they have both sets of alles- :loll:  RDY-B

What ever,argue with the people who made the TV program.The africanized drones have the aggressive genetics.
BY your way of thinking fertile eggs -that have african drones for the parent are aggressive because the father was african -But what if she lays a infertile egg with no influence from african drone -from what you say it would not be aggressive -because you say aggression comes from the drone-BUT the set of alles came from the mother-because they have no father-its the MTDNA from mom that makes it african--
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 10:48:31 pm
8-) Drones arnt aggressive  :loll: the african queen can lay a infertile egg and propagate a drone -drone is haploid has 1/2 alles as mother with MTDNA-drones have no daddy :roll: just grand dadys-thats the reason drones arnt aggressive -female are dip-lode-they have both sets of alles- :loll:  RDY-B

What ever,argue with the people who made the TV program.The africanized drones have the aggressive genetics.
BY your way of thinking fertile eggs -that have african drones for the parent are aggressive because the father was african -But what if she lays a infertile egg with no influence from african drone -from what you say it would not be aggressive -because you say aggression comes from the drone-BUT the set of alles came from the mother-because they have no father-its the MTDNA from mom that makes it african--

I know they say what you are saying but it's not true.Then why do bee breeders artificial inseminate their queens to keep them of a pure breed ? Ones who don't can't guarantee what kind of bees she will have. I have a hive that the same queen had one breed of bees for a time ,then it changed.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Bee Happy on November 16, 2009, 10:51:09 pm
 :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 11:02:08 pm
 :piano:
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 16, 2009, 11:04:04 pm
The queen mates with SEVREAL drones- many of the workers are not full sisters just half sisters- so even if you start with AI how you going to keep her from taking flight and mating at her will-one thing they all share is moms MTDNA-there are more traights to consider than just agresive behaviour -from the post you have provided we already know that not all african bees are agresive-RDY-B
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: weBEE Jammin on November 16, 2009, 11:05:04 pm
I apologize for bringing this subject up!  I was attempting to learn more about bees.  I lived in Africa from 1965-69 and do not remember seeing any type of bees.  I will continue helping to raise my little ladies, so we will not starve to death.  We depend on bees, so let's help educate others about all the benefits they provide for us.
 :mrgreen:Peace and Love. :bee: :rainbowflower: :jawdrop:
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 11:13:50 pm
The queen mates with SEVREAL drones- many of the workers are not full sisters just half sisters- so even if you start with AI how you going to keep her from taking flight and mating at her will-one thing they all share is moms MTDNA-there are more traights to consider than just agresive behaviour -from the post you have provided we already know that not all african bees are agresive-RDY-B

Right,all will not have as an aggressive behaveyour because they will not pick up as much of the aggressive genetics.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 16, 2009, 11:16:26 pm
The queen mates with SEVREAL drones- many of the workers are not full sisters just half sisters- so even if you start with AI how you going to keep her from taking flight and mating at her will-one thing they all share is moms MTDNA-there are more traights to consider than just agresive behaviour -from the post you have provided we already know that not all african bees are agresive-RDY-B

Right,all will not have as an aggressivebehaveyour  because they will not pick up as much of the aggressive genetics.
  BRAVO sir that wasnt so hard was it  :lol: :lol: 8-)-RDY-B
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: Joelel on November 16, 2009, 11:24:40 pm
The queen mates with SEVREAL drones- many of the workers are not full sisters just half sisters- so even if you start with AI how you going to keep her from taking flight and mating at her will-one thing they all share is moms MTDNA-there are more traights to consider than just agresive behaviour -from the post you have provided we already know that not all african bees are agresive-RDY-B

Right,all will not have as an aggressivebehaveyour  because they will not pick up as much of the aggressive genetics.
  BRAVO sir that wasnt so hard was it  :lol: :lol: 8-)-RDY-B

Right,the key words is ALL,AS,MUCH,all will not as much.
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: rdy-b on November 16, 2009, 11:30:28 pm
thanks for keying us in  :-D  :lol: 8-) RDY-B
Title: Re: Raising Africanized Bees?
Post by: bigbearomaha on November 16, 2009, 11:37:00 pm
Quote
I love getting you people going,it gives me a charge and some of you fall for it every time. I still think the city is no place to keep bees. You have no respect for people who fear them,then again not many people respect other people anyway.

A)  I think if this was just about getting people going, you would have gotten bored well before this point.

B) Some would say cities are the best place to keep bees because of the wider range of nectar and pollen sources.

C) It has nothing to do with 'respect' or no respect for people who fear them, It's not as if we are saying to drag those afraid of bees in front of a hive that is kept.

D) If you think that not many people respect other people,  I am sad for you.   I have much higher expectations and appraisals of the people around me than that.  In my opinion, beekeepers, particularly hobbyist beekeepers, are some of the most considerate people around.

Big Bear