Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: newguy on May 26, 2005, 08:35:01 pm
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you guys are really confusing me now. i actually thought i had a pretty good grip on this thing. why is it that everyting i have read said to use a queen excluder? my beginner kit even had an excluder in it. i thought that without an excluder the honey supers will be half full of brood. can someone please explain this (why and how) in such a way that a newguy can understand, spare no detail. if anyone has had good results WITH an excluder could you please chime in as well?
thanks kevin
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Well, I haven't had good luck with a queen excluder (QE), but I will chime in anyways.
The problem with a queen excluder is that for some reason the bees don't like to pass through it to store the honey above the excluder. This is espeially true if there is only foundation above the excluder, the bees don't want to go through the excluder to draw out the wax.
Most old-timer beekeepers say "The queen excluder is sometime called a Honey excluder".
Now every kit seems to come with QE. I don't know why, but it's most likely the QE makers want to make some money so they sell them. People will buy just about anything andthese are just oen ofthose things that we buy that we don't always need.
Having brood in a honey super is fine, just don't remove the brood. When I encounter brood in a honey super, I leave it alone (all season long - by the end of the season, the brood area shrinks and the cells that were previoulsy filled with brood, will get filled with honey. Then I remove that super.
As with everything in beekeeping there are exceptions:
If the nectar flow is strong and the only place to store honey is above the excluder they will go through it.
If you want to enter your honey in a fair's contest, the QE will help because -- the bees don't store any pollen above the QE - since there is no brood there. So there will be less "other stuff" in your honey.
You could use an upper entrance above the QE. But what I found is that bees will use the entrance they came out of and if they came out of the bottom, they will return to the bottom entrance and then be below the QE!
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Queen excluders are a hinderance to the bees and they don't like them. They have to persuaded to go thru them. Let's face it, if you had to tightly squeeze thru a tiny door to get into a room of your house, you would think twice and really make sure it was worth your while before doing it. Queen excluders work when used right, but there are other ways to accomplish the same thing without them.
Bees will not go thru an excluder to draw foundation in an added super. They will just honey bound the hive below the excluder, reduce nectar collection, and even crowd themselves enough to swarm before drawing foundation above the excluder.
Yes, without an excluder the queen will lay brood in your honey supers. So what, brood is a good thing. She will eventually be pushed back down as the bees fill the recently hatched cells with honey before she can lay in them again. Passing up on the few frames that may have some brood left when you go to extract is more than made up for by the "extra" honey from not using a queen excluder. Unless your trying to make comb honey, brood in the supers is not a big deal. With the new cartridge type comb honey systems, excluders aren't needed anyway.
If you insist on using an excluder, put it on 90 degrees off, so there is a passage in the front and back for the bees to pass. The queen spends most of her time in the center, and most likely will not bypass the excluder. Then again excluders are not 100%, queens have been known to force their way thru.
The only real use that I have for an excluder is when hiving swarms. If you put a queen excluder between the bottom board and the brood box until the queen starts laying, there is less of a chance they will abscond.
Queen excluders are a "good idea" in principle, but most of the time the negatives outweigh the positives.
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Well, Leominister is a faster typer than me :lol: But at least we where saying the same things....
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Great minds think alike. Or maybe we are both crazy.
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an old boy (w/ more experience than most) told me...."she wont bother up thar..." you figure it out
burny
p.s. sometimes its like the forum is an oxy-moron (or i am)because people get good results with a wide variety of opinions/techniques . you see, the bees can do it with out us :wink:
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exactly.
Burny - you went to Lagrant's presentation last year did he cover the excluder with you? He had an interesting theory on excluders. He said that the reason most bees won't use them is because they seem foreign smelling. Beekeepers take them out of the shed and shove them on, and the bees don't like it. So, he says do this:
After your first deep has 7 or so frames drawn add in this order:
1. shallow
2. deep
3. exlcluder
4.inner cover
5. outer cover
Once the shallow has 2 or 3 frames being drawn out, then move the deep down on top of the first deep, move the exluder down on top of that, then put the shallow on top of the exluder.
He claims that this has always worked for him, so what the hell, I'll give it a try.
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You're right burny, there are different ways to keep bees - to an extent. And some people have good results from the things they try, others might not.
I used an excluder in my first hive, just the way the book suggested, and found they wouldn't go through it. Ended up losing 3 weeks of progress for the bees before I took it off. But this year I used an excluder to help divide a super of bees I added to a weaker hive (instead of newspaper). I had the first brood box, then the excluder, then an empty (no frames) box, then a box of fresh frames, then another brood box on that with a top entrance. That worked for me, but I'm not suggesting anyone else do that.
Part of what I like about beekeeping is the experimentations that can be done. It's just like other parts of farm management or livestock care. There are part of it that you don't want to vary from (such as the bee space between frames), and many parts to beekeeping you can experiment with.
Beth
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IMO confining the queen is a bad thing. I want her to lay brood.
IMO restricting access (yes they do have to squeeze through the excluder every trip) to the supers for the workers is a bad thing.
On the other hand, if you want a honey bound brood nest and empty supers, I think a queens excluder is a wonderful tool. ;)
After all. Swarms are VERY exciting.
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Although I gave up using an excluder back when I was running deeps for brood and shallows for supers, I like not using one evey more with all mediums. It's less of an issue to find brood somewhere you didn't really want it when you can just put it where you do want it because all the frames in the hive are interchanbable.
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I have 2 on now. My bees hate them. Some are going past it but they arent drawing out the foundation. I will prob. take them off sometime this week. Didnt someone say it was a training method to keep the queen in the 2 brood boxes? :)
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I never had trouble with bees passing through the QE and drawing foundation. That beeing said, my bees always wanted to swarm and I was cutting swarm cells all early summer up to July in all my hives. It became a real hassle. I'm not going to use QEs this time and see if this helps.
Ron
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I've read some of George Imrie's pink pages where he discusses the concept of baiting. I've also had an old beekeper from the club talk about baiting the bees to entice them up through an excluder.
George recommends when putting on the first honey super of foundation, do not use an excluder. Check in a week. If the bees have begun drawing out the comb, then put the excluder on. This gives the bees a reason to go up. If there is any brood and then you apply the excluder the bees will fill the cells with honey when the bees emerge.
The beekeper from the club actually gave me a medium frame of drawn comb to bait the bees up when I was first starting out. So I had 9 frames of foundation and 1 drawn frame.
In my over wintered hive this year there are lots and lots of bees above the excludeer. There are lots and lots of bees in this hive.
I did run into problems using an excluder with a ross round super. There is another thread about it.
-Rand
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:roll: It’s been my experience that a hive that will not move up
Through a queen extruder and build comb is to week. If you
Are doing cut comb you need to use the queen extruder.
No one wants to eat brood comb. That’s why have them in
A beginners kit they assume you will not have an extractor
And will be doing some kind of cut comb. If you are extracting
It’s up to you. When the honey flow gets going they will
Store honey at the top of the hive and this will force the
queen down to the brood box. I use a queen extruder all
the time and have no problem with them. I try to put at least
one super of drown comb right above the queen extruder.
After it is filed with honey I will either remove it or add a
entrance above the queen extruder at the same time I will
put on more supers. Once you have a super full of honey
above the brood chamber the queen will stay below it. I always
leave the queen extruder on if I have comb supers on. Another
use for it is when I make splits I put it between the brood box’s
and wait a week then I can look for eggs above and below it
it saves time when you are looking for the queen. I have also
used it for introducing new queens I always start them in a nuc
then I find the old queen and put her in the bottom brood box
then I put a queen extruder on top of the box and then a super
and the another queen extruder and another brood box. Then
I combine the nuc onto the top box. After she gets a good brood
Nest going I will remove the old queen and all the queen extruder’s.
this way I don,t have a queenless hive if something gose wrong.
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Part of your rationale, also seems to be that it came with a beginners kit. Frankly there is nothing in a beginners kit that I would buy.
Let's look at a typical list:
Queen excluder- don't use them.
Two deep brood boxes- hate them. I run all mediums. A deep full of honey is 90 pounds.
Two shallow supers- don't use them. I run all mediums. There is only 1" difference between a shallow and a medium and not that much difference in weight. Why not just have one size?
A standard hive tool- gave all mine away. I only use the Italian one from Brushy Mt. A much better hive tool.
Veil- I dont' own one. I mostly use a jacket with a zip on veil. I suppose it would be nice to have one around for visitors etc. but I don't own one.
Small smoker- In smokers bigger is always better. A bigger smoker is easier to light and easier to keep lit. I wouldn't buy and don't own any small smokers.
Solid bottom board- I use only SBB.
Inner cover and telescopic cover- I probably wouldn't throw them away, but I don't buy them. I use migratory covers propped with shims to make a top entrance.
Frames with rite cell or similar 5.4mm size foundation- I only use small cell AND these are always in deep or shallow NIETHER of which I would buy. I have a lot of 5.4mm plastic foundation on a shelf that I don't use as it is.
Gloves- Well gloves are nice, but I usually wear a regular deerskin glove under the elastic arms of my jacket without the gauntlets. Again, I wouldn't throw them away, but I seldom use any of these.
Boardman feeder- Hate them. Too much robbing. I would use the jar and the lid on the inner cover, so I wouldn't throw them away, but an empty mayonaise jar with some holes poked in the lid will do just as well. Again, I woulnd't buy one.
So basically there is NOTHING in the typical beginner's kit that I would buy.
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in my short time beekeeping i too have grown to dislike boardman feeders. i have found that when the sun hits them, (espectially after a cool night) there must be a small pressure increase as the jar warms which causes syrup to be pushed out into the feeder which then runs into the hive. if you watch the jar in the late morning you will see a bubble every few (maybe ten) seconds. then if you lift the jar you will see a puddle.i think this is why i have attracted ants to my hive, im sure they show up anyway be this surely doesn't help. im going to use only my division board feeder which came with my "beginner kit". in which i have found only one dead bee.
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I often use them and have not noticed any difficulties with using them, for me or the bees. Sometimes I don't use them and that is usually when I will find some brood in my comb honey - yuck.
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Well, I put an excluder on my big hive this season and guess what? They packed honey into the brood chamber and my good queen swarmed. I'm so bummed, she was only a year old! And I didn't even equate it with the QE until I read this thread. I'm going to take off the QE now and let the bees just do their thing. I have all mediums so I do have the option of moving the brood below if I need to.
I must have found like 15 to 20 queen cells in that hive, I'm not kidding either. I found the new queen so I'd be sure I had one and I killed almost all the rest. I have a few saved in a jar that I'm tring to give to another beekeper so he can make a slpit from his hives. What a morning!
Any one want to buy three QE's?? Cheap!!
Stacie
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In light of someone elses suggestion earlier on this thread perhaps the reason I have no problems when using QE's is that when I'm not using them I keep them handy by storing them on top of each hive, right under the inner cover.
In observing my nucs with a segment of excluder as a queen includer for the nuc I see the field bees returning laden with nectar and pollen. As they reach the excluder wires they have taken to using the entire surface as a landing zone. They land and no matter how loaded they are they slip right through and continue inside the nuc. It doesn't appear to be anything they must struggle to penetrate. It might be interesting to observe how they treat an excluder if one were used in an observation hive. Has anyone done this?
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Let them start building the comb before placing excluder.If they decide not to go back-spray foundations in a honey super a few times with sugar syrup,that will attract them.Anyway they don't like to go far from the queen /honey super
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I have four hives, four queen excluders, and have never used the excluders once. I have not yet had the problem of the queen laying in the supers until I rearranged the hive configuration :roll: Now Im just working on getting the queen out of the one super. Anyway, another beek here has excluders on all his hives,32 hives, and I can see the difference between my supers and his. He has a lot less comb in his supers.
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I am now up to seven hives, one queen excluder, Discovered last year how to use the Queen excluder correctly and Don't understand why more people don't use them.. Of course I purchased a nice metal excluder, I am sure a plastic one would not work at all. The correct method I have discovered is to lightly spray the excluder with pam cooking oil, then after the smoker is already at temperature you place the excluder on top and put the marinated salmon on top of that. drizzle with honey and then brown sugar. Smoke for about three hours at a low temp. Fish come right off the excluder very nice and nothing sticks to it!!! Using the excluder I place the lid on top of that , It seems to help regulate the temp of the smoker so as not to get too hot. I like to smoke with charcoal and temp control is more dificult. I like my Queen Excluder! Never tried it on one of the hives though?
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Harvey that is hysterical :lau: :lau:
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They're one of those things that needs to be used right. Just like entrance feeders.
Never use a QE with foundation above.
Don't use a QE if you have a super of capped honey above the brood.
DO use a QE if you have a box of comb (that is drawn out ) that you don't want brood in.
Once the queen is laying in a box it is hard to keep her out as the brood is hatching. If you want to swap out a box and it has brood in it, you'll need the excluder. Example, sold a hive to a friend and I want to keep the equipment. So we're trying to get the queen to stop laying in my boxes and build up his. Once his frames are getting drawn out, we put the QE on so she only lays in his boxes.
Another example is a couple of supers that the bees drew out with all large storage/drone cell. The queen will go up and cross 3 boxes of capped honey in the supers to lay drone comb way up there. Grr....that isn't supposed to happen....
Sometimes when retreiving swarms, people will use a QE on the bottom over the entrance so that the swarm doesn't leave-if queenie can't get out the rest will stay.
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( First, Last and Foremost) Try things that are suggested. Then go with what works best for you.
There will be some who disagree with me but most dos and don't s as for as Beekeeping are not written in stone.
Things might be different with the excluder if they were made in different sizes like the foundation is.
I have heard nothing about smaller bees doing better with the excluder than larger bees.
Nothing mysterious about this notion. (Does any one else have larger and smaller bees?).
Saying, I think the excluder was made based on the smaller bee sizes. What you think?
I found out if you take a plastic excluder and trim enough off to leave the space between frames 9 and 10
and 1 and 2 open, same space in front and rear. This also, "works for me".
The outer frames and ends of all are seldom filled with brood. Queen stays more to center.
:)doak
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Kind of leaves one wondering why they were invented at all with so many that dislike using them.
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they have their uses but there are tricks to getting them to work. most people will get better results in backyard beekeeping without them, especially if you are just starting out. no harm in experimenting in their use and some hives do better with them than others. i just find them one more piece of equipment that i have to mess with. i use them for swarms when i remember, and i use them for on occasion for keeping the queen in one box or another when i need to move things around.