Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => HONEYBEE REMOVAL => Topic started by: Meadlover on December 08, 2009, 08:02:54 pm

Title: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 08, 2009, 08:02:54 pm
Unfortunately due to SHB I am down to 1 hive, but thanks to SlickMick he has put me onto a cutout, so hopefully will have 2 hives by Sunday.

I have a few questions in regard to doing this cut out, and being my 1st attempt, and my 1st year as a beek I am a bit nervous.
I have been going through as many threads in the removals section as possible over the last few days but am still a bit hazy on a few things. The hive has been inside a house wall for a month or more. The house is brick outside, gyprock inside. The owner has sprayed the hive but just annoyed them by doing so. He is happy to cut out the gyprock as he is looking at renovating and painting the room soon anyway.

Here is my plan:
1. Inspect the area tomorrow after work. Don't plan to actually do anything.
2. Turn up Saturday morning with all my gear (as much as I have that's on the "cutout equipment list")
3. Smoke all visible entrances
4. Lay down tarp
5. Remove gyprock (owner indicated he may give me a hand)
6. More smoke, leave for a few minutes
7. Brush bees off (or vac off if I get a beevac made by friday night) working from the outside combs in towards the brood comb
9. Cut out brood comb and place in frames with Rubber Bands
10. Remove all remaining comb and honey
11. Let the owner clean the rest up and fix the damage.
Have I missed anything or any major concerns?

Initially my main concerns are not hitting any power inside the wall, then keeping destruction of his house to a minimum. Any hints?

Secondly at this point I visualize that I will have a super of brood, plus a super/box of bees.
What is the best way to handle them now? Move them separately, then combine, or wait till dark, combine, then move them?

Lastly what is the best way to combine them? I am hoping to have vacuumed the bees into a super and have the comb in another super. Should I put the brood box on top of the bee box, bee box on top of brood box, or just pour the bees into the brood box?

Thanks

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 08, 2009, 10:28:08 pm
If you do #7 & #9 properly, there will be NO #10. Remove ALL non-brood comb before removing brood.

Combine on site and let settle til dark.
Just pour the bees into the brood box.

To safely cut into gyprock, first break a hole into it with a hammer. Measure it to see if it's 3/8, 1/2, or 5/8 inch. Set the blade on a razor blade knife at that depth.
Cut the size square you want to remove, pry it out at the edge, and remove it. Continue with other squares.

Your other steps seem to be in order.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: beee farmer on December 08, 2009, 10:35:53 pm
Iddee,
  I use a roto zip tool and set the depth (after checking board thickness) to where all that is left is the inside paper. its a real time and labor saver.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 08, 2009, 11:02:11 pm
When you cut the comb out just keep it orientated to which way is up and put it in the frames as so. With it being in a wall it might take two or three pieces cut up to fill a frame.

A bee vac is a very valuable tool to have, it will keep the bees out of you way and let you work more easily.

A couple of five gallon buckets are very handy for scrap comb, fill one of them with water to rinse the honey off of your gloves or hands.

I find that a long serrated knife works the best for cutting combs, you can kind of "saw" the combs into.

Tell the home owner to use silicone caulk to plug up the holes on the outside.

Take the camera, it is winter on us yanks and want to see some warm weather pics of bees flying ;)

Good luck with it. No need to be nervous you will see it is just like going through a hive, just a little rougher.

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 08, 2009, 11:04:05 pm
beefarmer that roto zip tool sound like a winner to me, I am going to see if I can find one in the pawn shop for cheap.

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 08, 2009, 11:20:14 pm
a roto zip is nice, but a broken bit in the middle of a cut out is a bigger problem than a broken razor blade. Don't ask how I know. Also, some cutouts don't have electricity handy. The handiest high tech tool I have for cutouts is the temperature light.

>>>>Tell the home owner to use silicone caulk to plug up the holes on the outside.<<<<

Double that statement. Common caulk won't work. The next swarm will remove it. It must be silicone.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 08, 2009, 11:50:36 pm
Excellent, some really simple yet great advice I hadn't thought of, thanks guys, really appreciate the help.
iddee - a hammer and a razor blade hey - so simple, I love it. The lower the technology the less there is to go wrong!
Just need to find the cable for my camera to upload my pics to the computer so that I can take a heap of shots of the cutout.

Do you guys think a trip out there a day before just to assess the scenario is neccessary or would some photos from the home owner suffice? The only reason I ask is that the return trip is 70km.

Thanks

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 09, 2009, 07:41:35 am
Most times I alway go and look first, biggest reason is to see what kind of attitude the home owner has, that can somtimes be a deciding factor on whether or not to take the job.

A ratchet strap to hold the new hive together to transport them back home and a six foot ladder.

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 09, 2009, 08:48:21 am
assess the layout, tools needed, bees, neighborhood, and owner, and owner. Did I mention owner?
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: treebee on December 09, 2009, 09:00:49 am
 I use a fein multimaster to get clean cuts on the gyprock,It's a little expensive but well worth the time savings, and now at most big lumber stores there are other brands Dremel and ryobi make cheaper models. I would take a good carpenters pencil and a level to make nice clean cuts as this will make repairs a lot easier on the home owner, and make you look like the professional in the mix. John H
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Kathyp on December 09, 2009, 12:40:39 pm
i use a box cutter and keep some extra blades in the truck.  

if you have time, skim through the tools for cutout section.   it's pretty common sense, but there might be something on there that you had not thought of.  we all tried to put in our "must have" ideas.  
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: lenape13 on December 09, 2009, 12:50:47 pm
Seems like everything is covered.  All I have to say is have fun and enjoy the experience.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 09, 2009, 08:29:39 pm
Thanks again for all the help everyone, appreciate it greatly. Such seemingly tiny bits of information is going to save me alot of time and effort in the near future!

G3 and iddee - you guys were dead on with the advice of sussing out the owner.
I just called him to organise a time this arvo to check out the cut out and things have changed! :-x
Apparantly he is happy to cut into the wall but his wife isn't. Also found out that the hive is behind the wall in the Master Bedroom, which I'm sure would cause problems the night of the removal with a whopping great hole in the wall!

He has suggested I have a look next week, and when he has time to do the repairs (after Christmas) that I should be able to cut it out then once he has the new gyprock on hand, and the time available to do the repair - so I guess if they can put up with it for that long, it might be a nice big strong hive by then! :-D
I will also explain to him the process (as best I understand it) of doing a trap-out, but I won't be doing that for him since a trip there from work adds 70km to my day, and a round trip from home is around 150km (about 100 miles).

Anyhow the upside of this all is I have a manilla folder labelled "CUTOUT" with a list, some photos, and alot of comments from various threads here, so when I'm ready to do this one, or another one I will be much better prepared. I am also half way through building myself a beevac from an old vacuum cleaner, an old super and a microwave door - amazing how quickly a project can happen when you have the motivation and short time frame to complete it!

I guess this weekend I'll be finishing the beevac and making some swarm traps to put around the countyside.

Thanks again everyone, all of this info has sunk in and is just waiting to be used now.........

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Kathyp on December 09, 2009, 08:35:25 pm
if you have the opportunity, you might want to start with an out building.  it's less intimidating to cut into a barn or shed wall, than into a bedroom  :-)

you take them where you find them, but something to keep in mind if you are going to put word out that you are doing cutouts.

don't forget the camera when you get to do one!  we like pictures.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: SlickMick on December 09, 2009, 08:50:11 pm
Good luck with it ML

Mick
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 09, 2009, 09:05:21 pm
I was thinking the same thing Kathy, but as you say you have to take them where you get them, and this is the only one I've been given so far. Ideally my first would be outside, somewhere that no one cares how much stuff is cut or ripped out.

Thanks Slicko, and thanks for passing the call onto me too, lets hope it turns out to be productive in the near future.

I'm wondering how handy an old endoscope and stethoscope might be for cutouts? Might get a chance to find out one day soon.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: John Lee Pettimore on December 09, 2009, 09:20:15 pm
I'm wondering how handy an old endoscope and stethoscope might be for cutouts?

Maybe a portable x-ray machine? That way you could see where they are and irradiate them at the same time.
 8-)
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 09, 2009, 10:48:41 pm
I'm wondering how handy an old endoscope and stethoscope might be for cutouts?

you just might be surprised at what you will locate with it. even a flir camera or ir thermometer.

In the bed room huh, might want to take some plastic sheeting and duct tape to put on the floor. You could even build walls out of the plastic sheeting to help contain the bees in a certain area.

That sounds like some kind of bee vac.

haha bees in the bedroom, could make for an interesting night :shock: :shock:
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 10, 2009, 05:14:24 pm
I'm wondering how handy an old endoscope and stethoscope might be for cutouts?

Maybe a portable x-ray machine? That way you could see where they are and irradiate them at the same time.
 8-)


Hmmmm, intersting idea - I had a mate that used to have a briefcase size x-ray device......maybe that's going a bit far though.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 10, 2009, 05:20:57 pm
I'm wondering how handy an old endoscope and stethoscope might be for cutouts?

you just might be surprised at what you will locate with it. even a flir camera or ir thermometer.

In the bed room huh, might want to take some plastic sheeting and duct tape to put on the floor. You could even build walls out of the plastic sheeting to help contain the bees in a certain area.

That sounds like some kind of bee vac.

haha bees in the bedroom, could make for an interesting night :shock: :shock:

Yeah good idea with the plastic G3. Considering it's in the master bedroom I guess it will either need to be fixed up or sealed off straight away. Sounds like the guy wants to have all the gear ready to go and fix it up straight away, but depending how long it takes me he might have to do it the next day.

The beevac should be an example of recycling - it has given a 2nd life to 5 things all given to me for nix:
an old super,
an old vacuum cleaner,
an old microwave door, and
some old leftover paint.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Sparky on December 10, 2009, 08:52:35 pm
The beevac should be an example of recycling - it has given a 2nd life to 5 things all given to me for nix:
an old super,
an old vacuum cleaner,
an old microwave door, and
some old leftover paint.

Sounds like Johnny Cash is putting this one together. :-D
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: John Lee Pettimore on December 10, 2009, 09:22:09 pm
The beevac should be an example of recycling - it has given a 2nd life to 5 things all given to me for nix:
an old super,
an old vacuum cleaner,
an old microwave door, and
some old leftover paint.

Sounds like Johnny Cash is putting this one together. :-D

Just make sure you either get 2 or zero tail fins...
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 11, 2009, 06:59:15 pm
Well things have changed once again - apparently the guys wife has changed her mind and is ready to move house. He called me this morning telling me how this one bee chased him round the entire yard (must be some killer bee!) and they're now trying to get in through the bathroom exhaust fan!

So I guess I better go outside, finish my beevac, get my gear together and have a crack at doing my 1st cutout........more to follow people......

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 11, 2009, 07:05:05 pm
don't forget the camera, video is better...........that way we can hear you scream like a little girl  :lau: :lau: :devilbanana: :lau: :lau:

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 11, 2009, 07:07:24 pm
don't forget the camera, video is better...........that way we can hear you scream like a little girl  :lau: :lau: :devilbanana: :lau: :lau:

G3

Geez, thanks for the vote of confidence!  :(
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Sparky on December 11, 2009, 07:22:55 pm
Meadlover. It sounds like you have a good enough plan, with or without the bee vac. It would be nice if you had it just in case, but you will learn to improvise real quick even to the most equipped and thought out plans. You will do fine. Experience will just make you more comfortable and confident. Enjoy the experience !! 
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 11, 2009, 08:06:13 pm
Geez, thanks for the vote of confidence!  :(

Just poking a little fun at ya, you will do just fine. A cut out by yourself is a real confidence booster. Take your time and just think it through, everything will fall in place and you will be done before you know it.

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Lone on December 11, 2009, 08:20:04 pm
Onya, ML.  I'm looking forward to hearing the tale.

Quote
a cut out by yourself is a real confidence booster.

I've always found enough friends around at the time who enjoy the experience too.  While it can be difficult if someone else has different ideas on how to do it, there might be times when some extra help is useful.  Maybe you can recruit an offsider.

Lone
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 11, 2009, 08:26:56 pm
don't forget the camera, video is better...........that way we can hear you scream like a little girl  :lau: :lau: :devilbanana: :lau: :lau:

G3

and I'll have you know that I scream like a distinguished lady
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 11, 2009, 08:49:26 pm
and I'll have you know that I scream like a distinguished lady

we will be the judge of that!! :-D

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 11, 2009, 10:23:51 pm
Begin in the AM. It is better to have 8 hours for a 3 hour job than 3 hours and it take 8. A cutout cannot be estimated, time wise.

WISH YOU LUCK!
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Sparky on December 11, 2009, 10:35:11 pm
Onya, ML.  I'm looking forward to hearing the tale.

Quote
a cut out by yourself is a real confidence booster.

I've always found enough friends around at the time who enjoy the experience too.  While it can be difficult if someone else has different ideas on how to do it, there might be times when some extra help is useful.  Maybe you can recruit an offsider.

Lone
You wouldn't be saying this so there are witnesses to hear the girly screams are you ?  :-D :-D
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 12, 2009, 08:36:57 am
Well just got home from the cutout. It's now 10:30pm at night, I'm really tired, dehydrated, bad headache and ready for bed so I'll keep it short and update tomorrow.
Not sure on size as it's my first but would be at least the size of a standard hive. Got 7 or 8 frames of brood held with rubber bands. Copped 3 stings. Franken-beevac seemed to work OK but needs mods. Owner happy and not so scared of bees now. LOTS of dead bees, I think too many dead bees. What would be the average survival rate for a cutout??? Need some advice tomorrow on what to do with all the dead bees. I left it with an empty super on the bottom to give them room to clean out the dead bees, plus the brood on top with 8 frames of brood and 2 of foundation on the outside.
Bed time now, got some good photos for tomorrow after I sleep in, then work out how to post photos.

Worried about all the dead bees, and hope the queen is in there somewhere.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Lone on December 12, 2009, 09:53:27 am
Quote
Need some advice tomorrow on what to do with all the dead bees

ML, I can see you really are zonked and knackered.  Do you really want to know how to give them a proper burial?  All I can say is, maybe you should play Flight of the Bumblebee for them.

Anyhow, well done on escaping with only 3 stings and a couple of loud hollers.

Lone
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 12, 2009, 07:45:18 pm
Thanks Lone. Now that I've had some sleep and rehydrated I guess I should explain things a bit better.
I think either my beevac design is flawed or I left them in there too long or some other technique I was using was incorrect as there were so many dead bees. When I tipped the bees onto the frames of brood it was a big ball, but not a very lively ball - it looked like 75% weren't moving at all  :'(

Since so many were dead I wasn't sure what to do with my ball of partly live partly dead bees, so thought I should leave them in the hive, so I put an empty super on the bottom, a super with the brood frames on top of that, then the lid. My line of thinking was that if I didn't put the empty super on the bottom the hive entrance would be too congested, or blocked, and hopefully the live ones would get out of the ball, and the dead ones would start to be hauled out by the live bees once they got back into their cleaning routine. My concern ATM is that there are probably too many dead bees for the remaining live ones to clean up.
This is why I'm not sure what I should have done with the ball of bees last night, or infact today either? :?

I guess I will trawl over cut-out and beevac threads over the next week or so and work out what I did right and what I did wrong.
I'm just hoping that firstly I got the queen, and secondly that she is still alive and stays on the brood combs.

I certainly learned a few things that I would do differently next time (if I do another cutout). 2 Beeks would certainly have made things faster and easier.
Anyhow time for some bacon and eggs for brecky, then I'll work out how to post pics.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 13, 2009, 12:52:34 am
Sounds like you learned quite a bit on the cut out, that is a good thing. The dead bees could have been caused from several things, bees gotoo hot in the vac, vac sucking too hard and tumbled the bees to death, honey soaked bees will stick together and sort of drown and/or over heat. I made a bee vac on the robo design and it works great for me. Look up bushkill bee vac.

I do so hope they make it for you and three stings is just about right.

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 13, 2009, 12:55:37 am
Thanks G3

well plans for today have changed again.
I put my name on the DPI swarm list on friday and got a call today from someone about 5km away so I am going to check it out, then checkout my cutout hive.
This swarm moved in 2 days ago so I need to read up on options for removing it. The owner didn't sound keen to keep a hive there AKA trapout, or cut holes in the wall AKA cutout, so it may end up being a job for a pest guy??? Any other ideas on saving the bees??

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: G3farms on December 13, 2009, 02:46:45 am
If the swarm just moved in two days ago a trap out will not take long since they do not have much comb drawn out and brood started.

G3
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 13, 2009, 11:04:38 am
A trap out will work in a couple of days if they just moved in. They have no food and will leave quickly. The queen will likely not go in the trap box, so you need to have the owner watching. She will land on a nearby tree or bush, a a normal swarm. You can then drop them into the hive as you would a swarm.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Sparky on December 13, 2009, 01:43:47 pm
  I think either my beevac design is flawed or I left them in there too long or some other technique I was using was incorrect as there were so many dead bees.
Meadlover. You don't think the vent to the vac was not open enough and made the vac to strong, slaming them around to much, do you ?
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: JP on December 13, 2009, 03:10:13 pm
Sometimes bees will ingest a bunch of honey if the hive is full up with honey. The bees may then regurgitate in the inner box and you're left with a sticky mess of mostly dead bees. Sometimes its better using the vac sparingly if at all.

You may have not done anything wrong, but perhaps over used the vac.


...JP
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 13, 2009, 07:37:46 pm
The dead bees could have been caused from several things, bees gotoo hot in the vac, vac sucking too hard and tumbled the bees to death, honey soaked bees will stick together and sort of drown and/or over heat.

G3

Meadlover. You don't think the vent to the vac was not open enough and made the vac to strong, slaming them around to much, do you ?

I think I had a combination of all 3 things working against me - overheating, excessive suction and drowning.
I need to re-read over some beevac threads and websites and redesign mine.
I think the overheating was probably the main killer. Might put a window of mesh in one side with a slide cover so that I can give them some water, as well as give them some more ventilation.
Soooooo much to learn........

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Lone on December 13, 2009, 10:49:43 pm
ML,

I've only been involved in tree cutouts, not bedrooms, and I've never even thought about using a bee vac.  But if I did..I would probably try to vac up a couple of bees and see if they survive, before vaccing a whole colony.  Usually we have scooped, brushed or tipped the majority of bees into a super, and if the rest of the bees go into the super, then we are sure we have the queen.  I suppose if you were quick and bees hadn't moved out of the combs, you could try and put the brood combs in the super, and there would be a fair chance of getting the queen.  We stay until dark, take the super home, then sort out the frames the next day.  But with trees, you don't have the difficulty of dark recesses, working above your head, and live electric wires.
My advice would be to clean the house with the bee vac and if your girlfriend thinks it's spotless, then you probably have the suction up too high.
Well, I'm looking forward to your next tale with the swarm.
Lone
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 13, 2009, 10:53:04 pm
a trap out will work in a couple of days if they just moved in. They have no food and will leave quickly. The queen will likely not go in the trap box, so you need to have the owner watching. She will land on a nearby tree or bush, a a normal swarm. You can then drop them into the hive as you would a swarm.

Sounds good iddee, but with only 1 hive (which I recently took 2 frames from to make a nuc) I think it would really weaken it to remove a frame of brood with eggs. Not sure I want to risk my only hive at this stage.
Maybe I'll try a trapout with a frame or 2 of old dark comb & lemongrass oil, and just see if that attracts some in there?

The owners still haven't made up their mind on what to do yet, but if they call me today I will drop in on my way home to check out the situation. I believe the wall is in a large living area, so maybe not the best to do a cutout in?
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 13, 2009, 10:59:37 pm
Sometimes bees will ingest a bunch of honey if the hive is full up with honey. The bees may then regurgitate in the inner box and you're left with a sticky mess of mostly dead bees. Sometimes its better using the vac sparingly if at all.

You may have not done anything wrong, but perhaps over used the vac.


...JP
There was a large mass of sticky dead bees in the hive yesterday so you might be right there JP.
I guess I can treat it as a learning experience and remember what I did wrong next time.

Next is to add a mesh screen on top of the vac, and a slide in-out board to seal off when vacuuming I think.
Might pick up a sheet of Polycarbonate this week so I have a window to see them through next time.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 13, 2009, 11:07:15 pm
Here's something I have been thinking about - options for the future of my cutout hive.

1. Queen is alive - leave in box or transfer to nuc box if really weak.
2. Queenless - they start making queen cells. They raise a queen. Leave in box or transfer to nuc.
3. Queenless - they start making queens cells but no eggs or young larvae. Cut a small piece of comb from my main hive containing eggs (a piece around 1" x 2" large).
4. Queenless - they start making queens cells but no eggs or young larvae. Transfer to main hive to boost numbers slightly.

In option 3 will they move the eggs/larvae into the queen cells? Will they turn those eggs into queen cells or will they just leave them there?

Thanks

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: SlickMick on December 14, 2009, 12:46:26 am
So what is the status of your cutout  now Mat?

Have you got enough bees to look after the brood comb or did you lose them also?

I hope that you ended up with something for all your efforts

Mick
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: JP on December 14, 2009, 12:57:24 am
ML, you actually have another option on this colony that just moved in. If you infiltrate the void space with something like beequick (the one I would recommend) from the backside of the void space, you could get them to leave on their own. This would essentially be a forced trap out, not necessarily requiring the catch box to contain eggs/brood. They are more inclined to leave especially so if there is little or no brood in the void space now.

BTW, I have done this very thing I have suggested on a few very young colonies. I joust them out and induce a swarm. I did one this past season, set up a swarm trap and after the swarm was evicted from a brick exterior/sheet rock interior wall, they went into the trap, along with the queen.


...JP
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 14, 2009, 08:11:16 am
So what is the status of your cutout  now?

Have you got enough bees to look after the brood comb or did you lose them also?

I hope that you ended up with something for all your efforts

Mick

Mick,

I ended up with I think 5-6 frames of brood, 2 of honey, then put 2 foundation in there too.
In comparison to a strong hive with 10 frames in it, this cutout hive is certainly low on numbers. When I was cutting out the hive I saw a couple of SHB so that is my main concern ATM, that there won't be enough bees to protect the brood from the SHB.
I will be going out to the hive on Friday so will see how it is going then. If it looks bad, I will transfer as much brood as possible to my other hive, and add all the bees to try to boost it's number a bit. If it's looking OK I will try to add some eggs from my main hive so they can raise a queen of their own.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 14, 2009, 08:28:33 am
ML, you actually have another option on this colony that just moved in. If you infiltrate the void space with something like beequick (the one I would recommend) from the backside of the void space, you could get them to leave on their own. This would essentially be a forced trap out, not necessarily requiring the catch box to contain eggs/brood. They are more inclined to leave especially so if there is little or no brood in the void space now.

BTW, I have done this very thing I have suggested on a few very young colonies. I joust them out and induce a swarm. I did one this past season, set up a swarm trap and after the swarm was evicted from a brick exterior/sheet rock interior wall, they went into the trap, along with the queen.


...JP

Thanks JP, sounds like a nice quick easy option with a quick result, but unfortunately I don't think that stuff is available in Australia :(
Is there anything else that would repel them and make them swarm? A crapload of smoke as Lone suggested maybe??

I didn't hear back today from the 2nd call I got, maybe they are still deciding what to do. Would love to haver a crack at that hive too though.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 14, 2009, 08:47:51 am
Here's some photos of my 1st cutout that I did on the weekend. As iddee suggested I left myself the whole day, and it took a whole day. From when I turned up to when I left was 8 hours. I'm sure every one I do from now on I will get quicker, more efficient, and kill less bees (I hope  :oops:).
Anyhow I haven't really used ImagShack before so I hope I've added these photos properly.

ML


(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/460/cutout1entrance.th.png) (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/cutout1entrance.png/)

(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/412/cutout2beevacgear.th.png) (http://img192.imageshack.us/i/cutout2beevacgear.png/)

(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4291/cutout31stcut.th.png) (http://img267.imageshack.us/i/cutout31stcut.png/)

(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5265/cutout42ndcut.th.png) (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/cutout42ndcut.png/)

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1740/cutout5backofplasterboa.th.jpg) (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/cutout5backofplasterboa.jpg/)

(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2008/cutout7entirehiveexpose.th.png) (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/cutout7entirehiveexpose.png/)

(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7849/cutout8removingcombfrom.th.jpg) (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/cutout8removingcombfrom.jpg/)

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9126/cutout9cuttingbroodtosi.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/cutout9cuttingbroodtosi.png/)

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8329/cutout10perfectsizedbro.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/cutout10perfectsizedbro.png/)

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6585/cutout11cuttingbroodtof.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/cutout11cuttingbroodtof.png/)

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/224/cutout12reversespaceinv.th.jpg) (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/cutout12reversespaceinv.jpg/)

(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/96/cutout13beevacofdeath.th.jpg) (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/cutout13beevacofdeath.jpg/)

(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6391/cutout14beevacaintkind.th.png) (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/cutout14beevacaintkind.png/)

(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2575/cutout15poorbastards.th.jpg) (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/cutout15poorbastards.jpg/)

Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 14, 2009, 09:55:27 am
On the swarm..... Trap out into the removal hive. Let them sort out the queen problem.

PS. The SHB will have them dead by Friday. You need to get back before that. Like NOW!!!

We need a photo of the vacuum.

Go here, http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/BEE%20VAC/ (http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/BEE%20VAC/) and to Robo's site, and build one like one of them. They are the two best there are.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 14, 2009, 05:28:53 pm
We need a photo of the vacuum.

Go here,  http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/BEE%20VAC/, (http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/BEE%20VAC/,)  and to Robo's site, and build one like one of them. They are the two best there are.
Iddee, that link didn't work for me, but I have checked out Robbo's design and that will be version 2 for me. I like it as it has a much larger surface area for the baffle (hardware cloth) than the one I made, plus it sucks them straight into their new hive, plus the additional ventilation after catching them. Just need to find somewhere to get harware cloth at a decent price in Brisbane.......

I'll try to remember to take a photo of my frankenbeevac tonight.

PS. The SHB will have them dead by Friday. You need to get back before that. Like NOW!!!
Bugger, sounds like I should have put the brood and bees into my other hive to strengthen them rather than leaving them in an entire 10 frame box. The problem I have now it that I don't have another nuc box, although I got half way through building one last night. I am worried if I put the brood into my other hive it may already have SHB eggs in it and destroy my main hive.
Should I right off all the brood comb from the cutout and just shake the bees into my main hive??? Seems like such a terrible waste of good brood comb.

ML

Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 14, 2009, 06:46:08 pm
I modified the link. It seems to be working now.

I wouldn't combine them. I would just bring them home where I could monitor them daily and maybe use an SHB trap, or remove SHB larva and eggs.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 14, 2009, 08:11:59 pm
I modified the link. It seems to be working now.

I wouldn't combine them. I would just bring them home where I could monitor them daily and maybe use an SHB trap, or remove SHB larva and eggs.

I built my beevac using yours as an example, will see what you think when I post some pics later.

The hive that I put the cutout into has a SHB trap in the base, maybe not the best design, but better than nothing.
Might pop out to the hive tonight, bring it back and keep it at my house........somewhere. That's probably what I should have done on the weekend. Geez by the time I do all these trips to and from the 'beeyard' I could have just bought a healthy new nuc. Ah well, it's all a learning curve I guess.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Kathyp on December 14, 2009, 09:19:19 pm
you can shake a frame of workers from your strong hive, into your cutout hive.  just make sure you don't shake your queen in  :-)

i don't use a vac.  haven't gotten around to making one yet.  i would think that it would be most useful in picking up the leftover clumps of bees after you are done cutting out the hive.  i don't know if that's how others use them, but i would not clear the hive with one.  most of the time i can get the brood comb out with many bees on it, and fit it into the hive.  that way i get at least enough to cover the brood....and most of the time the queen is there also.  once she is in, a lot of those flying bees will settle on her/your box, and that's when i would want the vac.   there are always stubborn clumps of bees that don't want to go in :-)

you will find your own way of doing things and there is no way except to do them.  from your pics, it looks like you are off to a good start.  

BTW...looks like a lot of brood.  hope you got the queen. 
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Sparky on December 14, 2009, 09:22:42 pm
Meadlover. Well documented with all of the great pictures, :lol:  except for the last one. :'(
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Lone on December 15, 2009, 07:51:58 am
Fantastic photos, ML.  It was almost like being there.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 15, 2009, 12:08:28 pm
I think you missed this in the 1st reply.

>>>>Combine on site and let settle til dark.
Just pour the bees into the brood box.<<<<

Also, mine has 4 35mm screened holes, 2 on each side, and a 2 3/4 inch hole in the end. I duct tape the holes closed while using, and remove one piece at a time to reduce vacuum until they come in gently. Then remove them all as soon as I'm finished. Then I combine them ASAP.

I can also remove the bottom and set it on the hive, to draw them straight onto the frames. It works both ways.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 15, 2009, 05:33:06 pm
PS. The SHB will have them dead by Friday. You need to get back before that. Like NOW!!!

We need a photo of the vacuum.
You were right about the SHB iddee - dam they are quick to over run a hive! I took out 2 heavily infested frames (1 mainly empty comb with a little brood and honey, the 2nd a full comb of brood), wrapped them in newspaper and put in the freezer to kill everything. The other frames looked OK but I guess I will find out by the end of the week just how bad they are.
I reduced the entrance to <1/3 and also added a ziplock bag of 5:3 sugar water.

Didn't get a chance for the photo of frankenvac, was a late night by the time I had the hive sorted. Will get a photo up soon though.

you can shake a frame of workers from your strong hive, into your cutout hive.  just make sure you don't shake your queen in  :-)
Kathy, my main hive isn't very strong, it's good, but not strong. The reason being is that I have already used a frame of brood and bees, plus shook off a frame of bees a few months back to boost a hive (post SHB infestation), and about 2 weeks ago I took 2 frames out to make a nuc hive (bought a mated queen for the nuc). Really don't think I should do anything more to weaken that hive this season (there's not a great amount of nectar or pollen coming in as it's so dry here at the moment).

Meadlover. Well documented with all of the great pictures, :lol:  except for the last one. :'(
Yeah I'm not very happy about the end result, but maybe someone can learn something from my mistakes  :'(

I think you missed this in the 1st reply.

>>>>Combine on site and let settle til dark.
Just pour the bees into the brood box.<<<<
No I got that one iddee, did I misinterpret something or do it wrong? - I vac'd them up, put brood comb into the frames and into the brood box, then poured them on top of the brood - see my 2nd last photo. (I do believe that they sat in the vac for way too long and overheated though)


ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 16, 2009, 07:49:15 am

We need a photo of the vacuum.

OK here's a photo of the vacuum.
I think the mesh probably doesn't have enough surface area of holes, therefore probably excessive force was on the bees.
I think I really need to find a supplier in Brisbane of "hardware cloth".

ML

(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/139/frankenvacinterior.th.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/frankenvacinterior.jpg/)
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4913/frankenvactobees.th.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/frankenvactobees.jpg/)
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1777/frankenvactovacuum.th.jpg) (http://img684.imageshack.us/i/frankenvactovacuum.jpg/)
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 16, 2009, 07:55:31 am
As soon as I got home this arvo I fired up the smoker and inspected the cutout hive.
Unfortunately there was quite a lot of SHB larvae in there - I removed the bottom board and hosed the larvae into a bucket. I also removed as much as possible of the beetle and larvae (took out a frame of mostly drawn comb, and a frame of infected brood) but I fear that the hive may have got to a point where they are doomed - but I will persist for as long as possible.

 :'(

Haven't heard back from the couple that just had a hive setup in their wall either. Guess I'll wait for the next swarm/trapout/cutout call...........

ML

Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: SlickMick on December 16, 2009, 08:03:01 am
That's bad luck about the SHB Mat, you must have a swag of it down there.

You probably need to go into the hive daily to flush out what beetle and larva you find.. get the honey frames into the freezer for a day or so. You may have to shake bees off individual frames and then hose out the larva into water and detergent

Hope you save the hive but its looking pretty grim. Are the larva into the brood frames too? Keep an eye on that nuc too

If there is anything I can help out with let me know

Mick
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 16, 2009, 08:14:31 am
Yeah the Larvae are into the brood frames  :-x I think there's not enough bees, no queen, and too many SHB.
I removed EVERY SHB that I found, and as many of the larvae that I could see.
It has been a learning experience at least, to see how quickly, and how the SHB move through the hive.

I think I will be going to a full mesh base on my hives as the SHB traps in there at the moment could work alot better. Gotta find somewhere to get "hardware cloth" now though.
Another project goes onto the list.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Lone on December 16, 2009, 08:27:43 am
Ain't that nice of Slicko, hey, throwing you in it and not going out to help?  :)  ML, maybe next time, take the hive home with you the night of the cutout.  Don't cry, though, I'm sure bees are a dime a dozen in brizzy.  Why don't you chuck those bees and salvagable brood in with your other hive?  There will be more bees to protect the brood from the beetles. I'm using honey from a couple of cutouts now to feed back to them.  What is hardware cloth, and what is it for?

Hey and don't forget Slicko offered to help with anything - I'd put him on a couple of your projects.  hehehe

Lone
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 16, 2009, 09:31:38 pm
What is hardware cloth, and what is it for?

Lone
Lone,

hardware cloth is basically heavy duty flywire, but you can get it in other sizes and materials - Brass, Stainless Steel, Galvanised etc.
I found someone near me http://www.metalmesh.com.au/cfm/index.cfm?newLocation=cfm/home.cfm (http://www.metalmesh.com.au/cfm/index.cfm?newLocation=cfm/home.cfm) that has a Stainless Steel mesh with a 3.3mm aperture for $81/m +GST. I know this sounds expensive but it comes from a 1220mm roll so 550mm will give me 3 sheets that will fit 3 x 10 frame hives, which works out at $49 for 3 pieces, so $16 a pop.
I'm planning to use it in my next beevac, plus also to make a bottom trap for SHB as the holes are big enough to let the SHB fall through into a tray of cooking oil underneath - like this design http://www.greenbeehives.com/ (http://www.greenbeehives.com/)
So far that is the best looking trap I have seen, in theory. Would be interested to get feedback from those that use that type and their pros and cons. Need to do a bit more searching this arvo I think.

ML
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: D Coates on December 17, 2009, 11:27:37 am
Unfortunately by the time the larva are dropping through the bottom the damage is done.  I'd focus more on trapping the adults and keeping hive streingth up.  I've learned quite a bit from your post, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 17, 2009, 07:48:58 pm
Why use a bee vac??


This photo is:

(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/16.jpg)

The same place as this photo.

(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/15.jpg)

Would you want to do it without a vac to remove a few bees first?



.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Kathyp on December 17, 2009, 07:56:06 pm
i probably would, but then, i wouldn't have all that exposed skin out there!   :evil:

that's pretty new comb. did you just skip it and hive them like a swarm?
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: iddee on December 17, 2009, 08:09:54 pm
Yes, I just laid it on the frames until The bees had all found the queen, then disposed of it. It didn't have enough body to be manipulated. It would crush itself under it's own weight just laying in your hand.
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: JP on December 17, 2009, 09:44:37 pm
Meadlover, put this in the back of your head if you're ever in this situation again. If you set up a new cut out colony and are inundated with shb, check them for a queen. If you still have one, 86 all comb or freeze it for later & set the bees up on fresh foundation or drawn comb. Its best if you remove all shbs & begin again as though they were a swarm. Without brood, a queen, feed & enough bees to tend to matters, you can reverse things and save that colony, but you must have enough bees and a queen to give it a go.

Welcome to the wonderful world of bee removal!


...JP
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Grandma_DOG on December 18, 2009, 04:51:22 pm
That's pretty drastic, JP. What if you have several frames of brood from a cutout? If I freeze this, I'm losing many beemonths of effort to raise that brood. WOuldn't it be better to swap the frames in a strong colony and take good colony frames and put them in the cutout hive?

Meadlover, put this in the back of your head if you're ever in this situation again. If you set up a new cut out colony and are inundated with shb, check them for a queen. If you still have one, 86 all comb or freeze it for later & set the bees up on fresh foundation or drawn comb. Its best if you remove all shbs & begin again as though they were a swarm. Without brood, a queen, feed & enough bees to tend to matters, you can reverse things and save that colony, but you must have enough bees and a queen to give it a go.

Welcome to the wonderful world of bee removal!


...JP
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: JP on December 18, 2009, 08:03:07 pm
That's pretty drastic, JP. What if you have several frames of brood from a cutout? If I freeze this, I'm losing many beemonths of effort to raise that brood. Wouldn't it be better to swap the frames in a strong colony and take good colony frames and put them in the cutout hive?

Once shb show up in a weak hive they work with extreme fervor. The end result occurs within a day & 1/2 time frame. If something drastic isn't done, you lose the colony.


...JP
Title: Re: 1st year Beek, 1st cutout this weekend....
Post by: Meadlover on December 19, 2009, 05:55:12 pm
Meadlover, put this in the back of your head if you're ever in this situation again. If you set up a new cut out colony and are inundated with shb, check them for a queen. If you still have one, 86 all comb or freeze it for later & set the bees up on fresh foundation or drawn comb. Its best if you remove all shbs & begin again as though they were a swarm. Without brood, a queen, feed & enough bees to tend to matters, you can reverse things and save that colony, but you must have enough bees and a queen to give it a go.

Welcome to the wonderful world of bee removal!


...JP
If I had the queen in there I think that your suggestion would have been the best approach. By trying to save a few too many brood frames I have lost the entire brood to SHB and probably all the bees too.

And thanks for the welcome JP, I'm looking forward to my next removal :-)

ML