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Author Topic: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene  (Read 8882 times)

Offline blanc

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Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« on: May 22, 2013, 09:51:33 am »
 While inspecting one of my nucs this week I noticed a lot of partially uncapped brood cells and going to the info on the internet I came across VSH info and was surprised to discover that they have been breeding these traits in bees to combat mites and other diseases in bees without affecting honey production. My hive has all the characteristics of it and my be a plus if I can raise some queens and re queen all my other hives.

Blanc
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Psalm 19:9-10
The fear of the Lord is clean,enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea ,than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Offline 10framer

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 10:11:08 am »
what was the condition of the partially uncapped brood?  chewed, brown, sunken caps is also a sign of afb. 
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Offline AllenF

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 10:24:11 am »
Just how many or what percentage of the cells are uncapped?   Throw up a pic or two of the brood. 
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Offline blanc

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 11:38:16 am »
No sunken and appeared reopened brood and brood pattern looked fine from first look and was about 15 % open. That is what led me to search for answers. Will try for pics when weather permits for next inspection. Pictures that I saw are similar to VSH as they will open and pull larva from affected areas. Plausible ?
I am not that qualified to say so thanks for all your input.
Blanc
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Psalm 19:9-10
The fear of the Lord is clean,enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea ,than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 01:20:17 pm »
Blanc.
That's why I am a treatment free apiary.  If I don't treat and let all hives live or die on their own then the only thing left will be the ones that resist the mites and other cooties that kill them.

I'm assuming the nuc in question is from me.
And yes.  Breed queens from them as the trait does seem to be passed on.

Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline Finski

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2013, 06:29:57 pm »
.
Anti varroa hygienic hives make clearly lower honey yields. -50% is typical number.
Bees kill infectected brood and that is whycolony is smaller than chemically treated.

If facts are not so, why so few use varroa tolerant bees?

Advertising is strong on this are and promises more than give.

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Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 06:47:14 pm »
Really fin?   
I get 150 to 200 lbs of honey per good hive each summer.  And almost as much in fall. 
Guess I could do better with non resistant bees.
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline blanc

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 07:00:44 pm »
Quote from: bailey on May 22, 2013, 01:20:17 pm
Blanc.
That's why I am a treatment free apiary.  If I don't treat and let all hives live or die on their own then the only thing left will be the ones that resist the mites and other cooties that kill them.

I'm assuming the nuc in question is from me.
And yes.  Breed queens from them as the trait does seem to be passed on.

Bailey
All indications is the honey yeilds are high from these bees so I will raise some queens from them. I noticed the only hive I have from the nucs that is slow building is the one for my buddy with screened bottom. Just an observation I made watching them other than that doing fine.
Blanc
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Psalm 19:9-10
The fear of the Lord is clean,enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea ,than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 08:16:06 pm »
With the recent cool periods I would expect thet with a screened bottom
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline melliferal

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 09:37:23 pm »
I imagine that some VSH might well be less productive to start with.  But, allow them to join the larger breeding population and some good things may happen.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 03:18:19 am »
Quote from: bailey on May 22, 2013, 06:47:14 pm
Really fin?  
I get 150 to 200 lbs of honey per good hive each summer.  And almost as much in fall.  
Guess I could do better with non resistant bees.
Bailey

read researches.

If treatment free bees are as good,
- why USA has big problems with varroa?
-  why Canada has not at all varroa tolerant bee strains?

80% of beekeepers in Canada are professionals. Why they do not use them

many in France say that they have treatment free bees. It 2 y old research and it said that yield  is 50% smaller.

Russian bee was tested long time ago in Europe and result was that it is not varroa tolerant and its  yield is poor.

There are fresh conclusions from Europe that varroa tolerant strains have poor yield because colonies are small.

 Information about these things is very confusing. Individual beekeepers say that  it is fine but university reseach is oddly quiet. What is that?

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« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 07:05:15 am by Finski »
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Offline Nature Coast Beek

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 07:50:43 am »
Good explanation of VSH trait.
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Offline Arkwood

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 09:59:38 am »
Money is 99.5 % (My statistic from being on this Earth for 40 years) why things get done or don't get done. I would love to order a VSH Queen from a company I see on the Internet but for $225.00 I can see why not many are willing to move towards an ALL VSH Apiary so fast and on the other hand, how many people are willing to lose thousands of hives like Bee Weaver did (According to their website)?

I'm sure man can find a way to breed a VSH strain that also keeps up with honey production, time and money.

Just my 2 cents. I could be way off in my thinking.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:20:27 am by Arkwood »
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Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 02:01:43 pm »
All I know is that my bees do well without chem treatments
And produce more honey than the store bought bees that
Work in this area. 

Finn. 
Can't speak for Europe or Canada or any other place
You mentioned and be accurate.  ( since I'm not there)

Somehow I don't think the info from other countries
And colder climates will translate to my area.   
But since I'm not a pro like some others I will take my
Little treatment free bees and work them as I know how.

All that us unknowing beeks can do.  ;)
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline JWChesnut

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 03:49:56 pm »
Bailey,
Thanks for the breeding efforts.
I read the Baton Rouge Experiment station report,
http://www.extension.org/pages/30984/selecting-for-varroa-sensitive-hygiene

I note they have a simple protocol of introducing a 1/2 frame of young capped brood that is highly infested, waiting 24 hours and counting the number of cells that have been opened to evaluate strength of the VSH response in a colony.

Have you tried that to estimate VSH value, or is it a live-and-let-die trial.

I work with plant genetics, and I have resisted the live-and-let-die approach because the gene flow math is poor.  That is to say there is so much noise in the selection, and outside drone fertilization, that the drift to a resistant strain is going to be agonizingly slow.

The Baton Rouge test for VSH behavior seems possible to administer by laymen, and could be used to cull poor and select only the best hives early, much improving the gene selection math.
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Offline Finski

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 04:24:21 pm »
Quote from: bailey on May 23, 2013, 02:01:43 pm
Finn. 
Can't speak for Europe or Canada or any other place
You mentioned and be accurate.  ( since I'm not there)


i bought mite resistant queens several years ago but they had as much mites as others.

You may find "varroa  resistant honey bee europe" fromgoogle.

Many  countries in Europe have private or public breeding programs of varroa resistant bees.
It depends who writes them.

In Sweden Gotland there are bees which are quite resistnt but they do not show hygienic actions. They do not open brood cappings. Somehow production of mites is supressed.

Kefys bee in Fance is said to be very tolerant but the bee is very aggressive. So told the guy who had those bees. Impossible to nurse them he said.


Thereare views and views. I am not going to spend my life with mite not more than now.
It must be someting better do.  but I do not believe these things what guys write here.  90% is nonsense.

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Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 07:48:58 pm »
Well fin
if we're all spouting nonsense why do you bother to read it? 
 Or even bother being here?

I do what works for me. I'm not saying its all correct but it works and my bees do perform quite well.
( my clients say so)

Does that give me the right to say your full of s##t ?    I think not.
Or the right to say your knowledge is nonsense?  I think not.  I try to give honest answers and pass on what I see. Folks can use it or not. ( up to them). 

 But I truly grow tired of the " professionals" deciding we're doing it wrong. Then talking to average MEN like they are idiots.   
We're not children and continuing to treat good people like they are stupid is not good manners.

I don't know why my mite counts are low but since I did participate in the national honey bee survey for the past 2 years and can document low mite loads I guess I'm not so full of nonsense as you imply.

I don't say my bees are VHS.  I just know that since I went foundationless and treatment free so the non resistant stock will die off my hives do great.   Low mite load. Low deformed wing virus counts. Great production and very low winter losses.  All without putting poison in my hives. 

How about you do things your way in your cold temps and let us in the sub tropics do things our way without all of this acting like your some kind of bee god?
It gets old and irritating!!!
Bailey.
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 07:52:59 pm »
Chestnut.

It's a live or die thing here.  I only breed from the bees that survive their first year in the isolation yard with no help other than supering.

It may not be the most direct way but so far it works. 

I also believe since I don't have ANY store bought bees in my program( all survivor stock) that I have the advantage of starting with resistant stock to begin with and I'm only weeding out the ones that are the least resistant.
Bailey

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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.

Offline JWChesnut

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 10:11:43 pm »
Bailey,
Let say thank you again for taking the risk on the treatment-free protocol.  It will pay-off for everyone, as you develop a resistant-survivor brood-stock. I am glad you have an isolation area.
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Offline bailey

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Re: Varroa Sensitive Hygiene
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 10:23:27 pm »
It's really just my way of getting the best bees I can get.
I'm the only beek in my city and there aren't many bees here other than the wild  survivor stock.
It works out pretty well for me and those who buy my bees.
It's not a real risk to go foundationless.  Just a bit of extra work.  As far as treatment free , well since I drink 2 pots of coffee daily and I use honey in my coffee I don't want mite treatment chems to build up in me.  ;)
Bailey
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most often i find my greatest source of stress to be OPS  ( other peoples stupidity )

It is better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open ones mouth and in so doing remove all doubt.
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