Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman

[empilolo]

Finsky wrote:

If you read varroa problem in South Africa, you may se that in nature bees are smaller than "tamed bees" which produce more honey and have large size. That is result of human selection when beekeepers select better foragers.

Very true. Our African bees are the "REAL THING" and, therefore, slightly smaller than your bees. Smaller cells too. Not your hyped up super bugs after decades of selective breeding and big cell foundation. Whether your larger bees are better foragers, I classify as a myth, unless you have a decent study at hand proving you correct. Beekeeping and results of forage are always local. You yourself have spread the gospel many times, that honey yield depends on forage quality.

Finsky wrote:

In South Africa African bee does not have natural varroa tolerance. Wild bees are in very bad condition everywhere. Beekeepers just wait that resistant bee stock emerge naturally somewhere.

Where did you get this fairy tale from ? To the best of my knowledge, this is absolutely false information you are spreading here. I shall try to substantiate this statement. Hope to be back on this (requested permission to publish a private communication I have received).

Finsky, you wrote

I am talking about information delivery responsibility.

I hope you take this as seriously as you advertise it. You should check your sources about the situation in South Africa, although the status there is the opposite of your personal beliefs, namely:

- the population did not collapse, both managed and feral

- the SA bees have bested varroa, i.e. they are largely varroa free by now

- SA beeks have adopted (largely) a strategy of no treatment

- Varroa being considered no more than a minor pest nowadays

- bottom line: No-one treats now, and the bees are healthy & happy.

Sorry to correct you, but that is actuality, not some old article somewhere on the web.

[Michael Bush]

>Drone areas are usefull. However bees make drones somewhere.

Exactly.  They WILL raise the drones regardless.  Of course if you can remove a frame of them BEFORE they raise them instead of AFTER, it will make a difference in the resultant mite population.

>makes as much harm to honey yield as varroa itsef

That's my problem with drone trapping.  The bees could have been making worker brood but are sidetracked spending the resources on drone until they get enough drone.

>Whether your larger bees are better foragers, I classify as a myth, unless you have a decent study at hand proving you correct.

Anyone know of a study?

[Finsky]

Where did you get this fairy tale from ?

You know empilobo that I am not responsible for that what South Africa authorieties write. Don't even try. What to say about my responsibility to share information in internet, I surely manage with that problem.   I have never deliveder 150 years old methods to make nuisance to new beekeepers like you offer. - Top Bars HAH

I read this from South African report from internet. I have not visited there.  It was said that chalkbrood was unknown in South Africa and varroa brought that too with.

Here is about a year old report from SA.  It is said there that natural resistant can be achieved but that tests have made in USA. http://ecoport.org/ep?Arthropod=25630&entityType=AR****&entityDisplayCategory=full

How is it possible that ARC - Agricultural Research Council in Pretoria South Africa does not know that varroa problem is over?

The need for such knowledge has been strongly accentuated by the introduction and rapid spreading of the alien ectoparasitic Varroa mite in South Africa. It has recently been documented that domesticated African colonies are as susceptible as European colonies to die from primary and secondary infestation effects. http://dbh.nsd.uib.no/nfi/rapport/?Keys=21642&language=no

Therefore, mite populations in South African A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis honey bees are expected to increase to levels observed in Europe and USA. http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Martin/Martin.html

2007 http://www.atlantica.fr/VarroaENG.php   Lactic acid spraying...at least
.

[Finsky]

- the SA bees have bested varroa, i.e. they are largely varroa free by now

How is it possible to get varroa free bees in 5 years?  Even in America africanized bees are not varroa free. They have more or less varroa.

Lets have a closer look on report from Pretoria Mike Allsopp 29 Dec 2006    
http://www.arc.agric.za/home.asp?PID=3062&ToolID=63&ItemID=3075

* Varroa destructor was first found in South Africa in August 1997
* The general belief that the African honeybee would be tolerant to the varroa mite as a result of environmental factors or other variables, and that varroa would have little impact on the bees of Africa had to be tested.

***This Working Group instituted a Varroa Research Programme to monitor and investigate the mite in South Africa, the preliminary results of which are presented here.

**In 1997 the varroa mite was to be found only in the Western Cape, but as expected the mite has spread rapidly throughout South Africa, almost entirely as a result of migratory beekeeping activities, and is now present in commercial honeybee colonies in all provinces.

Varroa mites have also been found in wild honeybee colonies where no beekeeping takes place, including the Kruger National Park, Cape Peninsular National Park, Tsitsikamma National Park and the Cedarberg.

***It is too early to draw firm conclusions about the impact of the varroa mites on African honeybees. Clearly, a large percentage of colonies are dying, but only time will tell if the African honeybee populations will collapse on the scale witnessed in Europe and North America.

[Conclusions

South Africa has the varroa mite that has caused widespread collapse of honeybee colonies throughout the world, and nothing has emerged during the Varroa Research Programme to suggest that the South African situation will be any different.

[Mici]

hmmm finsky, now your talking doesn't make much sense. first you almost persuaded me that natural cell won't help me, since M. Bush has africanized or african honeybees. with other words, using natural cells only works for african/africanized honeybees, and what you're now saying is that even african bees almost dissapeared coz of varoe :roll:

to cut it, you agreed with M.bush about african bees being  varoae hardy and now you're saying the oposit....

[Finsky]

hmmm finsky, now your talking doesn't make much sense.

Problem is in your basic knowledge Mici, if you don't understand. I have no problem with my sense.  :-D

Africanized bee has developed now 50 years in South America. It is another animal like bees which are in Africa. And Africa is 6 times size that of Europe. There many scutellata races in Africa.  I have just read. Never met Miss Scutellata.

[Understudy]

hmmm finsky, now your talking doesn't make much sense. first you almost persuaded me that natural cell won't help me, since M. Bush has africanized or african honeybees. with other words, using natural cells only works for african/africanized honeybees, and what you're now saying is that even african bees almost dissapeared coz of varoe :roll:

to cut it, you agreed with M.bush about african bees being  varoae hardy and now you're saying the oposit....

Michael does not have AHB. He has standard EHB that have been raised in nautral cell stups. He has no problem with Varroa.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[empilolo]

Finsky wrote:

You know empilobo that I am not responsible for that what South Africa authorieties write. Don't even try.

Sorry, mate. I do not try. I have my facts from the horse's mouth, not some overly dusty and old papers.

I do not rake around old muck, I went to the trouble and asked. I just received permission to post an e-mail I received from "a reliable source in South Africa"

e-mail dated Wed, 28 Mar 2007

Hi Mario

 We adopted (largely) a strategy of no treatment in SA; with extensive
 monitoring of the varroa impact on both wild & managed colonies. To
 begin with varroa did very well in our bees, and built up to (sometimes)
 huge numbers. And we saw all the classic varroa symptoms, including
 colony collapses. But the population did not collapse - maybe 30-40% of
 the bees dies. But those that did not die slowly recovered, and varroa
 numbers got less and less. To the extent that we now have bees (both
 capensis and scutellata) that are essentially completely tolerant of
 varroa, which is now no more than a minor pest. No-one treats now, and
 the bees are healthy & happy.

 My advice would be to let the susceptible bees die, to not use any
 treatment, and to ride out any losses that occur.

 Hope that helps

 regards

 name changed by empilolo to "a reliable source in South Africa"

this is the current status, not 5 and more years old stuff. My reliable source also included in his e-mail to me giving permission to post

Also, that I cannot handle a lot of correspondence at present so that if I get lots of additional questions, that I am likely to ignore them.

I honour this request and changed the name to "a reliable source". I would, however, like to mention that he is one of the authors of a somewhat aged paper you quoted at me previously in this thread. If any one of you is in doubt of what I post now, then I am willing to forward those two e-mails to one of the moderators of this board for verification.

On a final note, I usually do check out facts before posting. You have a lot of knowhow about cold temperature beekeeping, but I do not think you are much current about the state of affairs in Africa.

There many scutellata races in Africa.

Slight correction. There are many Apis mellifera races in Africa, scutellata being one of them.

[Finsky]

not some overly dusty and old papers.

Difficult to know. That "paper" is 4 moths old from authority.

Authorieties are also difficult. I have noted that researchers, who want money for they studies, they must be postivie with they sissue and after 5 years we can se that he was not objective.

Those who sell Apiguard or somethig "commercial stuff", they write that oxalic acid is not sure and there are bla bla bla. (= dont use free stuffs!)

However, these varroa papers do not become old in couple of years.  It took 10 years in Finland that varroa went across the country. Who ever may say or write what ever even now when varroa has been here 30 years.

Some beekeepers has no problems and I have all the time.  It is merely style to impress himself.

One question is that what means no trouble. To many "bee holders" is main task that hive is alive. To me it is that it has full capasity to produce honey.

If I have chalkbrood in some hive and it destroyes 20% from worker brood, that hive is not able to make surplus. To me that hive is same as dead.  It is useless. And if someone make business with bees, business cannot tolerate even 10% dead brood.

However, what a mess.  And what can beginner do than kill his colonies and bye new ones.

There many scutellata races in Africa.

Slight correction. There are many Apis mellifera races in Africa, scutellata being one of them.

Yes sorry, I believed that they are scutellata subraces? http://www.apiconsult.com/african-bees.htm.

But who is this odd authority with his moldy papers ? Perhaps I send him a mail and ask him to check  that he takes off his automatic dating system.

 Mike Allsopp 29 Dec 2006     Pretoria
http://www.arc.agric.za/home.asp?PID=3062&ToolID=63&ItemID=3075

At least he is co-operating with New Zealand and with Argentina in varroa problem. To me from this distance he is an expert. http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=Mike+Allsopp+2007+varroa&btnG=Hae&meta=

.

[ZuniBee]

Is this method of putting one frame of drone comb good for a beginning hive? I am trying to decide what to do with my package bees. The powdered sugar method seems like it would cause a lot of mites to be removed...from what I have read, due to bees cleaning and due to the powder filling the little suction cups on the mites feet causeing them to fall through the screen. Since there is not brood a great many mites could be removed. If I put the drone comb in the middle of a brand new hive it will surely slow down building the population for the honey flow. Am I thinking through this correct?

[Mici]

finsky, maybe i lack some of the basic knowledge, no you're right i lack basic knowledge, but when it comes to varoa treatment methods, my knowledge is by faw the widest in compare with local beeks. what i lack is expirience, so with other words, i'm just an apostol,. i spread the word of different crists :-P

but AGAIN, a friedn from canada has "pure" european (italian) honeybees and without treatment, so your whole hypothesis that only africanized honeybees can resist varoa falls right into water. what you're saying is the same as some of my previous posts, assumptions based on.-..what research?

zuni, from my perspective it would be hard to say, you have to decide, go for the natural beekeeping or the commercial one. if you by any chance are thinking about putting in some starter strips you can forget about the drone comb, since they'll build it across the nest area. if for the treatment method...hard to say, quite stressfull for a brand new package i'd say, but wait till others answer you

[Finsky]

Is this method of putting one frame of drone comb good for a beginning hive? I am trying to decide what to do with my package bees. The powdered sugar method seems like it would cause a lot of mites to be removed...from what I have read,

One frame of drone comb is absolutly too much to package hive.

System is in varroa treatment that you handle varroa before next spring that number of mites does not grow so much that autumn brood will be violated. I believe that seller has treated his bees for that reason. Ask him, if you do not know.

It is vain job to play all the time with mites. That is not purpose.  There are sure methods how you may kill almost all mites . Look for official recommendations.

[Finsky]

a friedn from canada has "pure" european (italian) honeybees and without treatment,

I do not know what is that case.  Half Norway is without mites.

so your whole hypothesis that only africanized honeybees can resist varoa falls right into water.

I have never said that and I have no hypotesis.

what research?

  Internet is full of good information. Read them.


We have still some snow in ground. I have in best hive 8 frames brood. That hive has African Monticola blood.  I feed them with pollen, soya and yeast 1:1:3 . That hive do not care is it winter or summer. In some hive only 1/2 frame. Life continues even here.



.

[Mici]

well he is one of the "natural beekeeping crists" that i spread the information from and he has had serious mite problems. there is no doubt about what saved his bees nad beekeeping!

ok, you didn't say exactly those words, but you can not denie you impleid to it! basicly the same thing, the hypothesis is in your head-in a way!.

since you always give quotations on things, i'd expect a quote about the study how africanized bees resist mites, you haven't showed it, i assume it doesn't exist if it would, you would like i said, shown it.

[Finsky]

about the study how africanized bees resist mites, you haven't showed it .

I don't understand quite what you mean.  You may yourself read reports what they say about Africanized bees. I am not needed to explaint it to you.

Question is not at all,  what I  know at all beekeeping. Question is how you manage with you hives and this forum, what you deliver with your 1 year's experience. You neet not examine me. 

I again say that world is full of "nature knows best" hobbiest. But I have knowledge enough that those people what I know, they know very few things about biological basics. They feel better than know. I don't give much value to that. Just awfull. It is vain to explain how to use chemical nutrients. It is vain to explain that chicken poo is harmfull to plants because it put trace elements out of balance.

I love nature. I have collected bird eggs, I know most Finnish birds by son, nest and eggs. I have cathered butterflyes raised their larvae, raised orchids, what ever. But to me it is highway of interst to ask question to myself. I enjoy that way. 

Put to google : africanized bee varroa tolerant. http://www.google.fi/search?q=africanized+bee+varroa+tolerant&hl=fi&start=40&sa=N

You just start to read.

Then varroa tolerant bee http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=+bee+varroa+tolerant&btnG=Hae&meta=

But pass all forum writings.

Then russian varroa resist  http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=russian+varroa+resist&btnG=Hae&meta=

So it goes.

.

[Mici]

what i mean with that is that if there is a study about a thing, and you know it shows the opposite of what i or anyone else is saying, you show it.

like i said, i don't contribute with my experience, experience is what i lack, i contribute with my knowledge, the one i got from books and the internet. my managin of the hives is about to feel a 180° turn, though, not because of you but due to my own sense of precaution i will test at least one hive with chemical treatment, to make sure, AND to prove you wrong/right in the next 5 years.

now that you mention birds, i've seen the first two storks around here, one arrived yesterday the other one today, the first report of them coming was in monday :lol:. to bad they don't bring the babyes like in fairitails.


would it help to the whole thing if we went from the start? why didn't varroa spread before-naturally, is there like an obstacle, was it trapped inside of a valley so bees couldn't pass? you know more about it and i doubt there's any useful information about it, anywhere i look it just says it spreaded across "this or that continetnt in this or that year".

[Finsky]

what i mean with that is that if there is a study about a thing, and you know it shows the opposite of what i or anyone else is saying, you show it.

You are really funny guy :-P

[Mici]

You are really funny guy :-P

now now, you shouldn't have said that. now you can expect to see a bill anytime soon-amusment isn't for free of course :-D

[Finsky]

Mici
.
The main point is that I do not want to those who do not want to learn. To listen provements means that you do not want to learn.
Find out yourself and work hardly with yourself to understand large things. World is free. I need to prove anything. I just want to know how things are.

I read a book "Crosscultural Communication". It was said that in Soviet people "authority means a lie" and "a friend means a truth".

Perhaps we are from different culture that you must repeat EU outhorities test resulst before you can use them. That is odd to me.

First you must set apart your hives that dones do not drift from entrance to entrance with their mites on neck.

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Language-Cross-Cultural-Communication/dp/0130948551

.

[buzzbee]

I understand the statement of culture difference as well as what may be a generational gap.
And you will have to be careful with manufacturers hype.They will quickly say"Mine works,theirs does not"No need to prove it, just say it!
I know a lot of people are against chemicals of any kind,but sometimes the benefit far outweighs the cost.Such as chlorinated water.
Now,what are your thoughts on the formic acid pads where oxalic is not approved?