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Author Topic: Drawing comb  (Read 13317 times)

Offline Kris^

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« on: March 12, 2005, 09:14:57 am »
With nearly two boxes of bees, all on drawn comb, would it make sense at this time to put a third box with foundation on?  The reason would be allow them to drawn comb in the third box, to give one colony a head start when I split later on this spring.  Or would the extra space just cause the existing colony problems?  They are being fed 1:1 syrup right now and getting pollen.

My plan when the honey flow starts is to split the hive as has been suggested, separating them with one hive immediately going to two deeps and the other with a comb honey super.

-- Kris

Offline Beth Kirkley

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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 10:24:26 am »
I would say adding another box would be a good idea. I'd like for others to reply also though. I'm just not sure what your weather is like up there in NJ. I'm guessing you wouldn't put the super on until a nice day (not freezing and windy). I'm thinking that if they're still trying to stay in a cluster, that opening the hive would disturb them.

But if they seem active, I certainly would add it.

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Offline Finsky

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Re: Drawing comb
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2005, 11:07:47 am »
Quote from: Kris^
With nearly two boxes of bees, all on drawn comb, would it make sense at this time to put a third box with foundation on?  The reason would be allow them to drawn comb in the third box, to give one colony a head start when I split later on this spring.  Or would the extra space just cause the existing colony problems?  They are being fed 1:1 syrup right now and getting pollen.


Seems that you have the same bees as at autumn. Healthy colony.

If your spring has just started, and they begin tp raise larvas when they get protein. During first  3 weeks bees can raise about 5 brood frames. When new bees hatch themselves, colony gets plenty of young feeder workers.  At the same time the winters bees died very quickly when they go to out works.

Usually it is better to put hive into one box. Hive developes so better .

After 4-5 weeks it is time to look if they need more space. I use to put new space to the lowest.

You make a big mistake if you put foundations or more space to bees. They are not able to draw combs. When real honeyflow starts  they can build 2-3 foundations, but not a box.

When honeyflow starts, hive has any more winter bees. They are gone.
 
Quote
My plan when the honey flow starts is to split the hive as has been suggested, separating them with one hive immediately going to two deeps and the other with a comb honey super.


When honeyflows starts, it is better that hive is so big as possible. If you do not want honey, it is bettre to split hive, but I do not know why?

I try to raise my hive to 4 deep to the beginning of June that I get dandelion honey and honey from gardens.

If I split the hive at that time, it takes a month that hive is able again to get  surplus honey from field.

If the starts to raise queen larvas, it is time to split hive or do something which stops the swarming intention.  In Finland tehre is 2-3 weeks gap in flooming and then bees starts swarming. If there is no flower gap, they just continue honey gathering.

Offline thegolfpsycho

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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2005, 12:18:06 pm »
I would let them keep building up to the flow, and watch them for signs of swarming.   Make the cutdown at the front of the flow.  Remember, your going to be giving most of the open brood, along with the queen to the new colony.  1 box will probably be enough for them to get going, and you can add a super when they need it.  The original colony is going to be jammed in 1 box also, with the comb honey super on top.  Most of the foragers will be left there, and any that went with the split will return.  Leaving one frame with eggs, they  will start raising a queen and without 1,000s of larvae to feed, they should be able to pack away alot of honey, as well as make sure their queen larvae gets plenty of royal jelly.  It's critical to keep them crowded up, and swarming shouldn't be an issue while they raise a new queen.  There are a bunch of books on producing section honey out there and I would suggest picking one up.  Like everything else in beekeeping, there are many ways to get something done.

Offline Robo

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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2005, 01:30:43 pm »
I think it is very unlikely that they will draw comb until the weather warms up.  They will most like store the syrup away in the two drawn boxes,  and if you continue to feed, they very well may become sugar honey bound.

I know there was a post the other day that said you couldn't feed too much, but I disagree.  If there is no natural flow yet, and they continue to take syrup, they can become bound.  It is very important you keep an eye on them while you feed.  If they become bound, you are just reducing your bees when there is a nectar flow and you need them the most.
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Offline Finsky

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2005, 02:04:25 pm »
Quote from: Robo
I think it is very unlikely that they will draw comb until the weather warms up.  They will most like store the syrup away in the two drawn boxes,  and if you continue to feed, they very well may become sugar honey bound.

I know there was a post the other day that said you couldn't feed too much, but I disagree.  If there is no natural flow yet, and they continue to take syrup, they can become bound.  It is very important you keep an eye on them while you feed.  If they become bound, you are just reducing your bees when there is a nectar flow and you need them the most.


Rob you totally right. When bees get food ouside, it speed up brood as much as hive can keep them warm.  There is no use to feed them sugar all the time.  

I have speeded my hives 12 years with pollen patty. I continue it  1,5 months. Now, when I took into use terrarium heaters I can see that the temperature of hive is minimum factor in brood rearing.  With protein and with warming hive developes 3 times faster, but only the big ones, one box or stronger. Little ones I kick up with brood frames which I take from biggest hives.

You have non insulated boxes and surely cold boxes hinders the growth of colony.

When last summer it was 2 weeks cold and bees cannot go out, the brood area dropped to half even if I had protein feeding and warming all the time. When I took my 4 largest hive outer pastures and without warming and but I feeded them, brood rearing stopped very badly. Some reported that in their hives 90% of brood vanished.

Why I am telling this.  To get optimal spring development bees need warm, protein food (pollen), inspiration from flowers and a lot of feeder bees.

With this hive is ready to get early honey yield.  Many are angry with me because they do not want to work so much with bees. They say here: THIS IS UNNATURAL!.  Of course it is, and it must be. So you have difference with skill and smaller skill.

I give now lessons concerning spring feeding and the name of lesson is "two fold honey with same hives".   But that is not nice; hard work to sell honey.

And to learn this had taken from mee 12 years it is not easy to others. Don't be astonishes if it does not work at once.

Also you can see that there are many advices on the contrary of this, but I just told my experiences.

But to get 200 lbs honey per hive, it is not easy. To get 60 lbs, you need to do almost nothing.  To keep 10 or 30 hives and you get  same volume of honey, there is also big difference.

Offline firetool

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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2005, 10:55:24 pm »
So if some one is having to start a hive with just foundation. It would not be a good idea to feed to much sugar water to them. Becouse they will not have enough room for brood. I am asking if this is right.
 I need to know what to do to help them draw out the comb in the foundation. I am giving them pollen patties and sugar water and have suppled fresh water close to the hive. What do I need to do to get this hive going in the right diretion? I though they would just draw out the comb if you put it in there hive. It sounds like you can couse more problems by providing to much foundation.

Any help please,

Brian

Offline thegolfpsycho

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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2005, 12:06:05 am »
If there is no flow, they won't draw the wax.  We feed to simulate a nectar flow and get them drawing wax and rearing brood.  If blossom are busting out all over, I would still put some syrup on them to supplement what they are gathering.  They won't take the syrup unless they aren't getting enough nectar to do what they need to.  Once they get the box drawn out, you can add another one for them to work on.  Just don't put it all on at once.  They might chimney up the center if you do that.  A lot depends on the time of year, the nectar flow, etc.

Offline firetool

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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2005, 03:43:39 am »
Thank you golfpsycho, just one more thing. When they fill up the one brood box, do I add the new one above or below the current hive box?

Brian

Offline thegolfpsycho

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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2005, 07:41:15 am »
I have always put the new box on top of the brood chamber.  You don't have to have a double deep brood chamber to make honey.  With a good queen laying wall to wall in a deep, there are alot of bees in the colony. And I would stop feeding once the nectar flow begins and they have some drawn comb to work with.

Offline Jerrymac

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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2005, 07:47:32 am »
Firetool I don't think you need to worry about the pollen , My bees are out everyday gathering pollen.
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Offline Robo

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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2005, 09:57:14 am »
Quote from: firetool
So if some one is having to start a hive with just foundation. It would not be a good idea to feed to much sugar water to them.


Not neccessarily.  The original question was adding a super of foundation onto an established hive which already had 2 boxes of drawn comb.  Bees will not draw excess comb (ie additonal supers) when the conditions are not right (warm weather, etc.)

Starting with just foundation is a totally different beast.  The bees have no comb to lay any brood in and will be forced to draw comb.  In this case, you should be providing as much syrup as the bees will take.

Whenever feeding syrup, you must watch them if they start taking large quanities.  You don't want them to just store it away and block brood rearing. As long as they are using it to build comb or feed, keep giving it.
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Offline firetool

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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2005, 10:19:06 am »
Thank you robo that is what I was weired about. I will look in on them the next warm day we have to see if they are drawwing out the comb or not.

Thanks again,

Brian

Offline Jerrymac

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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2005, 10:30:11 am »
:rainbowflower:  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   :rainbowflower:

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Offline Robo

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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2005, 10:35:46 am »
Quote from: Jerrymac
Here is where I get my weather info;

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/TXZ035.php?warncounty=TXC303&city=Lubbock


Here is where I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance http://....

No, just kidding. :wink:   Thanks for the link,  that is much better (quicker) than weather.com with all the darn ads.
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Offline Jerrymac

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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2005, 10:39:54 am »
You're really into that commercial ain'cha.
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Offline Robo

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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2005, 10:42:41 am »
Can't help myself,  everytime I see a post that is off-topic,  it just comes to mind :lol:
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Offline Jerrymac

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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2005, 10:53:38 am »
Me!?  :shock:  Off topic???? NO WAY!!!
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Offline Jay

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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2005, 06:16:29 pm »
Brian, a good rule of thumb for adding the next box is the 7/10 rule. When the girls have drawn 7 of the 10 frames in one box, add the next box on top. That way you avoid the chimney effect as golfpsycho mentioned and they have the room to move up if they need/want it. :D
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Offline Finsky

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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2005, 03:56:49 am »
Quote from: firetool
Thank you golfpsycho, just one more thing. When they fill up the one brood box, do I add the new one above or below the current hive box?
Brian


When hive has only one brood box at spring, I allways add the second below. I have had difficulties with chalk brood and when you put it one, bees must at once to warm upp 100% more space. When you put box  below, they can take the space into use as they need it.  Also first you can take food cakes down and you give empty frames to brood box.

It is very different  at spring and at summer. At spring night temperature is the thing which commands.

I know that allmost everybody put it above but just try and you will see!

And your's uninsulated boxes.

How much you have temperature by nights  there?

Offline firetool

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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2005, 10:45:49 am »
Right now they have been between 30-45F at night but we have had some very warm days to.It got to 80F the other day.
  I will try putting the box under it. It seamed the right way, then the bee's
have to travel throught the new hive ever time they come and go. I would think that they would start filling it in faster becouse of this.

 Brian

Offline Finsky

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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2005, 12:43:21 pm »
Quote from: firetool
Right now they have been between 30-45F at night but we have had some very warm days to.It got to 80F the other day.
   Brian


It seems that you have summer enough there. You can also do that you put 2 brood frames in the middle of lower box and  put  a couple of foundations in the one side of upper box. If you have pollen frames in upper box, you can move them in lower box. So queen get new space in warm part of box.  If you have capped honey, dont put it down.

Do you have honey flow there? Do bees fly they back body hanging?

If they have full load, they wings give a rough noise like a car's engine.

Offline firetool

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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2005, 05:10:39 pm »
I was woundering how fast can bees draw out the comb roughly. I don't want to open there hives to much. If I have a rough estimant on how long I can leeve them alone long enought for them to get some work done. Plus it is cold for the next few days.

I will whatch for these things that you said and see!
When you said to watch for the honey flow there back body hanging.I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Do you mean there abdamane will be hanging lower than the rest of their body.


Brian

Offline Beth Kirkley

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« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2005, 05:26:17 pm »
How fast they draw out comb has a couple variables that I can think of that would make it too hard to know how long it takes.
- how many bees there are in the hive
- if they are really interested in drawing comb

If you have a good hive, and they're starting to draw comb, then my experience has been that it took about one day to get 75% of on side of a frame done. If that helps at all. :)

Others may have had other experiences.

Beth

Offline Finsky

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« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2005, 05:43:15 pm »
Quote from: Beth Kirkley

Others may have had other experiences.

Beth


Where are we talking about? Here is the best winter, in Paris it seemed to be spring, somewhere is summer.  

When hive is full, it needs more space in every situation. If bees come out and are hanging outside, it is the last sign: More space.

If you have 2 boxes, often it seems that hive is full, but when you take upper away, the lowest is allmost empty.

If you are getting good honeyflow, and you see that there is space enough, you just put more. Have you there honeyflow, or is it snow fall like in Jerrymac forecast.

It is imposible to give advices if you do not know the whole situation.
To put more space is not so dangerous, but if you do not give, hive swarms.

It is most easy to look inside and see, how much hive has space. That is the way how beekeeper learns.

Offline Jerrymac

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« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2005, 07:30:14 pm »
Yes it is snowing today. I don't think we are having any honey flow at the present time. There are these weeds with a lot of yellow flowers but I haven't seen the bees anywhere near them. I noticed some purple flowered weeds the other day but haven't had a chance to see if bees are going to them. In the city I have seen fruit trees blooming, but I don't live close enough to any of them. Perhaps firetool has a bit of a different situation. But I can't think of any orchards near where he lives. Unless the bees do go five or six miles to get there.
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Offline Beth Kirkley

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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2005, 12:14:02 am »
And here.... in middle Georgia, we're probably about to hit a nectar flow. I haven't learned them well yet. But the pine trees blew pollen about 6 weeks ago. The day lilies bloomed weeks ago. Some wild flowers are blooming. And I noticed a few days ago that the dogwood trees all over town are blooming.

I'm sure there's more, but just haven't noticed specificly yet. I think it's really only the begining of the flowering. I remember last year that when the dogwoods were in high bloom, everything seemed to be also. I also remember that last year my hive got honey bound right after it swarmed. This year I made sure to get ahead of things. I've been in both hives already to check it out. I'm in a better situation this year with drawn comb. So I'm hoping to avoid the swarm/honey bound thing.

Once I see that the queens have begun laying some, I plan to do a split. I know she's laying, but it's different than other times of the year. It's more like she laid eggs, and they all hatched at the same time (nearly). Right now I have strong hives, more bees than I did a couple months ago, and tons of empty brood cells. Only a few capped brood, but can't see any larvae. If the weather is good at the first of the week (expecting rain for the next couple days) then I'll check them again and hoping to find brood good for a split.

Beth

Offline Finsky

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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2005, 02:36:22 am »
Quote from: Beth Kirkley
Only a few capped brood, but can't see any larvae. If the weather is good at the first of the week (expecting rain for the next couple days) then I'll check them again and hoping to find brood good for a split.

Beth


It seems that you have not old queen in the hive. Haven't it swarmed?
Do you have queen cells in the hive, or hatched queen cell? Broken queen cells?

Offline Beth Kirkley

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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2005, 09:04:59 am »
No queen cells - yet. :) Last year the hive swarmed on March 17th. So this year I wanted to to what I could to avoid it.

Last spring I split the hive after the swarm, because the hive was still crowded. If I had known more last year, I would have recognized the swarm cells that I had in the hive at that time. But it was my first spring, so I was majorly new to this. Not that I'm an expert now!

But after the swarm, I split the hives and gave each one a new queen. But I believe I wasn't able to buy the queens until April, so they had a few weeks without a queen.

So is a one year old queen young? I looked over every frame (face and bottom) rather well, and did not see any queen cells forming or open.

Beth

Offline Finsky

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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2005, 09:22:47 am »
Quote from: Beth Kirkley
I looked over every frame (face and bottom) rather well, and did not see any queen cells forming or open.

Beth


But why larvas are missing? It is not normal. Is there a new queen and it has killed the old one. Does hive have  eggs ?

Splitting after swarming? - No honey, no money

Offline firetool

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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2005, 10:22:26 am »
I do have some fruit trees in bloom right now. There are some pear, peach and plum trees right now! I have not noticed the heavy abdaminse yet per say or the loud wings from heavy load. I will be watching and lesining for these to things when it warms up.
 My queen is laying some I have seen larva already, while I was moving the hive. I did find so drone cells and checked them for mites. It is positive for mites. Who can I tell if they are a problem or not? I opened and emptied a few of them to see if their where any and how many. I found about four or five from about seven or eight drone cells. Is this good or bad?I would like to keep from using cemicals if at all possiable.

Brian

Offline Finsky

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« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2005, 10:55:13 am »
Quote from: firetool
I found about four or five from about seven or eight drone cells. Is this good or bad?I would like to keep from using cemicals if at all possiable.
Brian


It is quite much. You should now destroy all drone cells that mites cannot reproduce there.

Also make a drone frame, from where it is easy to  take drone pupas away and to clean cells. With drone fames you can catch about 50% mites away.  You cannot use chemicals when you have brood.

You can also use this http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html
.
.

Offline firetool

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« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2005, 11:32:00 am »
Thank you I will get started tring to remove them right away. They have some space to try to make more drone cells so I will watch for the drone and remove them right away. After I clean them out I put them back right so I can do it again.

Brian

 

anything