Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: annette on April 27, 2008, 03:33:28 pm
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OK it looks like the mystery of this troublesome hive has been solved. I have tried to requeen them and that did not work. (they killed the queen in the cage). Finally took some photos and blew them up on the computer. Multiple eggs, not in the center and not in the bottom of the cell.
Laying worker!!!! So I will be introducing for about 3 weeks, a frame of open brood every week in the hopes they start to understand that they should make a queen.
Wish me luck. Guess I could lose this hive if they do not get it.
Annette
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/20/dsc01105no7.th.jpg) (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01105no7.jpg)
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3996/dsc01106xt1.th.jpg) (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc01106xt1.jpg)
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Good luck! I'm glad all of you have posted advice on this, in case I ever need help. Upload some of those photos so we can see!!
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OK you got it. I believe the first photo is the best. And open it up as large as you can to see the multiple eggs. When I looked at this frame in the sun, it looked like the eggs were right in the middle and in the bottom of the cell. Only when placed on the computer can you really see the truth that they are not in the middle and not on the bottom.
Annette
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Oh wow! Beautiful photos, terrible laying pattern. You're 100% correct! Not like there was a question on that anyways ;)
Thanks for sharing the photos, and good luck on getting that worked out soon.
Scott
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I'd give them a frame of open brood a week for three weeks. That usually fixes things.
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Good luck, I had this trouble with a hive last year. I finely had to shake them out of the hive in front of my other hives forcing them to find a new hive.
Since then I have been doing some thinking.....dangerous. If you put a queen rite hive on top of the hive with the laying workers (double screen between them) would that fool them into believing they two were also queen rite?
Steve
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I believe there is something like this on Michael Bush's web page regarding solving the problems of the laying worker hive.
To begin with I will just keep introducing the frame of open brood every week and see if that works.
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Yep, looks like multiples on the sides of the cells. Laying worker to me. Good luck Annette.
...JP
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If, a week after the 3rd frame is installed and you still see no sighs of queens cells it is time to shake out the hive and install another frame of brood, after that do a combine with the laying worker hive above.
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If, a week after the 3rd frame is installed and you still see no sighs of queens cells it is time to shake out the hive and install another frame of brood, after that do a combine with the laying worker hive above.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying Brian. OK I understand the first part about waiting up to 4 weeks after introducing the open brood, but then when you say shake out the hive, do you mean shake them out far away from the original location and then place the hive back in the original location. I have heard this before that the nurse bees will end up on the ground and cannot find their way home, while the foragers will return to the original hive.
But what do you mean by combining with the laying worker hive???
Annette
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I have always herd it is best to take them 50-75 or maybe 100 feet away from the location to shake them.
The laying workers are to heavy to fly and will not return.
What I've herd. :roll:
doak
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I shook 2 laying worker colonies this spring just as Doak described. I am waiting for all eggs to hatch prior to checking on them again and putting in a new queen.
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Oh wow Annette,
How frustrating, this is one of my biggest fears...laying workers...hope this time is the charm for you and the hive!
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I had that trouble last year. Brendhan's advice: dump them all out 100 yards or more from the hive.
I did that and then combined with a nuc. Worked wonders. no trouble after that
kev
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I have combined and gotten away with it, but I've also seen it end up queenless. I've never seen a shake out resolve the problem. The two sure methods are to move all the equipment and shake them all out on the ground and give the equipment to other hives. The bees will drift. Or a frame of brood every week for three weeks. Everything else is iffy.
But here's a list of everything I ever got to work:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
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The further away you can shake out the hive the better, in the city it might have to be done in the front yard when bees are in the back yard. At my place I'd shake them out down by the barn which is close to 100 yards away from the bee yard.
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Oh wow Annette,
How frustrating, this is one of my biggest fears...laying workers...hope this time is the charm for you and the hive!
Thanks Sharon,
For some reason I am taking this very calm and peaceful. I will try to do the best I can for the hive, then surrender.
Take care
annette
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The further away you can shake out the hive the better, in the city it might have to be done in the front yard when bees are in the back yard. At my place I'd shake them out down by the barn which is close to 100 yards away from the bee yard.
OK Brian, Thanks also for the info. Hopefully I will not get to this point.
annette
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If you happen to have another hive or possibly a queen cell from somewhere, you could try putting that in there(after spraying with some sugar water). I had some luck with that.
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That would be a great scenario, but unfortunately, my only other hive (I have only 2) is doing great right now and no queen cells.
Thanks for the response
Annette
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OK dear people,
I just introduced another 2 frames of open brood and eggs to my laying worker hive in the hopes they make a queen. This will be week number 2 of doing this. Today I was very careful and saw the eggs, so I feel really good about this transfer.
Last week when I gave them the frames I did not see eggs, just larvae in various stages of growth. I did not know how to find eggs last week. I just now for the first time since beekeeping have figured out how to find the eggs. I may give this hive an extra week of open brood just in case I did not give them any eggs last week.
Wish me luck that they make a queen.
The only thing I feel really badly about right now, is I am disturbing my one and only good hive which is making so much honey. I keep taking frames of brood from them when they need to be strong now. It also takes me some time to find the right frame of brood and I had to open up each and every super until I finally found the right frames. I guess they will be fine
Have a great day
Annette
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Annette,
What is your secret to finding eggs??
:-D
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I finally focused in on the bottom of the cells and really concentrated by looking and looking at the cells. Take a good look at the laying workers photo I posted here. Blow up the photo as large as possible (if you keep clicking on the picture it blows up very large). Move around the photo until you can see the eggs laying in the cells.
You have to ignore the bees walking around on the comb and just focus. Let me know how it works out.
Love
Annette
PS. The seedlings are coming up now and I am taking good care of them.
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If you put a queen rite hive on top of the hive with the laying workers (double screen between them) would that fool them into believing they two were also queen rite?
Steve
Steve, your question has not been answered, and I am curious about this too, maybe someone will answer, I think the question got lost in the posting. Beautiful and most wonderful day, Cindi
P.S. Modified, Steve, I read Michael's site on the laying worker stuff, read that, there is some really interesting data, and the question that you asked is pretty much dealt with there, and explained so well, MB does such a great job of teaching in the most simplistic manner, http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm, read it, it is good!!!!
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The only thing I feel really badly about right now, is I am disturbing my one and only good hive which is making so much honey. I keep taking frames of brood from them when they need to be strong now. It also takes me some time to find the right frame of brood and I had to open up each and every super until I finally found the right frames. I guess they will be fine
Have a great day
Annette
Annette, look at it this way, you are practising swarm control measures and you are learning a wealth of information. You are becoming a great beekeeper, and you have many skills you are acquiring!!! Good for you, there is a bright and sunny side to this laying worker business, hee, hee, beautiful day in this beautiful life. Cindi
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After looking at a bunch of my colonies yesterday I found 3 of my hives with laying workers.
Two of which I already shook out to try and leave the laying workers behind. So I am going to say good bye to these bees and shake them into a pail of soapy water and re-use the boxes elsewhere.
Something else I found that is interesting is one of my queens is laying multiple eggs in each cell. I have decided to kill her this afternoon and introduce another queen.
Out of the 50 or so splits I made, only 2 rejected the intorduced queen.
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BMAC. Hold it with killing that queen that is laying multiple eggs. I remember reading here that sometimes when a queen begins laying for the first time that she will for a short time lay multiple eggs, she will sort that out and be OK. Just a thought here. Best of this beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi
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BMAC. Hold it with killing that queen that is laying multiple eggs. I remember reading here that sometimes when a queen begins laying for the first time that she will for a short time lay multiple eggs, she will sort that out and be OK. Just a thought here. Best of this beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi
Nice tip. I will give her a week before I give her a squish.
Thanks....
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BMAC. Good, she is probably so full of eggs she can't wait to get rid of the extras, hee, hee, she will probably be your best queen of all, she will show her appreciation of you sparing her life, have that beautiful and most wonderful day, Cindi
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I've been wondering also about the effects of taking brood from a strong hive to give to a queenless hive. Although they are strong, this is the time of year that stealing brood may seem detrimental.
I try to find a bit of sunlight to shine down into the cells when looking for eggs. Tiny little suckers. I think I'm going to invest in a magnifying glass.
Derrick
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I've been wondering also about the effects of taking brood from a strong hive to give to a queenless hive. Although they are strong, this is the time of year that stealing brood may seem detrimental.
I try to find a bit of sunlight to shine down into the cells when looking for eggs. Tiny little suckers. I think I'm going to invest in a magnifying glass.
Derrick
Perhaps you will have better luck with the magnifying glass then I did. I still cannot see anything unless the sun shines into the cells, and at that point you cannot use a magnifying glass because you will fry the eggs. Maybe a very large magnifying glass would work. It did not work for me.
Let me know if it works for you.
Annette
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Annette, Thank you so much for posting this dilema. I too have been having some problems with my hive since January. In the Fall I had a gut feeling to requeen then but did not. Your dilema has answered many questions. I think my hive may be queenless or close to it. The girls have been drawing supercedure cells like crazy. I will be getting 3 nucs and 1 queen next week. I was going to split this hive this Spring. Plans have changed.
Thanks again,
Corinne
PS Sorry you are having such problems with you hive.
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Hi Corinne
Thanks for your response. Well, if they are drawing supercedure cells, you are in luck. At least they will make a queen.
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Thanks Annette,
I am hoping they will draw a new queen before she is gone. The hives disposition sure has changed this spring. The bees are more defensive.
Thanks again,
Corinne
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The younger the brood the less stress it is for the bees. Eggs are very little investment. Capped brood is a huge investment. For an egg they fed a little pollen and honey to a queen (after they processed it into royal jelly). For a capped brood cell they burned a cell of pollen, a cell of honey and a cell of water.
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Well I did the deed for my laying workers last night. I shoot them all and killed them. revocered the boxes and placed them on other needed colonies.
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BMAC, now you are just plain and simply brutal, hee, hee, ;) :) :) :). Good that you dealt with that issue, things will be well, have that wonderful and awesome day, Cindi
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Well I did the deed for my laying workers last night. I shoot them all and killed them. revocered the boxes and placed them on other needed colonies.
That is a lot of .22 shells. Or did you go with something bigger? :-P
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Well I did the deed for my laying workers last night. I shoot them all and killed them. revocered the boxes and placed them on other needed colonies.
That is a lot of .22 shells. Or did you go with something bigger? :-P
Yeah. It was bigger than a .22, but worry not. I reload all my own ammo. Except for the .22 anyway.
I meant to type in shook them but seeing how I was killing something you can see what popped into my head first.
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another way to find eggs, especially for us older folks, is to take pictures of your frames as you inspect. you'll see the eggs later when you look at the pictures. this was an idea from cindi ages ago, and it is great.
not only will you see the eggs, but you'll spot other things that you missed when you were in the hive. you'll also have a record that you can compare from inspection to inspection. if you mark the frames, you'll be able to identify which you have photographed. a sharpie does the trick.
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Kathyp, Thanks for the tip as yes I am one of those older ones.
thanks
Corinne