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Author Topic: Make guns illegal  (Read 5028 times)

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2015, 09:02:05 AM »
>Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,
>Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;
>Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

But we only care how many were killed by guns...  The anti-gun people only measure "gun deaths", not crime related deaths... they include all the suicides and all the people killed in self defense as well as all the gang shootings.  Gang shootings are classified as "children" if they are 21 or under...
 
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2015, 11:19:51 PM »
 Gang shootings are classified as "children" if they are 21 or under...

   Children...   and yet, at 17 years old you can be sent to fight and die for your country... and they cant even legally have a beer...
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Offline GSF

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2015, 08:29:16 AM »
The anti gun crowd is fact proof. Facts are irrelevant, it's what they believe that counts.

 jvalentour, sounds like home. I don't believe it'll be the local law enforcement or the National Guard that'll try to confiscate your guns. Not sure who or when.

When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline OldMech

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2015, 08:08:54 PM »
Removing guns will work just about exactly like prohibition worked for alcohol.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2015, 11:35:17 AM »
>Removing guns will work just about exactly like prohibition worked for alcohol.

Actually the prohibition worked better because people who drink need a constant supply making it easier to catch them in the act.  Criminals only need a gun and a little ammo to last them a lifetime of crime... they don't need a constant supply.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2015, 01:22:33 PM »
I may be a little off topic here, but I've often thought if people took a hard look at the death toll in motor vehicles, there would be a movement to ban them forever.

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2015, 03:43:33 PM »
I may be a little off topic here, but I've often thought if people took a hard look at the death toll in motor vehicles, there would be a movement to ban them forever.

The death toll from tobacco and alcohol (drunk driving) put most other causes of death to shame.  Even medical misadventure is greater thanngun-related deaths, I think ( but don't hold me to it)
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline OldMech

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2015, 11:06:38 PM »
>Removing guns will work just about exactly like prohibition worked for alcohol.

Actually the prohibition worked better because people who drink need a constant supply making it easier to catch them in the act.  Criminals only need a gun and a little ammo to last them a lifetime of crime... they don't need a constant supply.


    Hadn't considered that. Well said!
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Offline GSF

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2015, 09:45:27 AM »
herbhome, I think I read somewhere that Doctors actually killed more people than guns, then there's the knives, baseball bats, drunk drivers, ect. I think all of these kills more folks that guns.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline herbhome

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2015, 10:52:11 PM »
It's been a long time since I did any research into it but at the time the urban murder rate was driving the gun control people. The urban murder rate was overwhelmingly comprised of drug dealers (many mere children) fighting over turf.

If anyone can figure out how to keep guns out of these kids hands, maybe they can get the crack from them also.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2015, 11:17:20 AM »
> I've often thought if people took a hard look at the death toll in motor vehicles, there would be a movement to ban them forever.

A typical year in the US auto accidents take about 40,000 lives and maims many more...  Yes, you would think we would get excited about a number like that...  There were 12,253 murders in the US in 2013 (not "gun deaths") and we 3.8 murders per 100,000.  We are #95 from the highest (94 countries have a higher murder rate).  Honduras was the highest at 90.4 per 100,000, Venezuela was next at 53.7 per 100,000...  Do you think there are that many more guns per capita in those countries to cause that difference?  We have more than enough guns to arm every human in the US and they have 24 times the murder rate in Honduras.  Do you think they have 24 times as many guns?  I guess not.  Honduras has a 64.8 per 100,000 "gun death" rate.  The US has a 10.5 per 100,000 "gun death rate".  Obviously they are not all murders.  Many are suicides.  So how do we rank on suicides?  12.1 per 100,000.  #50.  Shouldn't we be #1 since we are so armed and guns are the cause of suicide, right?  We lose 11.6 per 100,000 to cars.  In 2012 that was 36,166.  We actually lose more people to suicide than to guns or cars...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2015, 11:17:52 AM »
I've got it!  We need to make suicide illegal!!!!
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2015, 02:50:45 PM »
I had a long rainy day to play with some anti-gun nuts on FB.  The usual "ban assault riffles because no one should have something that can SPAY bullets all over the place".  + the usual and latest talking points put out by the admin.

It's hard to talk to people who hold a position based on bad info, but sometimes it's worth it just to sharpen your arguments.  You may educate one person in the process and hope you at least make them think.

By the end, my friend understood that a semi-automatic weapon behaves in exactly the same way no matter what it looks like.  One trigger pull = one round.  It was a small victory.  next we might tackle velocity, tumble, cavitation, and deformation.....  :grin:  I would love to be in the room when I explain to her that a high velocity round fired into a person at close range is potentially less damaging than, say, a .45 fired from a hand gun at close range.

We must push back even when it seems a hopeless battle. Sometimes I am glad my state legalized pot though   :grin:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 03:18:54 PM by kathyp »
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2015, 02:58:37 PM »
"sometimes I'm glad my state legalized pot, though."

Yep, pot improves your patience when dealing with idiots, I guess.  And if they're using it, too, it makes THEM more stupid, huh?
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Hi-Tech

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2015, 04:28:55 PM »
The biggest issue we have is the media. 50 years ago, people still killed people. However, there was no CNN or FOX news on TV 24/7 so it didn't get reported. Local news came on at 5:30 PM and national news at 6. If you were lucky (or unlucky?) enough to catch it, they didn't have time to talk about every single death in America and they certainly couldn't talk about if for hours on end. Now, they have time, and an audience.

Also, you didn't have these nut cases shooting up folks back then for 2 reasons.
1 - you could report someone as being crazy and they came and got them. They didn't give them meds and turn them loose. They put them in the nut house.
2 - They wouldn't get famous (infamous) because they didn't get 5 days of airtime on 7 different channels 24/7

I long for the days when news was 1 hour a night and your kids begged you not to watch it because it was boring...
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Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2015, 08:28:22 PM »
I found this article from an apparently reputable source that says medical errors are the third highest cause of death in the US, with something more than 400,000 deaths a year caused by shoddy care, mistakes or failure to provide care.


http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/09/20/224507654/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-u-s-hospitals


At the end of the article, I found this jewel:

Dr. David Mayer, vice president of quality and safety at Maryland-basedMedStar Health, said people can make arguments about how many patient deaths are hastened by poor hospital care, but that's not really the point. All the estimates, even on the low end, expose a crisis, he said.

"Way too many people are being harmed by unintentional medical error," Mayer said, "and it needs to be corrected."
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2015, 08:30:10 PM »
I couldn't figure out how to ask in the above post, what about the INTENTIONAL ERRORS?
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2015, 08:43:16 PM »
So let's outlaw medical care?  No, the medical profession needs to clean up its act, literally.  How many times have you seen a physician who failed to wash his/her hands prior to an exam?  I have suffered two infections because of dirty practice.  In one case, I had to have six weeks of regular IV infusions of vancomycin.  in the other, my chemotherapy had to be stopped because of klebsiella contamination in my mediport and the mediport had to be removed.  Both were life-threatening events caused by the same surgeon.  So I'm very lucky to be alive to write this.

Everywhere, these days, we hear the (recorded) warning, "If you see something, say something" and I'm saying if you see a medical person not doing something like washing their hands between patients, say something -- for your own protection.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Hi-Tech

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2015, 11:21:19 AM »
I once read a fictitious conversation between a man and God. It went something like this...
Man: God how come you don't stop any of the bad things that happen in this world?
God: I do. I stop a million bad things from happening a day but because they don't happen you don't notice them.

Why do the medical error deaths not cause a stir or demand for reform? Because people do see all of the lives saved by the medical profession. I am not sure of the numbers but I would guess that if you look at every life saved by doctors verses every life lost to errors, the loss would be a very low percentage. People can live with that.

With guns, there are no statistics for the lives saved due to guns. How may hold ups never happened because a punk thought a store clerk might be armed? How many home invasions didn't happen because of the fear of a homeowner with a gun. If you had a crystal ball and could look at all of the "almost happened" situations, the people would see the risk of gun ownership is worth the reward.

As God said in the make believe conversation. Guns saved a lot of lives but because the event never occurred, you didn't notice it.
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Make guns illegal
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2015, 01:52:55 PM »
The thing about motor vehicles is not so much drunk driving,( a no brainer), but using the vehicle as it is intended with horrible consequences. Traveling 60 mph and a deer jumps into the path. A dumb cow crosses the road. 40 cars are following each other in the fog at 60 mph and the first car blows a tire. I'm pretty sure humans were never intended to travel at such speeds, but we are so addicted to the mobility we refuse to consider living without it. I spent my entire career repairing and maintaining heavy, industrial manufacturing machines and I am well aware of the fact that even robustly built and well maintained machines will fly apart at the most inopportune time. I now drive into town 3 or 4 times a month but to my thinking its way too much!

 

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