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Author Topic: House Repealed Obamacare  (Read 937 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2017, 12:56:32 PM »
I think Hitler claimed everyone else was lying.  Even the foreign media knows who is the liar.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-us-president-false-claims-inauguration-white-house-sean-spicer-kellyanen-conway-press-a7541171.html
I will tell you Jim if I wanted to know who is slanting a story I would watch what the Canadians were saying about it.  I live close to that boarder so those stations are accessible to me.  This has always proven to steer me right when trying to find the truth.  I suspect if you could understand Spanish you could watch a Hispanic channel down your way and get the truth.  But you seem complacent to believe the liar you voted for.  And there ain't nobody that is going to change your mind no matter how much proof is provided you.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2017, 01:24:34 PM »
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  But you seem complacent to believe the liar you voted for.

I don't believe anyone.  They all have an agenda and they all have a slant.  Were you so upset by the lies of Obama?  Maybe I missed your rants about him.  If so, sorry.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline Acebird

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2017, 01:47:44 PM »
They all have an agenda and they all have a slant. 

I agree, but a slant or an agenda is quite a bit different then one bold faced lie after another.  All politicians are liars just like salesman.  It is expected. 
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2017, 05:40:00 AM »
I really enjoyed the above posts.  I also posted this in the Trump will fail thread, but it seems more relevant here...

While not in the US insurance system, I have had a keen interest in the ACA and the subsequent political events and discussions on health care.
It seems to me that the ACA created an environment that was way too complicated and that IF a national healthcare insurance system is to be successful, it needs to be truly national - meaning the same insurance (rates, options, coverage extent, etc.) across states, counties, etc., and of course single-payer. If a truly national single-payer system were implemented the insurance companies would be relegated to selling top-up policies to cover co-pays and whatever the national system might not cover (for example, hot springs treatment, single patient rooms, etc.).

I am following conversations in cancer forums in the US and UK, and the hoops US citizens must jump thru seem onerous in comparison to the UK, and what I have here in Japan.

Of course there is a cost ? since nothing is free, but in the US that cost is simply paid to the insurance companies, paid into the medical industry thru higher (non-negotiated) costs, or bourn thru suffering by those who are ill and unable to obtain care appropriate to their illness as determined by their physician.  It seems to me that the real issue in the US is whether one believes that having a healthy populous is important or not as a government priority ? and at a level comparable to military security, infrastructure, the rule of law, education, the economy, etc.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Psparr

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2017, 09:12:06 AM »
I really enjoyed the above posts.  I also posted this in the Trump will fail thread, but it seems more relevant here...

While not in the US insurance system, I have had a keen interest in the ACA and the subsequent political events and discussions on health care.
It seems to me that the ACA created an environment that was way too complicated and that IF a national healthcare insurance system is to be successful, it needs to be truly national - meaning the same insurance (rates, options, coverage extent, etc.) across states, counties, etc., and of course single-payer. If a truly national single-payer system were implemented the insurance companies would be relegated to selling top-up policies to cover co-pays and whatever the national system might not cover (for example, hot springs treatment, single patient rooms, etc.).

I am following conversations in cancer forums in the US and UK, and the hoops US citizens must jump thru seem onerous in comparison to the UK, and what I have here in Japan.

Of course there is a cost ? since nothing is free, but in the US that cost is simply paid to the insurance companies, paid into the medical industry thru higher (non-negotiated) costs, or bourn thru suffering by those who are ill and unable to obtain care appropriate to their illness as determined by their physician.  It seems to me that the real issue in the US is whether one believes that having a healthy populous is important or not as a government priority ? and at a level comparable to military security, infrastructure, the rule of law, education, the economy, etc.
Ever been to the DMV? That's why I don't want the gooberment running heathtcare.

Offline Acebird

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2017, 09:40:35 AM »
That's why I don't want the gooberment running heathtcare.

Do you really believe the government is not in healthcare?  Do you honestly think that the ACA act is the first?  Have you heard of the FDA?  Have you been to a medical facility and not filled out a form that is required by the government?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 11:55:26 AM by Acebird »
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Offline beecanbee

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2017, 10:04:49 AM »
Ever been to the DMV? That's why I don't want the gooberment running heathtcare. 

Not sure how that fits, but yes many years ago, and I don`t have a particularly negative remembrance of that.  Maybe a short wait, much like a bank, but maybe things have changed.

But on NHI, from my experience here in Japan - it isn`t the government running health care - but rather doctors and hospitals running health care instead of insurance companies.  The government agency just replaces the insurance companies with a national plan - plus does more, such as setting charge caps for services and negotiating drug and equipment prices with suppliers.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline kathyp

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2017, 01:40:28 PM »
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The government agency just replaces the insurance companies with a national plan - plus does more, such as setting charge caps for services and negotiating drug and equipment prices with suppliers.

The entire system in Japan is different as is the mentality of the people.  While I see single payer working reasonably well in smaller countries and countries with compliant citizens...Japan, Germany, as examples, remember that we are talking about a significantly larger population and a far more diverse population. 

IF we were to do this, the things we'd have to do such as no more immigrants that can't pay their own way, no more refugees, etc. would make people as angry as they seem to be about health care.

I agree that insurance is a crappy way to pay for health care as we now get insurance.  It's a burden on business and it's expensive if you don't get it through work.  On the other hand, we did this because we became convinced that it was the responsibility of someone...anyone...to pay for our health care...anyone except us. 

Those people who pay cash for most care or used a co-op type service pay far less.  The market is the solution, not the government.

I'll also point out that all these countries thinking the US is terrible for not having national health care depend on our military so they don't have to spend those dollars on defense.  We have 2/3 of our budget already committed to social welfare programs.  That leaves 1/3 to build this massive bureaucracy that will be single payer.  Everyone who thinks the US will ride to the rescue if they get in trouble better figure out how to defend themselves because the 1st thing in the 1/3 that's going to get hit is our military budget.
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline beecanbee

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2017, 05:48:24 PM »
Some good points there, and I certainly agree that our Japan system does work well because of other factors here.  But work it does, and I have to believe that NHI would work well in he US too, just somewhat differently. 

We do have good control over immigrants, but anyone who lives here for 3 months or more, job or no job, is obligated to chip in, and I would say that most do.  But again within a system where the whereabouts of everyone is largely known.  And we do not have a welfare financial drain.  Very limited and very carefully vetted outlay for immediate loss of life of family provider, the destitute elderly, etc., but not for others who ought to be working.  Some able-body homelessness of course, but not on a dole. 

I don`t buy the military/healthcare choose one or the other line - the US economy pays for both now, and extravagantly for healthcare, just not well allocated/managed, IMO.

And I don`t think any country (or its population) thinks the US is a crappy country, save NK of course, but rather it being a case of US citizens thinking that they can`t afford healthcare, or just cannot obtain good care, because of the way the insurance works.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 06:01:04 PM by beecanbee »
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline kathyp

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2017, 07:45:06 PM »
here is my suggestion before we dump another federal bureaucracy on the 53% of us paying federal tax.  Reform the tax code.  Reform the welfare system.  Reform the immigration and refugee programs. THEN come and tell me how you want me to pay for another entitlement program.  Medicare and Medicaid will have to go.

Every federal program suffers from creep.  In part, it's politics.  The more crap offered to people the more voters.  The crap comes at the expense of the people who pay into the system.  If we are to do a national health care program then it must be well defined and limited.  no sex changes, breast augmentations, viagra, etc. 

We can't do what the Brits have done and cover everyone and their dog, with everything they demand.  If the NHS is the 5th largest employer in the world, imagine what a similar program would look like here?  We can't do like the Canadians and have everything covered by the government program with no private care available for the most part. That might work for 26 million people.  It won't work for 350 million people.   People with money will still get more care and it won't be "fair", but life is not fair. 
One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline beecanbee

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2017, 08:48:30 PM »
Yes - tax reform for sure.  Here I rarely paid below 43%, with the top marginal rate at 75% (I think).  Very few deductions and essentially no itemisation's, and no exceptions for `type of income`.  And all very simple - taking me just a few hours to complete it.

Also agree for welfare and immigration to limit the excesses.  Our healthcare doesn`t cover the elective/cosmetic services either - for those you need to go private.

Not so sure on Medicare and Medicaid.  Isn`t Medicare an extension of SS, and Medicaid for the destitute ill?  Probably don`t want people dying on the streets outside of hospitals.
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Acebird

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2017, 09:33:04 AM »
Every federal program suffers from creep.  In part, it's politics.  The more crap offered to people the more voters.  The crap comes at the expense of the people who pay into the system.  If we are to do a national health care program then it must be well defined and limited.  no sex changes, breast augmentations, viagra, etc. 

Oh darn I was looking for a free male organ enlargement. LOL  All kidding aside the ACA is meant for BASIC healthcare.  And I don't believe it covers eyes and teeth but it should, especially teeth because teeth health affects other health in the body.

I am sure everyone on all sides hates the creep, the crap, the corruption and the politics of any government program.  I don't see that as a reason to eliminate programs that are helpful for the general population.  What I see is a need to unite against what is wrong with the program and fix it.  Why can't we do that as a nation?
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Offline gww

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2017, 10:42:02 AM »
Ace
Quote
I am sure everyone on all sides hates the creep, the crap, the corruption and the politics of any government program.  I don't see that as a reason to eliminate programs that are helpful for the general population.  What I see is a need to unite against what is wrong with the program and fix it.  Why can't we do that as a nation?

Thumbs up.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2017, 02:43:22 PM »
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Not so sure on Medicare and Medicaid.  Isn`t Medicare an extension of SS, and Medicaid for the destitute ill?  Probably don`t want people dying on the streets outside of hospitals.

Medicare is a program that people are forced to pay into and then used when you are old to mess up your medical care.  For an older person who can't afford insurance or cash care or didn't get care as part of a retirement program, it's better than nothing.  ACA took money out of Medicare as part of the "reforms" which meant docs were left with the same paperwork mess, but less reimbursement and more regulations.  Many have dropped out of the program or limited the number of patients they will take resulting in...less choice.

Medicaid is supposed to be a state run program for the poor.  The ACA expanded the program to cover those making 133% or less of the poverty level.  When people tried to get insurance on the exchanges and fell into that % they were put on Medicaid.  Again, government regulated and so docs dropped out of it resulting in....less choice.  In addition, the feds paid the state to expand Medicaid, but the federal money had a time limit on it so states will eventually have to pick up the cost of that expansion. 

Here is a study from my VERY liberal state on Medicaid and outcomes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/05/02/oregon-study-medicaid-had-no-significant-effect-on-health-outcomes-vs-being-uninsured/#7083373a6043

Quote
I don't see that as a reason to eliminate programs that are helpful for the general population.  What I see is a need to unite against what is wrong with the program and fix it.  Why can't we do that as a nation?

The problem is that once you create an entitlement program, you can't do anything to it but fiddle around the edges.  That fiddling can never result in a reduction in the program.  SSI is a prime example.  It went from a widows program, to include kids, then the disabled, and any attempt to reform it results in commercials with someone tossing granny off the cliff. 

Englands NHS is also a good example.  It is constantly in the news for one thing or another and every politician has some way to fix it, but it remains the same.  The suggestion of a small co-pay causes the Brits to become apoplectic because they were promised "free" care.  That free care extends to wandering into the ER because you have a snotty nose, while people die from cardiac arrest because the ER is faster for the snotty nose than going to clinic.  Sound familiar??  And guess what, ACA was supposed to fix this too and has not, for the same reason.



One could not learn history from architecture any more than one could learn it from books. Statues, inscriptions, memorial stones, the names of streets ? anything that might throw light upon the past had been systematically altered. (1.8.85)

George Orwell  "1984"

Offline beecanbee

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2017, 08:08:27 PM »
Thanks kathyP...  I read the linked article, and given the severe limitations of the referenced study, would have wanted to see a better study as a follow-up - since it is hard for me to fathom that having medical insurance (Medicaid) provides no significant benefit over having no insurance at all.  Logically, it doesn`t make sense, though true it may be.  I also didn`t know that Medicaid restricts a person from using their own funds for healthcare - this too is quite odd, IMO.

I found a `fact-check` article that referenced the Oregon study as well as other studies and concludes that the Oregon study was simply too flawed in that it didn`t look at mortality (Forbes points this out too), while studies that did, found Medicaid to be significantly better than no insurance coverage at all.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/is-medicaid-bad-for-your-health/

« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 08:47:06 PM by beecanbee »
"I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me."  Duncan Vandiver

A boy can do half the work of a man, but two boys do less, and three boys get nothing done at all. :)

(False) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  - Samuel Johnson

Offline Acebird

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Re: House Repealed Obamacare
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2017, 09:03:42 PM »
That free care extends to wandering into the ER because you have a snotty nose, while people die from cardiac arrest because the ER is faster for the snotty nose than going to clinic.

This happened before ACA and I ask you why does it have to happen at all?  I know one big force is the doctor union.  You can't get medical treatment in this country unless you pass by a doctor.  That is a huge stumbling block.  It should be my choice who I go to and who I listen to.  This doctor union keeps this country in the stone ages.
Brian Cardinal
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