Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: stonecroppefarm on January 21, 2011, 11:47:58 pm

Title: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on January 21, 2011, 11:47:58 pm
I am a new beekeeper with a tiny colony that I am trying to coax through the winter here in new england. I insulated the beehive (I have a single deep hive body) in December, given that I have too much time and this has been a very cold winter for us. Next, I added a 2 1/2" shim for future emergency/etc. winter feeding. This space provided room for a remote wireless temp/%humidity sensor -- I told you I had too much time. What I learned so far is that the temp in the feeding space remains in the upper forty degree range at night and can get up to 60s on a sunny day. What surprises me though is that the relative humidity shoots up to above 90% at night but drops to 70% during the day. The beehive has some ventilation. Two questions:  1) what is with the humidity? and 2) any references to beehive temperature data?

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on January 22, 2011, 12:12:11 am
Perhaps the 10deg drop in temperature at night results in the change in humidity I am seeing?

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 22, 2011, 12:28:12 am
Relative humidity is the percentage of water vapor in the air relative to the amount that would saturate the air at that temperature (and pressure).  When it gets colder, the air can hold less water at saturation.  That means that even if the amount of water vapor stays exactly the same, the relative humidity goes up as the temperature goes down.  I think that's what you are seeing.

It would be very interesting to measure the temperature outside the hive at the same time as you measure it inside.  You could learn alot about your hive design (and your bees) by comparing hourly data on the temperature differential.

It would also be cool to change the amount of ventilation and see how that affects relative humidity.  For example, you could increase and decrease ventilation on alternate days and record the humidity at the same time each day.  But be careful because if you hit 100% humidity, you will have condensation which is a quick way to kill a hive.  I think it would be better to measure humidity with your current setup and then check it with more ventilation than you currently use.  I would not decrease ventilation below what you now have.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 22, 2011, 11:44:38 am
.
What means a tiny colony?

Today I look my tiny colonies and I add in few hives  electrict heating.

In couple I put 3 W heater and in some 6 W.
Bees collect themselves around the heater and they need not eate so much.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 22, 2011, 01:44:39 pm
Is BlueBee seeing this right?  Finski is nursing his bees with electric HEAT ?????

Thomas, what do you make of this  :-D
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on January 22, 2011, 02:21:21 pm

 Hay - Don't pick on Finski  Some of us will try any thing.

Take me for example. I am a new beek [don't now any better] First year & winter keeping bees. This is what I am trying.

I built a box [with no bottom] out of 1 1/2" foil face insulation. This box is 1 1/2" larger on the sides and top then the outside of the hive. I drilled three 3/4" vent holes in the front side and pluged them with wine corks. The middle cork has a 3/8" hole drilled in it for ventilation. I also have a meat probe stuck threw the insulation near the top of the hive. It was 20 degrees below zero Thursday night and the probe read 25 degrees above zero. What I am trying to do is trap a warm bubble of air toward the top of the hive but still vent the moisture. It looks OK so far but I won"t know how well until it warms up enough to look into the hive.

John
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 22, 2011, 02:55:17 pm

I built a box [with no bottom] out of 1 1/2" foil face insulation. This box is 1 1/2" larger on the sides and top then the outside of the hive. I drilled three 3/4" vent holes in the front side and pluged them with wine corks. The middle cork has a 3/8" hole drilled in it for ventilation.

John
Is the 3/8" hole the only ventilation, or is the bottom open to the air?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 22, 2011, 02:56:25 pm
Now I know this is going to seem fairly dense, but are you using Celcius, or Fahrenheit?  My first guess is since you're in MN, it's F.  But -20° Celcius is -4° F, and -20° F is -29° C.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on January 22, 2011, 03:35:36 pm

 CapnChkn - Fahrenheit Mesured in the 1 1/2 Inch gap between the hive and the inside of the insulated box.

FRAMEshift - Yes - Only a 3/8" hole. I am running a solid bottom board,Mouse guard with five 3/8 inch holes,Two deep brood boxes,a standerd inner cover with ventalation notch and a 1 1/2 inch cover on top.
The insulated box is placed on top of this. I should also say the insulated box is blocked off at the bottom on three sides by wooden angles that are screwed to the hive stand. This prevents wind from blowing into the space between the insulated box and the hive.

John
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 22, 2011, 03:36:04 pm
Is BlueBee seeing this right?  Finski is nursing his bees with electric HEAT ?????

Thomas, what do you make of this  :-D



ha ha haaaaa. Bluebee see but does not understand  :shock:
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 22, 2011, 04:55:54 pm
Let BlueBee put on my glasses, I want to see Finski nursing his bees  :-D

@SMNBee.
If I’m envisioning what you’re doing, I like it!  It sounds very similar to what I’ve done this winter.  See this post.  http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31208.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31208.0.html)  My only suggestion would be to put foam under the box too!

@stonecrop
The humidity and temps sound fine to me.  I would advise a top vent in your system on the order of 12mm x 20mm. You want a space for the air with a really high dew point to escape without letting out too much heat.  Without a (small) top vent, I would fear your bees will get too wet.  As for instrumented hive data, my system is still rather crude, but I’m working on adding a lot more thermistors.  I’ll eventually have tons of data for you.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 22, 2011, 05:05:07 pm
.
Bluebee. I have nursed bees 48 years. What is your CV?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 22, 2011, 05:13:22 pm
I’m sorry Finski, I was just trying to inject a little American humor!

I have read a lot of your posts and know you are an expert.  You DO know a lot more about bees that I know.  I was just poking a little fun since you usually advise NOT to “nurse” your bees in the winter.  You usually say to prepare them properly in the fall and they will do fine all winter long without “nursing”.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 22, 2011, 05:22:18 pm
.
I retired from my job 2,5 months ago. Now i have time to look them for curiosity.

I have known electrict heating 45 years. 7 years ago I tried myself. I am just interested to see what have happened since September.

.i think that varroa has made harms to wintering hives and some colonies are very small even if they were normal in Autumn.

After these years it is difficult to find any intresting from those bees.

2 months ago early winter surprised us and i had trickled only half of my hives. Just now i tirickle the rest.


Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 22, 2011, 05:37:30 pm
Finski, now that you’re retired hopefully you can spend more time on the computer passing along some of your knowledge to us young bees.  We love you here.  I always look forward to reading your posts. 
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on January 22, 2011, 07:58:36 pm
An update from stonecroppe (Ron) on hive temp and humidity. the initial data was premature and posted too late in the evening, those born after 1950 may not understand this. what is happening is that in the morning the inner temp is low (today 42.5deg, humidity 75%, note, outside temp 19 deg.) as day progresses the inner temp rises to 48 deg (nice), humidity to 94% (a little concerning), outside temp 26 deg (cold day).

this is the critical part. the hive is purposefully located in a mini-climate just south of a large south facing stonewall. mini-climate? for example, today, sunny, when outside temp at 11AM was 26deg, the temp recorded outside the south facing entrance side of the hive body was 53 deg (27deg above the ambient). of course, at night this effect goes away.

here is my theory -- at night at this time of the year the night temps are below the 40ish deg temps in the hive, these days much lower and since warm air rises when the outside temp is lower, the hive has ventilation from the entrance to the vent in the top telescoping cover. cool dryer air is drawn in and the warmer high humidity air is vented out. However, during the day in this mini-climate the outside air is warmer (53deg today) than the air inside the hive (48 deg every day). this, I believe, blocks ventilation and  traps the buildup of humidity in the hive.  All comments, well most anyway, welcomed .....Ron
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 22, 2011, 09:05:17 pm
Ron, your hypothesis makes sense to me.  My foam hives are probably all like that too, I’m not alarmed, my bees look fine and the innards look dry.  Have you looked at the bees?  Do they look fine?  Plenty of stores?  Not too many dead bees?  Little to no black mold?  Is the hive innards relatively dry?  Unfortunately I can’t report to you my humidity because I’m not measuring it.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 22, 2011, 09:33:34 pm
Hey Ron.  (got your PM  :-D)   If your remote thermometer is reading the same temp as the vent area, then I would say you are correct.  With no temperature differential and no strong wind, there will be no air movement.  That's quite a micro-climate you've got there.

Of course, one of the drawbacks to an insulated hive is a slow warm-up in the morning.  But if you remove the insulation in the Spring, there's no real problem.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: backyard warrior on January 22, 2011, 10:05:51 pm
.
I retired from my job 2,5 months ago. Now i have time to look them for curiosity.

I have known electrict heating 45 years. 7 years ago I tried myself. I am just interested to see what have happened since September.

.i think that varroa has made harms to wintering hives and some colonies are very small even if they were normal in Autumn.

After these years it is difficult to find any intresting from those bees.

2 months ago early winter surprised us and i had trickled only half of my hives. Just now i tirickle the rest.



   Finski im with you 100% on the varroa dwindling the cluster in the fall and thus the bees cant keep their temp in harsh cold weather
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 23, 2011, 02:48:14 am
Ron, your hypothesis makes sense to me.  My foam hives are probably all like that too, I’m not alarmed, my bees look fine and the innards look dry.  Have you looked at the bees?  Do they look fine?  Plenty of stores?  Not too many dead bees?  Little to no black mold?  Is the hive innards relatively dry?  Unfortunately I can’t report to you my humidity because I’m not measuring it.

British beekeepers do not understand the meaning of insulation and moisture.
They add ventilaton when they want to dry up the hive.

Like bluebee tells, a little rise in hive temperature decreases relative moisture. That is insulaton which hinder the heat escaping.

My electrict experiment just tell what the heat means to bees. Electrict is more expencive than sugar. I get double cost for wintering from that.

Last winter was very hard. It was -20C when i opened the nuc cover . Thre was a twist size cluster which filled half of the 4 frame hive. The other half was filled with snow, which was from bees respiration.  bees were in good condition and I put 3 W heating there.


Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 24, 2011, 09:14:50 am
Of course, you all realize that much of the above speculation and opinion is entirely dependant on location, right? :)

Mine too :evil:

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 24, 2011, 09:45:07 am
Last winter was very hard. It was -20C when i opened the nuc cover . Thre was a twist size cluster which filled half of the 4 frame hive. The other half was filled with snow, which was from bees respiration.  bees were in good condition and I put 3 W heating there.

Wow.  Finski is opening a nuc at -20C  (-4F.)  Most folks are afraid to open a full hive at less than 10C (50F).    I'd really like to hear what experience others have had in short-term opening of hives at low temps.

Finski, when you open hives at low temperatures, what does the cluster do?  Do the bees break cluster or just sit there and buzz?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 24, 2011, 09:55:32 am
British beekeepers do not understand the meaning of insulation and moisture.
They add ventilaton when they want to dry up the hive.

I think that in warmer climates like North Carolina, the use of insulation is a little different.  Top insulation does not change the overall  temperature of the hive, because ventilation is more important in determining what the overall temperature will be.  But top insulation makes the top warmer than the sides.  That moves condensation to the sides where it can run off without dripping on the cluster.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 24, 2011, 10:15:59 am
Quote
Bees collect themselves around the heater and they need not eate so much.

Finski, wasn’t it you that was preaching bees eat less when it is colder and more when it is warmer?

Moisture is better vented from the bottom so a draft is not created.  When you let warm air out you cause cold air to come in.  One cannot happen without the other.  Moisture on the other hand does not need air flow to dissipate.  It will travel in all directions equally.  So an open bottom will let the moisture out and if the top is closed no cold air will come in.


Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 24, 2011, 10:30:53 am
Its actually a FACT, that bees will consume less as it gets colder (at a certain point they just CAN'T move until a warm up and NO I don't know what that point/temp is....cold I guess ;)), so much so that they will starve, haven't we been over all this fairly recently???

The lowest temp I've ever opened one of my own hives was 30 F, sunny with no wind.  The colony did fine come Spring.  I opened to feed and am glad I did.

I was inside this particular hive with cover off for less than 5 minutes. I'm quicker now, even though I'm older :?

I've gone in others many times at 35 F with no losses due to such checking.  My bees are usually flying in 35F and sunny weather while cluster is still in place.  

35F "seems" to be the temp "my" bees are most willing to risk cleansing and undertaking duties, but that's JUST ME and MINE.

I am waiting for just such a day right now, and it sounds like it may occur Friday, if we can believe the "experts." :)

If Finski has really been inside his hives at -4 then perhaps we're all being too cautious.

All said, Northern Wisconsin has had a comparatively mild winter this season, I think you folks South and East got alot of it instead ;)  Maybe it will all go back to normal next year,, right?????

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 24, 2011, 11:11:13 am
Finski, wasn’t it you that was preaching bees eat less when it is colder and more when it is warmer?

There are two reasons why the bees consume food in the winter.  They eat to provide energy to move around and they eat to warm the hive.  If it's warm enough to move around and fly, then reducing the temperature so they stop moving would reduce food consumption.  So colder means less consumption in that particular temperature range.  But more generally, if it's too cold to move then they consume more food as it gets colder in order to maintain hive warmth.
Quote
  Moisture on the other hand does not need air flow to dissipate.  It will travel in all directions equally. 

Don't think so.  When we say moisture, we are generally talking about water vapor in the air.... the relative humidity.   So moisture moves with the air because it's part of the air.  Once it condenses out as liquid water it flows downhill only.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 24, 2011, 11:45:35 am
.
That old plaa plaa with common sence. Ventilation and heat issues are researched well.

I do not start again.

My bees like warm and they have not moisture proplems.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 24, 2011, 12:55:27 pm
I agree with Finski, my bees are doing just fine in their warmer and dryer insulated hives.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 24, 2011, 01:43:31 pm
Quote
Don't think so.  When we say moisture, we are generally talking about water vapor in the air.... the relative humidity.   So moisture moves with the air because it's part of the air.  Once it condenses out as liquid water it flows downhill only.


does not need air flow to dissipate

Of course air flow will transfer more moisture from one area to another but in a dead airspace where there is no air current it will move in all directions.  If you create a chimney effect you essentially cause a draft.  Every cubic foot of warm air that leaves the hive will be replaced with an equal amount of cold air.  There is no avoiding that.  So I am inclined to believe it is better to have an open bottom with no air flow to let the moisture (vapor) escape the hive.  Maybe I am wrong…
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 24, 2011, 02:31:32 pm
So I am inclined to believe it is better to have an open bottom with no air flow to let the moisture (vapor) escape the hive.  Maybe I am wrong…
I'm saying that water vapor is just a component of the air.  It is a gas, not a liquid.  It does not dissipate or move anywhere unless the air moves.  If it condenses to a liquid, it could soak into the wood or run down out of the hive.  But as long as it's a gas, it moves with the other gases that constitute air.  

How can you have an open bottom without air flow?  If it's open, the wind results in volume exchanges of the air in the hive.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 24, 2011, 02:34:42 pm

Of course air flow will transfer more moisture from one area to another but in a dead airspace where there is no air current it will move in all directions.

If the hive is in a shelter, which have no air flow, the colonies get a bad nosema.

If the hive has 25 kg food stores, it generates 10 litre water via respiration, That is the water which you arrange out from the hive during half a year, and of course 15kg carbon diokside too.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 24, 2011, 03:50:42 pm
Quote
It does not dissipate or move anywhere unless the air moves.


Do a little research on gases and how they mix.  Your statement is false.  In the case of moisture, higher moisture moves in the direction of less moist air.  Just like heat transfers to cold.  There doesn't need to be air flow.  Think of a coke bottle with a little water in it.  The water will dry up without any air flow.

Quote
How can you have an open bottom without air flow?  If it's open, the wind results in volume exchanges of the air in the hive.


There is very little air flow next to the ground even in high wind situations.  If you cover the bottom of a hive with snow there is virtually no air flow.  Now bear in mind that that does not mean there are no changes of gases (oxygen or co^2) or moisture for instance.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on January 25, 2011, 01:40:14 am
First, I am not sure sure about my hypothesis, maybe.

next, BlueBee, I will checkout as much as I can Tuesday if temps are not too bad.

And FRAMEshift, about the warmup, I said I have too much time. the 2in insulating jacket is in four parts a top, a bottom , a back portion that covers the back and 2/3s of each side and a front portion that covers the front and 1/3 of each side. since the front  is facing south (sun) I slide the front portion off each morning that there is sufficient sun and watch the temp in the hive begin to climb rather rapidly and as you pointed out, on the sunny day or two that I did not get out to remove the front portion of the insulation the hive temp increased significantly slower.

This surprised me, on the very cold night we had I threw a rather heavy movers blanket over the hive around 7PM when the hive temp had dropped to 42deg F, immediately the hive temp began to rise up to 45 deg. I can't believe that the blanket alone would make such a difference. could the bees have sensed my presence and the motion of the blanket and become a bit excited?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 25, 2011, 11:46:36 am


This surprised me, on the very cold night we had I threw a rather heavy movers blanket over the hive around 7PM when the hive temp had dropped to 42deg F, immediately the hive temp began to rise up to 45 deg. I can't believe that the blanket alone would make such a difference. could the bees have sensed my presence and the motion of the blanket and become a bit excited?

One winter I put winter plancets over the hives. I wonder why one hive start to fly out. I put a digital trermometer inside the hive and temp was +42C / 107 F

Next morning temp was 35C / 95F

24 hours later temp was normal winterin temp 23C/ 73F

I just walked around the hive and I did not even touched it. I opened the cover and cluster was totally spreaded in the hive.

What ever, if you look from internet the effects of cold has been monitored very well along decades.

.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 25, 2011, 12:31:44 pm
It sounds like Finski has found a new dinner entrée over there in Finland:  Fried bees and beans  :-D

I agree with Finski about the dangers of covering a foam hive.  If you block the air vents with a blanket (and reduce air infiltration), you’re forcing more of the bee heat to try to escape thru the R10 walls of the insulation.  Heat doesn’t pass very quickly thru R10 walls and hence the heat starts to build up in the hive.  As Finski says, you have to be careful or it can get too hot, but 45F is fine.

Ron, I know you’re very worried about the temperatures and humidity, and that’s great, but what are the bees telling you?  When you get a warmer day there in NE, take a peak.  I bet they’re doing great.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on January 25, 2011, 10:40:05 pm
BlueBee, thanks for the response and encouragement, I think the bees are doing all right. It turns out that they should not be alive, it was about 3lbs of bees from a removal with some brood comb, no honey, the remover kept that of course. this was end of August so we had no hope for wintering over, but it was hands on experience for a novice (me). I fed them, they consumed 3 lbs of sugar a day in a 1:1 syrup. and probably more than doubled in colony size, still only 7, 8 or 9 lbs of bees?  When I told the gentleman that gave me the bees end of august that they were still alive early Jan. he could not believe this.

I said I have more time than I need, not really so, but being inquisitive will be the death of me, always was, and since I had the sensor need I say more.

now here is the mystery. a common observation -- today mid afternoon temp 35deg F, inside hive temp 46deg. eight hours later the outside temp has dropped to 24deg, inside hive temp has risen to 51 deg. WHAT IS WITH THIS? outside temp drops, shouldn't the temp in the hive? why are the bees raising the temperature?

any ideas anyone?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 25, 2011, 11:26:48 pm
.
Bluebee, it is interesting to read what Finski says. I did not understand a bit.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 25, 2011, 11:29:25 pm
Ron, I agree with Finski. 

I would also add what you're seeing is the beauty of insulation and a good sign from your bees….your bees are making heat, they’re alive, they’re alive!!!  I assume you’ve also verified they’re alive by putting your ear up to the hive?

The heat the bees are generating, does not readily escape when you’ve got them enclosed in a home with R10 insulated walls, basement, and ceiling!  That means the watts of energy the bees are generating is going to warm the hive (as well as the cluster) before it escapes out your top vent.   So the bees are going to feel like they’re living in Georgia as opposed to New England.  They’re not going to experience any sharp temperature changes in that much foam.

With foam, you’ll see the temperature lags you’re seeing due to the thermal mass inside the hive and the fact that heat does not go in or out of the system quickly with R10 walls.  This means they don’t warm up as fast in the morning and they don’t cool down very fast at night.  They’re not going to experience any sharp temperature changes in that much foam.

I used to live in New England (Westboro and Durham), I agree with your local BK, I think your small colony of bees would be toast if not insulated.   Just make sure your setup isn’t trapping too much moisture when you peak at them and make sure they have food.  In a foam hive they don’t eat as much so you’re probably ok on food.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Countryboy on January 26, 2011, 12:13:40 am
Ideal wintering temp is supposedly about 0 C for maximum efficiency of honey.  Any warmer or colder and the bees eat more honey.  I have heard Canadian beekeepers who overwinter inside barns that they have a little better overwintering % when they keep the building 3-5 C.  The extra honey the bees eat is minimal, and the added survival easily pays for the cost of the honey consumed.

I have heard that a winter cluster with higher varroa will have a higher internal temperature.  Call it a 'fever' of sorts.  For whatever reason, this seems to be one of the natural responses of bees fighting varroa.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 26, 2011, 03:44:36 am
.
I have never heard about ideal wintering

in  cellar or in warmed chest wintering the temp must be under 7C and dark + mechanical ventilation

hives prode quite much heat.

 
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 09:26:41 am
Quote
today mid afternoon temp 35deg F, inside hive temp 46deg. eight hours later the outside temp has dropped to 24deg, inside hive temp has risen to 51 deg. WHAT IS WITH THIS? outside temp drops, shouldn't the temp in the hive? why are the bees raising the temperature?


What type of sensor are you using and where is it placed in reference to the bees?  I suppose this experiment is tickling your fancy but if you can't see what is happening inside the hive the data is not very useful.

What you need is a trocar camera with a temperature probe on the end where the lens is.  You have to be able to steer the lens where you want it to go through the hive and take temps at many locations.  Then the analysis will be much easier and probably make more sense.  BTW the system I speak of runs from 10K-30K (dollars).
Another system that can be used is an infrared camera that is calibrated to the color gradient.  these systems are also quite pricey.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 26, 2011, 10:17:05 am
..

It seems to be true   that new information adds pain
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 26, 2011, 01:20:59 pm
AceBird, I think the best system for checking Ron's bees is probably Ron’s eyes :-D
 
Knowing it is warmer in the hive than outside is always a good thing.  Heat (energy) is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes form…..as I know you are aware from reading your various posts (COE).  If there’s excess heat coming from a hive, something is changing the chemical energy in the honey into heat.   Usually (hopefully) that is the bees.

An interesting calculation for you though would be to compute the amount of watts the bees are generating.  That is doable since we know the inside temp, the outside temp, and the R value between them.  Once you know the wattage your bees are generating, you know the amount of stores they are consuming…since….again….energy is never created nor destroyed, it just changes forms (in this case from honey stores into heat).  If you find your bees are only generating a low amount of watts in a foam hive, you know by the laws of Physics they are not eating much honey.  Finski will confirm this from his experience too  ;)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 02:45:16 pm
http://www.unit-conversion.info/power.html (http://www.unit-conversion.info/power.html)


1 tsp (honey)= 64 cal

1 tsp = 1/16 cup  16x4 = 64 tsp= 1quart = 4096 cal per qt.

4096 cal /sec should yield 17.149 kW

I don’t know if this helps you but keep in mind that the temperature in the hive is not uniform.  It is warmest in the center of the cluster and almost equal to ambient outside the cluster.  Most of the insulating is done by the bees themselves.  That is why I said he has to know where the temperature probe is in relation to the bees.  As the bees move around that temp reading will be all over the place.

What concerns me about a plastic hive is that moisture will not pass through it as well as wood.  That includes a wood hive lined with Styrofoam insulation.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 26, 2011, 03:47:29 pm
AceBird, isn’t 17 KW-hours the energy content in the Chevy Volt battery?  Should we start running our cars off honey?  I don’t think the bees are making 17 KW  :-D 

In Ron’s foam hive, it’s probably more like 5 to 7 watts (energy content of about half frame of honey a month)

The beauty of measuring the energy output of a system is you can measure it over any spherical area (or surface geometry of your choice).  The exact location of the heat source (cluster) in the spherical area is immaterial, if you know the temperature on the inside surface of the sphere, outside surface of the sphere, and the R value going thru the sphere.  Spear = Foam hive here.  [I am making a few assumptions in that statement, which I know you are aware of; like assuming a constant gradient of heat flow thru the surface at all points.  This to make the calculations a bit simpler].

The point is, with Ron’s crude numbers and assuming a relatively even mixing of heat ON the inside surface of the foam hive, you can do the calculation without regards to the point sources of the heat in the hive (heater bees in this case).

The temperature in a foam hive, and to a much lesser extent in a wood hive, IS warmer than the outside air or you would be violating the Conservation of Energy.  Foam traps more bee heat inside though.  They are warmer.

I agree with you that moisture is not going to diffuse thru foam!  That is why we have top vents!  The air with the most moisture (highest dew point) goes out the top vent and the hive stays warm and dry.

I think Finski summed it up best when talking about his foam hives:   “My bees like warm and they have not moisture proplems.” 

BlueBee, couldn’t have said it any better!
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 04:29:15 pm
Quote
if you know the temperature on the inside surface of the sphere, outside surface of the sphere,

Is he getting an accurate reading here?  I don't think so.  The hive is not a sphere so the temperatures in the corners will be different if even if the cluster is dead center (heat source).

If I didn't screw up a decimal point it is the amount of heat in a quart of honey.  So if you have the hive on a scale and measure the weight loss of the hive (not totally accurate because of bee losses) you will have an approximation of calories consumed.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: hardwood on January 26, 2011, 04:58:51 pm
By the time ya'll figure this out all the way it'll be summer (maybe fall) again and we'll have moved on to talking about heat gain instead of heat loss :-D

Scott
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 26, 2011, 05:04:10 pm
Scott, you are sooooo right! 

AceBird, we better start our calculations for summer heat gains now  :-D
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 26, 2011, 07:06:04 pm
We just lift the cover in the summer.  It is not nearly as critical because there is no danger taking a look inside.  Well, maybe a bee sting or two.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on January 27, 2011, 12:28:11 am

FRAMEshift, I think your comment about insulating the top is important, the insulation keeps the cold outside temps from cooling the inner surface of the top where condensation would otherwise occur, sort of like condensation on the inside of a single pane window versus no condensation on an insulated double or triple pane window.

Acebird, I am using an inexpensive old radio shack temp/humidity sensor with radio transmitter to receiver in house. funny you should mention it, I just ordered two topcar cameras or whatever they are called (just kidding). Also, I built and placed a 2" shim on top of the deep hive body, this I plan to use for feeding purposes, I placed a small piece 1lb of fondant there, and this is where the temp sensor is.

two interesting observations, for a new beek anyway, today with temps in low 30s I decided to check the bees with minimal disruption of the colony, so I thought. I wanted to lift the inner cover and check to see if the bees had found the fondant I had placed in their dining area. Well what I found when I removed the outer telescoping cover was a shitload of bees pushing through the large vent hole in the inner cover. I didn't dare remove the inner cover to check the fondant, just closed up the hive. what do you think motivated the bees to congregate at the top of the frames? are they there for feeding purposes? this could pose a problem for a new beek like me. I don't know if I can remove the inner cover to place fondant on top of the frames without having a few thousand bees in flight?


the second observation -- late this evening with the wind howling I was out and went to check the weight on top of the hive. I just barely touched the weight, intentionally to test my hypothesis that whenever I am anywhere near the hive, the temp in the hive goes up. when I went into the house, as anticipated I watched the temp in the hive go from 49deg F to over 53deg like in less than 5min, along with that the %humidity increased as well. my conjecture is that anything that disrupts the hive cause bee commotion that results in an increase in metabolism, the consumption of food and the production of H2O. Sound plausable?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 27, 2011, 12:46:26 am
Ron, they’re doing a happy dance  :-D 

Great news to finally get confirmation they’re alive, they're alive!

I’ve been to Newport and Providence before but didn’t recognize your little town.  I looked it up on Google last night.  I think we’ll ALL want to come out and inspect your bees this SUMMER.  Great location, you lucky dog!
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 27, 2011, 01:16:51 am


These measurement would be usefull.  what is the meaning of solid bottom and mesh bottom. What is the temp of bof in periferia. Then with slight  wind and no wind.
Wind you make with ventilator. 

I tried mesh bottom in 6 hives, 3 one box and 3 two boxes.
One 1-bos hive starved dead and others two was nearby. In 2-box  hives 8 did not notice any special.
So in mesh floor food consumption was almost 100% bigger.

One thing is my practice. If i have 3 frame nuc and i add 3w heater nera cluster, how much the heater changes hive temperature?

Then i add 6 W heater, what is temp gradient inside the hive.

6 W may be good if out temp is -20C but near 0C it disperse the cluster.
.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 27, 2011, 09:53:33 am
Quote
Well what I found when I removed the outer telescoping cover was a shitload of bees pushing through the large vent hole in the inner cover.

Holy Cow!  Yesterday we had a warm spell 35F and saw no evidence of bee flights around the hive so we dared to pop the cover.  Exactly as you said bees all around the handle hole of the inner cover.  Also there were many dead bees nearer to the outside edges of the inner cover.  The honey patty was almost gone so I made another and for the heck of it I threw in a rotton banana.

Quote
I built and placed a 2" shim on top of the deep hive body, this I plan to use for feeding purposes, I placed a small piece 1lb of fondant there, and this is where the temp sensor is.

OK so you have picked the warmest place outside of the cluster but inside the hive to take readings.  There is little you can do for thermal loss calculations because like I said there would be quite different readings in the sidewalls of the hive compared to the top.  I still believe that these quick fluctuations are cause by groups of bees coming close to your probe and not and overall air temp for the top of the hive.  The only way you can prove that is to have multiple probes taking readings simultaneously.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 27, 2011, 05:13:49 pm
Check this out.  Three quarters down the page.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31270.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31270.0.html)

Posted by Trot:

Quote
Another falsehood I read/hear about, far too often. About loosing all that heat through the upper entrance?
I don't know how to write it down, that people will comprehend?
Bees don't heat the hive! Air around the cluster, even the surface of the cluster is just as cold as it is outside. In our parts, the inside the hive is often colder than outside. Inside the hive, it takes up to two days, often much longer, for the temperature to equalise, for the hive to became as warm or cold as the outside. Small change in weather and/or temperature are thus for bees less noticeable, if at all?
Bees only heat its own cluster, in the Winter
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 28, 2011, 09:10:36 am
That's it in a nutshell, bees don't heat their hive, they heat their cluster. 

Trot would/should know and I concur.  Thanks for the re-post.

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 10:18:58 am
That's it in a nutshell, bees don't heat their hive, they heat their cluster.  


You old fart " Human does not heat their home. They heat their oven"


3 the most stupid logans I have never heard

1) Cold does not kill bees but moisture does  ..................ash :-x

2) "bees don't heat their hive, they heat their cluster"

3) I put insulation onto north wall because cold comes from north


I do not remember how many years I have explained the meaning of heat and insulation in this forum, but it has no meaning.

In Alaska many beeks prefer to kill the hives on purpose when they follow  those idiot slogans

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8ScF4GoZBjc/SAuh4aK57FI/AAAAAAAAAOA/ogazK-HVw0s/s400/iglu02.jpg)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 10:38:58 am
.
Igloo snow as insulator

Wiki:
Although igloos are usually associated with all Inuit, they were predominantly constructed by people of Canada's Central Arctic and Greenland's Thule area. Other Inuit people tended to use snow to insulate their houses, which were constructed from whalebone and hides. Snow is used because the air pockets trapped in it make it an insulator. On the outside, temperatures may be as low as −45 °C (−49 °F), but on the inside the temperature may range from −7 °C (19 °F) to 16 °C (61 °F) when warmed by body heat alone.[4]

The Central Inuit, especially those around the Davis Strait, lined the living area with skin, which could increase the temperature within from around 2 °C (36 °F) to 10–20 °C (50–68 °F).

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Course Bee on January 28, 2011, 11:00:51 am
Very interesting Finski. Who would have thought I would be learning this much about snows insulation properties on the bee forum. My wife would be impressed!

Tim
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 28, 2011, 11:33:34 am
Here we go again, comparing bees and humans :roll:

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 11:37:25 am
Here we go again, comparing bees and humans :roll:

thomas

Think about your home how you stay alive there in winter?

If you have cold, what do you do? - you shiver your self so much that the whole house is soon warm!

( wife takes care the rest : TWIST MORE KILO WATS)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 11:40:50 am
Quote
when warmed by body heat alone.

What are you suggesting Mr. Finski?  Should we climb inside our hives to keep the bees warm?  I don't think anyone is suggesting that bees don't give off heat.  But the analogy between a bee and a human is ridiculous.  Ten people sitting in a room eating dinner put out 6000 btu's.  That is more than enough to raise the temp in that room 40 degrees.  Your thermostat on the wall will react to that and shut off your heating system.

In a hive enormous amounts of energy are dissipated when the bee breath changes state by condensing on the cover running down the walls and out the hive.  All those btu's absorbed by the water went out the hive without a chance of raising the temperature  in the hive.  Anything that went out as ventilation is also gone.  Have you seen any water droplets on your ceiling in the dining room and running down your walls when you have people over for dinner?

Where is the corelation here?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 28, 2011, 11:41:14 am
Finski, the Laws of Physics are on your side if that is any consolation  :)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 28, 2011, 11:43:16 am
Finski; You're proving my point for me brother, I'm not a honeybee, neither are you :-D  

As for me, when I get cold I just put more wood on the fire ;)  I don't think bees have a close option.

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 28, 2011, 11:46:03 am
Finski, the Laws of Physics are on your side if that is any consolation  :)

Hmmmmm, which law of physics do you refer to?

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 28, 2011, 11:58:03 am
In a hive enormous amounts of energy are dissipated when the bee breath changes state by condensing on the cover running down the walls and out the hive.  All those btu's absorbed by the water went out the hive without a chance of raising the temperature  in the hive.  
Speaking of the laws of physics, you've got that reversed.  When the "bee breath" changes from gas to liquid and condenses, it gives up heat to the surface it condenses on.  Condensation heats the hive surfaces. 
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 28, 2011, 12:04:37 pm
AceBird, you need a new calculator. 

Although we Americans are getting super sized, 10 of us in a room eating dinner does not put out 6000 btu/hour.   With a good calculator, you will find that a human eating a 2000 calorie diet (what I eat), has an average energy output of 100watts.  There are 3.41BTUs/hr per watt.  So 10 USDA sized humans are going to generate 1000 watts of heat (3410 btu/hr).  I guess if you have a room full of 400lb people eating 4000 calories a day, then they might output your 6000 btus.

Just imagine how much more heat our super sized 5.3 cell bees must be making  :-D 

I use the same Laws of Physics as Frameshift and Finski
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 28, 2011, 12:12:53 pm
Well BlueBee, perhaps the diners are Italian and it takes them 2 hours to eat dinner.  :-D  (He said 6000 BTU, not 6000 BTU/hr)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 12:20:15 pm
Step Three

Calculate the heat generated by occupants, allow 600 BTU per person.
Occupant BTU = number of people x 600


http://www.tombling.com/cooling/heat-load-calculations.htm (http://www.tombling.com/cooling/heat-load-calculations.htm)

Oh my god, have you ever designed a heating system?  I am rusty I admit.  It has been 35 years or better.  Maybe you should have learned to use a slide rule first then you could handle a calculator.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 28, 2011, 12:23:40 pm
Ouch  :-D

I thought slide rules were only good for digging dead bees out of COLD wooden hives?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 12:30:10 pm
Quote
When the "bee breath" changes from gas to liquid and condenses, it gives up heat to the surface it condenses on.  Condensation heats the hive surfaces.

Exactly, the roof and then it passes through the roof and outside.  Heat rises.  If you put your radiators in a ceiling you will freeze your A$$.  The condensate also has heat.  If you don't believe me check out a steam radiator system (and not with your hand or you will be sorry).
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 12:30:53 pm


What are you suggesting Mr. Finski?  Should we climb inside our hives to keep the bees warm?  I don't think anyone is suggesting that bees don't give off heat.  But the analogy between a bee and a human is ridiculous.  Ten people sitting in a room eating dinner put out 6000 btu's.  That is more than enough to raise the temp in that room 40 degrees.  Your thermostat on the wall will react to that and shut off your heating system.


Where is the corelation here?

What ever. But how I can explain these things to humans who cannot undestand the meaning of

source of heat
insulation
ventilation
relative moisture
dew point
respiration moisture
condensation
meaning of wind

All is stupid mesh from year to year....

catch respiration moisture of newspaper piece and handfull of sugar
 15 mm hive wall
ventilation holes everywhere
more cold, less energy needed

****

Do you take moisture away from your room with sugar?

When I was a shild, my parents put inside window gap a match box that it takes moisture from air.

Then California beeks hive adviced to NY beeks to to ventilate and insulate.

Yesterday my hive are had temp -27C and now it is -3C.

Los Angekes forecast http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Los_Angeles.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Los_Angeles.html)

Detroit forecast  http://www.wunderground.com/US/MI/Detroit.html

Anchorage forecast http://www.wunderground.com/US/AK/Anchorage.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/AK/Anchorage.html)

Helsinki Finland http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/02974.html (http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/02974.html)

.

.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 28, 2011, 02:00:37 pm
Hoo-Boy!  I actually have seen a controversy of the theory of "Bee Heating" not too much unlike the arguments concerning whether the Dinosaur died out or evolved into birds! 8-)

All I can say is, from what I have gathered, these rules hold dear:

Finski is no doubt right by experience, but I can never tell if his arguments are for or against his subject.  The fact he is getting results indicates by way of the law of pragmatism (If it works, it's true!  If something shouldn't work, but does nonetheless, then it's probably true.) that he knows what he is talking about, and is correct in these circumstances.

It's not possible for the bees to heat the interior of the hive body by default, that would be impractical.  It is practical to heat the cluster and assume it will create an environment within the cavity that would be more survivable, which is how I understand the theory.

One of my favorite words, to disambiguate, theory, as I'm using it, is in the Scientific way.  Gravitation has theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation#History_of_gravitational_theory) behind it, and saying "Theoretical" doesn't mean it's "not real." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misconception#Evolution)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 02:23:55 pm
Quote
It is practical to heat the cluster and assume it will create an environment within the cavity that would be more survivable,

I think it is an assumption to assume this is practical.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 02:38:05 pm
.

Heh boy!

 I see that you live in Tennesee and this is your winter:
http://www.wunderground.com/US/TN/Murfreesboro.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/TN/Murfreesboro.html)

today half cloudy
6° C | 1° C
   
half cloudy
12° C | 2° C
   
cloudy
12° C | 2° C
   
cloudy
11° C | 4° C

That is our May weather.

That is our May weather.

Do not open the hive until temps are in a livable range - bees stay on their frames in -10C. They have not a single brood there. They have crystallized snow and ice inside the hive.

Finski is no doubt right by experience, but I can never tell if his arguments are for or against his subject.  The fact he is getting results indicates by way of the law of pragmatism (If it works, it's true!  If something shouldn't work, but does nonetheless, then it's probably true.) that he knows what he is talking about, and is correct in these circumstances.

I have almost 50 years experience and I have studied these things in university 5 years, for example how plants and animals survive in Polar Circle nature.



I am not telling jokes here like most of you do.

.  It is practical to heat the cluster and assume it will create an environment within the cavity that would be more survivable, which is how I understand the theory.

I understand very well the theory. It is needless to argue about it. Others have researched that several times. There is no mystery in it.

The cluster has core temp 23C in winter, and after a month they have some brood. The heat rises to 32-35 C. I may push the digital thermometer into the cluster and I see same temp what researches speak.

The temp of outer bee layer is about 12C.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf (http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf)

in 8C temp the bee do not wake up with its own help.  All these can be read in numerous books and researches.

That above is roughly said without decimals.

Part of cluster may die when another part continues life to next spring.

There is no need to know bee by bee what happens there. This is rough science. When I put in winter condition a big hive, there may be a cup full of bees after cleansing flight. Nosema mostly kill bees and it is unnecessary to argue winter cluster size and its temperature. They are under snow and it is needles to go listen them and wake them up every time.

The hive saves energy and protects the cluster and especially its outer layer.

It is same with human houses. If some one has poorly insulated house, we use to say "He lives like   in a twig hut".

I have seen in TV the structure of your houses in those "repairing and selling programs". That style of insulating is here out of law. You cannot get permission to make house if it has not a proper insulation.

And if you do not so and you do not heat enough, water pipes and sewage pipes will blow out by the pressure of icing. That happened this winter in Ireland.

My fried family visited in Mexico City. They shivered every nigh there like bees.

We have outside -20C but at home we have +23C.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 03:34:31 pm
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE FROM THE AREA WHERE, I SUPPOSE, HIVES HAVE BROOD OVER WINTER

 Most commonly, bees are overwintered in 2 deep boxes full of bees, pollen and honey. About 80-90 pounds of honey per hive insures an adequate winter food supply.

insulation wrapped hives
     


     I wrapped my hives in a blanket of insulation. This is the first time I have insulated hives. Insulating hives to conserve heat is controversial. The concern is that decreased circulation with insulation will cause an increase in humidity inside the hives. The increased humidity results in condensation forming and cold water dripping on the bees.

MY OPINION

The consumption of the hive is so big that it must have brood inside. It is very differnet in my area because with that consumption hives will die in long winter.

Insulation rises heat inside and decreases relatuve moisture. Adding  temp makes hive dryer.

cold water dripping on the bees ---> it means that in inner cover there is weak insulation. Cover is cold and moist air condensates above the cluster.

The gap between inner and outer cover need good ventilation too that moisture leave the gap with the aid of wind.

It gies wrong if you keep in the inner cover a ventilation hole. Warm air rises against the cold outercover and rains back to the inner cover insulation. Upper entrance must be in front wall of the hive and moisture get out via it.  Even after summer nights I see that condensated water dipps from uppe entrance hole. Bees dry up the neactar and vapour meets the dew point at door.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 03:34:57 pm
Quote
The temp of outer bee layer is about 12C.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf (http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/reproduccion/11_reproduccion_endotermia_invierno.pdf)

in 8C temp the bee do not wake up with its own help.  All these can be read in numerous books and researches.

That above is roughly said without decimals.

This same study keeps getting quoted.  There is a lot of technical crap to weed though to fine anything that your are preaching.  As yet I haven’t found anything that supports your verbiage.  I almost hate to mention this but you do realize that a Flair camera cannot read air temperature.  In can only read radiation emitted from a surface that has mass.  It is optical and must be focused to that plane.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 03:46:25 pm
.
Sorry Acebird but you have not enough theoretical knowledge to undestand that crap.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 28, 2011, 04:07:25 pm
As yet I haven’t found anything that supports your verbiage.
It is not my fault. If I say something wrong, I have presented to you real rsearches and read those, not my mad mind.


 
Quote
I almost hate to mention this but you do realize that a Flair camera cannot read air temperature. 

You don't understand the basic. That's it.

Quote
In can only read radiation emitted from a surface that has mass.  It is optical and must be focused to that plane.

The heat radiation is called too infra red (below visible red color radiation)

With infrared camera you make visible the differencies ot the temperature. It s difficut to measure the queen thorax withnormal thermometer but with infrared it can be seen that it is 42C when the queen land onto swarm.

When the swarm is ready to continue its way, it rises quickly temperature to 39C which means "rapid flying temperature".  It has been revieled with inrared camera.



Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 28, 2011, 07:25:39 pm
Quote
Sorry Acebird but you have not enough theoretical knowledge to undestand that crap.

OK you win.  You must be right.

Problem is I read through sections of it, don't disagree with what is written.  But for the live of me I can't make any correlations between what you claim and what is written in the research paper.  It's like you are flagging something in front of somebody and hoping they will explain it to you because you don't know what it means.

So at this point I going to say you win.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 29, 2011, 12:19:46 am
HaHaHaHahahahaha!!!

My brother is just like this guy!  One time I told him the Black Hills of South Dakota was the religious center of North America, and he spent 3 days telling me about the "Sioux," and how they didn't have any history in the state.  Finski, my friend, I said that.

I have 35 years of experience with bees, though around 30 of those have been looking at hives from over the fence, in the field from the road, or telling folks not to worry about the swarm because if they just leave the bees alone, they will probably go away on their own.  I have 3 empty hives right now which I need to fill with bees for whatever reasons, but mostly because I wanted to use them for pollination.

You don't have to keep pounding that you live in a cold place.  I know how cold it gets up in the northern parts of the world.  As I mentioned South Dakota, I was born in the capital.  It's pronounced Peer, and not Pee-Air.  Finland doesn't have a monopoly on cold weather!

Relax!  You don't need to carry a "Chip on your shoulder."  We aren't saying your beekeeping wisdom is questionable.

As for bees and cold, these bees lived out in the barn, in the shade, for 3 years without management until I tried to get them in a KTBH in August.  What I don't have experience with is Small Hive Beetles, Varroa, and Tracheal mites.  They absconded, and died out in October.  The playing field has changed, and I find everything I knew has as well.

(http://www.captainchicken.com/swarm/image/tnail/oldhive.jpg)

Acebird, the options are:

Of these basic options, I would state the most practical would be to heat the cluster.  The other two options lead to death or extra work.  I would assume the heat given off by the bees and trapped in the cavity is incidental and would serve to give the bees a better chance because they would not need to burn the extra calories to keep the cluster warm as they would if the temperature was, estimating, 20 to 40 degrees colder.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 29, 2011, 02:30:36 am
.
Sorry guys.

Hive temp issues has been reported in internet with your mother language. You need not invent a wheel or read my wrong information.

You write all kind of crap and blame me that I know best and Finland is only cold place. PAH!

Those cold researches has been done in US bee laboratories. No sence to start measure in nature what is going on and get expencive instrumenst.


Why I bother you is that Florida and Los Angeles beekeepers give their advices to Alaska and all is pure nonsence.

Sorry that I came again to disturb your  big egos and big inventions.

Mostly question is not that someone tells wrong things. Main point is that if some one really needs advices he is interested and want to learn. In this from there are planety of guys who only want to be a king on the dung heap.

I have left this forum couple of times before because I have better to do than fight with dung kings.

(http://wautsi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Maailman-suurin-lumilinko.jpg)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 29, 2011, 08:32:03 am
Finski,

PLEASE don’t leave us.  Those of us in the Northern USA really appreciate your knowledge and experience because we know where Finland is located!   We know you know what you’re talking about.  Please don’t let a few distracters drive you away, I’m sure there is a HUGE silent majority of readers who really values your input and experience.  Finski, PLEASE stay with us.   

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 29, 2011, 10:11:39 am
He'll be back, he really loves us all, even those who argue :-D

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 29, 2011, 10:18:10 am
Quote
Acebird, the options are:

•Heating the entire cavity
•Heating the cluster
•Not heating anything

Please explain the middle option, heat the cluster.

We will assume this is for the hobbyist with no more than 10 hives and they are accessible through the whole winter season.  That alone is going to weed out a large percentage of this forum but if we don’t make these assumptions it doesn’t appear to me that this game plan is practical.

First question:
How does one accomplish this task?

Is this going to be something like what has been discussed on this site?  Stick a Christmas tree bulb in the hive and that is it?  Will it be a sophisticated temperature controlled device or just a constant burning bulb?  Please give details on how this is done.

Next question:
What is the logic?
If a small amount of heat is the answer couldn’t you just move your hives 200 miles south for the winter?  In Florida they call humans that move south “snow birds”, we could call them “bee birds”.  The thing about snow birds is that they buzz around scantily dressed down there and then have a hard time acclimating when they come back to their home land.  Wouldn’t we have to make sweaters for the bee birds when we bring them back?

Last question:
Is there a guarantee when using this option?
What are the claims?  I am never going to loose a hive, my loses will drop to 10% (one hive), or I will get more honey, but it will cost more.  Any other claims?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 29, 2011, 10:36:28 am
 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 29, 2011, 11:53:20 am
Quote
Acebird, the options are:

•Heating the entire cavity
•Heating the cluster
•Not heating anything

Please explain the middle option, heat the cluster.
 Any other claims?



I returned yesterday home from a small surgery operation. I had a neighbour (70 y) who took five steps from his bed and he was hopelesly lost.

It took me 12 hours  to notice that when at night 3 a'clock he left his bed and asked me after 10 seconds, where are our beds, there or there. Nursers took him to bed again but in 30 seconds he jumped  up like a bow and was again lost.

That is really interesting life: to meet all the time new friends and new places! ...Options, options....



.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 29, 2011, 12:08:41 pm
He'll be back, he really loves us all, even those who argue :-D

thomas

Depends how much you stand amusing. My surgery wound in my belly does not stand. It must be in rest 1 month.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 30, 2011, 01:14:59 am
Finski, I don't mean to offend.  Twice I have made the statement that the bees aren't heating the inside of the hive, and you have posted directly afterwards telling me about the weather where I am currently living.  You see, I know what you mean by "It's cold here."  I have lived where the Indians are fascinated by ice (It burns!  It is not Hot!), and I have lived where the radio gives the weather report as, "The high today will be seven below."

Acebird, I am having trouble believing you are not familiar with the mechanics of Bee Winterizing.  It's been documented, since I don't know when, that the bees form a ball with the essential "organs" (The queen, and later the brood) of the super organism in the center.  Much like your body with all the vital organs in the core.  The bees then shiver their flight muscles to generate heat, the bees on the outside pushing into the center when chilled, the bees in the center moving out in order to keep in the "Goldilocks," to paraphrase, range.

It makes no difference where the bees are located.  The temperature needs to be the same for their survival regardless of the outside environment, and the only variable here is the number of calories burned to maintain this temperature range.

If the bees heated the inside of the cavity they build the nest in, they would choose or modify the volume of that cavity to get the best dynamics.  As it is, the cluster is at maximum size at the start of the cold season, all the bees working together to keep the inner temperature, while insulating from the outside environment with their bodies.  If the cavity needs to be kept at temperature, then the mechanism of heating by the mass of bees would drop over time as the old ones in the cluster died.

Now my original post (second in this thread) was that it was impractical for the bees to heat the inside cavity.  You responded the assumption was not practical.  I replied with an explanation of my original statement, and now I seem to be dragged into the middle of an argument about how best to keep bees from freezing.

The bees have been at this for hundreds of millions of years before you or any of the model's "10 hives" ever saw the smoke of a bee hunter's fire.  It is not necessary to keep them warm.  You seem focused on building a machine to keep bees, and the original post in this thread is about temperatures in the hive, and humidity.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 02:07:30 am
Twice I have made the statement that the bees aren't heating the inside of the hive,

 You seem focused on building a machine to keep bees, and the original post in this thread is about temperatures in the hive, and humidity.



 You really think that I cannot read or understand the issue what is said in numerous researches.  

Why a human keeps clothes? To warm them or what? Why we need to discuss on that level?

You may bye a sleeping bag where insulation value is -40C. It means that you may sleep in arctic snow without fire. http://www.backcountry.com/55-to-30-degree-down-bags (http://www.backcountry.com/55-to-30-degree-down-bags)

SEcond thing is that I am interested in machines...... I arrange my hives for winter in September, feed  and I do not touch them untill in Marsh when I dig then out off snow fo cleansing flight. Our snow melts away in April. They eate sugar the whole winter from September to May. In May willows start to give food.

After 48 years I do not undertand nothing... HOw do you get 80 kg average honey yields if you do not understand nothing. P ractically I have not lost hives for starving since I start to use insulated hives.

FIrst I used American style single wall wooden Langstrot  boxes. The food consumption was 50% more than in insulated hives.




Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 02:28:47 am
.
Why Apis mellifera survives in cold


The basic reason how honeybee survive is when we compare it to other Apis-family bees.

The great invention of wintering with bee was that
*  it started to live in tree cavities.
* it drops down the core temperature of cluster from 36C to 23C

IN Japan there lives Apis cerana.
*It makes a hive in open place and only 20% lives inside the cavity.
* They keep 36C temp during winter.

Other Apis family bees live in jungles and they have one comb in open air.

Apis cerana really heaths its cluster without shelter and it cannot concure cold climates.

Now you see the meaning of the "box" where bees live.

In Australia bee may live in rabbit tunnels like Africanized bees in USA. But that happens in warm climate.


You need not use much google when you find good reseaches how bees really winter them selves.

I learned moisture thing 40 years ago. I had 6 one box hives. One had upper entrance open and 5 had not. I covered them snow like it was said in those days.

The hive which had the upper entrance open , was alive in spring and others 5 was shut, and they died.
so simple to learn...

From machine systems I learned that I may achieve 3 times quicker spring build up with pollen patty and electrict bottom heating compared to natural build up. It means that instead of one yield month I have now 2 months because big hives are ready to forage surplus earlier.  Yes, all beekeepers say me grazy but what then. I have read what ever insults for that.  

However I have learned more with my experiments than 99% beekeepers can ever think at 60 degree latitude.

But in summary: a beekeeper need not to be very wise. Bees take care themselves and fogare that nectar what is in flowers.

When you know little, you know all.





Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 02:56:36 am
Natural hive places of Apis cerana in Osaka Japan

http://homepage3.nifty.com/jhb/english/sizensou.htm (http://homepage3.nifty.com/jhb/english/sizensou.htm)

(1994-2003.3) location   number
Gravestone..........   ..........   ...............   57
Garrets of temples and house..................      32
Space between natural rocks or bricks   .........15
Hollow of old woods......................      15
Open space under the eaves or branches of trees.   16
Under floor of houses or barns ........   16
In the small shrine   ........1
In the waste pipe   .........1
Core of coiled cable ..........   1
Footwear box ......   3
In the concrete fence ......   1
Log house -------   1
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
total ........   156


Osaka latitude 34 degree

same as Los Angeles and Carolina in USA and nearly Dallas

or as North Africa
.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 30, 2011, 03:13:07 am
Finski, if you read the post, you will see the second line from my post you quoted was not directed at you.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 03:25:15 am
.
How ordinary wasp survives in arctic regions

Wasp queen over winters as freezed. It may flye in cold rain like +4C, what I have seen its hunting.

In my country when day temp reaches +20C, a queen starts to make its paper nest.

It is a small paper covered ball. Larvae twist there and make their own heat.

I found that when I took a small wasp hive away. It was +5C outside and 10 larvae were warmer than my hand.

When wasps make a nest inside soil, they make there paper walls too to keep the hive temp optimal.


wasp "arctic sleeping bag"
(http://yle.fi/ecepic/archive/00326/ampiaispes__katon_r_326922b.jpg)


Hot climate wasp species nest, paper combs but no cover

(http://www.unisa.edu.au/barbarahardy/images/Bugs/Paper-wasp-nest.JPG)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on January 30, 2011, 03:33:31 am

Hay Finski

Just want to say "Thank You". I'M rather new to bee keeping [first year] and also keep bees in a cold climate. [Minnesota] Your posts have been helpfull to those of us in cold climates.

Keep sharing your knowledge

John
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on January 30, 2011, 08:44:53 am
I think it may be helpful if members actually "read the threads/posts" they are responding to.

I also think this one has gone on a bit long and is getting scattered some, but that's me :-D

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 30, 2011, 12:18:56 pm
Quote
Acebird, I am having trouble believing you are not familiar with the mechanics of Bee Winterizing.

I am familiar with some mechanics and trying to understand the logic where there are differences.

Quote
Now my original post (second in this thread) was that it was impractical for the bees to heat the inside cavity. You responded the assumption was not practical. I replied with an explanation of my original statement, and now I seem to be dragged into the middle of an argument about how best to keep bees from freezing.

You mean this one reply #79?

Quote
Acebird, the options are:
 Heating the entire cavity
 Heating the cluster
 Not heating anything
Quote
Relax! You don't need to carry a "Chip on your shoulder." We aren't saying your beekeeping wisdom is questionable.

CapnChkn, I am not dragging you into anything.  I take nobodies word for anything that is why all the questions.  To me “heating the cluster” by man is quite different than heating the box they live in.  My assumption is when someone starts a topic “beehive temp” they are speaking of the manmade box not just the cluster.  I can’t see how you can practically heat the cluster unless you provide a heat source that they can get to and then they congregate around it.  Won’t this result in killing the hive because the cluster will never move?

Finski, as CapnChkn posted you tend to fly off the handle if someone questions you.  Then you post a barrage of clippings with much good information but it is hard to see the relevancy of your ranting.  If you can’t keep straight who is posting what it is hard to take you serious.  It is no doubt that you have a ton of knowledge about bees to offer us but what you are delivering is hard to decipher.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 01:35:24 pm

Finski, as CapnChkn posted you tend to fly off the handle if someone questions you.  

I have tried to avoid to say that questions are out of mind. One fool may ask more than 10 wise can answer.

 
Quote
It is no doubt that you have a ton of knowledge about bees to offer us but what you are delivering is hard to decipher.



Like you, you have used all your energy to try piss on me. You are not interested how things really are.  You will never succeed.

If you have lack of basic knowledge or you have your own fixed ideas, it is impossible to tell how things are.

I have just  believed that you have just teased me with your stupid claims. British guys like to play that game. They even play their stupid games with diseases and after that discussion is mere mesh.

As I have said many times, all my knowledge is written in American universities with your mother lanquage. Don't care about my accent.  Problem is that you invent yout own statement and do not bother to read the information.

Read and understand is different questions. You may read it in 10 minutes but it takes year or more to undertand the idea in practical level.

Then some one say that "cold does not kill but moisture kills". It is same as "horse does not kill but cars kill".  Of cousre cold kills, but not perhaps in Texas.

The British beekeeprs are same. They do not understand the insutlation and they invent all kind of expalantions which are not from this world. It is what I say to them.

Like that "first years insulator" said: insulation adds moisture. - It is just controwise.

Guyes, back to school  and make your home works.
Internet has 95% wrong information about bees. Mostly is it mere social mouth grinding.

*****

I must say that insulation and heat issues are difficult issues in adulta level.
When the first energy crissi was 1975, we started to insulate our houses, stop ventilation, save energy and what ever.

....And what happened:

*  people become seriously sick
* houses and workplaces got mould and part of people got huge allergy.
* many buildings  were closed and living and working was forbidden
* roof and walls let rain water come into the house

* condensation water ruined many parts in houses

House wall structure

- outer board cover against water
- ventilating air gap (insulation and water cover do not touch each other)
- wind protection layer
- insulation (soft, much air)
- moisture barrier (inside moisture does not go inside the wall.
- inner surface cover ( nice to look, paint and what ever)

- wooden skeleton to fix layers

http://www.finnfoam.fi/index.php?action-article-getImage&article-imageId=2514 (http://www.finnfoam.fi/index.php?action-article-getImage&article-imageId=2514)

Simple, but development has taken 30 years...and some never learn in their DIY


.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 30, 2011, 02:05:09 pm
Quote
Like you, you have used all your energy to try piss on me.


So sorry you feel that way. :(

Quote
You are not interested how things really are.  You will never succeed.

At what?  I am not sure you know what my goals are.  I think I will succeed.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 30, 2011, 02:48:00 pm
Alrighty!  I understood that question!  I think the problem we're having is in the perspective.  The original post talked about the temperatures in the hive, not artificial heating.  Also, the term bee "Keeper" is related to "Gamekeeper."  There are no "Beeherds."

Because this isn't developing a domestic animal with predictable behavior, it's essential to get into the head of the bee.  The hive is not a convenience for the bee, but for the keeper.  When I say, "heat the cluster," I am looking at this from the perspective of the insect, not the mammal trying to get 'r done.

If I were to try to keep the bees through the winter using artificial means, it would be better to create an environment inside the hive that would take less effort to get through the hardest of times.  If you have several hives, setting them one next to another would give insulation on the touching walls.  A climate close to what would be common around 35 to 38 degrees latitude would be best, because the bees would become too active at higher temperatures before the flows started.

If left to themselves, selection would simply favor the bees that built larger clusters, collected enough stores, and swarmed less.  AHB is an example of all the characteristics not desirable in northern races, but works pretty well for tropical climes.  I don't need to heat my bees, they do just fine by themselves, but if I were, I fantasize about building a greenhouse with temperature controlled vents.  All entrances would lead outside, and the sides could be opened in warm weather.

I'm pretty sure Finski is hindered by his ability to communicate in English and is trying to get his message through, I'm not mad at him or you, I'm used to netiquette.  He's talking about his experience with heating hives in cold that is torturous to critters half an inch long, and is saying pretty much what I am in this post.  The fact he keeps "trash talking" tells me he's more of a curmudgeon than trying to show the world how to "do it right."
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 03:01:18 pm
He's talking about his experience with heating hives in cold that is torturous to critters half an inch long, and is saying pretty much what I am in this post.  The fact he keeps "trash talking" tells me he's more of a curmudgeon than trying to show the world how to "do it right."

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT OVER WINTER MY BEES WITH ELECTRICT HEATING.
tHEY ARE JUST IN INSULATED BOXES AND EATE SUGAR AND MAKE THEIR OWN HEAT WHAT THEY NEED.



You have in Tennesee now +15C - +17 C day temp. It is not winter. Just cool summer weather to me.
3 days ago I had here -28C

We have here that temperature in the middle of May - I hope!

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on January 30, 2011, 03:23:18 pm
Finski, aren’t you glad you’re not trying to teach science over here in the USA! 

Don’t worry, most of us completely agree with everything you have said.  You are very wise, your distracters need to go back to school.  Can we send them to Finland to learn?

I second the motion by Thomas to put this thread out of it's misery......

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 03:43:59 pm


Finski, aren’t you glad you’re not trying to teach science over here in the USA!  



JEP! Big country, big tolerances

Free advice: lift brake bedal and turn steering wheel :)

Snowy Car Crashes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PApZm9-rwFc#)

Don't do like us

Rally crash compilation special snow rally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKeLrd4DL38#)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 30, 2011, 04:31:48 pm
I lived in Sweden for four years, and the Swedes taught me all about the other Scandinavians.  :-D  Here's what they taught me about Finland:

1. All Finns are drunk, all the time.

2. All Finnish women have tattoos.

3. All Finnish men carry knives.

When I was in grad school in Birmingham Alabama, we had a post-doc from Turku, Finland.  I was assigned to take his wife to the bank to help her open an account.  The teller was a southern black woman.  Both the woman from Finland and the Birmingham native spoke perfect English but they could not understand each other at all.  I had to translate from English to English.  Come to think of it, I didn't see a tattoo on this woman.  I guess it was covered up.  :-D
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 04:35:38 pm
.

That is all  true

One teacher from Finland was in USA, and she told that every shool boy had gun in every pocket at shool.



.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 30, 2011, 05:15:58 pm
Quote
DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT OVER WINTER MY BEES WITH ELECTRICT HEATING.

It fooled me at first.  It became apparent later on after much trash talking...

I have been watching the videos on the Bushymountain site lectured by Larry Connor.  Don't you know he puts up a photo of 5 frame nuc boxes (plastic) with a lower entrance hole on one end and a bigger screened vent hole on the other end towards the top.  That is most definitely cross ventilated.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: buzzbee on January 30, 2011, 05:31:20 pm
Quote
DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT OVER WINTER MY BEES WITH ELECTRICT HEATING.

It fooled me at first.  It became apparent later on after much trash talking...

I have been watching the videos on the Bushymountain site lectured by Larry Connor.  Don't you know he puts up a photo of 5 frame nuc boxes (plastic) with a lower entrance hole on one end and a bigger screened vent hole on the other end towards the top.  That is most definitely cross ventilated.

Don't forget Brushy Mountain is in the Carolinas.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 05:50:48 pm

It fooled me at first.  

Wellcome onto the earth!

worst aircraft landing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwUIOpOuBuk#)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on January 30, 2011, 07:46:37 pm
Finski, this is an example of what Americans call "Trash Talking."

Quote
Like you, you have used all your energy to try piss on me. You are not interested how things really are.  You will never succeed.

Now I know you Di'int!  I never said a single thing about what you've posted concerning bees and winter.  In fact I haven't said anything about anything you've posted, except for some reason you keep giving me the weather report for my area.  If you're going to get mad, you should look up the word Curmudgeon.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 30, 2011, 10:30:18 pm
 If you're going to get mad, you should look up the word Curmudgeon.

Not my style

(http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/curmudgeon.jpg)



We have our own Trash Talking Curmudgeon style here.


Pulttibois nunnukamiehet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWmC39tREEo#)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on January 31, 2011, 12:47:20 am
.That is all  true
One teacher from Finland was in USA, and she told that every shool boy had gun in every pocket at shool.

Oh, I forgot one more thing the Swedes taught me:

4.  When the Russians invade, the Finns fight like hell. 
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 31, 2011, 03:19:04 am
.
Yes we fought into the Hell. We were under Swedish covernement during The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648). Sweden put the Finnish fight in front of troops and only 10% come back from the war.

It is said that what we von we imported potato from the war but I think that it was not true. Its cultivation rised 200 years later when covernement did not allowed burn forests for food cultivation.
Potato cultivation was teached by "The Economic Society".
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: bee-nuts on January 31, 2011, 03:40:10 am
WOW!

Bees generate heat.  If you insulate the hive you will retain some of that heat.  What is so hare to understand about this.  If you have 10-15000 bees in a ball keeping the center core 70 to 95 degrees at all times you dont think that give off any heat?  Why would poly hived colonies consume half the stores if it did not retain heat?  Bees do heat the hive, that is plain common sense.

How many of you have been in a barn of mild cows in the middle of winter?  It can be twenty below zero outside and fourty degrees inside.  Why, because the cows kept the barn warm.  Have you ever been in a room packed with people?  It gets hot because the people heat the place.

Im sorry folks but Finski knows what he is talking about.  Most of what he says makes perfect sense to me.  If honeybees dont warm the hive at all its cause they are dead.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 31, 2011, 04:25:56 am
.
In Finland we are planning now "low energy houses". Modern house use so much electrict in many way that that the waste heat from that is enough to keep the house warm.  You need not to consume extra  energy for heating.

That need a good insulation.
Then it needs to take energy back from ventilated air.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on January 31, 2011, 09:44:26 am
Quote
Don't forget Brushy Mountain is in the Carolinas.
I believe Larry connor is from Mass and the photo was from some place in Ohio with snow on the ground.  He mentioned it would not be so good for extreme norther climates or high wind areas.  I just find it amazing that even the commercial equipment that is produced on a large scale is based on conflicting concepts.  So how can someone from the extreme part of the globe dictate to everyone else across the globe how to winter bees?  Then call someone from any other part of the globe stupid if they don't agree.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 31, 2011, 11:07:08 am
Quote
Don't forget Brushy Mountain is in the Carolinas.
So how can someone from the extreme part of the globe dictate to everyone else across the globe how to winter bees?  .

It just happens. The reason is World Wide Internet.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on January 31, 2011, 03:22:12 pm
.
Tennessee  has now +15C day temp. Central Canada seems to be cold place now.

Winnipeg has even -28C

http://www.findlocalweather.com/forecast/winnipeg_mb_ca.html (http://www.findlocalweather.com/forecast/winnipeg_mb_ca.html)

Average Weather in Edmonton for February
 
  Coldest daily temperature -17   Celsius 
  Warmest daily temperature -6    Celsius 
  Coldest February temperature -50    Celsius 
  Warmest February temperature 18    Celsius 
 


Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on February 01, 2011, 12:09:06 am
Ok, Bee-nuts, If you read my posts, you will see I never said a word about what Finski is complaining about.  I mentioned in 2 different threads that Bees don't heat the inside of the cavity, and he has been grousing on and on about what the weather is here.  I never said anything about what he has written in any case except, EXCEPT, the fact he has posted continuously about the weather where I am located.

I submit, bees do not intentionally heat the inside of the cavity where they live, and any heating there is actually incidental.  It does give them an edge, but the temperature outside the cluster core and inside the hive can vary as much as 100° F (56° C).  As Finski has written in one of his posts about something I wrote months ago:

Quote
last winter I had a small 3-frame nuc in firewood shelter. Temp was outside -20C  - -30C. When I looked into the nuc. The cluster occupied the half of the space and the rest of space was full of snow which had born from respiration.
Which is located here:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,30594.msg244824.html#msg244824 (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,30594.msg244824.html#msg244824)

See?  If what Finski is saying is that the bees Heat the inside of the hive body, then where did the snow come from and why was all this snow there?

On page 5 of this thread, he has also SHOUTED (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31230.msg253963.html#msg253963) that he doesn't use artificial heat, and in that same post he made the above statement from, he also wrote this to me:

Quote
Many say that cold does not kill bee but  But when I heat the hive with 3W terratium heater
it keeps small colinies alive which otherwice will die.
I am not listening to this dude anymore, I don't need the abuse.  He started this argument without provocation, and continues to target me for no reason.  I stated what the scientists have said.  My father was a Geologist, my brother has a masters in organic chemistry, and my Sister has some degree with a long name concerning biological something I can't remember.  He's not using scientific method, he's using chop logic (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/philosophy/2458817-logic_chopping.html#5494502), and shouting "I'm right, you're wrong and you had better listen to me!"

Mythologically, Trolls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll) are Scandinavian in origin.  It's already been posted this thread is getting long and the battle between "Flat Earth," and "Round Earth" is moot to the bees.  I post this at peril of feeding the troll, and third the motion this thread be closed.

Here is one good read on the Winter cluster:
http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html (http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: bee-nuts on February 01, 2011, 12:51:50 am
CapnChkn

We all come from different parts of the states with different weather and therefore we all have different experiences with our colonies and likely different opinions on what one thing is or is not.  I also sometimes think people can be very ignorant when it comes to language barriers.  Finski obviously does not write English fluently and therefore when reading his post one has to interpret what his meaning is or what his understanding was when he comments.  Maybe he has singled you out.  I dont know.  What bothers me is the name calling, and the raciest comments that have flared up from an argument so stupid its childish no matter who started it.  I have Finish ancestry.  I was baby sat by my great grand mother and great, great Uncle who were both pure fin.  So I am a bit offended by the comments made of all fins being drunks and what not.  I have not been to Finland but my brother was and went out drinking with my cousin Peter who I meet here when he came to visit.  My brother said they dont drink and drive like we do but go to the local police station and wait till they are well enough to drive.  He also said they build things to last a life time unlike how we built everything thinking of today and not tomorrow.  They live on much more modest incomes.  I have respect for culture.  I have respect for opinion.  I have no respect for bigotry, racist comments, and ignorance.  I mean no personal offense to you or anyone here, I just wish everyone could have a little more respect for other people when their tempers flare.

I know I should have just stayed out of this whole argument but my foot was already in the door.  I have to say Im surprised this thread has been allowed to go on as long as it has.  I think with respect to everyone it should be wiped off the forum.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: FRAMEshift on February 01, 2011, 01:25:55 am
You know, I was making fun of stereotypes.  You may not understand that but Finski does.   Scandinavians joke with each other that way all the time. It's not racism because they don't hate each other.  They are cultural brothers.   I would say Finski expresses himself better than many native speakers because he actually has something to say. 

You are right, bees are different in different climates.  I enjoy hearing about the range of behaviors and adaptability of my favorite little bugs.  :-D
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: rdy-b on February 01, 2011, 02:50:59 am
> What surprises me though is that the relative humidity shoots up to above 90% at night but drops to 70% during the day. The beehive has some ventilation. Two questions:  1) what is with the humidity? and 2) any references to beehive temperature data?< ITS colder at night so the bees have to generate more heat it is the heat from the cluster that is fluxing the humidity-
If there wasn't substantial heat produced then the humidity wouldn't be
great enough and the dew point wouldn't be reached with condensation
fromation,
 ;)  :) RDY-B
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 01, 2011, 03:14:14 am

Here is one good read on the Winter cluster:
http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html (http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html)

He writes "During the winter, only the cluster is kept warm. The rest of the inside of the hive is the same temperature as the outside air.  " = NONSENCE, that insulation means nothing. Guy is living under palmtree. That is the biggest mistake in  American beekeeping.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: rdy-b on February 01, 2011, 03:24:20 am
theres a link to Inferred Image in that article-one look at the image and you can clearly see the warmth extending past the cluster-RDY-B

(http://www.beebehavior.com/beeimages/hives/woodhives/infrared_hives.jpg)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 01, 2011, 03:35:29 am
.
Dickallen is a member of this forum too. He wrote to finnish forum this:
http://bee.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=english (http://bee.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=english)

"Varroa comes here in bee packages. Most people who have bees in Alaska do not keep bees through the winter. Instead, they buy packages that are sent from California and other states each spring. At the end of summer, all honey is taken and the bees are killed. Not everyone kills their bees, but that is the usual way it is done here. It is getting more expensive to do it that way. Last year a 4 pound (1.5 kg.) package with queen cost $80 U.S. including shipping cost. If the cost keeps increasing, maybe more people will try to keep their bees all year.

Some of us do try to keep our bees through the winter. "

Dickallen is a helicopted pilot and I believe that he has all nuts and bolts in right place in his head.


Jep. I live just at same altitude like Anchorage and no one kill bees here in autumn.

There are many beekeepers on Polar Circle are here.

/Anchorage_Helsinki.jpg[/img]
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 01, 2011, 03:54:00 am
theres a link to Inferred Image in that article-one look at the image and you can clearly see the warmth extending past the cluster-RDY-B


A cluster, human or what ever looses energy all the time. Insulation and outer temp, wind and ventilation commands how fast heat escapes.


Respiration is one point in the cluster. Cluster needs oxycen - carbon diokside ventilation and heat escapes this way too. It does like respiration heat via human lungs.



Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 01, 2011, 03:58:22 am
.
(http://media.photobucket.com/image/canada%20polar%20circle/amcmendes/arcticCircleMap.gif)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on February 01, 2011, 10:28:23 am
 
Quote
I think with respect to everyone it should be wiped off the forum.

I disagree.  Censorship will kill a public forum.  Hopefully learning will occur because of what has happened.  Language barriers cause misunderstandings not personal attacks.  All that means is it takes more effort and longer to make the message clear.

Quote
theres a link to Inferred Image in that article-one look at the image and you can clearly see the warmth extending past the cluster

Rdy-b, you have to be careful when interpreting IR pics.  They are like x-rays.  You are looking through the box.  Just for instance, if you look at the handles you will see that they appear to be hot.  They are not any hotter then the rest of the box around the handles it is just that the material is thinner and lets more radiation pass through it so it looks hotter.  I have worked with all kinds of vision applications and you really need a lot of background to be able to interpret the results.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: rdy-b on February 01, 2011, 08:45:56 pm
finski-are you JIIHOO-RDY-B
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 02, 2011, 01:32:00 am
finski-are you JIIHOO-RDY-B

yes i am
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on February 02, 2011, 09:31:49 am
My own opinion is that the topic of this thread will remain irrelevant as long as some continue to compare humans with honeybees as part of the argument or conversation.  Hence "my" personal desire to see it over, which has nothing to do with censorship.  

Acebird is correct, the x-rays (Infrared, as corrected below by Finski) pictured above mean little since they show differences in "fractions" of temp, not quite as dramatic as the picture implies.  Now there's a viable subject for debate ;)

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 02, 2011, 10:29:02 am
My own opinion is that the topic of this thread will remain irrelevant as long as some continue to compare humans with honeybees as part of the argument or conversation.  Hence "my" personal desire to see it over, which has nothing to do with censorship.  

Acebird is correct, the x-rays pictured mean little since they show differences in "fractions" of temp, not quite as dramatic as pic implies.

thomas

In the picture color is a  heat waves not x-rays. Heat waves are called infra rays because the wave lenght is under human ability to see.

Some one compare beehive to human house  ----I cannot accept that some one discuss with bees all day along. I have here a link. Look at that sometimes

http://www.missuniverse2010.net/2010/07/ena-sandra-causevic-miss-denmark-2010/ (http://www.missuniverse2010.net/2010/07/ena-sandra-causevic-miss-denmark-2010/)

Perhaps they have used a little bit photoshop but result is good.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on February 02, 2011, 10:38:03 am
I stand corrected, I must have mispoken, thanks for pointing that out Finski :)  However, I won't take back anything else said ;).  Thanks for the interesting link.

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 02, 2011, 10:43:24 am
However, I won't take back anything else said ;).  
thomas

Never mind. I did not understand you at all. At least I have lost hope for better life when retired:)

Change your avatar. It is stupid. To be like this  http://fotoblog.refocus.de/images/20080526001701_lion_800.jpg (http://fotoblog.refocus.de/images/20080526001701_lion_800.jpg)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on February 02, 2011, 01:13:48 pm
Back at you, brother.  Not "my" problem.

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Countryboy on February 02, 2011, 11:55:00 pm
I have opened hives to peek inside when there was snow on the ground. I have styrofoam lids or a sheet of styrofoam under a regular lid.  It's not uncommon to remove styrofoam and feel heat come from the inside of the hive.  The bees are still in a cluster.  The heat that I feel was heat from the cluster, but in an insulated hive the heat lost from the cluster warms the inside of the hive.

People need only to open an insulated hive in cold weather to feel the heat with their hands.

Has no one ever gotten into a brood nest on a cool spring day, when you can feel the heat coming out of the broodnest?  Bees produce heat, and that heat has to go somewhere.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on February 03, 2011, 12:47:53 am
rdy-b
your suggestion
'ITS colder at night so the bees have to generate more heat it is the heat from the cluster that is fluxing the humidity-'

I agree, at night when the outside temp decreases , the temp within the beehive increases, this can only happen if the metabolism of the bees increases, perhaps in response the decrease in the outside temp. one of the byproducts of the consumption of honey is water vapor, hence the increase in %humidity in conjunction with the increase in temp; I think?

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 12:52:33 am
Bees produce heat, and that heat has to go somewhere.

Heat acts like heat at your home. If you cut the heat  from your home, you have quite soon cold.
If you keep the door open when snow is in the ground, you are soon shivering.

What is so difficult to undertand the meaning "wind shelter" "heated home" and "too hot at home".

These were the fist issue what my mom teached me when I was a schild: "Close the door, it is byed heat".
"who last comes he closes the door"
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: stonecroppefarm on February 03, 2011, 12:59:23 am

He writes "During the winter, only the cluster is kept warm. The rest of the inside of the hive is the same temperature as the outside air.  " = NONSENCE, that insulation means nothing. Guy is living under palmtree. That is the biggest mistake in  American beekeeping.

Finski,  before I insulated the hive, I placed the temp sensor in the hive on the bottom board. the temp there was the same as the temp outside the hive. when I added the shim on top and insulated the hive, I placed the sensor in the shim at the top of the hive. the temp there is always in the 40s F regardless of the temp outside the hive which at times is 5deg to 10deg F.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on February 03, 2011, 01:00:14 am
Ron, your bees might be the most talked about set of bees on beemaster!

Finski, your mother was a WISE woman!

Yes CountryBoy, it does boggle the mind that the effect of insulation isn’t common sense to everybody.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 03, 2011, 01:20:14 am

Finski, your mother was a WISE woman!

Yes CountryBoy, it does boggle the mind that the effect of insulation isn’t common sense to everybody.


Jep. My mother use to put woolen planket over apples and she said that the wool produce heat so apples will not freeze. But Life teaches gradually.

It was a year ago when one beekeepers insist that the polystyrene produces heat. "Put your hand on it. You feel how it heats the hand".


Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Countryboy on February 05, 2011, 12:19:51 am
These were the fist issue what my mom teached me when I was a schild: "Close the door, it is byed heat".
"who last comes he closes the door"


I was raised in an underground home with a woodburning stove until we got free gas heat after they drilled an oil and gas well on the farm.  We opened the door if it got too hot.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 05, 2011, 01:49:10 am

I was raised in an underground home with a woodburning stove until we got free gas heat after they drilled an oil and gas well on the farm.  We opened the door if it got too hot.

Hmmm, that explains why many Americans are not able to protect their hives from cold....

If I live over gasfield I would surely move from underground and move to south to palm hut.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on February 05, 2011, 06:38:11 am
Countryboy, I never said the inside of the hive didn't get warmer because of the bees.  I said the bees didn't heat the inside of the hive.  Finski said I said that.  Finski heats his hives anyway.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 05, 2011, 06:52:58 am
Countryboy, I never said the inside of the hive didn't get warmer because of the bees.  I said the bees didn't heat the inside of the hive.  Finski said I said that.  Finski heats his hives anyway.

Cap boy, you are just wrong. I have kept 48 years bees in harsh environment and you have nothing to teach me.

I do not  heat my hives  anyway. We have here 4 000 other beekeepers and they have no more problems to over winter bees than usual.

Murfreesboro is not a place wher you learn to over winter hives. You have there summer weathes all year around.


http://www.wunderground.com/US/TN/Murfreesboro.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/TN/Murfreesboro.html)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 05, 2011, 07:28:33 am
.
I have 30 hives,  and just now 5 smallest hives has a heater.

The lowest temp of this winter on my hive yard has been -30C / -22F

Here you may follow my weather. Station is 10 miles from my hives.

http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/Kouvola?parameter=4&map=weathernow&station=2830 (http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/Kouvola?parameter=4&map=weathernow&station=2830)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Countryboy on February 06, 2011, 12:55:01 am
Hmmm, that explains why many Americans are not able to protect their hives from cold....

Not many Americans live in underground homes.  Many do not understand what it is like to have a home that stays about 55 degrees if you do not heat it because of the insulation properties of earth.

Most Americans think the way to heat a home is by adjusting a thermostat control on the wall. 

The royalties from the gas and oil for the landowner was not enough to move to tropical weather.  The big benefit of having the well was having free natural gas for heating and cooking.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on February 06, 2011, 03:05:06 pm
Having built and lived in a cordwood home with 27 inch walls for the past 29 years I can relate to living underground.  It was a choice I also considered at the time, but getting the equipment in would have cost as much as the house.

Finski:  I suspect your take on what American Beeks are capable of is a bit skewed, as I know many who keep bees quite well (as well as you) in northern climes as harsh as yours (I don't beleive you know as many American beeks as your pre-conceived notions proclaim).  

Not all Beeks spend their time on bee forums you know :roll: (I'm assuming that's where your viewpoint comes from).

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on February 06, 2011, 04:04:28 pm
Not all Beeks spend their time of bee forums you know :roll: (I'm assuming that's where your viewpoint comes from).

thomas

Really! WHY? 

In Finland we have 4200 registered beekeepers and only under 1% visit on forum during one week. 

I think that you have more Beekeepers Associations than we have beekeepers.

.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 09, 2011, 12:33:45 am
Not all Beeks spend their time of bee forums you know :roll: (I'm assuming that's where your viewpoint comes from).

thomas

Really! WHY? 

In Finland we have 4200 registered beekeepers and only under 1% visit on forum during one week. 

I think that you have more Beekeepers Associations than we have beekeepers.


You're probably right about that Finski.  But I do know one thing, that is that the beekeepers who haunt this forum are inqisitive and admit they don't know it all, but are willing to learn by exchanging ideas irregardless of how stupid they may sound.  After all, the only real stupid 2question is the one that never gets asked..  The know it all beekepers dont visit, or at least don't post, on the forum because they are afraid to show their ignorance.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on August 15, 2011, 09:15:13 am
Two temperature probes one at bottom of the brood box one at the top on British national standard wooden hive, with 2 supers no insulation last night and this morning

5pm: out side temp 20C  bottom temp 30C top temp 34C
10pm: bottom temp 30C top temp 40c
7am bottomtemp 30c top temp 44C out side temp 10c.

it seems they really stoke the fires overnight on cool summer nights  to keep the brood warm- this could be as high as 75 to 100W. I was worried about winter honey consumption, this is much bigger  6 month of average 10c at night  at this power is 50Kg of honey.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on August 15, 2011, 02:39:47 pm
Oh no, not this dreaded thread again…

Derekm, I thought you were using foam insulated hives?  In the summer your bee population is a lot higher than in the winter so that may account for some of the extra wattage.  

Interesting data.  I don’t know your UK weather, is there a chance the mass of the hive and the sun load could be resulting in a long thermal time constant and pushing the peaks temps into the night as well?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on August 15, 2011, 02:55:58 pm
I'm Converting to PU this is my control hive at the mom ent. We have coolish summers 30c is a heatwave. A week below 0c in winter is remarked on. Annual rainfall is around 1m, with a wide toplogical variation. Surprisingly small variation from shetland to the channel islands considering its from 50N to 60N
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on August 15, 2011, 05:04:44 pm
5pm: out side temp 20C  bottom temp 30C top temp 34C
10pm: bottom temp 30C top temp 40c
7am bottomtemp 30c top temp 44C out side temp 10c.

it seems they really stoke the fires overnight on cool summer nights  to keep the brood warm-

I am not sure how you are doing you calculations but the bottom temp is pretty consistant at 30 C.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: CapnChkn on August 16, 2011, 02:55:54 pm
Ah HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

It's the thread that wouldn't die!  BEES HEAT THE CLUSTER NOT THE HIVE!

Commence Fighting!
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on September 03, 2011, 08:08:50 pm
read

 Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118
 WINTER-HARDINESS OF BUCKFAST BEES UNDER SPECIFIC WEATHER CONDITIONS OF AREAS WITH ALTERNATING INFLUENCES OF MARITIME AND CONTINENTAL CLIMATE
Olszewski Journal of Apicultural Science

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Michael Bush on September 03, 2011, 10:14:09 pm
Insulation still changes the heat loss of the cluster, whether they are intentionally heating the hive or not.  Anyone who has stayed in a large unheated tent or a small unheated tent in the winter can tell the difference.  A double walled ten is warmer than a single wall.  A white one is warmer than a dark one.  All these things play into how warm you are.  It's a gross oversimplification to say that the bees don't heat the hive so nothing else matters.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering)

I am not attempting here to explain the answer to all the thermodynamics of a hive, but merely to try to outline the question and show that the metrics are more complicated than they first appear. Let's see how many significant aspects of the thermodynamics of a wintering hive we can list:

o Temperature. This is the simple one. It's easy to measure temperature by putting a thermometer where you want to measure it. Measure the temperature of the distant points in the hive and in the cluster and on the edge of the cluster and outside the hive. These are the "facts" usually used to try to explain the thermodynamics of a winter hive. These facts are one very small piece of the whole picture.

o Heat production. The cluster is producing heat. You can argue all day that they don't heat the hive, and obviously that is not their intent, but they do produce heat in the hive and that heat dissipates into the hive and, depending on other factors, into the outside, at some rate. This is a "thermostatically" controlled source of heat in that the bees will produce more heat as the temperatures decline to make up for heat loss, or less as it warms up. The temperature in your house is the same with the back door open or closed, but that doesn't mean that leaving it open doesn't matter. A thermostatically controlled environment can be misleading when we try to measure it in temperature and don't take into account heat loss.

o Respiration. There is a change in humidity in the hive caused by the metabolic processes of the bees. This water is put into the air by respiration. It is warm and moist air. This changes the humidity and the humidity changes other aspects.

o Humidity. The moisture in the air changes many other aspects of the thermodynamics as it causes more heat transfer by convection, more heat that is stored by the air, more condensation and less evaporation. We express this difference when referring to the weather in things like "it was hot but it was a dry heat" or "it wasn't the cold, it was the dampness".

o Condensation. Condensation of water gives off heat. There is water condensing on the cold sides and lid of the hive all through the winter and this affects the temperature. Condensation is caused by a temperature difference between a surface and the air contacting that surface. It occurs when the humidity of the air is high enough that when the air is cooled on the surface, the air (now cooler) can no longer hold that amount of humidity.

o Evaporation. Water that has condensed and run down the sides to the bottom or dripped on the bees, evaporates. This absorbs heat as it evaporates. Wet bees have to burn up a huge amount of energy to evaporate water that has dripped on them. Puddles of water on the bottom continue to absorb heat until they evaporate.

o Thermal Mass. The mass of all of the honey in the hive holds heat and dissipates heat over time. It changes the time period over which changes in temperatures occur. It holds a lot of the heat that is in the hive. A lot of cold honey can keep a hive cold even when it's warm out. A lot of warm honey can keep a hive warmer even when it's cold out. It moderates the effects of temperature changes and it holds and gives off heat. This is more related to the amount of heat in the system than the temperature. A large mass of moderate temperature may actually hold more heat than a small mass of higher temperature.

o Air Exchange. I am splitting this out from convection, although convection is involved, because I am differentiating an exchange of air with the outside as opposed to convection taking place within the hive. Outside air coming into the hive is essential to the bees having enough oxygen for aerobic metabolism , but the more of it there is the more it affects the temperatures in the hive. If this is minimized during winter, the temperature in the hive will exceed the temperature outside the hive. If it is too minimized the bees will suffocate. If it is too maximized the bees will have to work much harder to maintain the heat of the cluster. Even if you were to increase this gradually to the point of the inside and outside temperatures being indistinguishable, more air exchange from that point would not change the temperatures, inside, outside or of the cluster but WILL cause more heat loss to the cluster thereby causing them to make more heat to compensate. If you rely only on measuring temperature you will not see this difference.

o Convection within the hive. Convection is how an object with some thermal mass and therefore some kinetic heat, loses its heat to the air. The air on the surface either picks up or gives off heat (depending on the direction of the heat difference) and if the air heats up it rises bringing more cool air into its place. If it cools it sinks bringing more warm air into its place. Things that block air or divide it into layers will add to warmth. That's how things like blankets and quilts work. They create dead space where the air can't move so easily. A vacuum thermos works on the principle that if there is no air, it can't carry away the heat by convection. The more open space there is in the hive, the more convection can take place. The more you limit things to layers the less convection takes place. We sometimes refer to an excess of convection in our houses as "it was 70 degrees in the house but it was drafty".

o Conduction. Conduction is how the heat moves through an object. Take the outside wall of a hive. At night if it's colder outside, it absorbs heat from the inside that comes from convection (warmer air against its surface) and heat from radiation (heat radiating from the cluster) and that heat warms the wood. The rate at which that heat moves through the wood to the outside is its conductivity. The heat is conducted to the outside where convection carries off the heat from the surface. On a sunny day on the South side, the sun will heat the wall, the heat will move by conduction through the wall to the inside where convection will transfer the heat to the air. Insulation or Styrofoam hives will slow down conduction.

o Radiation. Radiation is the process in which energy is emitted by one body, transmitted through an intervening medium or space without significantly affecting the temperature of the medium, and absorbed by another body. A heat lamp or heat from a fire are tangible examples of this. In the case of a wintering hive the two main sources of radiant heat are the cluster and the sun. During a sunny day the radiant heat of the sun hits the side of the hive and turns into kinetic heat and is transferred by conduction to the inside of the hive. The radiant heat from the cluster hits the surrounding combs of honey and walls, cover and bottom. Some is absorbed by the honey and walls, and some is reflected back. The amount is dependent on how close the cluster is and how reflective the surface is. Real life experience of radiant heat would be being in the sun on an otherwise cool day or putting a thermometer in the sun and getting a dramatically different reading than one in the shade.

o Temperature differences. The amount of the difference in temperatures between the cluster and the outside is a significant factor. If your outside temperatures in winter average say 32 F and your lows are rarely 0 F the significance of some of these things may be minimal. On the other hand if your winters often have subzero temperatures of -20 to -40 F for long periods then these issues are much more significant.

The real question is, "How do all of these interact in a wintering hive?"

One clue to understand some of it is by watching the bees. They adjust based on what they are experiencing as far as heat loss, rather than what it says on the thermometer. The cluster is drawn to the place where they lose less heat. This should be a clue to us on where and how they are losing heat.

My point is, if you look at most things they are much more complicated than a simple measurement and yet we have a tendency to try to reduce them to that.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Sundog on September 03, 2011, 11:12:36 pm
Makes me shiver just thinking about it.  But I don't know why!

Having fun!
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on September 04, 2011, 12:57:47 am
Ah HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

It's the thread that wouldn't die!  BEES HEAT THE CLUSTER NOT THE HIVE!

Commence Fighting!


HAhAhA  AND HAH!

Bees heat the hive too because heat escapes from the cluster.

A human doest not heat the world  but himself. However human keeps clothes on to hinder heat leaking from the body. The hive is like clothes to human.

The heat inside the hive keeps relative moisture  lower than outside. That is why hives a resticted to small for wintering. Extra space off.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on September 04, 2011, 02:33:08 pm
I' m confused by U.S. Bee keeping... it takes 100lbs to 140lbs of honey to get colony through a winter with 50 to 60% failure yet in Europe
In cold and  wet climates (norway poland)  European scientific research has measured that Bees need only 8 to 12kg thats 20lbs to 30lbs, with lower failure rates...

The U.S. fashion is top entrance and top vents being open in winter? In heated structure thats the best way to get heat loss and rapid chilling of whatevers is inside due to the high convection airflow according to my degrees in physics and experience in the air handling industry.
(a bee hive is a heated structure) why do this  unless the intention is to stress the bees ?

In Europe highly insulated hives are the norm following the research done in the late fifities to early seventies, but  in the u.s. it wood with optional tar paper, why?

The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335)which goes againsts the  scientific european research findings.

  I am  thinking Honey and bees must be so cheap in the U.S.,  that they can be thrown away each year.  

That difference of 70lbs of honey is worth £300 or $450 per hive here. A new buckfast queen  costs $45
 A  nucleus" package" of 5 frames of brood in all stages and a mated queen is £150 that $210.



Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: BlueBee on September 04, 2011, 02:54:01 pm
This is America; a lot of things we do over here don’t make logical sense!

I suspect many northern bee keepers do insulate their hives to some degree in the winter, but clearly there is confusion how to do it effectively.  We are certainly not as refined as the European’s in this area.

Michael Bush, I liked your summary of the variables involved.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on September 04, 2011, 03:03:02 pm
For me and mine I try to have my 'hives' weighing at least 100lbs (that's honey 'and' bees) by end of September.  More would be great, our winters are six months 'plus' long.  

My vent/feed boxes, which are placed above a notched inner cover (top entrance) is ideally on top of 4 full medium supers, but I've overwintered bees in as few as two.  

With the addition of 2" rigid insulation (now blocking vent holes in vent box) inside and over dry sugar my hives are ready for winter wrapping w/ tar paper which serves as an insulating envelope and allows heat to obsorb on sunny days.  I've kept bees wrapped and unwrapped successfully, I like to do what I can and wrapping is an easy thing.

Rather than heat loss, I'm much more concerned w/ excessive moisture and bee gas during extreme winters, and I believe top entrances assist w/ the elimination of these issues.

(not all US beekeepers have the losses quoted) (the prices for UK bees quoted are comparable to US)
(assumptions are for :roll:)

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on September 04, 2011, 03:14:48 pm
Quote
The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335)which goes againsts the  scientific european research findings.


It is hard to make money if you are not selling a lot of equipment and bees.  We have a large country with drastic differences in climate.  Bee practices are not all the same unless you only look at small areas that have developed a method that works.  The tar paper is a method of breaking the wind and absorbing the radiant heat from the sun that Michael spoke about.  If your hive is greatly insulated tar paper will not work.  If your hive is made of a high R value insulation material what do you do in the summer when the bees don't need the heat?  Are you giving them a different hive or letting them deal with the heat?

I am asking, I don't know.  Which method produces the honey at the lowest cost, European, or American?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: boca on September 04, 2011, 03:43:26 pm
The U.S. fashion is top entrance and top vents being open in winter? In heated structure thats the best way to get heat loss and rapid chilling of whatevers is inside due to the high convection airflow according to my degrees in physics and experience in the air handling industry.
(a bee hive is a heated structure) why do this  unless the intention is to stress the bees ?

Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html)
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: boca on September 04, 2011, 03:52:56 pm
I don't heat my house. I heat the stove only!
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Acebird on September 04, 2011, 05:10:50 pm
Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html)

I don't think that Dave realizes that in very cold climates the moisture in a live tree freezes and splits the wood.  You can't see it because it is hidden by the bark but you can definitely hear it when it pops.  You can easily test the ventilation aspects of a feral colony by using a "leak test machine".  I suspect there is more ventilation in a tree hive then he thinks.
A managed hive, most likely will not have these splits in the wood unless it is a very old hive.  And even then bees survive just fine.  So the real question is which method produces more honey at a lower cost, sealed up plastic or top entrance hive?
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on September 04, 2011, 05:30:44 pm
Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html)

...  So the real question is which method produces more honey at a lower cost, sealed up plastic or top entrance hive?
no its open at the bottom, thats the point ...
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on September 04, 2011, 06:00:09 pm
Dave Cushman has the same opinion.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html (http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/ventilation.html)

I don't think that Dave realizes that in very cold climates the moisture in a live tree freezes and splits the wood.  You can't see it because it is hidden by the bark but you can definitely hear it when it pops.  You can easily test the ventilation aspects of a feral colony by using a "leak test machine".  I suspect there is more ventilation in a tree hive then he thinks.
A managed hive, most likely will not have these splits in the wood unless it is a very old hive.  And even then bees survive just fine.  So the real question is which method produces more honey at a lower cost, sealed up plastic or top entrance hive?
you dont need a cold climate for trees with splits... vis Salix fragilis is a common tree in the UK.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on September 04, 2011, 06:58:51 pm
I don't heat my house. I heat the stove only!

 :lau:Now that's funny.  Is your stove outside?  Sorry, couldn't resist.  I feed my stove wood and it heats my house. 

How do you heat your stove (I'm thinking of something very funny, at least to me, but my girl think my sense of humor is warped).

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on September 05, 2011, 12:19:43 am
I don't heat my house. I heat the stove only!

 :lau:Now that's funny.  Is your stove outside?  Sorry, couldn't resist.  I feed my stove wood and it heats my house.  

How do you heat your stove (I'm thinking of something very funny, at least to me, but my girl think my sense of humor is warped).

thomas

i know where boca lives.

I think that his stove is really outside couple of  miles away. It is a huge gas power plant which generates electrict and remote heat to buildings.

It may be too that bocas house is not connected to areal heating.

Look from google "vuosaari power plant"

.

Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on September 05, 2011, 12:58:46 am
Quote
The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATE.....
It is hard to make money if you are not selling a lot of equipment and bees.  We have a large country with drastic differences in climate. 

 If your hive is made of a high R value insulation material what do you do in the summer when the bees don't need the heat?  Are you giving them a different hive or letting them deal with the heat?

I am asking, I don't know.  Which method produces the honey at the lowest cost, European, or American?

i know the answer.

First 15 years I had US style hive boxes. They were simple wood and paractically no insulation. I hve then still in use as supers.

I covered brood boxes with 10 mm insulating board. That moisture seal made the boxes rotten fast. However winter food consumpition droppef 30%. It means that in 9 months wintering 6 months food was enough to next summer. I need not beef hives in spring. I only evened the food frames.

No hives died for starving after insulation.

When i bought first polystyrene hives, they were really expencive. However their spring build up was so fast that they payed back the cost during first summer.  the honey yield is clearly bigger than in cold hives because the colony has longer season to forage surpluss.

Polystyrene box weight is  1 kg. It is good to back.

You need only 2 insulated box to achieve those advantages.


Polystyre hives is conguring Britain now. It is 25 years later when next door neighbour Denmark invented the commercial polyhive Nacca.

Britain has huge hive costs. Their 10 frames cost more than the box. Frame cost is 2,5 bigger than in Sweden or Finland. The beekeeping industry really piss on hobbyits in Britain. They are mad with their cedar national hives.

Second thing is ply as hive material. I do not know worse material.  Beekeeping has much to
learn but and but and but.



Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on September 05, 2011, 05:47:59 am
Quote
The u.s. goverment advice is that highly insulated are worse that  no insulation at all (BEEKEEPING IN THE UNITED STATES
AGRICULTURE HANDBOOK NUMBER 335)which goes againsts the  scientific european research findings.


It is hard to make money if you are not selling a lot of equipment and bees.  We have a large country with drastic differences in climate.  Bee practices are not all the same unless you only look at small areas that have developed a method that works.  The tar paper is a method of breaking the wind and absorbing the radiant heat from the sun that Michael spoke about.  If your hive is greatly insulated tar paper will not work.  If your hive is made of a high R value insulation material what do you do in the summer when the bees don't need the heat?  Are you giving them a different hive or letting them deal with the heat?

I am asking, I don't know.  Which method produces the honey at the lowest cost, European, or American?

Who sold the u.S on the tar paper idea? it doesnt work. only one side out of six get heated, the other 5 are still losing heat all day. The number of hours of darkness are greater than the daylight (thats winters outside the tropics).  if you do the math it does not work unless your sun is so strong you can fry chicken on the tar paper (180C).

In summer you open your top vent that you kept closed all winter
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: Finski on September 05, 2011, 07:41:38 am

Tar paper.
Actually if you use transparent plastic, it catch better the sun heat.
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: derekm on September 05, 2011, 08:56:56 am
here is the proof that tar paper doesnt work the way people think.
the average temperature in the box is when the heat losses equal the heat gains. The heat loss or gain is proportional to the temp difference multiplied by the time by the proportion of  surface area  being heated or cooled.

lets make things simple the fraction of the day that is daylight and hot sunshine is t and therefore fraction night is (1-t). The fraction of the box exposed to sun is B. The differnce between the box and night temp is N and the difference between box and sun lit surface is S

B.t/(1-t) = N/S. (this equation is an approximation to the full solution)

so if we have a 6hours of day light and the sun only reaches one side in six of a cube, then the difference between the box temp and the sunlit surface is 18 times the temp difference between the box temp and night time temperatures. 
example:
ambient = zero C
sun facing surfacetemp = 54C (that a temp too hot to keep your hand on for more than few seconds)
Average boxtemp 3C

lets go the other way:
ambient -20C
required box box temp -10c
then sunlit surface temp  needs to be +160C
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: T Beek on September 05, 2011, 09:09:12 am

Tar paper.
Actually if you use transparent plastic, it catch better the sun heat.

derekm; Not sure that your equation proves anything.  

Finski; I believe plastic would keep moisture (and any other harmful gases) inside.  Tar paper allows moisture to escape while protecting from wind and providing warmth on sunny days.  100 years of use by beekeepers around the globe is good enough for me.

thomas
Title: Re: beehive temp
Post by: boca on September 05, 2011, 10:08:46 am
B.t/(1-t) = N/S. (this equation is an approximation to the full solution)

so if we have a 6hours of day light and the sun only reaches one side in six of a cube, then the difference between the box temp and the sunlit surface is 18 times the temp difference between the box temp and night time temperatures.  

That is a neat explanation. Physics not believes.

Tar paper allows moisture to escape while protecting from wind and providing warmth on sunny days.  100 years of use by beekeepers around the globe is good enough for me.

Blood-letting was used for several hundreds of years for curing illnesses. It must work now as well.

Even if tar paper provides warmth on sunny days it is little help. Warmth is needed on dark and cold nights.