Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: VolunteerK9 on August 07, 2011, 11:52:21 pm

Title: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: VolunteerK9 on August 07, 2011, 11:52:21 pm
Sorry if youve already posted them somewhere, but I cant find them. Do you have any detailed pics on your R-10 nucs and how you put them together?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 08, 2011, 12:29:05 am
Hey K9, I was just thinking of starting a thread for homemade foam nuc designs.  It would be cool to see what other creative beeks have come up with too.  I’ve posted some photos of mine here and there in various threads, but not any detailed design photos.  Let me take some close up photos and I’ll post them here probably tomorrow.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: nella on August 08, 2011, 10:40:18 am
What is the inside surface of the hive made of? Dose wax or proplis stick to the surface? What kind of styrafoam are they made from?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: brushmouth on August 09, 2011, 12:22:09 pm
Blue or pink styrofoam.?
Be sure you use the HIGH density stuff (extremely fine grained)or the bees will chew it,
and may anyway.
I use 3/8 plywood on both ends for a frame ledge with 3/4 styrofoam outside of that.
You then have something to attach the entry disc to and frames are well supported.
I also spray paint latex both inside and outside of the nuc to help prevent the chewing.
Be sure to let it dry very well, I leave parts in the direct sun for a week.

I have 10 of these and overwintered 7 of them last year in my garage
(5 frame mediums, outside entry and feed)
Only problem I had was around the top lid they chewed the styrofoam up, I have corrected that with a
hot glued 1/4 wood strip on the top. It added the proper beespace and covered the softer edge.
All of my nucs were made with a hot glue gun only no nails or screws.
This year trying 6 frame wood (no more chewing)
Styrofoam nucs can't be beat for cost and you get the added advantage of insulation.
For shorter term use they can't be beat.
BM 
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 09, 2011, 01:09:03 pm
I’m just getting around to the photos and plans today…

Nella, my hives have an inner surface made of a thin wood material called lauan.  That’s about the lowest cost thinnest type of wood you can buy.  I gorilla glue pink foam onto that thin wood core.  That keeps the bees from chewing through the foam if they have the inclination to do so.  Like Brushmouth, my bees have only tried to chew around the top of the hive, but having a thin wood core is a guarantee against chewing.  

Derekm and Brushmouth, we’ll love to see some photos of your work.  It doesn’t take too many posts before you can post photos.  If you PM buzzbee he can add your photos sooner.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 09, 2011, 03:35:22 pm
I like a little more thermal insulation in my hives than the average bear so I have resorted to using a lot of low density (high R value) foam in my bee keeping.  I know that’s not everybody’s cup of tea and it’s not perfect, but for those interested in homemade insulated hives, I’ll share how I made mine. 

I have two basic designs I use for insulating hives/nucs.  One design essentially uses foam glued to the outsides of a thin inner wood core made of lauan.  These are light weight and the thin wooden core keeps the bees and pests from drilling through the foam.  My other design approach utilizes existing wood hives and covers them with a removable foam shell for insulation.  Each approach has its pros and cons. 

For my nucs, I prefer the foam glued to a thin wooden core design.  That results in the most compact design with the smallest volume for the bees to heat in the winter. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/Nuc1.jpg)

More photos of this design are in the following photobucket album.  I plan to add dimensions and comments on top of some of the photos as time permits.  Check back later for more photos and dimensions written on the photos.

http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/ (http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/)

Obviously you can scale this basic nuc concept to your needs.  My basic nuc configuration consists of a 5 frame deep bottom and a 2nd story medium body if the bees get too big before winter.  If I were doing only mediums, I would go with 6 to 8 frames for a nuc. 

For my full sized hives, I’ve tried to come up with a system for winter insulation, summer sun shielding, and the durability of wood.  Here I’m using a standard wood hive within a removable foam shell.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Shell%20Hives/Shell4.jpg)

More photos of this design are in the following photobucket album:
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Shell%20Hives/ (http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Shell%20Hives/)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: VolunteerK9 on August 09, 2011, 05:31:35 pm
Very nice. Thanks for the trouble.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: AllenF on August 09, 2011, 05:38:44 pm
Great pics.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on August 10, 2011, 12:29:20 am
One of the biggest challenges I found was trying to get the hives to look nice. You have certainly managed that! I have used 2" 50mm foil covered low density polyurethane foam, then coated the cut edges in polyester resin and fibre glasstissue. No chewing to date. The foil covered PU is used I
in the building trade here and plentiful and cheap. It's easily worked with table saw,  chop saw and routers. As regards thermal values it quite a bit better than polystyrene (styrofoam) 2" being the equivalent of 3" of polystyrene. In the UK this material is known by the trademark Kingspan
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 10, 2011, 01:00:39 am
Can’t wait to see your work Derekm, it sounds like you’ve got some interesting hives over there! 

I have used some foil coated 1” polyurethane for a plant propagator experiment about 5 years ago.  The stuff is still holding up outside exposed to our elements.  I’ve never seen 2” thick PU here.  I believe the PU here is open cell, but I could be wrong. 

The stuff I used is the lowest cost, most common option locally available.  People here will know it by its color:  “the pink stuff” or the “blue stuff”.  They are both closed cell expanded polystyrene with a R value of 5 per inch.  Not sure if you use “R values” for thermal conductivity over there in the UK or not.

The “blue” stuff is a generally a bit more expensive than the “pink” stuff because it is rated for a higher mechanical compression strength (higher psi).

Too bad Aerogel isn’t more affordable  :-D
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: bee-nuts on August 10, 2011, 06:09:16 am
Blue bee.  Can you show how you make your boxes. 
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on August 10, 2011, 12:43:13 pm
...  I’ve never seen 2” thick PU here.  I believe the PU here is open cell, but I could be wrong. 

...  Not sure if you use “R values” for thermal conductivity over there in the UK or not.
...

We have upto 6" thick PU in building yards.
W/mK  is used 0.021 for PU 0.03 for PS and 0.14 for oak.

I have an excel  spreadsheet that will give the max and min outside temps  that the bees can maintain at 34C without clustering or fanning for any hive type and material.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on August 10, 2011, 03:56:47 pm
Those look great blue bee.
Your just applying the luan skin to the interior...correct? I didn't realize the foam would glue and paint so cleanly.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 10, 2011, 11:23:08 pm
Derekm, I prefer to work in SI units too.  Unfortunately, here in America, we’re still stuck in some old (English?) ways of doing things :-D   Love the Brits, just not the British units!

Windfall, yes there is only lauan on the inside of the nucs.  The outside surface is pure foam.  I paint them with a latex primer (I’ve used ACEs and 1-2-3 Bullseye, both work fine) then top coat with semi gloss latex, 2 coats.  You do have to paint the low density foam if you want it to last.  The UV rays from the Sun quickly turn the stuff to dust without paint.  If you really want to be impressed with how Foam can be worked, check out some of the videos on Youtube about making Halloween cemetery markers.  Just amazing what those folks can turn foam into.

Bee-Nuts, I am hoping to add some comments and dimensions to the photos on my photobucket link, but haven’t gotten to it yet.  If I was going to build new ones, I might first laminate the foam to the wood and then simply cut out “sides” and cut out “ends”, butt joint, and glue with a polyurethane glue (ie  gorilla glue).  That would certainly be a strong enough joint for a nuc.  

However my original assembly process was:
1.) cut sides out of lauan
2.) cut ends out of ¾” stock lumber.
3.) cut frame rests into ¾” stock ends.
4.) Butt joint and glue the lauan sides to the ¾” stock ends.  I air stapled the lauan to the ¾” ends.
5.) Let glue dry.
6.) Cut foam on the table saw to the same height as your wood core.  (i.e. deep or medium height).
7.) Chop the foam slices to the length you want to cover the sides and ends of your inner wood core.
8.) I used Polyurethane glue (like Gorilla glue) and glued the foam to the inner wood core.  You need to clamp the foam in place until it dries since the PU glue will expand/move the joints if you don’t.  The clamping part is the real pain in the butt part of the process.  Clamping slows down assembly.
9.) Next I glued and screwed on some ¾” stock vertical boards for pry points (needed if you’re going to super you nucs and want to use the hive tool).
10.) Finally I screwed a ¾” stock horizontal handle on each end into the pry boards on step 9.

I know that isn’t a great description.  Hopefully I can do better annotating the photos.  Keep in mind you can be creative here and construct these things in a fashion that you might find simpler.  I think there probably is a simpler way to construct these things.  The lamination first approach seems like a good idea to me.  Then it’s simply like making any old nuc, but you’re working with 2” thick boards!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on August 10, 2011, 11:45:04 pm

BlueBee

How large a space do you leave between the hive and the inside of the insulation.

John
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 11, 2011, 12:17:09 am
John, I assume you’re asking about my full sized hive / shell system in your question.

In that design, I leave ¾” space between the foam shells and the inner wood hive.  ¾” on all sides.  I think some space is good for a few reasons:  The gap makes it easier to remove the shells, a little air space is good to prevent mold on the outside of your wood hive, I have screened bottoms boards under my wood hive and they provide fresh bottom air to the bees from the air space between the foam and the wood hive.  The air gap is also very helpful in the summer when you want to break the R value of the system so that the foam just acts as a sun shield and not a super strong insulator. 

In the winter you want a high R value system to hold in the heat.  In the summer, you really don’t want to hold in a lot a heat.  In the summer you want a solar shield to block the 400+ watts of heat that hits the hive from the Sun.  2” of foam will do a lot of blocking. 

In my nuc design, there is NO gap between the inner wood core and the foam.  In the nucs, the foam is glued directly to the inner lauan wood core.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on August 11, 2011, 09:49:08 am
This my first Nuc in 50mm foil covered polyurethane foam with polyester resin and fibreglass tissue to protect the cut ends. The entrance is angled down at 45 degrees again to retain heat with a plastic mesh alighting ramp. Even allowing for a smaller heat out put of 8.5w the bees in the Nuc should be able to keep this a snug 34c inside  with an outside temp of -3.11 c and not need to start fanning until outside goes above 24c. In the  full size hive they should be ok down to -17C 
(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1617).  

The floor section is 150mm high with two resin covered grills to give around 75mm of calm air under the floor. So to give ventilation and allow mite rubbish etc to fall out but preserve insulation.

lower grill
(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1620)

upper grill (floor)
(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1618)

the grills were created using a router. And covered with polyester resin.


The frame rails were cut out of ally angle.  here is the  nuc parts and the full size hive behind
(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1619)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on August 12, 2011, 12:22:40 am

BlueBee.

Thanks for the info. I'm running a larger 1 1/2" space in mine. I also think the air space is key for the reasons you stated. I only had one hive last winter so i won't make any claims here. The bee's did seem to go threw a lot of stores but i don't mind as long as they survive. Good luck and keep us informed.


John
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on August 12, 2011, 10:53:17 pm
I normally get my foam from Home Depot and they carry the pink stuff.  I believe Lowes carries the blue stuff.  I did a little surfing today to compare pink to blue.  From what I’ve read, they’re the same exact product, just produced by different companies.  

The blue stuff is made by Dow Chemical.
The pink stuff is made by Owens Corning.

They both make versions of foam that are rated at various levels of compressive strength.  Both are the same thing; extruded polystyrene foam.  The just add a pigment into the foam to make it pink or blue.  That's why the marketeers make the big $$$$ ;)

Here’s a link to the data sheet for the Dow foam (aka blue stuff):
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0813/0901b80380813717.pdf?filepath=styrofoam/pdfs/noreg/179-02548.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc (http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0813/0901b80380813717.pdf?filepath=styrofoam/pdfs/noreg/179-02548.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc)

Here’s a link to the data sheet for the Owens Corning foam (aka pink stuff):
http://www.tlpinsulation.com/images%20from%20tammy/Foamular400.pdf (http://www.tlpinsulation.com/images%20from%20tammy/Foamular400.pdf)

Wow, I didn’t know they make this stuff up to 4” thick.  Bees in Barrow, Alaska anybody?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on September 03, 2011, 09:16:26 am
Hey Bluebee,

I think I will be building a couple of these this weekend, more or less to your design.
How has the glue joint betwean the 3/4 end and foam held up to seasonal movement? I Had assumed you were using ply everywhere you were bonding to foam until I read the photo captions. I am considering using thin (3/16") white cedar instead of luan but was a bit worried about losing bond through expansion contraction cycles.

Also Why do you have the extended entrance on the nucs? I assumed it was on the full sized wood hives to get them past the foam shell when you apply it. What purpose does it serve on the nucs.

I notice the lids apear to function more or less like migratory tops. Have they behaved well in terms of not wicking moisture/rain in along the top/body joint?

Last question, regarding your screen tops...how much do you like them? What downsides(if any) do you see?

Thanks for putting these up.
By the way, you are correct PU sheet foam here in US is primarily open cell and will saturate when exposed to continued wetness
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 03, 2011, 12:16:59 pm
Hi Windfall, I recently made up a couple more super insulated nucs to hold my extra deep (10K cells) frames.  For these nucs I tried the idea of laminating the foam to the wood FIRST, and then cutting to size.  This allowed for a much simpler construction process than my earlier design.  Less clamping and less sliding around of foam parts.

The only downside I see with the lamination first approach vs lamination later approach is the first uses no nails to hold the sides to the ends; it’s a total glue job.  If you laminate after making a wood core, you have the opportunity to use nails into the end wood if you choose.

Here’s a photo of my newest builds using the lamination first approach.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/ExtraDeepNucs/XDNuc1.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 03, 2011, 12:42:35 pm
Now to some of your questions:

How has the luaun to solid wood joint held up?
In the original design, I built the inner wood core first and then glued on slabs of foam.  That gave me the opportunity to glue and nail the luaun sides to the solid wood ends.  The foam was then glued to the wood (and itself) with polyurethane glue (like gorilla glue).  After a year outside in Michigan I can report the joints are as solid as the rock of Gibraltar (metaphorically speaking).  The glue is super strong and the poly glue will tolerate some flex so I have had no joint issues whatsoever.  As for expansion and contraction, yes that is a valid concern, but in a super insulated hive the wood isn’t going to see the temperature extremes of your winter/summer.  That might mitigate the concern a little.  For me, I have had zero joint problems in Michigan.

Why do you have such extended entrances on your foam nucs?
I don’t recommend them.  Just a product of a lot of re-designing and re-working of my original boxes.

Do you migratory like tops wick in moisture?
The tops are pure foam, sans a couple of 1.5” strips of wood on the top to protect the foam from a rock.  They also over hang the sides of the nucs a bit (about an inch).  I have not had any moisture getting into the hives around the tops.

How much do you like your screen tops?
I LOVE my screen tops.  It makes it SOOOO much easier to look in on nucs to see how they’re doing without really disturbing them.  The screen tops also gives me a lot more control over the insulation and ventilation capacity of the hives.  Finally I have started putting feed/water pans on the tops of my frames for feeding.  I can now dump sugar/syrup and water through the screen top without disturbing the bees.  This has worked out great so far.  Less robbing, no ants, no drowned bees.  I think it will also work out great for checking the nucs in the winter and adding more winter sugar if needed. 
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on September 03, 2011, 01:03:07 pm
Thanks, this all helps. I had considered laminating first but really don't like all that end grain and thermal breaks (very minor). Although I am sure it greatly speeds construction. Also I do like some mechanical fasteners when I can use them.

you misunderstood my bond concern. It was the foam to solid lumber lamination (as opposed to ply) that I was curious about. And not so much heat and cold causing movement but moisture changes. But really I suspect the hive maintains a pretty steady humidity most of the time...and the surface areas are not that big.

I have two small swarms from this summer that have just about filled out 5 frames each. I think these will make a great home for them over the winter. And I may well build some "shells" for a couple 8 and 10 frame deeps (1 box hives)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 03, 2011, 01:28:37 pm
I had considered laminating first but really don't like all that end grain and thermal breaks (very minor). Although I am sure it greatly speeds construction. Also I do like some mechanical fasteners when I can use them.
Very good points.  Nothing wrong with the original process, just keep an eye out on the foam when you glue and clamp it to the wood core.  The foam has a tendency to want to slide on you until the glue sets up a little.  If it slides, you end up with gaps in the mating surfaces which are difficult to fix.  Those gaps can make thermal breaks.  If you do end up with some uneven mating surfaces, you can glue on some of the flexible foam stuff for an air tight fit.  I use water based contact cement to glue on the flexible foam since PU glue won’t stick to it.

Quote
you misunderstood my bond concern. It was the foam to solid lumber lamination (as opposed to ply) that I was curious about.
You’re right, I misunderstood the question.  Sounds like you were really asking if the foam delaminates do to expansion/contraction rates that differ from the foam.   I have not seen any delamination.  I’m guessing that foam can be stretched and contracted in this case without delamination but I don’t know for sure.

I can tell you from experience that luaun exposed to a Michigan winter will completely delaminate in one season.  You probably already know that, based on your concerns.  I have not had any luaun delaminate inside the nucs but I would certainly not be opposed to using the higher grade plywood inside like you’re talking about.  Luaun is cheap, but the top layer is no thicker than paper.

A person could also use a non wood inner core, but I like the idea of a little wood in the nuc!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 03, 2011, 02:03:14 pm
Do you migratory like tops wick in moisture?
The tops are pure foam, sans a couple of 1.5” strips of wood on the top to protect the foam from a rock.  They also over hang the sides of the nucs a bit (about an inch).  I have not had any moisture getting into the hives around the tops.

Oops, let me clarify that statement.  I just looked at my photo on page 1 of this post!

I see in that photo, the edges of my top cover appear to be wood.  That is true.  Those were the first tops I made.  On the original tops I cut a foam slab out for the top and then wrapped a 1x3 around it to protect the foam. 

I have done away with that 1x3 wood wrap in all subsequent builds.  For me, gluing that wood around the edges of the foam was extra work without any real benefit in my bee yard.  The wood does provide mechanical protection to the top cover if you fear banging it around and denting an edge.

All my new tops are pure foam with just 2 rails of wood on top to protect the foam from a weight stone. 

Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 03, 2011, 06:47:24 pm
my nuc

(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1617)]]

and bits

(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1619)

lower grid (entrance removed)

(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1620)


floor (entrance removed)

(http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/picture.php?albumid=289&pictureid=1618)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 05, 2011, 03:27:16 am
OK, I FINALLY got some photos marked up how to make these things.

I made up some more nucs recently and took photos of the assembly process this time.  Decided to change my assembly process this time around to make them a little quicker to build.  My newest builds start by laminating the foam to the wood FIRST.  My original process started by assembling a wood core FIRST and THEN gluing on the foam.  Both approaches have their pros and cons.

So far I like the new process because it is faster to build and more idiot proof than the original process; I’m not the greatest wood worker around.

Here is a photo montage of my assembly process.
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Foam%20Nucs/Montoge.jpg)

You can see all the photos in their full size on my photobucket album here:
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Foam%20Nucs/ (http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Foam%20Nucs/)

My latest builds were 5 frame nucs for my extra deep (10K cell) frames.  I have been experimenting with larger comb bee keeping this summer and will probably need these nucs next spring.  I already have all the foam medium and deep nucs I need, so you’ll have to adjust your assembly process a little when building shallower boxes.  I believe you can get 3 deep nucs out of sheet of foam or 4 mediums.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Grieth on September 05, 2011, 05:08:05 am
Bluebee,

Thats a great set of photos and explanations!

If there was an award for presenting new ideas to the forum, you should be nominated.

Thanks

Grieth
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on September 05, 2011, 09:27:34 am
These are great Bluebee.
I am about half way through construction on 2. It is true that the foam wants to slide around quite a bit. The key with poly glues is a very thin layer and lots of clamp pressure but the clamps have to be run dead square to your work. Even a bit of kick will cause the laminate to slide until they are. With sturdier materials you can place a few referance tacks to locate a piece but the foam won't index....too soft. Next time I may cut the foam pieces a bit extra wide (1/8 or so)and then true them to the wood box with a sandingboard after cure so as not to be fussing with alignment so much.

If you continue to laminate first I would suggest sealing the endgrain of the ply with two coats of epoxy, about 30 min apart.

I am trying to track down some ventilation references that I know I have read in the past 6 months regarding insulated nucs. They probably came from either Robo or Finski as those guys seem to have a fair bit of experience with them. I feel like it was something like a 1/2" or 3/4" hole at the top in addition to a reduced bottom entrance.

It would seem to me that getting your ventilation balanced right is going to be key to making these work succesfully. especially at the nuc scale (vs full hive) Too much and you have wasted the time in insulating. too little and it is going to be a wet moldy mess.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 05, 2011, 03:44:15 pm
Grieth, thanks so much for your kind words!

Windfalll, I believe Finski reports using a top vent hole the size where you can poke a finger into it.  On my nucs last year I used a top vent that was about 15mm x 9mm.  However I did not have instrumentation in the nucs to monitor the temps so I don’t know yet what is really optimal. 

My experience with mold is similar to your concern.  In my climate, when I do not have a small top and small bottom entrance/vent it gets too stuffy inside and mold can and will grow.  With instrumentation I hope to tune my bottom entrance and top vent sizes this winter for optimal values. 

Windfall, it sounds like you are likely a much better wood worker than I am.  It would be great to see your finished nucs when you get them done!  My tools and skills are relatively crude when it comes to fine woodworking.  Thanks for the idea for protecting those luaun edges. 
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 05, 2011, 03:52:57 pm
For readers concerned about a top vent letting all the heat out:

A huge top vent will obviously let most of the hives heat out; just as a huge hole in a human house roof will let most of the heat out.  A small top vent limits the rate of heat escaping and still leaves most heat trapped inside the hive.  Human houses have all kinds of small holes around electrical outlets/ceiling light junction boxes that also let heat out, but it is the size of these holes that is important.   Small holes limit the loss of heat while still allowing some of the highest dew point water vapor to exit from the hive.  Yes, you will loose some heat with a top vent, but a hive (or human house) doesn’t instantly freeze up due to a small hole in the ceiling.

My current foam nuc designs have a top vent that I can adjust according to the season.  It is adjustable by stuffing a strip of flexible pink foam gasket material in a top crack that is intentionally left open.  Here’s a photo of my top vent setup.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Foam%20Nucs/NucTopVent.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 07, 2011, 06:03:21 am
Entrance design is a crucial part of the heat balance.  How to preserve heat yet allow bees free movement in winter and how to allow the bees to cool by fanning in summer.

I have seen that in some wooden designs,  that some have a entrance where the bees climb upwards into the hive. I have also been told and seen the bees propensity to move upwards into dark spaces.

I decided that for my designs I would have a steeply,  sloping ,long, (75 to 100mm) insulated, tunnel entrance so the the outside entrance was below inside floor level. This would help preserve the heat bubble in the hive in winter (heat rises CO2 falls) and to have a wide (75% hive width) and low (12mm) entrance so the bees could keep cool and defend  in summer. The wide tunnel can be  reduced at the hive end by thin plastic strips (acetate presentation slide material). The inside of  the foam tunnel  is protected  from the bees using a coating of polyester or epoxy resin.

Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 07, 2011, 01:42:13 pm
Derekm, you definitely have some interesting ideas.  I can’t disagree with your physics.  I also agree that your approach is probably more thermally efficient than mine.  I view my foam hives as a work in progress.  They’re not perfect.  I go through the typical development process with these things.  Design based on what I know, build units, hive some bees and monitor the results.  Make changes based on what worked and didn’t work and repeat the process.  I try not to have too many iterations of the development process, but when dealing with bees, unexpected problems can arise.    

We have weeks and weeks of temperatures that never get above 0C for highs here mid winter.  A cold spell would be lows down to about -30C.  The great lakes moderate our winter lows by keeping a lot of cloud cover (insulation) over head most of the winter.  

My goal last winter was to keep my bees warm enough so they didn’t’ have to cluster (60 to 70F; 15C to 21C).  My reasoning was, if they don’t have to cluster, they can’t starve to death in the middle of winter from being frozen in one spot in the hive.  After a development cycle of such a design, I discovered an un-expected problem in my bee yard.  The bees loved the warm temps, but so did the wax moths.  

This year, I’m relaxing my thermal goals a little.  My goal this winter is more modest, I just want to keep them from experiencing the full brunt of a Michigan winter.  My current design goal is to not overheat them.  If I loose some thermal efficiency due to the chimney effect; that’s acceptable to me.  I won’t really know for sure how wise, or un-wise, this strategy is until spring.

BTW, last year I used a top only entrance/vent.  There were NO bottom holes.  I was more concerned about the heat loss due to the chimney effect last winter.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 07, 2011, 02:14:55 pm
Bluebee,
   I checked out the over heating by running the hive temp figures with two values of heat output  Corresponding to the endothermic and and ectothemic outputs (heater bees and just lounging around). This then gives a temperature range the bees can control themselves by regulating  the type activity.  Given the number of bees varifres with the size of hive I worked out that   endo = 524 W/m3 and ecto  =154w/m3.
So if your nuc is a langstroth with 50mm styrofoam you are ok for 34C internally with an outside temp range of  26C to 7C. From the volume of hive  I estimate endo = 11.2w and ecto= 3.3w So open that topvent when the outside temp gets above 20c ;). This all assumes you have the right number of bees for the volume. Running the figures on my nuc (a British national 50mm PU foam) gives an outside temp range of 23 to -3)
So it was not surprising that when I closed up the entrance in 26C,  they started producing queen cells to swarm.
I moved them to the full size hive but dummied down.  They continued to want to swarm until I opened the entrance wide and just cracked open one of the 4 top vents. A week later the outside temperature drops to 20c and the bees now are trying to propolise over every vent. We have now reverted to unvented but  keeping the entrance wide.
   I have learned you keep the heat bubble in but ensure the bees have enough air to manipulate the temperature. I also learned that a hole, just 3mm by 10mm in the top of the hive, can nock 8C off the hive floor temp in one minute.
So when someone say the vent should the size of a dime, they should mean edge on!

-30c and a langstroth nuc that needs 100mm polyurethane but get ready to open the vent when temp comes up to 16c.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on September 07, 2011, 05:02:42 pm
Derek,

Those are interesting results. When you opened the venting and saw the 8 degree drop in a minuet: did the hive temp stabilize after that to a new norm or did it continue to drop to ambient temp? What size hive was this?
This may be a regional terminology issue. But do you mean to imply you are controlling swarming with hive temp? or do you mean bees clinging outside the hive which we call bearding?

Bluebee,

I thought your problem with "overheating" and wax moths was in one of your hives running heat?

I may have to PM robo or finski and request their experiences with venting /entrance and insulated nucs. I think this thread may be off their radar. The  "finger hole" top vent Finski described I believe was on a full size hive. It might even be worth starting a new thread on just this topic, but in the past top entrance and venting seem to really stir up a slew of theoretical argument than a tally of actual regional experience

Separately, I would add that with the 2 nucs I am building almost done I have to say they are pretty labor intensive to make (especially if you want them smooth and nice looking) and not particularly cheap in material. Definitely one of those projects you need to enjoy the tinkering to be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 07, 2011, 07:36:33 pm
Derekm, thanks for your calculations.  I would say your numbers are fairly close to what I have been observing.  The differences are probably in the amount of air infiltration I have with my top vent and a chimney effect (albeit small). 

One of my double decker foam nucs was bearding earlier this week on a cloudy 57F/14C day.  I checked my vent which was suppose to be about 220mm x 4mm, but the stone weight on top had squished the vent down to about 200mm x 1mm.  That was trapping in too much heat and causing bearding at 14C.

As you point out, a person needs to remember to open up the venting on a foam hive when it gets mild outside!

With a fairly small top vent, I seem to still be capable of achieving a heat gain of +35F/20C inside the hive just from the bees.  For my bee yard, that is probably good enough since I have to worry about the dang wax moths.

Windfall, my wax moth issues last winter were in electrically heated nucs, but my guess is the buggers don’t care how they get warmed up; electric or super insulation.  May not be an issue in other bee yards, but in mine I need to plan my thermal design around the wax moth life cycle too.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: cam on September 08, 2011, 02:08:08 pm
Might want to check out these links:

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31651.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31651.0.html)

http://latshawapiaries.com/uploads/wintering-nucs.pdf (http://latshawapiaries.com/uploads/wintering-nucs.pdf)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 08, 2011, 04:05:02 pm
Derekm, thanks for your calculations.  I would say your numbers are fairly close to what I have been observing.  The differences are probably in the amount of air infiltration I have with my top vent and a chimney effect (albeit small).  

One of my double decker foam nucs was bearding earlier this week on a cloudy 57F/14C day.  I checked my vent which was suppose to be about 220mm x 4mm, but the stone weight on top had squished the vent down to about 200mm x 1mm.  That was trapping in too much heat and causing bearding at 14C.

As you point out, a person needs to remember to open up the venting on a foam hive when it gets mild outside!

With a fairly small top vent, I seem to still be capable of achieving a heat gain of +35F/20C inside the hive just from the bees.  For my bee yard, that is probably good enough since I have to worry about the dang wax moths.

Windfall, my wax moth issues last winter were in electrically heated nucs, but my guess is the buggers don’t care how they get warmed up; electric or super insulation.  May not be an issue in other bee yards, but in mine I need to plan my thermal design around the wax moth life cycle too.

 You need to watch out for "Crowded pub syndrome".  All day the the pub has been emptish  but the doors been left open so the barmaid has turned the heat up. Then a crowd descends on the on the Pub and all of sudden its far too hot and so half the  patrons are drinking their beer outside.
 The bees have the heat turned up for the brood during the day cos the vents are open , then the foragers come home and then its far too hot.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 10, 2011, 08:09:58 pm
blue beehow is the progress inside the nucs?  I've  been surprised at the rate of progress inside my foam hive. 5  weeks saw them fill the nuc with brood and stores  4 weeks has seen a doubling in brood size  from 3 frames to 7  frames  with brood  9 frames drawn with remarkably few bees.  Removing the need to cover the brood with a thick layer of bees means the hive  can grow much quicker. Fewer bees covering means more brood can be raised per bee, fewer covering bees means more of the food can go to develop comb and brood. Everything is happening faster. They are foraging off the heather and have taken a kilo of sugar in just under a week as well.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Sparky on September 10, 2011, 09:53:33 pm
Back to the protecting the exposed luaun edge on the outside surface. Have you tried to just miter a 45 on the edges of the sides and ends so the luaun would be totally concealed on the inside and provide more surface area to apply glue on the corners ?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 10, 2011, 10:35:25 pm
Actually out in the barn tonight making more of these dang foam nucs!  My 5 frame deep nucs are getting too crowded.

I think you might be onto something Sparky.  In this batch, I once again used the lamination process since it seems faster to me.  However this time, I plan to feed each laminated side piece through the saw for one final pass to nibble off a kerf or two on the luaun on the ends.

Then when I glue the things up, there will be a channel about 1/8” deep with the luaun edges at the bottom of the channel.  I then plan to fill that with caulk or more Gorilla glue to seal the edges and bring it flush to the surface.  

My design is still in flux, plenty of room for refinement.  Keep the ideas coming!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 11, 2011, 07:52:53 am
what do coat the wood with?
have you tried epoxy?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on September 11, 2011, 09:07:48 am
I was thinking if I did more, that I would laminate first. Then when the pieces are cut use the table saw to remove 2" of luan (or better yet masonite..no formaldehyde) from the appropriate edges. Then the pieces would self reference for assembly and clamping and the endgrain all be buried.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 11, 2011, 02:42:54 pm
DerekM, I am letting my poly glue foam into the channel gap left when I trimmed back the edges of luaun by a blade kerf width (photo below).  I then trim that with a razor and caulk over to fill any air bubble voids.  Epoxy would be an excellent choice too, but I don’t have any in my supplies.

Windfall, I kind of like your idea of back cutting 2” of lamination off the side pieces to hide the end grain and make them self reference.  I hadn’t thought of that idea.

Folks, it’s pretty much a full weekend project to make a batch of these things.  I’m hoping to finish building today and get a coat of primer on.  This new batch is 8 frames wide and holds deep frames.  My process is coming along pretty well, but I still found a thing or two I would change for the next batch….God forbid I have to make more!

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/Deep8NucEnds.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Sparky on September 11, 2011, 09:17:58 pm
That is the great thing about beekeeping. There is always things to build or changes to make to improve the equipment that you are using to help keep the bees living or just to make the craft easier on yourself so it is not as much work. Nice job on the insulated hives don't forget to post the results after winter to let us know how you made out.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 12, 2011, 01:27:03 am
Another thing I’ve found very helpful when using the lamination first approach, is the use of water weight.  I can’t think of a quicker, simpler way to add weight to hold parts down.  The Polyurethane glue I use tries to expand and separate the parts as it foams up.  It requires a lot of weight (or less glue?) to prevent this problem.

I can’t take credit for the water weight idea though.  I was inspired by the genius of the AceBird on this one.   I would have used 5 gallon buckets if I had a bunch of spare ones.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/WaterWeight1.jpg)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/WaterWeight2.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 20, 2011, 07:53:37 pm
I moved a couple of my late season nuc into new 8 frame foam nucs today. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/Nuc5toNuc8move.jpg)

My little late summer splits are doing pretty well in their foam homes.  They were 2 deep frame splits.  The queens just started laying about Sept 2nd.  They’ve brooded up their 2 initial frames and combed up and brooded up a third with foundation.  They’ve covered the frames with about 70% brood so I should have about 12,000 new winter bees pouring into these bigger foam boxes over the next week.   

The nuc on the far side of the bench is my original 5 frame foam nuc design.  A 5f deep with 5f medium super.  They’re doing well too.  The 5 frame nucs were built with 2” foam, the 8 frame units 1.5” foam.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on September 21, 2011, 06:59:14 pm
whats the end one called PV=NRT ?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 21, 2011, 10:07:31 pm
Don’t worry; I didn’t forget your countryman Boyle.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/Foam8FFeeding.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Grieth on September 22, 2011, 10:56:36 am
Are you suggesting that the Styrofoam nucs give your bees so much gas you can measure it by the pressure buildup in the nuc (hence the note of the formula on the hive) :-D
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BBees on September 25, 2011, 09:45:15 am
Bluebee,
I really like your idea. Hives I've played with adding supplemental heat did great. But, maybe you can help me figure out how to use your idea in my out apiaries for overwintering nucs. Moisture seems to be my biggest problem here in north/central NY. Despite the cold winter temps, the relative humidity is often 90+%. Up to this point, my best defense against the moisture has been leaving the SBB open year round, top entrances, 1/2 hole in each box, and quit feeding syrup by Oct. 1st. Even with that, I have dead-outs in the spring just dripping wet. (As a side note, I left some boxes with extra frames of honey in the out-apiaries for spring feed, and they were soaking wet in the spring too!) Any suggestions on how I could use your design and avoid the moisture build-up issue? Do you think a form of quilt boxes adapted to your design are in my future?

Thanks, Steve
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 26, 2011, 01:15:22 am
BBees you’ve got some good questions, and I don’t have all the answers. 

I did not have any moisture problems in my foam nucs last winter, but I still don’t have enough data/experience in these foam units to make many strong conclusions.  As Finski preaches, bees in foam consume a lot less stores.  The less honey consumed, the less CO2 and H2O vapor the bees will generate.  I speculate that the lesser amount of H2O generated by the bees and the top vent allows enough moisture to escape to prevent moisture problems in the nuc. 

If you wanted to add a quilt (or quilt box) on top of one of these foam nucs, that would be fairly easy to accomplish with my current design.  As you can see in the photo above, I currently use a screened inner cover.   That allows me to easily see how the bees are doing and pour syrup into the food tray (orange thing you see in the photo) to feed them.  There is no reason you couldn’t throw a quilt on top of that screen if you wanted. 

This winter I’m wintering in both my original 2 story 5d+5m nucs and this new 8 frame deep design.  This is another experiment to see what  works best.  I know bees like to move up in wood hives during the winter.  However I’m not convinced that is necessary in warmer foam hives.  I would prefer single story foam nucs if they winter just as well.  There are some management issues that work better with just a single story.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BBees on September 26, 2011, 08:18:17 am
Bluebee, thanks for the reply. I appreciate the work you are doing and your posts. Finding the right temperature/moisture balance for overwintering seems to my biggest challenge in beekeeping.

Good point on less H2O and CO2 from less consumption of stores. I would have to think the warmer environment also widens the temp/dew point spread. Either way, you seem to be on the right track for finding the right temperature/moisture balance to get your girls through winter.

I also like your single hive management idea.

Time to go to the shop and see what I've got to work with.

Thanks again, Steve
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on September 26, 2011, 03:02:06 pm
It might be worth mentioning that there are a few things I don’t like about my 5 frame foam nucs.

When I make up a nuc, I invariably end up with frames that are wider than 35mm and that makes my 5 frame nucs too cramped.  My 5 frames nucs have an inner width of 192mm.  The outer honey frames in your donor hives are almost always much fatter than 35mm.  If you use one of them for a food frame in a 5 frame nuc, you can only fit in 4 frames. 

Summer splits build up fast in these 5 frame nucs and that requires more attention to prevent swarming.  You either have to pull frames of brood or add a super.  Pulling frames can result in pulling a queen too.  Adding a foam super creates its own set of problems.  The fatter matting surface between the foam boxes results in a lot of bees getting squished if you remove the super to inspect the bottom box.  One of those bees could be your queen.  Over time all the dead squished bees compromise the thermals of the mating surfaces.  The bees don’t care much for getting squished either. 

Supering foam units also means you have to design in some system for splitting the boxes apart when the bee propolize them together.  You can’t stick a hive tool between 2 pieces of low density foam and pry without the foam giving way.  You have to design in extra pieces of wood for that purpose.   

I think it takes about 8 deep frames in the spring for a colony to really take off and/or replace a dead out.  5 frames is just a bit sub optimal in my opinion.

These are some of the reasons my new foam nucs now hold 8 frames and are 12.25” (311mm) wide inside.  Granted, that is a little too big if you only have 2 or 3 frames of bees you’re trying to winter. However if you only have 2 or 3 frames of bees you’re probably going to need to add some electric heat and room to fit the electronics in.  An 8 frame design might work best for that too.  It has room for electronics and/or more insulation for really small colonies. 

A 8 frame nuc is a better fit for a mid summer split IMO.  Easier to deal with on all fronts.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Sparky on September 29, 2011, 09:23:52 pm
Bluebee, you may want to consider rubbing a small amount of vaseline between your boxes. Here is another option.
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Case-of-100-Hive-Corner-Protectors/productinfo/561H/ (http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Case-of-100-Hive-Corner-Protectors/productinfo/561H/)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on October 08, 2011, 04:45:55 pm
here are the photo of my mk1 PU foam hives from a more accessible location .The Mk 2 has ally corner reinforcement as well.

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0025.jpg)

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0023.jpg)

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0022.jpg)

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0020.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on October 08, 2011, 04:58:46 pm
Very nice derekm.

You’ve got some very interesting design ideas.  I love it!

First off, what is that greenish mesh like thing sticking out your bottom entrance?  Does that get shoved in to the hive for a screen bottom, or it is some form of landing board?

Next, what is your bottom baffles made from?  Plastic? Wood?

What type of coating do you have on the outside of the foam?  Looks like more than just a layer of paint?

How do you pry your boxes apart without denting the foam?

What’s on the inside surface of your foam?  Foil?

Thanks for posting the photos!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on October 08, 2011, 05:07:06 pm
Very nice derekm.

You’ve got some very interesting design ideas.  I love it!

First off, what is that greenish mesh like thing sticking out your bottom entrance?  Does that get shoved in to the hive for a screen bottom, or it is some form of landing board?
The green tongue is the landing board. The guard bees seem to monitor it for vibrations, a tap and a bee appears.
Quote
Next, what is your bottom baffles made from?  Plastic? Wood?
Thats PU foam shaped witha router then resin applied.
Quote
What type of coating do you have on the outside of the foam?  Looks like more than just a layer of paint?
The foam is ally foil coated as bought, I then gave it a layer of resin then paint
Quote
How do you pry your boxes apart without denting the foam?
T the full size hive has anti propolising gaskets so its not such a problem, However mk 2 has 2" ally angle  corners,
Quote
What’s on the inside surface of your foam?  Foil?
Yes thats as delivered. Our building trade uses a lot of ally foil covered PU foam, so its cheap and easily available.

Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: gregted on October 08, 2011, 06:23:09 pm
Nice work Derekm,

I have some foam that used to be on an extension for a caravan annex that is about 2 inches thick. Might have a go at these soon.

What do you glue yours together with?

What is the purpose of the grid in the bottom of your base?

On another post earlier in this thread, someone had a problem with the internal dimensions of their nuc. 196 mm is very tight. 35 x 5 is only 195 so no room for wire, nail heads etc..

I make mine 200 mm internal. This gives room for slightly larger frames and still keeps the leftover space under the bee-space pf 9.5 mm so they shouldn't propolise it. At least that's the plan...

Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on October 08, 2011, 07:06:23 pm
Nice work Derekm,

I have some foam that used to be on an extension for a caravan annex that is about 2 inches thick. Might have a go at these soon.

What do you glue yours together with?
either polyester ot epoxy resin
Quote

What is the purpose of the grid in the bottom of your base?
there are two grids they act as  a reduced area omf, but  100% garbarge shutes. the bottom grid is a baffle to reduce air flow  caused by external wind to keep the heat bubble intact.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on October 08, 2011, 07:50:29 pm
Gregted, I use polyurethane glue to glue my foam nucs together.  The PU glue is most commonly sold under the brand name “gorilla glue” here in the US.

Derekm, what about frame rests in your boxes?  How did you implement them?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on October 09, 2011, 04:02:21 pm
Gregted, I use polyurethane glue to glue my foam nucs together.  The PU glue is most commonly sold under the brand name “gorilla glue” here in the US.

Derekm, what about frame rests in your boxes?  How did you implement them?

I used aluminium angle polyester or epoxied in.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 06, 2012, 07:20:00 pm
I haven’t updated the success or failure of my super foam nucs since October, so I’ll report that they’re all still alive; Boyle, Newton, and Ohm. 

We have had a very mild winter so far though so all that insulation hasn’t really gotten put to the test yet.  We’ve only had a couple of nights in the single digits (Fahrenheit that is).  We’ve had plenty of days below 32F/0C, but no bitter cold.  That said, it’s only been warm enough 2 or 3 times since November for the bees to really get out and fly.  Today was one of those days.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/FoamNucJan6th2012.jpg)

I will report that I have been finding condensation under my foam tops.  Hence the top cover must be below the dew point of bee’s breath.  I am using a top vent to vent moisture from the nucs but at the same time it’s probably cooling down the underside of the foam and promoting some condensation. Not sure how to fix that or even if it is a big problem or not.  The bees are not consuming very many stores and hence are not generating as much H2O as they might in a colder wood nuc.  For now, I’m just leaving them be; they seem to be doing fine. 
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 10, 2012, 03:47:42 pm
An issue with insulation particularly top vented is the higher heat retention couldmean dehydration of the bees in winter.

Warmer air holds more water and generates a stronger convection current. This is conjecture but water replenishment is after confinement in winter is a priority for bees as observed by all.

Some research i've shows a preference by bees for 75% RH.

If this conjecture is correct then insulation and ventilation to reduce moisture may need additonal care  not to go too far with the ventilation.  IMHO the the key thing needs to be keeping the environment inside the temperature humidity control space of the bees, Hence my concern to key the bees reasonably close to the environment in a typical tree cavity nest, while faciltating pest and detritus removal.

I've also found some research that indicates warmer bees are more effective at removing varoa mites.

lots to experiment an look into with warmer hives for 2012
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: gjd on January 10, 2012, 09:52:30 pm
Derekm, can you describe the information you have about a preference for 75% RH?  I'm a newcomer to beekeeping and  have found nothing about humidity in natural hives or preferences.  It seems like a glaring hole in practical beekeeping knowledge, and I'd like to learn more.   Thanks.
Greg
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 10, 2012, 10:25:38 pm
Good points Derekm.  It got up to 50F/10C today, very warm for us.  The bees were out flying again, but not as much as during that 55F/13C thaw last week.  I peeked in the nucs and hives today.  Lots of condensation on the underside of my nuc foam tops.  I used a squeegee to remove the condensation.  Then wiped them dry with paper towels.  Probably 1 to 3 bottle caps worth of condensation.

Despite this condensation issue, the bees are doing well and I kind of prefer a bottom entrance on a nuc since it makes them just a shade easier to inspect IMO.  I’m still chicken to block off my top vents even though they might be contributing to the condensation under the top cover.  Instead I may put a paper towel over my inner cover/screen to catch any condensation that might drip from the top foam cover.  As long as the cold water doesn’t drip on the bees, I’m not too worried about it.  We’re expecting some near normal winter weather next week.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 11, 2012, 07:04:14 am
 I have two sheets of polycarbonate in an ecke(shim?) to feed the bees fondant and so I can occasionally (once a fortnight)  look in and not get them cold. The bottom sheet has 4  holes near the edges to let the bees in. Any condensation (never had any) cant fall on the bees on te comb.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 11, 2012, 11:26:44 am
Derekm, can you describe the information you have about a preference for 75% RH?  I'm a newcomer to beekeeping and  have found nothing about humidity in natural hives or preferences.  It seems like a glaring hole in practical beekeeping knowledge, and I'd like to learn more.   Thanks.
Greg


Be careful you might end up with a collection of scientific papers
its in this abstract

Derek

Hygropreference and brood care in the honeybee (Apis mellifera).
Michael B Ellis, Sue W Nicolson, Robin M Crewe and Vincent Dietemann J Insect Physiol 54(12):1516-21 (2008) PMID 18822293
Terrestrial organisms need to limit evaporation from their bodies in order to maintain a homeostatic water balance. Owing to a large surface to volume ratio, arthropods are particularly susceptible to desiccation and have evolved behavioural and physiological mechanisms to conserve water. In social insects, water balance is also affected by the interactions between nestmates and by the architecture of the nest. For honeybees, humidity is particularly important for the brood because it affects the hatching success of eggs and because, unlike ants, honeybees cannot relocate their brood to parts of the nest with more favourable humidity. To advance the understanding of the water economy in honeybee nests, we investigated whether workers exhibit a hygropreference when exposed to a gradient of 24-90% relative humidity (RH) and whether the expression of this preference and their behaviour is affected by the presence of brood. The results show that young honeybee workers in the absence of brood exhibit a weak hygropreference for approximately 75% RH. When brood is present the expression of this preference is further weakened, suggesting that workers tend to the brood by distributing evenly in the gradient. In addition, fanning behaviour is shown to be triggered by an increase in humidity above the preferred level but not by a decrease. Our results suggest that humidity in honeybee colonies is actively controlled by workers.

Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 23, 2012, 01:30:54 pm
Got up to 43F here today so I finally got the nerve to open the foam nucs and take a peak.....I am pretty sure they are history.
Being new, I have not seen a winter cluster before, but I assume there should be some movement. All the bees I saw in both were cold and still even when I dug down a few bees into the group.
Lots of stores still from what I could see. Both Nucs were clustered over the frames that had brood in them when I closed it all up in fall but i won't know if they had brood at death till I dig some more.
Time to read up on postmortems....

I believe it is often recommended not to do the clean up till spring when they are "warm and dead"...I imagine this is more true for a full sized hive? I think if I leave things in these foam boxes till it gets warm it will be a moldy mess. Without the bees to ventilate it I think it will stay mighty wet in there.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 23, 2012, 08:21:51 pm
Windfall, I feel your pain……

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Dead%20Out%20Foam%20Nuc%20Jan%202012/DeadOutJan23A.jpg)

I found this today in one of my double decker foam nucs.   That was a 5 frame deep + 5 frame medium nuc with 2” thick foam walls, bottom entrance, and small top vent.  Weighed the dead bees; that’s 2 lbs of bees.   No signs of brood and the bees were still mostly in the bottom box.  The cluster was spanning the gap between the deeps and medium frames.  I got out my magnifying glass to check for varroa; none seen.  Bees all looked healthy, except for being dead.

It looks to me like they got stuck against the front wall of the nuc and they hadn’t packed the sides of the frames full with honey.  My diagnosis is they starved.  I’m a little surprised this many bees in a nuc got too cold to move to more stores (There were lots of stores to their sides and above them.)  2lbs of bees should be able to generate at least 5 watts of heat and in this super insulated nuc, it really shouldn’t have gotten colder than 32F/0C inside the nuc.  We had a few days of bitter cold weather that seemed to do these bees in.  It got down to 0F for a few nights.

As noted before; moisture has been a concern in my foam nucs.  The dead out had a fair amount of mold (white mold) growing on the sides away from the bees.  I’ll copy some photos to my photobucket page later for those wanting to see a bunch of dead bees.  

My other nucs and hives looked fine today.  
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on January 23, 2012, 10:08:33 pm
Bluebee, don't like seeing that in my neck of the woods. I have 10 two story nucs this year, have only lost one so far
I have five pushed together with insulation on top, back, and both ends. I have my upper and lower entrances on the same side. I think it gives me better air travel pulling the moisture out.
We really have not had our normal winter, so they are not really a true test for overwintering.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 24, 2012, 06:18:37 pm
can you tell me the cross sectional area of both the bottom entrance and the top vent - collecting data
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 24, 2012, 09:39:21 pm
Here’s a photo of the deadout nuc with dimensions marked up.  This hive really had a small area for a top vent, maybe too small? 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Dead%20Out%20Foam%20Nuc%20Jan%202012/DeadoutNucdimensions.jpg)

Here’s a photo looking down into the deep body of the nuc as I examined it. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Dead%20Out%20Foam%20Nuc%20Jan%202012/DeadOut5.jpg)

I uploaded a few more photos with dead bees and mold into this photobucket album:
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Dead%20Out%20Foam%20Nuc%20Jan%202012/ (http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Dead%20Out%20Foam%20Nuc%20Jan%202012/)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on January 24, 2012, 10:03:12 pm
BlueBee, looks just like mine did, classic starvation. I made this winters out of stacked 5 frame medium boxes. Have already made next years, and they will be 6 frames per box.
Entrances
bottom 3/8 x 1 1/2
top 3/8 x 1
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 24, 2012, 10:21:29 pm
I will get photos up soon as well.
No mold inside the hives for me. Light frost in the corners. Actually the unvented hive seemed to have less...but minimally so.

IN mine the empty cells under the cluster are nearly completely filled by bees. But there is often honey in the adjacent cell..???

Our temps were a bit colder -14f a few nights. I am wondering about the bouncing of temps we are seeing and if that came into play.

Bluebee, back in the summer I sort of laughed at your foam gaskets knowing you were going to also vent them.....not so much now. The only place I had significant moisture/ice was in the wide joints between foam pieces like bottom board to hive body. I don't know if it wicked in there and froze or was deposited as vapor escaped and cooled.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: tefer2 on January 24, 2012, 10:56:25 pm
BlueBee, I would think that's enough venting. The nucs I had last year were surrounded with styrene and I lost them all . This year I began to think that having a few cracks is a good thing. Will see if they make it.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 25, 2012, 08:24:45 am
Be aware of dehydration rather than starvation in a top vented insulated hive. I'm going to do the numbers on the convection and post the results.

  However, a warmer insulated hive will have higher air flows through a similar top vent than a colder hive . That warmer air will also have a greater water carrying capacity.

I would strongly suggest going for a closed top  with a larger bottom entrance /vent in winter if you are  insulating significantly.
 Bees must have the feed back mechanisms for this as this is tree cavity config.

Dont take my word for it lets do the maths and the experiments
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 25, 2012, 08:38:20 am
Derek, I understand your point, but I think if Bluebee is getting mold that is a pretty strong indicator that dehydration is unlikely, at least for his configuration.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 25, 2012, 09:46:14 am
Here are Pics of the dead nucs:

https://picasaweb.google.com/107355150238360566862/DeadNucs?authkey=Gv1sRgCMTWgtKG19eJ1wE#

They don't show much of the construction...sorry.

I have also posted this in general beekeeping. Let's try to keep any general info/thoughts on what I can learn from this on that thread and comments specifically regarding the foam nucs and any impact they might have had here....
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 25, 2012, 10:10:01 am
Looking at the pics again I should make one comment. The moisture and mold seen on the inner cover on nuc 1 is actually the top of the inner cover. I meant to close off the feeding hole but forgot. Vapor was moving into the space above between the IC and the foam lid and then condensing and dripping down. The hive side was dry, no mold. the vent was on the hive side. It almost acted as a moisture trap.

The feeding hole was at the far end from the cluster while in use.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 25, 2012, 11:45:53 pm
Those are some nice looking hives Windfall  :)

Dehydration was definitely not an issue in my foam nucs.  They were/are very moist!  Plenty of condensation on the foam top cover.  I am currently using a screen inner cover (for easy observation) and that might have aggravated my moisture problem.  If I had used a wood inner cover like Windfall, the condensation on the foam cover would have dripped onto the inner cover as opposed to down into the hive. 

Unfortunately I haven’t gotten around to instrumenting my foam nucs to see what is really going on inside.  Based on my experience with electric heat last winter, I have a suspicion that no matter how much foam you use in the winter, the bees are not going to heat it up above 60F/16C until they start raising brood.  My observation with electric heat is that above about 60F, the bees break winter cluster and stop making heat.

I also wonder a little rather this sizable amount of bees in a fairly compact and fairly air tight hive might have suffocated?  I really think I should have used a bigger top vent at the expense of heat loss.   One other thing to report; there was ICE at the top of the hive when I opened it on a relatively mild day of about 46F/8C.  Insulation can keep the heat in, or the cold in!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 26, 2012, 09:33:09 am
Cold being trapped in was along the lines I was thinking...I can imagine a scenario with small clusters (like mine) where the temps drop well beyond their ability to partially heat the space...the stores get super cold. Then the cold breaks, but now the insulation is working the other way and those cold stores cool the air inside well below exterior ambient. With a little cluster, maybe it is enough to stop them from being able to shift even the few cells over to reach new feed. Or maybe they just can not warm enough feed quickly to keep up with their consumption. Something like turning a day and a half cold snap into 3-4 days. Without the insulation, the stores would still get cold, but the air in the hive would warm sooner. A larger cluster might have the "troops (heat) in reserve" to overcome this and slide over to new feed.

It is just a thought, a little math might readily support or trash it. And really at my experience level I should be careful about hypothesizing, and focus on collecting data....but I just can't help myself.

Bluebee, when I cleaned them up one of my first thoughts was your electric heaters....I don't like the idea of using them regularly, but it might be nice to have had the option to turn them on those nights it dropped below 0; same as I give the chickens a heat lamp in that weather. Not at all practical at the large scale, but I have the time to baby them and power out there already for the bear fence. If 4-5 nights over the winter of plugging in would have carried these into spring that would have been mighty nice. When you only have a few colonies to begin with the losses sting a bit more. If I lose them all it is going to be battle with my wife to spend a pile of money on some more!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 26, 2012, 05:43:07 pm
dehydration can occur simply if you have condensation where the bees cant drink it 
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 26, 2012, 07:24:40 pm
Derekm, you raise a valid concern about dehydration.  I do know what dehydration is like because I DID see that problem last winter using electric heat.  In fact I was planning to add a humidifier into my hives IF I added electric heat this winter or spring!  I have not added any electric heat this year.  

My foam nucs are very moist, they look nothing like my electric experiments from last winter.  Condensation has dripped down into the nucs.  I have little plastic bowls/feeders sitting on top of my frames that now have water accumulated in them.  There is plenty of water if the bees want a cold drink  :-D

Windfall you raise a valid concern about super insulation potentially acting like an ice box.  Charles Dadant did a lot of experimenting with hives and insulation (chaff back then) at the turn of the century (see his book circa 1920) and concluded that in his location in Central Illinois too much insulation was a negative in the winter.  If you have any sunshine or warm spell, the amount of watts outside the hive available for heating is far higher than the meager few watts the bees can make.  Brother Adam also reported doing experiments with insulation and ended up with negative results.

On the other hand, as Derekm has pointed out before, the bees natural home is often tree cavities with lots of wood insulation.   Of coarse we also have Finski's long experience with foam!  You probably need some good instrumentation to really understand the dynamics going on inside a super insulated hive design.  

Am I going to abandon insulation.  No way!  I’m still experimenting with many ideas.  Maybe my double decker designs need a little tweaking for winter, I’m not sure.  Other than my 1 nuc deadout, my bees have really thrived in foam.  
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Sparky on January 26, 2012, 07:33:30 pm
I have to wonder if the bottom had a way for the water to drain out and some sort of crowned diverter over the frames to send the condensate to the outer sides and more vented air space over the crown if it would keep them from getting wet and let them still get to the moisture if they wanted it.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 27, 2012, 09:43:06 am
I get your point about dehydration Derek. That was my one objection to bluebee's screened tops back in fall, and the reason I meant to cover up that hole.
For Bluebee, that did not seem to prove an issue. It may have been part of my problem. I don't know if the small amount of condensation available inside my nucs was present before they tanked. The way they were packed together at the end they would not have been able to reach it in the far corners even if it was.

Do we know what sort of signs a water stressed/starved colony exhibit?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 27, 2012, 12:50:16 pm
...
It is just a thought, a little math might readily support or trash it. And really at my experience level I should be careful about hypothesizing, and focus on collecting data....but I just can't help myself.
...
Done the maths ... alas it trashes it.  :-\   The maths also show tar paper wraps are a net thermal loss.

On dehydration  - both of my insulated hives seem tank up with water on every winters day they can...
Thus one may deduce they are short on water . (noted by observers for most hive types). And this is without top ventilation.

 Perhaps we should really look at the whole  problem of condensation as also being one of the colony losing water it needs  and it  not just being a problem of  "damp".

So rather than ventilating the moisture away, a  method of collecting the moisture in a place that will not chill the bees but so that  bees can elect to drink or not?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 27, 2012, 01:55:26 pm
Derek you did the math for your hive or mine? Under what conditions?

Obviously size of cluster, size of space, and temperature differentials over time are the primary variables...along with degree of insualtion and air exchange rates. The more I consider it the more I think the simple math is not so simple. And I am begging to think there may be a tipping point among these variables when the insulation is doing a disservice to the bees.
But to be honest, I have not even made a stab at crunching the numbers....maybe if I get bored enough this winter!

I am grateful for your interest and input, but please remember we are dealing with very different climates you and I. I routinely see many nights and sometimes days at a time to -10F, several to -20, and a couple down close to -25 every year.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 27, 2012, 05:58:36 pm
Derekm is going to love this report….

It’s just a shade above freezing here today (36F/2C) and there is snow on the ground.  This is snow fest weekend in Frakenmuth, MI.  The point is, we’re in mid winter right now even though it is not as cold as normal.

So I go out to check on my bees today.  In light of my double decker nuc deadout last week I was concerned about my other foam nucs.  Was there some sort of design flaw?  I took my IR thermometer with me to see what the hive temps are reading.  I crack open my other double decker nuc and the bees are super active.  The thermometer reads a WHOPPING 87F (30C) in the hive!!!!  I was utterly shocked. 

I have to surmise that this double decker has started raising some brood.   With 2” (50mm) foam insulation, the heat they would make to keep the brood at 95F/35C would indeed warm such an insulated box up in a hurry.  These bees will certainly not freeze at this point, but now I’m libel to have some new problems to deal with……   So now what Derekm :?

The one big difference between this double decker and the one that died last week was the top venting.  This one did NOT have a “lip” on the cover that restricts air flow out the top and the vent was about 2x the cross sectional area as on the dead out nuc (see photo in earlier post).  I still wonder rather asphyxiation is what caused my deadout.

My other foam nucs and hives were more in less in winter slumber and looked healthy.     
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 27, 2012, 06:08:44 pm
someone wrote bees are masters at HVAC

they have very good coping mechanisms ... you do the calcs for two rates of bee heat output ( forgot the numbers) and 3 significant temps
34c, 18c and 10c.

The ambient temp where the lowest bee input gives 34 c is the threshold bees have to cool or you top ventilate.
you should design that the insulation allows 18c with the high bee output at the coldest winter temps and prevents 10c with bees on high output

My hive irc is 20c and -15c
Arrange a draft free 20 cm sq bottom entrance so they have enough air to do their HVAC thang
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on January 28, 2012, 01:34:40 pm
intresting information guys.
Between a few beekeepers here we have three differant venting options.

Derekm uses a bottom vent,BlueBee uses a top vent and I use a hybrid center vent.

I call it a hybrid center vent because the vent in my hive is actually at the top of the hive but the air is exhausted into a space [1.5"inches]
that is between my insulated cover and the hive. The air must than travel down to a point about midway between the upper and lower deeps
to another vent were it can then exit the insulated cover. This is my second winter running this system. so far so good but this winter has been a lot warmer than normal here in Minnesota. I have two full size hives and one nuc I am trying to winter.

We will see what happens.

John
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on January 28, 2012, 02:07:22 pm
intresting information guys.
Between a few beekeepers here we have three differant venting options.

Derekm uses a bottom vent,BlueBee uses a top vent and I use a hybrid center vent.

I call it a hybrid center vent because the vent in my hive is actually at the top of the hive but the air is exhausted into a space [1.5"inches]
that is between my insulated cover and the hive. The air must than travel down to a point about midway between the upper and lower deeps
to another vent were it can then exit the insulated cover. This is my second winter running this system. so far so good but this winter has been a lot warmer than normal here in Minnesota. I have two full size hives and one nuc I am trying to winter.

We will see what happens.

John

my PIR hive has has 30sq cm (300mm long 10mm high 75mm deep 45 deg slope) entrance blocked down to 20 sq cm for winter  AND 12 floor slots 350mm long  by 3mm wide 50mm deep thats about 5 times the  bluebees total area
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 31, 2012, 05:31:43 pm
Photo update from my newest foam nuc design.  These are single story 8 frame deep nucs.  Despite some condensation issues in this design, the bees are still doing well.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/NucJan31.jpg)

Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on January 31, 2012, 05:59:37 pm
I saw Windfalls Ice Box effect in action again today. 

Our day temps have been below freezing for a week or two now, but today it got up to 50F.  I went out to check on my super insulated bees and found a lot of bees out pooping all over, including on me.  The hives with top entrances were very active while most of the hives with bottom entrances (and small top vents) were virtually dormant.  Those appear to be experiencing an ice box effect.  They were perfectly alive, just mostly in cluster.

Interestingly it appears to me that the bees can easily heat up a super insulated hive if they want; be it a top entrance or a bottom entrance design.  When enough bees decide to get active (for whatever reason) they can heat these super insulated hives up to 87F/30C in a hurry (even when it’s 32F/0C outside).  So maybe the ice box effect I see with the bottom entrance hives has more to do with those bees deciding not to get active when the top entrance bees do? 

Speculating here; but maybe the bees in a top entrance hive detect the outside weather (and sunlight) quicker than their sisters in a bottom entrance hive.  The bees move up in the winter and hence they are more likely to be around a top entrance than a bottom entrance.  Maybe the top entrance bees see good flying weather sooner, communicates that with the cluster, and wake them up.  Once the cluster decides to become active, they can easily heat up a super insulated hive and start flying all around.

(This hypothesis probably wouldn’t have applied to Windfall’s bees since he just didn’t have enough bees to make enough heat over overcome the heat capacity of the cold slabs of honey).

My jury is still out on top vs bottom entrances for my super insulated experiments, but so far I have seen nothing but good news from my top entrance designs. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Hives/Jan31TopVsBottom.jpg)
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on January 31, 2012, 09:04:14 pm
I've notice the same issue with my hive/insulation design. It seams that outside temperatures need to rise to 50 degrees or so before the bees will fly.

Seems like they can't tell it's warm outside.

John
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on January 31, 2012, 09:49:29 pm
Very interesting.
Bluebee,
Did you pull temps on any of the large hives or just observe them? It would also be very curious to know the cluster position in the different hives, and if the entrance location has an effect.
Thanks for the updates.

SMN, My nucs didn't last long enough to give much data. But in the fall, they were consistently more active at lower temps than the adjacent hives. or I should say they showed comparable activity with 4-5 frames that 16 frames were showing in the same weather. Do you see the temp lag all year or winter/spring only?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on February 01, 2012, 03:30:42 pm
the flying might be to do withthe height of the entrance and its direction more than its position in the hive.
The observations on my bottom entrance hives is it is the amount of UV light they see.(have done experiments with a mirror and a north facing hive)  Try  southfacing with a bit of elevation. Is there an allergy inthe US for hive stands taller than a fag packet?

btw -3c outside here and 16C at floor 20C at top, sunny days
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 01, 2012, 04:13:16 pm
LOL, I have no idea what a fag packet is, but I’m assuming it’s not very tall :-D

Most people here seem to use hive stands.  It is the recommend practice to keep the skunks from bothering the bees.  I’m a bit of a contrarian though.  Maybe that’s why I’m using super insulated hives when everybody else here uses wood.

In the photo above you can see the sun has gone past noon and shaded the entrances on the hives shown.  So under equal conditions, my tops were flying and my bottoms were not :?  The hives in the photo are facing east, I have other hives facing west and south.  I agree with your hypothesis about UV.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: buzzbee on February 01, 2012, 05:01:21 pm
Fag packet = cigarette box.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 01, 2012, 05:06:22 pm
Thanks Buzz, learn something new every day around here.

Windfall, I didn’t measure temps yesterday; too many bees in the air.  Today it’s cloudy (as normal here in the winter) and 39F/3.8C (+10F above normal).  Here is what I found.

My bottom entrance hive temps are all over the map.  Some are 47F/8C at the entrance while others are 75F/24C at the entrance.  The bottom entrance hives that were dormant yesterday are more active today where as the top entrance hives are properly in phase with the environment.  There seems to be a much longer thermal time constant in the bottom entrance super insulated hives.  That is not necessarily a good thing IMO.  It’s 10F colder today and NOT a good day for a bee to be outside.

The top entrance hives are reading 65F to 75F/24C at the top entrance but the bees seem (and sound) calm.  Some of the bottom entrance super insulated hives are concerning me because they sound agitated for some reason.

I found this alarming amount of mold growth on the side of PV=nRT today!  Unfortunately this photo doesn’t do it justice.  There is a nasty amount of white mold in this nuc.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Eight%20Frame%20Foam%20Nucs/MoldyHive.jpg)

Derekm, it sounds like our super insulated hives are experiencing similar temperatures.  What about condensation over there?  I fear it’s becoming a big issue in my nuc design.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on February 01, 2012, 06:10:21 pm
Bluebee, are you only seeing white mold? No blue or blackish (mildew)??
Is it present only on the luan panels? What about the solid wood ends or the edges of your frame top bars?

I ask because I often see veneers with white rot fungi in luan. If that were present at construction it would run rampant with a high humidity environment...would not require condensation. The only mold I saw in mine was some black mildew and a bit of early blue stain (it can be precursor to several varieties of fungi) The types of fungus you get can actually tell you a bit about the conditions in terms of temps and humidity as well as substrate issues...they all have their own niche.

I have become more familiar with them than I care to repairing old rotten boats, but it can help diagnose the problems. Don't know how much it will translate here though.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 01, 2012, 06:45:06 pm
Windfall, I think you hit the nail on the head.  The white mold/fungi is only attacking the luaun.  All the solid wood parts look fine; no molds or fungi’s of any color I could see.  I had a suspicion that the luaun might be a good food source for mold/fungi and this looks like confirmation now. 

Do you have any good remedies to preventing these things from attacking luaun?  Paint?  Polyurethane?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on February 01, 2012, 08:48:16 pm
Luan is generally rot susceptible. More likely than new rot attacking it, is that rot which was in the tree got incorporated into the ply and is just taking off once conditions got damp.
Sorry, but shy of aggressive fungicides (wouldn't use them in the hive) or keeping it below 16-18%MC it is going to do that.

I know the stuff is cheap and easy to use, but I only use it for patterns anymore..and rarely even that. It is prone to delaminating, it rots superfast, is notorious for off-gassing excessive formaldehyde (poor oversees gluing quality control)...and it comes from some pretty awful land use practices.

You may want to consider using 1/8" or 1/4" temperd masonite. It isn't too spendy, about the same as luan; glues and machines well, is pretty water resistant/proof (some folks build division feeders from it), and bonded by heat and pressure rather than glue (no offgassing).

I was going to use it on mine but had some 1/4" cedar planking lying around and went that route instead.....I like real wood and scrap is endless for me.

None of this helps your present hives I know.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on February 01, 2012, 10:27:35 pm
windfall

The temperature in my hives only seems to lag in the winter months.

John
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 01, 2012, 11:12:17 pm
Thanks for the help Windfall.  I always learn more from failure than success…..so I guess I did some learning today :evil:  The only real purpose for the luan in my design was to keep the bees from chewing the foam.  I would rather use a plastic product like coroplast but I didn’t find a good way to glue it to foam.  I think the coroplast is polyethylene which is notoriously difficult to glue.  

I don’t know a whole lot about trees, but did have a willow removed due to fungus so I learned a little about the stuff then.  I suspect you’re right, spores from the junk wood used to make the luan being the culprit.

This is all good to know for the future, but in the mean time I have been experimenting with my vaccum press and have made up 3 more jumbo brood bodies…..using luan.  Arrrrrggggggg!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:  Given the fact I don’t want to scrap all that work, what might I try to salvage these new jumbo bodies?

Assuming fungus needs food, water, and oxygen to grow, can I effectively limit any of those?  The cellulose, no.  However can I block water and O2 via polyurethane or resin?  The polystyrene is closed cell so it should prevent water and O2 from one side.  Do I have a realistic chance of blocking water and O2 from the other side with polyurethane?
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2012, 01:57:42 am
I’ve been thinking about this some more…..the masonite sounds good.  Is that stuff I call hardboard at Home Depot/Lowes?  A rather dense flimsy dark brown material, 4x8 sheets?  I didn’t go with that originally because of the flimsy nature of it, but that really isn’t an issue if you use 1.5” foam. 

Secondly, what is the theory why masonite would be more immune to fungus/mold than luan?  They’re both still cellulose material, right.  Is it because the heat and pressure has compressed the wood fibers of the masonite to the point there isn’t any air space left in them for organisms to take root?  Heat probably also bakes any spores. 

Finally how does masonite hold up to humid conditions like in a bee hive?  If this is the stuff I’m thinking of, it seems like it gets a little fuzzy on the surface over time doesn’t it?  Would it benefit from some sort of coating?  (paint, poly, etc).
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on February 02, 2012, 09:47:19 am
Hardboard is a common name, with the little holes folks know it as pegboard. Masonite is a name brand, I don't know how many different manufacturers produce it or if they are all equal...I should be a little careful recommending it as I have not used it extensively myself.
Kirk Webster and Michael Palmer have been making division feeders with the stuff for years. I got a few of Kirk's old ones in the nucs I bought this spring, and they looked and continue to hold up well. So it does have a proven record in hive use. I believe all the common adhesives work on it but I do NOT know that.

Spores are always present everywhere. The conditions required for fungus to become established are a bit different (more specific) than the conditions required for it to grow and thrive once established.
So if you accidentally use a piece of wood that already has fungus growing in it, even if presently dormant, it doesn't take much for things to go south quickly.
I doubt you will see the super rapid degradation in all your luan work that you did in those nucs.....you got a bad sheet, all the pieces from that sheet will be iffy. A better, uninfected sheet will probably hold up longer....

Broadly speaking rot resistance comes in 2 forms: chemical and density. Many species of timber have natural rot resistance from extractives(chemicals) they deposit into the wood as they grow:Cedar, black locust, osage orange....
Density comes into play with regard to your points about O2 and water. Simply put water and o2 migrate more slowly in dense media and this slows down the rate of fungal growth.

Luan is a species that has no inherent rot resistance chemically and is extremely low-density...so it gets the double whammy
I really can not speak to the long term rot resistance of the masonite...I wouldn't expect much, probably on par with Pine, But it is relatively dense and absorbs water very slowly. And as you mention it has been heat treated which at least starts it with a "clean slate".

Failures are a drag but at least we can learn. I wish I had mentioned my reservations on luan to you this past summer, but it seemed presumptuous since you had been making these for awhile and I was "new to the scene".
I really can't think of a good "fix". Most of the applied fungicides are also pretty toxic to insects. You might try to "salt" the surface with strong saline solutions...but I don't know how the bees would like it, nor how effective it would be (it is usually done with prolonged immersion in seawater). Surface films (paint ect) won't stop rot, but they can help keep it from getting started, or at least slow the "Seeding" by spores. Ultimately good air circulation is necessary to keep Moisture content down unless the material is inherently rot resistant.

Hope this helps. It is a bit of over simplification but probably still more than you wanted to know!


Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on February 02, 2012, 12:13:45 pm
no condensation that the bees havent drunk ...
 another day with -4C outside and 16C at the floor 20C at the top...
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2012, 03:41:29 pm
Quote
I wish I had mentioned my reservations on luan to you this past summer
Then I might not have learned a number of things about wood, fungi, and just how wet my current design is.  Learning can be painful, but in the end it is good.

I ran nucs last winter with luan cores too.  I didn’t see this kind of fungi growth.  My understanding is Fungi require a much wetter environment than mold which suggest to me something needs to be altered in my current design to remove moisture better.  Solid wood sides or plywood might avoid the fungi issue, but that doesn’t really solve the moisture problem.

I have done some googling of masonite and it looks like it has had some mold issues over the years too (masonite siding and lawsuits) when not properly protected from the elements.  Since we know making these foam hives is rather labor intensive as it is, I think I will continue experimenting with non organic materials for the inner surfaces.

Derekm, are you giving your super insulated bees any extra winter food/sugar?  I wonder how they're doing on stores.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on February 02, 2012, 04:12:11 pm
not using much -- i have given them some  to see how much they need and the answer is not a lot, Alwaysfoam has hardly consumed a kilo of sugar all winter.  The scales show it as well... the predicted amount from heat loss figures is around 15gm to 35gms/day of sucrose or sucrose equivalent.
dependent on ambient temp...
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2012, 08:48:00 pm
Now this is interesting.  Take a look at what I found inside Ohm today!

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Super%20Insulated%20Nuc%20Mold%20Feb%202012/Ohm1.jpg)

Ohm is the 3rd super insulated 8 frame nuc I built last fall.  It sat right next to Newton all winter but Ohm never had ANY bees in it.  Newton has bees.  My plan was to have two identical foam hives next to each other so I could accurately measure the wattage the bees generated in one hive by recreating the temperatures in another with an electrical heat source.  Watts = Volts x Current.  So my plan was to put a heater in Ohm and ramp up that electrical heater until the temps in Ohm (beeless) matched those in Newton (bee-full).  At that point electrical watts in Ohm = bee watts in Newton.  The thing is I never found time to run that experiment so bee-less Ohm just sat out in the elements all winter right next to bee-full Newton.  

My plan today was to pull Ohm into the garage and polyurethane its pristine luan walls (or so I expected) and move my bees from fungus attacked Boyle into a poly sealed Ohm.  I had ASSUMED Ohm would be in pristine shape just sitting out there in the cold with no bees making moisture in it.  I was wrong.  Wow, was I ever wrong.  

If you want to see photos of the United Nations of Mold inside a bee-less super insulated nuc, I uploaded some photos to a photobucket album.  The mold attacked everything:
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Super%20Insulated%20Nuc%20Mold%20Feb%202012/ (http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Super%20Insulated%20Nuc%20Mold%20Feb%202012/)

Clearly the bees have been doing a better job ventilating these super insulated nucs than I gave them credit for.  The nucs with bees are MUCH less moldy than the nuc that did not have bees.  The other interesting thing I found in the bee-less nuc was a slab of ice (10mm thick) on the floor of the hive!  We’ve been above freezing here for about 3 days now.  Literally an ice box if you don’t have enough bees making heat!  

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Super%20Insulated%20Nuc%20Mold%20Feb%202012/Ohm8.jpg)

Clearly something unexpected is going on here.  Going to have to investigate more.

BTW… nucs with bees are reading 70F to 80F/26C today.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: windfall on February 02, 2012, 09:45:48 pm
That is quite a bit of water. I suppose multiple condensation cycles could generate it but without a thermal mass inside to act as a condensor I doubt it. Perhaps once you get a bit of ice slab in the bottom it acts as such and self magnifies. With the yo-yo temps and humidity this year I could be convinced.

How confident are you that rain water/snowmelt is not running off the roof and then wicking in the hive body joints? Do you have some sort of drip edge or groove on the lids to keep run off off the hive body walls? Over hang alone isn't enough without significant pitch. Drops will run right around and back under.

On my nucs I saw in the fall that I was getting that effect right away (my tops were flush to sides). I would open them after rain and have water in the joint and some damp down the insides. So I cut some 1/2" ply 2" larger in all directions for a rain lid and ran a kerf all the way around the bottom 1/8" deep 1/4" in from edge to force dripping clear of the hive body...seemed to fix it.

If that is your problem it is easy to fix. But you are in your hives a lot it seems, I would think you would have noticed it.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2012, 10:20:08 pm
Windfall, you seem very knowledgeable of construction!  I think you hit the nail on the head again; at least for some of the water.  I was out investigating some of my other bee-less nucs this evening.  They are all nice and dry except for one; had a little mold.  Something is different in my new design.   

My 8 frame foam nucs just use a flat piece of foam for a cover.  It over hangs, but not by much, about an inch.  There is NO drip edge.  There is a foam gasket between the top cover and the hive to keep cold air out.  I figured that might also keep out the water, but now I think it wasn't as water tight as I hoped.  I do think this is a problem area.

I have observed that if I pour water on my flat foam tops, it can run back 3 or 4 inches on the underside.  So I do think it would be wise to install a drip edge like you suggest.  My original foam nuc tops DID have a lip on them that in retrospect also acted like a drip edge.  My dead out last week DID have a 3.5” deep lip the extended below the top of the hive body.   It was moist too, but had nothing like this amount of mold.  I stopped adding the lip because it was more work than simply throwing a flat slab of foam on top.  Sometimes simpler isn't better :(

I will be adding a drip edge to the 8 frame nucs before we get more rain.  Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 02, 2012, 10:33:17 pm
There is a foam gasket between the top cover and the hive to keep cold air out.  I figured that might also keep out the water

Ooooops, I had a Rick Perry moment.  I did NOT use that foam gasket on the 8 frame nucs after all.  I used it on my 5 frame extra deep nucs.  The 5 frame extra deep nucs that also sat out all winter are bone dry, whereas my 8 frame deep nucs are soaked.  I think this is the source of most of my water problems!   
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: Sparky on February 02, 2012, 10:41:30 pm
Another product you may want to check out is the tileboard that Lowes and Home Depot sell. It is a compressed masonite that has a smooth white finish on one side that could be used to keep the bees from chewing where you use the luan.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on February 03, 2012, 11:30:54 am
-7c outside 13 C at the floor 22c at the top
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: CapnChkn on February 04, 2012, 01:09:23 pm
BlueBee, this may be out of the blue, but have you considered cutting a veneer?  It's something you can do with a hand-rip saw.  I've been using it to try and cut thin pieces of wood for little parts, and it works well enough, though I need to work on my technique.

I cobbled a feeder from it and decided it was easier and simpler to use the ply for the same project.  This looks like a way to shave a few 1/4" plates off the Cedar your "neighbor down the way" cut and left by the road to get picked up by the organic wastes people.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: JRH on February 07, 2012, 05:22:54 pm
Titebond II glues coroplast to styrofoam with no problems at all.
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: BlueBee on February 07, 2012, 06:22:34 pm
Thanks for the tip Jeff.  I never thought of using Titebond II!  I guess I was thinking too hard on this problem.

Sparky and CapnChkn, thanks for your ideas too.  I’ll check them out the next time I’m at HD/Lowes.

More typical weather has returned to my bee yard so I popped the tops off my over active nucs to see what they are doing today.   They have screened inner covers so I can see what’s going on inside.  It’s cold cloudy and 29F/-1C today.  Feels like winter again.  The bees are back in cluster and the nuc temps have dropped from 80F to about 57F. 

It seems like once the bees go back into cluster, they don’t make as many watts of heat as when they’re riled up.  That’s probably good for extending stores, as long as they have enough food within their cluster!
Title: Re: Bluebees Styrofoam Nucs
Post by: derekm on February 08, 2012, 09:54:20 am
-2c outside 16C at the floor 22c at the top