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Offline Flygirl

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Suffocation ?
« on: January 18, 2008, 08:10:36 pm »
I just checked my hives & it looks like the bees have suffocated?  The front door got covered over with snow & the top had a lot snow that blanketed the top.  I've been trying to keep the entrances open but when I peeked inside today all the bee bodies were at the top of the frames. 

Is it possible they suffocated?  They had food in the frames & a feeder on top.  I feel so bad ~

What should I do now?  Leave it until later / warmer weather & then clean it out or clean it out now?  It would give me time to fix & paint the boxes, etc.

Ok ~  let me know your thoughts...I'm off to plan a funeral :(   FG
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Offline super dave

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 09:27:58 pm »
wait till a 50 degree day and then you'll know--don't act to quickly-- be patient young pad-a-one
lets throw it in the air and see which  way it splatters

Offline LocustHoney

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2008, 09:35:33 pm »
I want to take a shot and say they froze. There wasn't any air flowing so condensation formed above and fell down on the bees and froze the little ladies.?????? :?

Offline tig

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 09:38:04 pm »
i'm sorry to hear about your loss.  you mean ALL the bees were dead???  maybe you still have some alive with the queen.

Offline Sean Kelly

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2008, 08:24:21 am »
Are they all dead?  Can you hear anything when you put a ear up to the side of the hive and knock on it?  Cindi had a great idea in another post.  Find a old used stethascope and use that to listen for sounds.  Works awesome!  I thought one of my hives died too until it warmed up to 50 degrees and I saw bees coming and going, doing some house cleaning!

Good luck!

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2008, 11:34:31 am »
Doubtful but possible that they suffocated.  Another reason for a top entrance.
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Offline Trot

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2008, 12:47:26 pm »
I told this story many times, so here it goes:

Many years ago I worked for one season with a 'big outfit'. (Just to see what is all about, before going on my own?)
As you know, in a professional outfit, time is money?!  So, on this day we were checking, hefting the hives and feeding those which needed it.
When I was done with my row, I went over where the others were finishing off and to my amazement I saw the guys brushing bees of combs into the grass behind the hives.  
I immediately initiated a heated debate - how this was wrong!  To prove my point, I took a few hand-fulls of those "dead" bees and put them on the sun. Within minutes they began moving about and in short time some were even in the air. . . .

The owner stared, open eyed, saying that they always cleaned out the dead-outs, it saved them time when packages arrived....

So, the bee is not dead until it is laying on the bottom board or in front of the hive! (They are usually dry and break up at a touch)
Bees in cold regions, even those in warmer places - but get hit occasionaly with subzero temps, are quite "dead looking!?"  If you throw them out, (clean the hive) they are than dead for sure!

One never opens up a hive in winter unless there is a good reason to do so. Even listening to them is pointless, cause it is nothing one can do.
The only thing of benefit, is that occasionaly one might clean the lower entrance of dead bees and/or snow.  Knocking on side of the hives is a BAD thing to do - cause the bees will get agitated and a lot of them will leave the cluster and attempt to investigate/defend the hive!  
Those bees are lost! They very seldom make it back to the cluster.  They don't die right away?  The cold fast overcomes them and they go dormant. After a few days, in such dormant state, they will be eventually dead.  But not from cold - but from starvation!
Cause they are not fed, like they are when on a cluster. Unless there is a warm sunny day and hive is hopefully in the full sun, perhaps wrapped in something black, (for solar absorption/solar gain) the bees will than come alive and make it back home.

One has to remember that bees DO NOT HEAT THE HIVE!!!  (Even though some of you on this thread believe that they do. Had that argument once or twice before and I am of no mind to salt some-body's brains....)  
I only care for the bees.... What the beekeepers think, believe or want to believe, is entirely their business.

So, please, DO NOT disturb them and above all DO NOT clean out those which appear dead to you.

I don't even visit mine in winter, cause even walking by them on my driveway disturbs them and they come to the top hole to see what is going on?  

Make sure that they have some food!  This is checked with a scale, sort of a "fish-scale" or heft them by hand.  One can pour a bag of dry sugar on top of the frames or on inner cover for insurance, if not sure.  Opening hives is usually detrimental to bees in cold climates. (one lets out all the heat from the cluster and if cold nights follow, the bees are goners!)
It is scientifically proven that every disturbance of winter cluster, it takes on average 3 days for them to return to normal state. . . . .
(Disturbance: loud noise, knocking, scraping and cleaning snow, rearranging rocks/bricks on the cover, birds scratching for dead bees, mice, etc, etc...)

So, my dear, up in Alaska, let them be....  There will be plenty of time to clean them out if they are really dead.

To those who doubt what I just said - go out and pick a bee or two, up from the snow and cup them in the hand, for few minutes. Blow a bit of a warm breath on the poor things? Or better yet, take them in the house - see by your own eyes - no need to believe or heed my words. . . . .

 

Offline Jerrymac

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2008, 12:53:19 pm »
This isn't about cold but along the same lines. I have pulled lifeless bees out of the swimming pool, sat them in the sun and about five minutes or so they fly off.
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Offline Frantz

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2008, 12:56:06 pm »
Trot,
Wow! Interesting stuff. There was a lot of new things in there that I had never heard of. I am new to this so thanks for the heads up on stuff. You are right, we all take the opinions of others and make up our own minds anyway....
Thanks though
F
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Offline LocustHoney

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2008, 01:17:10 pm »
I am a little confused....Trot said.....One has to remember that bees DO NOT HEAT THE HIVE!!! ------Opening hives is usually detrimental to bees in cold climates. (one lets out all the heat from the cluster and if cold nights follow, the bees are goners!)......maybe I am just not understanding your explanation.

Offline eddiedlzn

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2008, 01:25:07 pm »
Yeah last year was my first got my package in early april and we had a bad cold snap. I checked the hive and I thought they were all dead. I took a frame in the house to show my girlfriend They were all dug in to the comb and about 5 minutes later they started coming back to life.  I took the box they came in out to the hive put them all in it took it back in the house and most of them came back to life. I rehived them a few days later when it warmed up and they were ok. I thought that it was pretty amazing. they appeared to be dead. I was wondering if they would have died if I did not take them back in the house. I thought I read that the bees kept the hive at 92 degrees or somewhere around there. Im hopeing this april will be warmer. It is freezing here in illinois. I hope they make it through this winter. I am planning on setting up 5 more this year. My family really enjoys eating are own honey. It is such a great hobby but can be stressful at times. I never thought I would worry about bugs. pretty funny, good luck everyone

Offline Flygirl

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2008, 04:29:51 pm »
WOW !  THANKS to everyone for all the great information.  This was very interesting to me.

They very well might just be frozen & not dead...they look perfect but just "frozen" in place.  There was some condensation inside on the boxes & frames so it could be condensation too.

Good advice to just leave them bee...(hee, hee) & check on them when it warms up.  It's supposed to be in the 30's today & very sunny.  They are in a warm spot facing the south & west so with the sun  on the boxes it could get pretty warm out there.

My mentor has four hives that are a buzzing ~  on a sunny day she's seen bees flying around.

Hopefully the warmth will rescurrect them.  Thanks again for all the insight!  FG
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Offline JP

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2008, 06:44:35 pm »
I will venture a guess that Trot is talking about the hive cluster and not the hive body. Which makes sense to me. One thing I know that aggravates bees more than anything are vibrations, tapping against the wall of a hive is something bees don't like and it makes sense to me that if the hive is tapped on and they start to buzz, this could be detrimental to bees that are putting their energies to keeping warm, specifically in very cold temps. But then again, I barely remember what snow looks like.

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Offline Trot

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 08:10:41 pm »
LocustHoney,

Confusing... Perhaps?
  

When one checks the top entrance, one feels the heat escaping, right?  
Well, bees usually successfully survive winters by consuming honey and collectivly producing some heat.
All this is done by them forming a cluster in a form of elongated ball.  This cluster varies in size/density according to the outside temperature. Moderate weather, cluster is in all parts of the box. Colder it gets, smaller/denser the cluster becomes. Roughly speaking. . . .
The center of the cluster will be around 85 to 92 degrees - (upper limit of 92 to 95 is reached, when there is some brood - many people mistakenly assume that the whole hive is at that temp? IT IS NOT!)
This heat escapes slowly from the top of cluster and accumulates under the inner cover. There we now have all the vapour from burned food and heat.  Also gases from bee-breath. Also "outgassing" from various man-made parts of the hive accumulate there.
When this vapour gets in contact with cold surface it there condenses and forms watter droplets. If we have no upper entrance, this than either freezes and forms ice - this process is than even faster forming - or it escapes out through the upper entrance - if luckily we have one.  
When weather outside gets a bit warmer, this "inside" ice begins to melt and usually drips on the bees.
This is what kills your bees!
They can not handle water/moisture on themselves!  Such wet bees are lost, cause, no amount of eaten honey/burned energy  can produce enough heat to dry/save those bees!
(They are cold-blooded and need sun/heat!)

(That is why we were told, or we read somewhere, that when preparing for winter - we should place under the back of the hive, a wedge, a piece of wood, to tilt the hive forward. This will hopefully cause this water to flow to the front and out!?  Or perhaps, down the front wall and out the bottom entrance?)

If one measures the temperature of the interior of hive, one inch away from the cluster, on the sides, any side - this temperature will be, most often, almost that of the outside temperature.
Logically, at the bottom, under the cluster, the temperature will be often that of the bottom super - therefore it will be the coldest and often colder than that of the outside air. . . .
In such conditions, the outer layer of bee-cluster will in such very low temperature - freeze !
 
( When outside weather has a warming trend - hive inside is colder than outside! Wrap, insulation, slows considerably the infiltration of outside coldness - in warming trend this is of course - reversed!)
 
Bees in the cluster share in their duty/guard to the outside.  They rotate!  So that those bees too, have a chance to warm up and eat.  If temperature outside don't let up, over two to tree day period, or the sun don't shine, such outside layer of clustering bees will die from starvation - NOT FROM COLD!

I should here mention, that bees can bring up the temperature of their surrounding space (in the hive) by about 13 degrees, maximum!  
It is good to keep this in mind....  
So, when the temperature outside is in the thirties - in the hive is in the forties and bees have probably a patch of brood going and can even fly....
The colder the hive space gets, the tighter the cluster. At certain point in time, this 13 degrees is no longer detected and/or even possible to achieve, much less to maintain.
  
So, in my hive - when the outside is minus 30, or -40, or even -50, this cluster is almost "rock hard," so to speak and bees are in overdrive creating barely enough heat and burning a lot of honey, just to keep as many a bee they can - from freezing. . . . on such a day a strong buzzing/grinding  sound is heard with a free-ear, even by an old man such as I!  No need for stethoscopes and such.
(A simple plastic tube can be slowly inserted in the hive through the entrance and other end stuck in the ear  - if one is really that eager to her them buzzing?)

So, the cluster could be encompassing the whole upper box when temperature is right for them to do so. In such a loose cluster occasional interference has no ill affect on the bees.
But, when the hive is in the freeze and the cluster is tight and working in overdrive - ANY DISTURBANCE WILL KILL THEM!
This could be as innocent as a small bird picking up a few dead bees from the front - for a snack?  Or a mouse scurrying about and looking for a way to get in. . . ?

The balance between life and death of bees in extreme cold is very delicate and most often it's something totally insignificant to us, that can tilt the scale against them.



 author=LocustHoney link=topic=12779.msg88300#msg88300 date=1200763030]
I am a little confused....Trot said.....One has to remember that bees DO NOT HEAT THE HIVE!!! ------Opening hives is usually detrimental to bees in cold climates. (one lets out all the heat from the cluster and if cold nights follow, the bees are goners!)......maybe I am just not understanding your explanation.



The above misunderstood portion has actually more factors involved than just:  (one lets out all the heat from the cluster and if cold nights follow, the bees are goners!)

Most are already laid out above. . . .
Surely, I will also miss some. . . . Cause, most knowledge about bees is after 53 years a part of me and is almost embarrassing to be bringing it out to light.  It is for me natural like breathing and I for one seldom think about it. It only becomes sort of bothersome when I read/hear about beeks get their bees in trouble - over it. Guess I was not a born-educator/teacher?  Sorry for wandering off. . . .

When this occurs, opening of the hive, the rhythm of the cluster is disturbed. They do have a rhythm, if you will?  A sort of deep concentration, a collective effort is here gathered and at work. Perhaps a bit awkward explanation, on my part? But this is how I can best put it together?
As previously said: The rhythm is disturbed, the cluster loosens and the heat producing efforts are severed!
The bees do, most often - than not,  break cluster and investigate.  They are most often, extremely annoyed and will attack/defend their home!
Heat thus escapes and the cluster is at the mercy of deadly infiltration of surrounding (cold) air.
Any brood, that they might or might not have, is in danger of becoming chilled.
If all intrusion is immediately ceased and hive is without any further disturbance - (disturbance: Knocks, scraping, dropping equipment, jolts and jars, etc. . . .) closed, they might have a chance - but I would not bet on it!?
If the weather is in the minus - freezing - bees are already lost! (Even though they are moving about and make your inquisitive heart jump with joy!)
In warmer regions/weather - they MAY get back together and "reform" the cluster. And generate this all important heat, without which the cluster is doomed!

Scientific studies have shown that it takes disturbed cluster a minimum of 3 days to recuperate, reestablish it's rhythm and again starts producing heat to sustain itself.
This same study has also concluded that the upper entrance is ever more important than we gave it credit for.
They concluded that those bees with upper entrance have ready exit to do their thing - if nothing more than just take a look at the sky above?
Those bees without the upper entrance?  God help them....
They have no chance to get outside at all!  To climb all the way down through cold, often wet and mildewy lower chamber, is all but impossible, if not deadly!
Such bees, if by some miracle survive, will suffer heavyly by dysentery, nosema and myriad of other ills. . . . .

(I feel the need to mention that this study did not involve opening the hive!  Just simple disturbance - like knocking, etc. . . .)

Now, for those of you who do not agree?  
The above is true for locations where bees, or yards, are isolated from everyday life.
Bees in close relations/locations are a bit differently predisposition-ed to disturbances. Although they can perhaps tolerate walking about? Tolerate cars, animals about, etc....

Some time ago I was in contact with one beekeeper in Europe who did not agree to something similar that I wrote in one of their beekeeping magazines a  while back.  In times when we did not have Varroa, or TM and such.  
That man bragged about how he had been keeping a bee-house some 100 meters from the railroad tracks and bees were doing fine!?
Sure.
He got down right nasty, cause I did not give him an satisfactory answer.  So, at the end I did suggest that he move in, to that location, a few hives from a quieter location.
He did and he got his answer.  
All newly brought in hives were lost - come Spring. . . .


« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 04:33:48 pm by Trot »

Offline Trot

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2008, 08:18:16 pm »
They very well might just be frozen & not dead...they look perfect but just "frozen" in place.  There was some condensation inside on the boxes & frames so it could be condensation too.

Flygirl,

I hope that you have a piece of Styrofoam on top of inner cover - under the top cover?

Condensation?  That means that they are eating - or had been eating a short while ago or that condensation would have been dry or frozen....

Good luck and let them bee. . . .

Regards,
Trot

Offline Flygirl

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2008, 01:01:54 am »
Trot ~

Well, I think I screwed up because I had styrofoam under the top cover but then I swithched to a top feeder & I didn't think I could use the styrofoam so I just put the outer cover on the top. 

I think I need to vent from the top but what's the best way to do this?  Via the cover or drilled holes?  It seems like the holes would let in too much cold air?  Doesn't the styrofoam seal it up tight?  How to vent with the styrofoam?  I'm having a hard time visualizing this...?

I have a plan for next year to cover cardboard with this the stickyback roofing tar paper.  I'm going to make "slip-covers" for my hives & insulate them...  Maybe I'll post the design & a picture...I'm plotting this this winter.

Thanks again for reading & posting.  I have a lot to think about :)   Grounded Flygirl ~
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Offline Cindi

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2008, 10:30:12 am »
I am a little confused....Trot said.....One has to remember that bees DO NOT HEAT THE HIVE!!! ------Opening hives is usually detrimental to bees in cold climates. (one lets out all the heat from the cluster and if cold nights follow, the bees are goners!)......maybe I am just not understanding your explanation.

LocustHoney, you have good reason to be confused.  The bees are confusing little dudes, the things they do.  Ha!!!

I will try to further explain what Trot has said, to the best that I can.  When the bees are in the winter cluster, they are heating that cluster.  It is not their intention to heat their hive.  If the hive has any heat is has been radiated from the cluster.  The corners of the inside of the hive boxes can be as cold as outside.  Their entire agenda in life is to survive, keep their brood and queen warm, and themselves.  The don't want to heat their house, only themselves, and this they do just fine.

Yes, adding onto what Trot said about the bees looking lifeless.  With my adventures this year with my bees, there were times when I had seen, what I thought to be a lifeless bee, in our swimming pool, and just like Jerry did, I have picked up these bees and blew my warm breath on them.  Within a few minutes these bees would be off on their merry way.  I did this breathing on the bees because I remembered Trot speaking about this, in a post, so long ago.

THis is the most wonderful part of this forum.  We all have experiences to share.  We are taught by people that have been keeping bees for almost all of their lives. Listen and learn, this should be our mandate to keep our bees healthy and strong.  And this we shall do.  Have a wonderful, greatest of days.  Cindi

Flygirl, like was said, wait and see, don't be too quick to call all the bees dead.

Suffocation......snow is very porous, air can get through the snow.  That would not have been what had killed the bees, perhaps frozen, yes, but unlikely snow suffocation.

Take for example, the people that live in extremely cold places, like Finsky in Finland.  His colonies are covered in snow for a good part of the wintertime.  The snow acts as an insulator and helps to keep the boxes and the cluster within even a little more warm than those that are exposed to cold and wind.  You will hear more comments about this thread that you began, it is good.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2008, 12:53:10 pm »
i have a bit of a problem with the idea of top openings in the winter.  i haven't done it.  i could be all wet about it, but....

heat rises.  if you have an open top, the heat will go out.  if you have any lower openings, even small ones, you have created a chimney that will suck heat out.  where am i wrong?
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2008, 01:09:51 pm »
reread trots post which is excellent -good job on the post trot-RDY-B

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2008, 02:55:28 pm »
>where am i wrong?

Lack of heat is seldom what kills the hive, it's getting wet that kills them and that happens because of condensation and that happens because of no upper vent and high humidity.

I admit, condensation was never a problem in Mitchell, NE or Laramie, WY where it is much drier than here, but here (and anywhere there is much humidity at all) it can kill hives.

The upper entrances gives you a guarentee of air even if the bottom entrance is buried in snow, an entrance they can get out, even if the bottom entrance is plugged with snow or dead bees, and it reduces condensation on the lid which keeps the bees dry.

My top entrances in winter are usually only 2 1/2" wide or so and between 1/4" and 5/16" high.
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Offline Trot

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Re: Suffocation ?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2008, 04:20:50 pm »
Flygirl said:
Well, I think I screwed up because I had Styrofoam under the top cover but then I switched to a top feeder & I didn't think I could use the Styrofoam so I just put the outer cover on the top.  
I think I need to vent from the top but what's the best way to do this?  Via the cover or drilled holes?  It seems like the holes would let in too much cold air?  Doesn't the Styrofoam seal it up tight?  How to vent with the Styrofoam?  I'm having a hard time visualizing this...?



Since you are in Alaska, I would leave the set up as it is. Any disturbance, much less tearing off the feeder, will do them harm.
(Breaking the propolis-seal is a bad thing in winter, cause bees can't seal it back and the crack could be a source of nasty drought? That is also usually in spots where it does most damage to clustering bees!)

When you said "feeder on," I assume that is one of those box affairs that people use?
I have no use for them - but I suppose they a better than those darned Division feeders which take space instead of a frame. They should be outright baned IMO.
( I adopted a long time ago the standard inner cover with center hole on to which I install a feeding pail (7kg - 15 lbs in Spring I use Glass jars cause those are not affected by cold and don't drip like plastic might?  Of course around jars pails a stuff burlap, old woolen blankets also make Styrofoam box-covers. With hot glue! Got to keep feed warm for them to take it. They don't touch cold feed!)

Well, Flygirl, we should make do with what we got at hand. If you have old woolen things that are dated? Perhaps an old woolen blanket, etc?  I would cut that up in small strips. Half or an inch wide and whatever long? Stuff the feeder full with it.
(Wool is earth' best insulation - even when wet!  If time is not an issue, a small pillow like thingy can be made with this  and is handy to handle. Also handy to store and replace when  wet or full of ice?)

Possibilities here are endless. Once you got the idea what hurts the bees and you want to alleviate this hurt. It is same with most animals that we like to keep?!
You can cut old Styrofoam pieces and fill the box. Even sawdust, shavings, hay, etc.  Leaves are good further south - in your case that would be better if there were a cloth of some kind for the floor of that blasted feeder. (than condensation would go to the hay - leaves - and from there dissipate to the outside)
Hey, even packing peanuts will do the job.!?

Idea is, to insulate the top of the hive so it won't sweat/drip on the bees!  
You can install the Styrofoam right on top of the feeder and cut a shallow notch in the bottom of each side. About 3/8 x an inch or two wide.  Not too big, cause critters will get in!

What I have, is a deeper telescopic cover and I nailed on the inside strips of 3/4x3/4. So that the cover will sit on a hive high, thus giving above the Styrofoam a 4, 5 or 6 inch space, sort of an Attic, if you will.  In the side I drilled 3 holes -3/4 inch - on an angle. From the outside looking up, so water will shed off. Inside i stapled and hot-glued mosquito screen to keep ants/critters out. This cover is turned in winter with holes to the back. So with hives elevated at the back there is natural outflow and ventilation of this attic space.  This is important in summer especially in southern regions where heat is more intense. . . .

You have mentioned about drilling hole in the box?
Please don't!
Firstly:  Can't be done now.
Secondly: I had some time ago read some writings of an Commercial beek and an innovator. He stated that holes drilled around the handholds on a super was the most useless, idiotic and wasteful idea that he had ewer come across. He stated that it is perhaps the worst way that one can harm bees and deface the equipment!?
I totally agree. The hole in the box at that location serves no good purpose. It can actually do much harm to bees.
(Can cause much pain if one forgets to plug it - when mooving the hives!)
It certainly does nothing to alleviate the condensation problem, cause that is forming at the top of the box - by the time this moisture comes to this hole, to spill out, IMO your bees are done!

In an emergency you can just cut 4 pieces of 3/4 inch pine and place them on each corner. this will do, but in Spring a proper job should be done - cause I am of a mind that if the job is worth your time doing - it should be done right! If not, it has a habit to bite you in the a.. at some latter time!

Flygirl, I hope that I did not sound too confusing?  If I did, just shout and more can be said?
I hope that others can get something out of it also.  I have been on this thread for a while and I know that a lot have  already lost some bees needlessly?!  A lot have problems - with bees surviving - just barely and suffering in the process....

For those of you who appreciate my input, I wish you luck and I also thank you for occasional nice word that comes my way.
For those who are not quite sold on this wintering dilemma - they can check out the above, nice scientific account, describing the happenings in the hive come winter.
(I like to read that too, but it makes me sad, cause than I realize how stupid and old I must be?
 Although I understand the therms described - but to take that jumble of fancy words and do something with it - that is another story. To make it work in individual situations, another still. . . .

Friends, don't be afraid to try things out. I have been doing this from the time I was 12 years old in old Carniola, what is now known as Slovenia.  The land of best beekeepers in the world!
What I tel you to do - you will find on, or in my hives and this and more, all come with long trial and error!  Through countless - hard years of blood, sweat and tears.

Wish you all dry and happy bees, at least till Spring. . . .


 

anything