Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BjornBee on February 20, 2011, 03:44:31 pm
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As part of the National Honey Bee Day program, we have started a petition drive in support of the honey bee and beekeepers all across the country.
Details can be found, as well as a downloadable petition form at www.nationalhoneybeeday.org (http://www.nationalhoneybeeday.org)
We ask that you consider printing out a petition form and also taking one to your local bee association.
The petition drive will continue all summer with the climax ending with the National Honey Bee Day program in Late August. We have plans to hand deliver the petition forms to Washington and hopefully meet with key officials to hear our concerns.
So please spread the word. Together we can make changes.
Thank you.
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I could not find what we are asking Washington to change with the petition.
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I couldn't either. For what it's worth after reading that site I think a round of kumbaya and some smores should suffice in place of a petition drive.
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We have no plans to call the EPA liars and bastards. We have no plans of calling government officials crooks. We have no plans of "demanding" anything. This is not about being radical and demanding anything. it's about calling attention and keeping whatever small presence there is for beekeepers.
What we want to do, is continue the focus on the bee losses by having beekeepers and associations connect and spread the word of the beekeeping problems with a summer long petition drive. Which happens to a great way to connect with the public and bring attention to some of the problems in the industry.
Then later this summer, set up a meeting with whoever and anybody willing to listen to our concerns and problems. We want to let officials know that the bee problems continue and will not be brushed under the rug or forgotten over time.
Are all the details worked out? No. Will there be a small contingent of folks traveling to Washington, or a larger group willing to meet on the steps of the Capitol? I don't know.
But unlike some, I'm willing to do the work, pull the money out of my pocket, and do something. If you thinks it's crap or funny....please carry on in your own life.
Thank you for the positive comments. ;)
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Thanks BjornBee, numbers 'really' do make a difference.
thomas
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Here is the petition
BjornBee if you want me to remove it say so and its gone
Tommyt
National Honey Bee Day
“Help the Honey Bee” Petition Drive
We the undersigned, request acknowledgement to the problems and plight that honey bees have endured. Recent massive honey bee colony deaths, at levels not seen previously in history, are signs that something is wrong in the environment. Native pollinators, bats, frogs, butterflies, and the honey bee in particular are being killed off due to a host of agriculture practices. The increased use of pesticides, herbicides and fungicides, and new classes of approved chemicals are contributing to the loss of honey bees. Without honey bees for pollination our food crops are in peril. And we seek support and change to allow honey bees to thrive.
Name Signature Location (town & state)
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Guess I'd add "beekeepers" to we the undersigned. otherwize, good enough.
thomas
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Thank you tommyt and T Beek.
The petition is not limited too beekeepers. While I think the main thrust will be by beekeepers, we want everyone concerned about the bees plights, nature loving folks, etc., to get involved and support this effort. It's just easier to address this, and promote it, as part of the beekeeping programs we already have built. But we hope to partner with and have other concerned groups lend their support. Where this goes and how it ends up, is yet to be determined.
4 years into CCD and yet not one item of change can be seen. I think we as beekeepers have stood back and figured some higher level beekeepers or academia types would get this all worked out. And that has not happened. And this may not amount to major change either. But I think we can make "baby steps" and this is one way that each and every beekeeper can make a small contribution towards a larger concept and program.
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Hi Mike hope you are doing well been awhile. Anyway im all game for this petition we need answers not suggestions we need to get back to keeping bees instead of trying to figure out how to keep them alive. Its time for uncle sam to spend some money and get to the bottom of this dilemma. Im guessing you lost some hives this winter along with the rest of us and are fed up with the issues. Chris
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Its Uncle Sams (that's us) Big AG Lobby (that's them) who needs to be convinced into spending "Less" on defending their profit driven products/poisons and I really think they already know what's going on or at least what's "contributing" to bee losses. Profit doesn't care who looses.
thomas
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thomas,
I agree.
You may find the article I posted in the Beekeeper ramblings thread of particular interest. ;)
I think the road for agriculture in the future is paved without a bee in sight.
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Thanks BjornBee, Your exactly right, I believe its why so little is "really" being done. Those in power have faith (brainwashed with money) that BIG AG will still be able to feed the world, rrriiight. There has been a movement for quite some time to gain ever more control over all aspects of food production and more importantly for those doing the "real" starving, food distribution, which they've already won. People will do anything when they're starving and thirsty. And some are salivating at the thought (same folks that can't wait to grow oranges at the North Pole, no doubt).
Seeds, specifically (ooops) HYBRED seeds are totally under control of BIG AG, they own most of the pattens. They do what they will to promote their seed while doing their best to limit plantings of "heirloom" varieties, particularly in poor countries, not that the US is left off the (meat?) hook.
As soon as they've perfected the methods of producing seeds that require no pollination, they will have screwed us all and all seeds/food will come from them and who needs bees then?. I'm paraphrasing, but that is a stated mission.
Spread the word, Save bees by saving seeds (and refusing to buy theirs).
thomas
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I don't get it. Ag is more chemical intensive because we have evolved into industrial agriculture. The demand for chemicals is there and isn't going to go away with 7 billion people on the planet. The chemical companies simply serve that demand. They have moved away from synthetic organic compounds in response to EPA regulations, which is a good thing for bees overall. In my industry (tree fruit), systems are MUCH more integrated than in the past. Pest management programs include bio-pesticides such as viruses and nematodes as well as pheromone mating disruption. That's good for pollinators.
Thanks to GM crops, pesticide use is actually declining significantly in Corn, Soy, and Cotton. Those crops alone account for the majority of ag lands in the USA.
The argument on the petition that pesticide use is increasing is not scientifically defensible.
Furthermore, I think there have been a number of important breakthroughs from the "academia types" on CCD. It is a complicated and relatively recent problem. It is unrealistic to expect too much too fast. And I think there would be more breakthroughs with more funding for the research. Unfortunately, science funding has been under attack since the 1960's. Literally there are only a handful of scientists that can investigate CCD full time. IMO a petition should lobby for something specific, like more funding for the science, or better regulations to protect the beekeeping/honey industry. Otherwise I don't see the point.
While I don't agree with a lot of the big ag practices and personally would rather support family farms and organic farming, lets be realistic. Big ag is not going anywhere.
Thus, we need factually sound arguments to protect the beekeeping industry.
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Thanks to GM crops, pesticide use is actually declining significantly in Corn, Soy, and Cotton. Those crops alone account for the majority of ag lands in the USA.
Right on there. Pretty soon those chemical companies will be out of business and we won't be importing any more of that foreign oil. Hey, could I have a puff of that stuff you are smoking? :-D
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Do your research and check the facts bro. You'll find I'm right. Quick ref attached.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/292/5517/637.2.full (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/292/5517/637.2.full)
You can't fight big ag with idealism or emotion.
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Hi Mike,
There are a few things to consider here:
1. If you don't know what you want done, how are elected representatives to be expected to do something productive?
2. Being specific has it's own problems. Do we want more $$ spent on research? In theory, I would say yes, but in practice, there is research that we've already paid for that we don't have access to. For instance:
http://beeuntoothers.com/JPInterview.pdf (http://beeuntoothers.com/JPInterview.pdf)
...is an excerpt from transcript of a film that is being shown in Europe. Two of the top U.S. bee researchers are talking about studies that have been complete for 2 years showing 4X the nosema infection rate in bees with undetectable levels of imidacloprid. They use it for publicity, but it has not been published, and Jeff declined to give Randy Oliver a copy to read. Either the study is good and should be published (and more importantly, the information should be available to beekeepers, farmers, legislators, etc), or it is poorly done and should not be published (and the researchers should not be making the claims they make).
Do we want to give them more funding?
I'm not at all criticizing what you are trying to do, but any PR campaign _has_ to have a take home message, an action item...otherwise, the NHB will use the support you are building to support their own agenda.
deknow
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Mike,
Thank you for spearheading this weighty task. As my handle suggests, I live in DC and will be happy to help on the ground here ahead of your plans to set up meetings.
Best,
Jeff Miller
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Mike,
Thank you for spearheading this weighty task. As my handle suggests, I live in DC and will be happy to help on the ground here ahead of your plans to set up meetings.
Best,
Jeff Miller
Thank you Jeff.
I hope you use the petition drive in any way you can to reach out and connect with the community. I hope it provides the opportunity to make a change, even if they are one baby step at a time. I see no national effort, campaign, or concerted effort in doing much other than raising funds for research. I am humbled when those I have never met, can see the bigger picture and get involved.
I wish the best in your efforts.
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..otherwise, the NHB will use the support you are building to support their own agenda.
deknow
Are you talking about the National Honey Bee Day program? Or the National Honey Board?
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wouldn't it be more effective to concentrate efforts on education than on a petition with inaccurate and non-specific info...and to what end? what do you want the govt to do?
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Are you talking about the National Honey Bee Day program? Or the National Honey Board?
Sorry, National Honey Board.
If you are successful, you will have 100,000 signatures looking for "change' to help the honeybee.
The NHB will come along and say what that change should be to "help beekeepers" (really to "help importers/packers)...and it will appear that the 100,000 you get to sign the petition is in support.
deknow
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wouldn't it be more effective to concentrate efforts on education
Yes, but only if you target the youth. Elders will be dead before anything happens and youth has the most to gain in these efforts. Target social medias because the youth doesn't watch the news unless it is on facebook or some other internet media. They will also be the ones making the changes if they should occur in the government and corporate policies.
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Are you talking about the National Honey Bee Day program? Or the National Honey Board?
Sorry, National Honey Board.
If you are successful, you will have 100,000 signatures looking for "change' to help the honeybee.
The NHB will come along and say what that change should be to "help beekeepers" (really to "help importers/packers)...and it will appear that the 100,000 you get to sign the petition is in support.
deknow
When we first started National Honey Be Day, we were approached by several bee organizations that wanted to give us credit, take the program, and run with it. We declined all requests and offers. And have been very strict that the National Honey Bee Day program be as a grassroots effort. And not one to be commercialized, or bastardized in any way. And that commitment will continue as long as I am alive.
One of the reasons I do some of the things I do, is for the reasoning, assumptions, and views, that nothing should happen in this country without certain groups taking the lead. As if beekeepers banding together is not possible. As if some inner circle of individuals run everything in this country when it comes to bees.
But how is that working out? Where are not marches, petitions, and national campaigns? What is there for the average beekeeper to hang their hat on in hoping something will change in the future? Other than national queen programs that promote honey (foreign honey at that) and some companies such as those selling ice cream and raising funds for research (which I do not think is the answer for many of the problems we face in the bee industry) we see little actual organization, effort, or willingness to get the beekeeping community active in matters effecting them.
Me...I'm tired of sitting around waiting for something to happen. I'm tired of thinking someone else will make a difference. And I think there may be others that feel the same disappointment that I have for the past four years.
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wouldn't it be more effective to concentrate efforts on education than on a petition with inaccurate and nonspecific info...and to what end? what do you want the govt to do?
What inaccurate information are you suggesting on the petition kathy?
I hope your not basing it on one narrow article about GM crops. I know for a fact that the lawn care industry itself had tripled in the past 10 years. I think you have badly missed the overall chemical use increase in this country, perhaps based on one slanted supposedly scientific article on Gm crops. I think we can do better than that.
As for education...is not a petition a form of educating the public? Holding up a clip board and yelling "Help save the bees" would probably garner some signatures from the public at most social events. And I highly doubt they will be asking for finer details of what will and what will not be asked, demanded, or stated, later in some yet to be set meeting in Washington. I know I have shown the petition to a number of folks and they have nothing but concern for the bees and are more than willing to sign the petition. I have simply told them the petition hopefully creates enough chatter and support to get a meeting. It's a great way to open up a discussion to the problems in the industry. So please hold up the clip board, and be prepared to have the public ask lots of questions. Not about the petition....but about the bees. It's a great educational tool.
This gives me an idea....maybe I should just bypass the beekeepers and just go straight to the public. They seem much more willing to support a general petition calling attention to the plight of the Honey bee, and far less willing to get hung up on smaller details. ;) And we wonder why nothing ever gets done. :roll:
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I hear what your saying Mike its kinda like the situation of the recession in this country everyone barks but nothing happens the people just sit back and watch and hope the gov will fix it :buttkick:
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We the undersigned, request acknowledgement to the problems and plight that honey bees have endured. Recent massive honey bee colony deaths, at levels not seen previously in history, are signs that something is wrong in the environment. Native pollinators, bats, frogs, butterflies, and the honey bee in particular are being killed off due to a host of agriculture practices. The increased use of pesticides, herbicides and fungicides, and new classes of approved chemicals are contributing to the loss of honey bees. Without honey bees for pollination our food crops are in peril. And we seek support and change to allow honey bees to thrive.
not unprecedented. it's happened before and before pesticides.
prove the connection between loss of pollinators and pesticides, etc.
i'm not saying that you are wrong. i am only saying that you can't make the connection. to my knowledge, try as they might, no one has made that connection in a verifiable way.
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You can't fix something that isn't broken. The system is working as planned.
We are no where near the point of setting ourselves on fire. So there is not going to be a revolution to change the direction of how things are planned. Money talks and always will.
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to my knowledge, try as they might, no one has made that connection in a verifiable way.
Look at the people that refuse to eat food that has been sprayed with pesticides. Then look and those that don't care. Now here is the easy part, compare their medical history. It is a no brainer.
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The public momentum is on our side...I spent all day Saturday at a sustainable food/agriculture event in DC. There were 500 people there. The beekeeping demonstration was standing room only. This sustainable movement is organized by, and led by folks who may not necessarily gel socially or politically with some beekeepers but they have been very supportive of my efforts to educate and propagate colonies in my urban locale. They seem to have the same issues with Big Agriculture (pesticides, herbicides, GM, etc) that we do. I have allied myself with these groups and they have helped considerably with outreach. I wish I had that petition three days ago (or had the initiative to start my own) as I would have had several hundred signatures.
I have also done installations at two restaurant farms that will use the "sustainability" vocabulary when referring to my bee efforts on their farms.
And Whole Foods has sponsored several District Government community gardens here in DC with part of that sponsorship investing in hives.
The District Parks and Rec beekeeping course is oversubscribed with over 100 participants.
Wind is at our backs, ladies and gentlemen. I see this petition as a means of keeping the importance of beekeeping in the public conscience, expanding our reach beyond our small community to a younger, "mainstreamed," and "connected" demographic.
Peace,
Jeff
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i hope you are right Dc the bees are def quite amazing and after awhile the stings dont seem to bother you because you know the bees are on our side and without them life just wouldnt be the same from my perspective :jail:
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kathy,
What part are you suggesting is wrong?
The first highlighted part is....."Recent massive honey bee colony deaths, at levels not seen previously in history." And that is absolutely correct. Although bees have died off in the past, no count of colony loss has been seen by today's numbers, which is in the hundreds of thousands of colonies.
History shows that we have had die offs before. But these were isolated to regions, or state level losses. NOTHING has come close to the bee die offs seen in the past 3-4 years on a national scale. Making my first comment highlighted by you....correct.
The second highlighted statement is "Native pollinators, bats, frogs, butterflies, and the honey bee in particular are being killed off due to a host of agriculture practices."
Holy crap! Are you suggesting that no agriculture practices have ever killed off any bees, bats, frogs, or butterflies. Absolutely amazing. I myself lost 10 hives in 2009 due to no-till late season sprays. And I have experienced partial loss of a bee colony many times due to sprays associated with commercial farms and sprays. And it seems many other beekeepers have seen pesticide poisoning, colony loss, and impacts of farming practices. If you stating that no proof has ever been seen that farming practices have ever killed off any of the items listed.....I have no idea how to respond to this. Your either totally isolated from the rest of the world, or just ignorant to the problems.
On their own merit....EVERY statement I made in that paragraph is TRUE.
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i'm not saying it's wrong. i'm saying that you can't make a connection between massive loss (CCD) and pesticide. of course we lose hives from pesticide. that's not the same thing. we have reports that go back to the 1800's of CCD like losses. those losses were probably much higher than we know as there was no good way to report and keep track.
same for your contention that native pollinators are being killed off. no doubt some are killed by pesticides, but if there is a real reduction of numbers, i have seen no postmortem proof that an over all reduction is due to pesticides.
so...it's not that you are wrong, it's just that there is no proof that you are right. rather than things you can't support, could you document the increase use of chemicals and point out how that might be harmful to bees, bats, etc. you could make your point with some real numbers. around here, people are trying to use less because it's expensive and it's what consumers want. of course, the grass seed farmers are back to using fungicides on the fields because they can't burn them off anymore, but that's another subject. ;)
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kathy,
Your asking me to prove something I never said. I never said pesticides are responsible for CCD losses. I never said there was a real reduction in native pollinators. Read the petition statement again. Your adding meaning, claiming things that do not exist, and are nitpicking over your own reading of statements that should be very clear.
Show me what statement had me saying CCD was from pesticides.
Show me what statement claiming a reduction in native pollinators.
your own comments claim I did both of these things.
And I never once even mentioned CCD in the statement.
For cryin out loud. It's not that hard to understand.
It's a freakin petition. Not a research article to stand before the public and fill their heads with statistical data, foot notes, and research garble. It's a petition designed to make connections with the public in terms and words they understand.
No wonder the bee industry is so screwed up.
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Mike, I don't think you are understanding me. I'm trying to encourage you to be more effective in what you are doing...not to stifle you.
I'm not suggesting that you would sell out to the NHB.
A petition that demands unspecified action gets the attention of legislators. Legislators read the petition, and ask, "what should we do to make beekeepers (voters, supporters of agriculture) happy?" The NHB is right there to answer, the USDA researchers are there to answer, xerces is there...you are not.
In no way do I think you (or anyone) should conform to any establishment (we certainly don't), or should wait for regional or national groups.
I think you should do what you want....but I think you would do better to formulate what you think should be done and by whom.
deknow
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Cascadebee said; you cant fight BIG AG with idealism and emotion. Wanna bet?
Where would we be if Big Ag had NO oposition????
I've been fighting them for over 30 years, been attending sustainable farming workshops and the like for nearly 20 years.
I was an organic farmer BEFORE BIG AG stole the entire concept and corupted it for their own profits. (I no longer use the term when refering to my land)
I (and many like me) fight BIG AG every year we plant seeds that we saved ourselves.
Change happens because people make it or demand that it happen, not government or industry, people.
thomas
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We're getting off topic a bit here. I don't think this was posted as a political discussion.
Bjorn asked if you would help with his petition drive. he gave a link to the info.
There was really probably two ways to do this. Help with the petition ,or not.
If nothing else ,it keeps the awareness out there. If we don't keep the information out front,it could soon be a forgotten cause.
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Mike, I don't think you are understanding me. I'm trying to encourage you to be more effective in what you are doing...not to stifle you.
I'm not suggesting that you would sell out to the NHB.
A petition that demands unspecified action gets the attention of legislators. Legislators read the petition, and ask, "what should we do to make beekeepers (voters, supporters of agriculture) happy?" The NHB is right there to answer, the USDA researchers are there to answer, xerces is there...you are not.
In no way do I think you (or anyone) should conform to any establishment (we certainly don't), or should wait for regional or national groups.
I think you should do what you want....but I think you would do better to formulate what you think should be done and by whom.
deknow
I understand.
And as long as they (the groups mentioned above) are the chosen few that actual do anything, promote themselves as the leaders, they will be exactly who they are. And we (the average beekeeper) will remain in the background, providing little more than lip service as cardboard cutouts with numbers that seemingly give tacit approval as seen by others.
I didn't go to a bunch of higher authorities of large national or commercial groups, which I certainly could of, and probably would of been an easier route in getting a petition up and running. I am pleading with the average beekeeper to give your support, get involved, and try to make a difference....while perhaps seeing the bigger picture and not getting bogged down with finer details of the effort.
But I see now trying to get beekeepers to sign a petition without needing to take into account each and every person out there and the way they would do it, is a task that to make this be a success...an effort with little chance of success.
Not clear enough, no facts to back up the statement, have not requested a concrete dollar figure, have not stated which chemicals should be banned, have not decided exactly what we may say to person who we may actually get a chance to talk too (whoever that may be), worried about other groups taking over......and it never stops.
You don't think this worthy....then don't sign the petition. You want to nitpick every detail...then don't sign the petition. But at this point, I have wasted enough time trying to appease some beekeepers, that until now has done little themselves except sit back and whine about things.
You know how it feels to take the time to make an effort such as this, and days later comments showing flaws of the effort (that could of been passed via PM) have been turned into bickering, turned into a discussion of how it will fail, and has cast a positive effort into something that thousands of beekeepers, as well as thousands of casual readers to this site, probably has them scratching their heads in amazement.
No doubt, whether a specific product to be banned was mentioned in the statement, a dollar figure, or any other specific demand, someone would of had a problem with it. I thought it was better to be general. I thought just doing a petition to be used by beekeepers as an educational tool, a petition to create some effect, a petition possibly supported by enough beekeepers and the public, to garner even a slight chance at a meeting in Washington, was the way to go. That it would not be limiting, or confined to details that could not be changed later. I see now that no matter the details, no matter the effort, that opening this up to the average beekeeper on this forum may of been a mistake.
Deknow...this is not directly at you. I understand what you are saying. And if I change this....someone has a problem with that. So I change it again...and new people have problems. And it never ends. If I ask 10 beekeepers to tell me how to do it....will I not get 11 replies. I just wish beekeepers could for once come together, understand that the next 9 guys standing next to them, all have different opinions, different ways of doing things. But that does not mean we all can't take a united step forward for a worthy cause. You think the beekeeper sitting on the fence that MIGHT of been inclined to get involved (even if it was to sign a petition which is not asking much)...may just rethink that approach after reading some of these over blown concerns? A real shame.
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We're getting off topic a bit here. I don't think this was posted as a political discussion.
Bjorn asked if you would help with his petition drive. he gave a link to the info.
There was really probably two ways to do this. Help with the petition ,or not.
If nothing else ,it keeps the awareness out there. If we don't keep the information out front,it could soon be a forgotten cause.
Thank you buzzbee.
And thank you to DChoneybees, T beek, and all the other supportive comments.
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I don't think this was posted as a political discussion.
Petitions are political in nature. If you sensor the discussions you will loose the chance to convince an opponent to change their mind and join in.
Kathy, when global warming was first conceived as a bad thing people like you claimed there was no proof. Today some of those people still exist and claim there is no proof. To them the end of the world is their only proof. If you want to wait until all the bees are gone you will have your proof.
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Kathy, when global warming was first conceived as a bad thing people like you claimed there was no proof.
And now the proof that the whole global warming fiasco is nothing more than BS, is coming out. So what's your point?
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What BJ is doing, needs to be done. Is he doing it the right way?
Well, at least he's doing something.
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BjornBee,
I will print and circulate your petition. As I said in my introduction, Aurora Colorado has a pro beekeeping law because people "spoke up" by sending letters to the legislators who had the power to do something. I like your drive and passion to try and change something. You are not passively sitting back complaining but stepping forward and acting. Thank you for your willingness to take this step, even when you are given flack by the very people who stand to benefit from your efforts.
How may signatures do you have so far? The website for National Honey Bee Day shows a count of zero, and I know you have to have more than that.
Have you spoken with any of the media sources for coverage in newspapers, tv, radio?
Tom
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iddee; You're gonna have to back up "your assertion" with some facts, or some may think what you say is BS ;) You may want to change the channel once in awhile too:-D
Tom: I'm sure BjornBee is waiting for the mail delivery (he just posted this right??), we have until August, I can get alot of signatures by then.
thomas
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For the first time, I'm going to agree with Acebird. The idea that _anyone_ should encourage the signing of _any_ petition without discussion is insane.
I think Kathy hit it on the head..."what do you want the gov't to do"? If you can't define that, what impact do you hope to have?
Snopes has an excellent article about online petitions:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp (http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.asp)
Petitions calling for the erection of a firefighter's memorial or to have next Thursday designated national performing arts day have some small hope of success, but all bets are off whe the question becomes more complx ("Let's solve the problem of poverty in the USA")....Difficult problems don't suddenly yield up simple solutions just because a great many fervently hope they would....
What I've said here is the same thing I would say for any similarly worded petition, no matter the cause, no matter the context.
deknow
deknow
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deknow: who said there was gonna be no discussion?
Kathy hit someone on the head??? :shock:
I don't think there are many around here who expect the government to do anything. People do the doing, anything else is an illusion, (not that politicians don't take credit for what people do all the time) ;).
thomas
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BjornBee,
I will print and circulate your petition. As I said in my introduction, Aurora Colorado has a pro beekeeping law because people "spoke up" by sending letters to the legislators who had the power to do something. I like your drive and passion to try and change something. You are not passively sitting back complaining but stepping forward and acting. Thank you for your willingness to take this step, even when you are given flack by the very people who stand to benefit from your efforts.
How may signatures do you have so far? The website for National Honey Bee Day shows a count of zero, and I know you have to have more than that.
Have you spoken with any of the media sources for coverage in newspapers, tv, radio?
Tom
Thank you very much Tom.
We are having a committee meeting on March 6th, and hopefully will assign individuals for such tasks. We just started the whole process a few days ago. So national press releases, and such beyond some bee magazines and bee forums, is how far we got to this point. More to come. ;)
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deknow: who said there was gonna be no discussion?
buzzbee (moderator) said that discussion was off topic.
deknow
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Tom: I'm sure BjornBee is waiting for the mail delivery (he just posted this right??), we have until August, I can get alot of signatures by then.
thomas
That's the plan. Thank you for getting involved. ;)
Our local club alone has 10 observation hives scheduled to be installed at nature centers and state parks. Each one has multiple social events throughout the year. And with National Honey Bee Day, and hopefully assistance from the many bee associations taking part in that days festivities, and beekeepers like you all across the country, we have some great opportunities to connect with the public and have others jump on the cart being pushed down the street.
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So what's your point?
You are prooving my point.
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sorry i brought it up. my comments were not meant to be political. i just gave you my gut reaction to the petition. guess i didn't need to, as that was not what you asked for.
maybe next time you can give us the petition first. i'll even do the research for you and you can present some facts and numbers. :-D
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sorry i brought it up. my comments were not meant to be political. i just gave you my gut reaction to the petition. guess i didn't need to, as that was not what you asked for.
maybe next time you can give us the petition first. i'll even do the research for you and you can present some facts and numbers. :-D
I won't need it for another petition. But I will need a cover letter, a statement of facts to go along with the petition asking for consideration of certain requests for Washington, and perhaps a press release that could include a little bit more than what is on the petition itself. I'll mark you down and we can connect later on this. Seems you have a handle on it.
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deknow: who said there was gonna be no discussion?
buzzbee (moderator) said that discussion was off topic.
deknow
I never said discussion was off topic. But I saw this post going off in a direction other than what op asked about. If you don't agree with the petition,start your own or don't sign it or promote it.
I think the intentions are well founded.I get asked to sign or promote many petitions in a years time.
If I think a worthy cause,I sign or promote the petition. If not,I don't ask the originator to change it to suit my needs,I just say no thanks and carry on my way.
If discussion was off the board,the topic would have been locked. And that happens very rarely at Beemaster forums.
The post I previously posted in thisthread was a personal observation,not neceesarily that of moderator.
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And that happens very rarely at Beemaster forums.
Very wise policy. ;)
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Wise policy yes,but not free reigns. We have rules here and once gone over the line,we have pulled the plug. membership here is a privilege,not a guaranteed right. :)
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Wise policy yes,but not free reigns. We have rules here and once gone over the line,we have pulled the plug. membership here is a privilege,not a guaranteed right.
Won,t argue that point, but if you micro manage the discussion you will not have to worry about the privileges. It will be you and the other guy that thinks like you.
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Acebird
Won,t argue that point, but if you micro manage the discussion you will not have to worry about the privileges. It will be you and the other guy that thinks like you.
I belong to a number of forums and the most severely micromanaged ones have every post reviewed by a moderator every time. Those forums are very ineffective. I am still very new on this forum and learning a bit, however, I am pleased that it is very open, while maintaining civility.
Tom
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>>>>Won,t argue that point, but if you micro manage the discussion you will not have to worry about the privileges. It will be you and the other guy that thinks like you.<<<<
With 3376 members still here, I doubt many think it is micro managed. Some civility has to be maintained, tho, and I think they do a pretty good job of that.
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As a person who has had their fingers cracked a few times, I think they balance the freedom of the members to express their opinions, and the civility of the forum. You may not all see the PM behind the scenes, but I like the fact that they will send a private message and ask for some understanding or call for an end of something going bad.
Moderators on other sites make it public, puff out their chests, and make thing far worse than it ever needs to be.
I think the only thing worse than bad moderators, are folks who come to forums and expect to never see a debate, then are the first to claim someone is starting a pissin match when only a heated debate is happening, which is to be expected at times from passionate people with varying opinions.
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I can say from personal experience; this bee forum is considerably more tolerant (and has less Or no stuffed shirts with axes to grind) and are more willing to accept challenges than another one I won't mention right now :-D.
thomas
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And that is why it has 3376 members and growing.
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To me (no offense Bjorn) the petition seems like someone going into the office at work angry about something but does not want anything resolved.
Its your petition so do what you like with it Bjorn but I think if you look at some of the arguments here you find in them good content for the petition. We know wildlife is being killed by agriculture, we know bees are dieing, we know this, and we know that. It is these things that need to be addressed, causes found, solutions developed, and these could be the demands made.
One thing that disturbs me is clothianidin use apparently had no real competent studies done before or after it was given wide spread application rights. Werther it is or is not a cause for CCD is not the point but its potential risks to bees and other insects and other life should never be allowed to be repeated with other pesticides that come to the market. All pesticides in use should be investigated and re-evaluated if they have similar lack of research. We all (beekeepers and the general public) could benefit from a long term research program that has funding for looking into problems that are out there with our current system of regulating pesticides, looking into wildlife losses and seeking answers, and finding causes and reporting them to the public. I think that would be a great first step, getting a group who at least has the funding to find and report problems and seek the publics interest for solution.
Maybe Im wrong, but I just dont see any personal drive to sign it. I think with the amount of folks who have already made objection, it would be wise to change content. If you were going to market something, you would have to listen to the feedback given here and change the content to achieve your ultimate goal of attracting as much positive feedback before running your add.
My two pennies
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We all (beekeepers and the general public) could benefit from a long term research program that has funding for looking into problems that are out there with our current system of regulating pesticides,
You will never be able to outspend the people that have influence. The influence is what determines the result of the research.
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Actually I'm more interested in WHO does the RESEARCH work for the MEDICINE you and I both take !
Anyone care to guess WHO ??
A clue, it isn't the FDA !!
Bee-Bop
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Its largely the manufacturers/profiteers who are allowed to do their own research (with assisted tax dollars).
thomas
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I am not aware of any tax dollars going to pharmaceuticals unless it is for Aids, or stem cell research but Thomas is correct for the rest of the drugs. The company does all the testing and presents the findings to the FDA for approval. I will say the FDA employees are no dummies. I won't say money doesn't influence the FDA's decisions. Especially if there is federal politics going on.
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you are correct. it's not the FDA. for all the drugs in development, very few make it though the testing process and FDA approval. the drug companies do some initial testing, but testing is done by independent companies, in drug trials that are not only independent, but blind, and it takes many years. it's not until all forms of testing are done that all results are put before the FDA for analysis. it is the process of getting drugs before the FDA and through the approval system that makes them so very expensive. companies spend billions and many years, developing and testing a drug, only to have FDA not approve it. this is more the norm than the exception.
where there is more of a problem is with university grants from government. there you really do have a one hand washes the other relationship.
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The difference being that universities stay a float with grants and are also providing an education, or service if you will(not that I'm defending the practice, I'm not), while BIG Pharma makes billions in profits (that serve "who" again? ;) Certainly not me or you :roll:).
thomas
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you are correct. it's not the FDA.
where there is more of a problem is with university grants from government. there you really do have a one hand washes the other relationship.
Yes and many drugs are developed at the university's with tax dollar grants.
Then Guess What, the University's SELL these patents to Drug Co., most colleges even retain a percentage of ownership.
Bee-Bop
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while BIG Pharma makes billions in profits
Private universities are big businesses with huge profits.
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(that serve "who" again? Certainly not me or you ).
depends...i take it you don't own any stock? they pay dividends to investors. they are a better and better investment as the population ages. you don't take any meds? that's what keeps most of us ticking :-D
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Acebird; The operative word is "private"
KathyP; wouldn't think of it, heaven forbid ;) breathing is what keeps me ticking
thomas
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you don't take any meds? that's what keeps most of us ticking
No I don't. Unfortunately, that is what our society has come to. Take this pill for this and then six others to prevent the side affects. If you are living on pills you are ticking all right just like a time bomb. Good health is simple, diet and exercise. You are what you eat.
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That explains it.... :-D
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Good health is simple, diet and exercise.
simple things for simple....how does that go? :-D
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If you take profit away from modernizing medicine,you will soon see an end to cures.
Who wants to invest a lot of money with no hope for returns?
Nobody ever mentions when a pharmaceutical invests 100 million on research and loses when it is a dud.They only mention major profits.
Diet and exercise is not a cure all ailments. Just ask any one with cancer or rheumatoid arthritis. I knew a guy who ran regularly and ate much better than I did( health food wise) and died very young.If it was just diet and exercise, he should have been sittig here typing and I should have met the maker.
Then again,what has this got to do with the petition drive?
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If we beeks were serious about increasing our influence on how we are treated by the government regulators, we would hire a lobbyist to go to DC and get a piece of the next farm bill. Last cycle through vocal complaining and lobbying specialty crops grabbed a chunk of the cash that would have gone to midwest corn subsidies. They didn't want subsidies, they asked for research funds. The farm bill is a stupid game, but one we could play to our advantage if there were a united front of beekeepers. Big money for research proposed by bee-nuts and others. IMO a better use of taxpayer funds than subsidizing the conversion of oil into crap food and the ultimate farce, ethanol.
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Buzzbee; R U kidding? Saulk neither wanted nor sought "profit" for his work eliminating polio (or was it small pox?).
What has Big Pharma cured? Gimmi one example. Its too profitable to "treat" illness. Not much profit at all in curing any (see cancer). Pharma rarely uses "their" $ for research. When was the last time Big Pharma "lost' millions??? I'd really like to know that.
It appears that some are saying "what's the point of taking care of ouselves when a pill will come along and cure our ills" do I have that right? Now that is what I call having faith.
Cascadebee: It doesn't matter how serious we as beekeepers get as long as plutocratic corporatism (formerly known as facisim) rules this land. All we can do (until its declared illegal) is slow them down, but at least its something ;) Even if all beeks in the world got together and hired a lobbiest, do you think we could compete with the profiteers? Really?
thomas
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Not all modern medicine is pills.And yes there is examples of discoveries by small time individuals.
But when it comes time to develop things like MRI,microsurgery equipment and the like,it is not being built in the back yard. And if it was,the individual scientist would never have the resources without investment to satisfy even the "government: regulations let alone build and market such devices. I guess I'll take my chances on modern medicine. You do what you like. It's our personal choice.
And I would feel safe to assume since more people come to the US for serious medical problems ,rather than leave here to go somewhere else,it's because of all the backwoods practitioners here.
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Its a myth perpetuated by the "industry" that people from all over the world come to America for health care (perhaps Kings, Queens and the like, cuz they can afford it) when in fact, many Americans are actually going to places like Singapore and India for heart surgeries (an acquaintance from our area had heart surgery in Thailand two years ago for 1/10Th the cost, including travel!!) and other major procedures that would've put them into bankruptcy if performed right here in the US.
Americans are still forced to buy many medications from Mexico (oh boy) or Canada because we refuse to take obscene profits out of the equation.
We've got several Canadian friends and NONE (as yet) wants to come here for medical care despite all the rhetoric. When they do come for visits, they make sure they are carrying some travel health Insurance. The biggest nightmare being that they might get sick or hurt while traveling the US and go home owing tens of thousands of dollars.
On the other hand, when I got sick and was hospitalized for three days in Canada a few years ago, my bill was under a thousand dollars and they gave me up to two years to pay it back with NO INTEREST or penalty added (and not ONE nasty phone call or letter). And I was treated like a King.
I don't know how we got on this topic (it wasn't me), but MY OPINION is that profiting off sick people should be illegal, like it is in MOST 'developed' Countries and the sooner we get there the better off we'll all be. Let the health care profiteers get real jobs in....health care, they already know the lingo :-D They can go from making obscene profit (by denying health care) to helping people instead, what a concept 8-)
Right now, unless you're a small business, 1.45% of your income goes to medicare (surprise, no wonder its in trouble), doubled if you own a business. I've been saying for years, that I'd gladly pay double or triple that to have medicare for EVERYONE, how bout you?? That sentiment scares the profiteers more than anything, ya know?
Fortunately (or not, depending on individual perspective) for me, as a disabled veteran, my medical needs will be taken care of (I think that's called socialism ;) an accepted practice for some, so far). But I'd give up VA health care in a heartbeat, in exchange for medicare for everyone :), but that's just me.
Talk about opening a can of worms, who started this????
thomas
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Its too profitable to "treat" illness. Not much profit at all in curing any (see cancer).
Bingo! Bingo! Bingo!
Even if all beeks in the world got together and hired a lobbiest, do you think we could compete with the profiteers? Really?
Absolutely not, you can't play a money game with big money.
The long term solution is to educate our young. You have to do that on their terms. Social media...
We are not going to revolt, only the young will.
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The biggest nightmare being that they might get sick or hurt while traveling the US and go home owing tens of thousands of dollars.
Most Americans feel the same way. Many people find their insurance policy doesn't cover them outside the US. If you don't get a rider you might be taking a chance.
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[The long term solution is to educate our young. You have to do that on their terms. Social media...
We are not going to revolt, only the young will.
So revolt is the only means to an end?
Tell that to the tea party. Amazingly, they organized, they educated, and for a bunch of middle aged people, brought about one of the largest political swings in history.
Yes, the "young" have been manipulated over the years and are great at showing up for some issue they don't fully understand. It makes for a fun filled day out on campus for the young, right before they get ready later that night to do beer bongs and puke in their mommy and daddy paid for tuition dorm rooms. Ok, that was for effect...even though somewhat true.
Reality is, they generally are far less enthusiastic about things once they start paying taxes and actually start working. But anyhow...I digress.
Why think that only the young can make a change? Go to an organic store, a organic Coop, the master gardeners convention, or anything else to show the demographics of those living the lifestyle of outside wall of corporate box stores. See who donate to foundations, who vote, and who are on the boards and committees all across the country. It's not 20 something year olds.
Now will the middle aged stand chanting for an issue they don't understand like the young crowd? Probably not. But they will support, fund, and be a vehicle for change for so many items both big and small. To relagate hope that nothing will happen in today's world without social media or the young, being the only hope for that change....is a defeatist mindset and benefits nobody.
I would think a better approach would be to educate the young, and not so young. Health, jobs, security, and every other issue is usually items that all either benefit, or suffer from.
I think it is so sad to hear anyone say "we can't do this" or "We can never make a change" or any other defeatist comment about trying to better the situation. It may take years, it may take more than one try, and it may never fully get to 100%, but little changes are better than asking for the world in one shot.
"Building a Sustainable Future, One Flower at a Time" may be a more appropriate slogan this year for National Honey Bee Day than most realize... :-D
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Talk about opening a can of worms, who started this?
perhaps someone uninformed? :evil:
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Yeah, perhaps you're right KathyP.
BjornBee: Do you want these petitions as I fill them up or all at once? I'm serious.
thomas
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Yeah, perhaps you're right KathyP.
BjornBee: Do you want these petitions as I fill them up or all at once? I'm serious.
thomas
thomas
That is up to you.
It would be nice to get some sent in.
I did get a couple emails that said folks had already mailed them.
But we got lots of time. And this is just starting.
We hope beekeepers just don't sign their own name then send it in.
We hope everyone takes it to work, the bee association meeting, etc.
Thank you for your willingness to support this effort. :)
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Tell that to the tea party. Amazingly, they organized, they educated, and for a bunch of middle aged people, brought about one of the largest political swings in history.
Are you for real?
The tea party put a cry baby at the head of congress who will produce nothing different than what we had. Same old crap.
Youth put a man in the white house who has African decent. That is a political swing.
A revolution means change. What we have now is useless and cannot change.
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Yes....Yes....revolt...revolution. The only means for change. The only thing to hang your hopes on. The only thing that you think makes a difference. And no matter the cause, the effort, or the angle.....it will never be enough as you will suggest it never is enough, not worthy, or compare it to something else while going in circle, round, and round, and round. It's about the only thing I got from you, but I do get it.
Really....I mean it.....I get it. :roll: One election is touted by you as a revolution of change, and the next is touted as nothing more than putting in one cry baby and then say nothing has changed. Nice comparison. Some actually may suggest with both elections, not much is changed. (except your brilliant observation and results of a "African" man getting elected) I certainly see how you got sucked in for change and somehow still think that Utopian society is being brought to you by the current administration. :lau:
Sorry.....I didn't see just youth putting a man in the white house. And I didn't see it as a "African" thing either. How sad to look at the past presidential election as nothing more than that.
And I don't see a petition as a revolution, a revolt, or think that will come about from such efforts. The changes I seek, favor, and support, come from the masses making individual choices, individual responsibility, and individual actions. While the petition may have an end result of meeting some person in Washington (Even of "African decent" as you like to refer to them), the efforts in getting to that end result is where the real benefits exist.
So you go back to thinking that the "Gov" will take care of you now that your "youth revolution" has happened, by putting a "African decent" person in the white house. I would ask "How's that working for you?" But I am sure you think everything is just fine and dandy. And besides....if you have any problems with anything...you can just use some social media and summon up the young crowd again. :roll:
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Youth put a man in the white house who has African decent. That is a political swing.
foolish youth (and others) who thought color of skin was more important than content of character. guess they were not listening.
A revolution means change
please list all the revolutions that ended with positive change for the general population. the question is worth 2 points.
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Take it to the Coffee House Kathyp :evil:
thomas
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valid suggestion if the comments were coming from me. i am only responding. perhaps you should make the suggestion to the originator and we all can go there?
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Yep,start a new topic in coffee house. I think this has went well beyond original topic.