AFB,weak queens, robbing AND swarming.

[Bennettoid]

carol ann;  I think the advice of your local beekeepers is the best that you can get. Listen to them, they are there.

I have to agree with the locals, i don't believe its AFB. There are other things that can cause brood to look like AFB. 1. PMS-Parasitic Mite Syndrone 2.Ants. 3. Hive over heated 4. Chemicals, Chemicals, Chemicals, Just to name a few.

You don't burn your equipment when you find varroa mites, Small hive beetles, ants, mice or whatever else that may get in your hive, which if untreated will have the same end result. Why burn because you found a cell or two of AFB?  When scorching equipment remember, any temp. that will melt wax will kill AFB spores   Charlie

I'm sorry, nothing personal, but she's already established that its AFB, and telling her not to burn is very irresponsible. Attitudes like that allows AFB to spread.

[carol ann]

Thanks again All,
My local beekeepers have been a spotty on this issue because I was not sure at the time I talked to them I had AFB. And actually many of these folks have never seen it.
BTW when you mention AFB, nobody wants to come around, Kinda like cancer.
I did the test.

My beekeeping Guru here is on the road and I hope to speak with him tomorrow.
I have only the photos to show him, as I had the bonfire and BURNED the wax with frames down to a nasty carcass.

Currently I am taking Brian's advice on the frames. I am going to disassemble the stuff tonight, get it completely scorched and set it up. My bees may not even have a chance to build enough to make it through winter anyway. I am taking this scorching as a temporary fix until I can give a new fandangled home.

I am planning on building some new equipment for next year. I do not want to be haunted by this, and really don't want to deal with again.

I am still curious that IF, big IF my bees make it through this if they will  have some immunity. Also still curious if the bees now that they have clean food they can carry it anymore.
Anyway,
Thank you Thank you

[Bennettoid]

From what I understand, they will always have the possibility of a reinfection, more so than other colonies, because one bee may have a spore still in her honey gut. It just may take awhile for the AFB to get stron enough for you to notice it again.

[carol ann]

Bennettoid,
Thank you that was the info I was looking for.
At least this time.
I am sure I will be hunting for something else soon.
Thanks
Carol Ann

[imabkpr]

bennettoid;You must have missed the point.  Did you look at the picture that carol ann posted? I did. I saw 2 cells of dead larva which maybe, just maybe could have been AFB infected. Regardless, AFB can be treated and controlled by antibioticswhich include terramycin, tylan and vinegar vapor.
Therefore it is a waste of money, time and good equipment to burn it.

Back in my early days of beekeeping and before terramycin was put on the market, yes burning infected colonies was the only means there was to keep AFB from spreading. I have seen AFB come from the most feared beekeepers problem to no problem at all. So I don't feel that I'm irresponsible let alone VERY irresponsible when i say don't burn your equipment. Charlie

[Kev]

Carol Ann,

first, I am so sorry this happened to you.

A note on terramycin: You might consider treating the bees you save at the switchover. If any of the bees have the bacterium in their gut, that would kill it. Then by getting rid of the honey, too, you eliminate the spores. You may be able to save some of your bees.

If you want to be certain about the diagnosis, Michael Bush is right, the Beltsville people will tell you. Their test is free. One of the dangers of feral hives is getting into AFB. We had another local guy get it that way.

Regarding scorching hives. I read an interesting article, which I'll see if an can post. The upshot is that if you put wood in an oven for 3hrs at 300 degrees F, you get really good disinfection. The problem with scorching is that it only goes so deep. The researchers who conducted this experiment reasoned that heating the whole hive body up for a few hours would be better. Now, for those who read this article, note, I'm aware that they didn't test it on actual hive bodies. (Unfortunately, no oven around my house is big enough.)

I'm sure different folks have different ways, but the NYState bee inspector stacked all the empty hive bodies up in a hollow column, doused them with about 16 ounces of kerosene and lit them and let them burn for probably 5 minutes. They were really scorched, charred even before he put them out.

Again, I am really sorry about that. You're doing the right thing by dealing with it though. The last thing you want is an AFB reservoir in your bee yard.

take care,
kev

[Kev]

Regardless, AFB can be treated and controlled by antibioticswhich include terramycin, tylan and vinegar vapor.
Therefore it is a waste of money, time and good equipment to burn it.

AFB doesn't go away, ever. Treatments only tamp it down and when you stop treating, it comes back. Also, treating with antibiotics breeds resistant bacteria. That's why MRSA (a resistant nasty in hospitals) is such a problem. So if I ever get it, I'm burning or trying to find a huge oven. Cause I don't have the money or the desire to continue to feed my bees antibiotics.

Here a link to an article about disinfection I just posted over in the posted article section http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11055.0

Also, I couldn't tell from your post if you gave the bees a place to regurgitate their honey so you could get rid of it too. That's important because if you let them keep it, they can feed to larvae and you're back to square one.

Keep us all posted and let us know if your bees pull through. We're rooting for you.

kev

[rdy-b]

 :'(     http://nmdaweb.nmsu.edu/laws-statutes/Bee%20Act.html/?searchterm=honey%20bees

[carol ann]

Thanks again,

Kev, the bees did have a frame for a day to expel in.
The frames they have now have no wax formation, just the plastic insert, so the only thing they can do is make brood comb.
There is no larvae to feed. They were all BBq yesterday. I am going to try and pick up two frames with some brood later in the week.
I did treat the bees while they were in the infected box. I can treat them again later in the week. I am planning on a spy on thursday. They have been messed with about every day, and the hornets are causing havoc too. Nothing like ornery bees, and a tired keeper.
I am feeding 1;1,(outside the hive, so the wasps can have some too, grrrr) I read somewhere thats the formula to push wax. I am going to read through the article you posted, and have it up now for reading. :)

imbabkpr, All the frames were in some kind of disaray, almost black, some developing wax moth,some partly melted, mouse damamge, no tight brood pattern, What did I miss...and very very few healthy cells. It was maybe a bad time of year to have to do this, but the frames needed to go by next year anyway.
I have learned TONS, and paid nothing but some brood frames and a little elbow grease. (so far) :)

rdy-b
I did contact the NM state apiary inspector today, and the retired NM state apiary inspector. Very interesting and somewhat conflicting conversations.

The current inspector said I have done all the right things. Claims the scorching does the trick.His comment on the bees, is they can carry the spores on their body for ???? He didn't know. He did not ask to come out and examine the hives and was very helpful. Referred me back to the former inspector, stating this man had done some research in this area.

Former inspector, as he had said to me before, believes genetics play a big part in this. Hygienic bees will clean the frames including the scale and keep the ABF under control.
The ABF is a natural spore that is in the environment, and the weak, or overwhelmed will develop the problems.
I am planning on purchasing a nuc from him next year. He does not treat his bees with antibiotics.
Interesting.

Thank you for all your help everyone.
I will keep you all updated.

[rdy-b]

honey expelled that is good the spores are also in the feces :-\ former inspector sounds like someone that has it in his own apiary keepers that dont have it sing  a different tune as i am sure you have noticed  it is somthing you dont need to learn how to live with  8-) RDY-B

[carol ann]

Interesting story on where my bees came from.

I spoke with a beekeeper in my state today that is raising her own breed, pick her brain. Thank goodness she was a good sport. Very informative and accommodating. Anyway.

As the conversation went, she told me she picked up the nucs from out of state, for the man I bought from. (Bee politics?)
As she was there picking up she found ALL the bkeeps in this area automatically treat.
So, it seems to live with AFB means automatic treatment.

I don't mean to get on the soapbox (again) but....most all our food is 'improved' with some kind of antibiotic. I have been trying to get away from this hence 'grow' my own sugar?
Whats the point if I have to treat the bees. How depressing.

I will continue to TRY,. and find hygienic bees for the next round.

BTW the girls gulped down a gallon of syrup today. Perhaps I should start an AFB fund to feed the girls...laughing.
Take care
Carol Ann

[carol ann]

At this point i am just documenting for anyone that can use this info. Thanks Everyone!

I opened up the honey supers that had been set aside, needless to say all the inerards have been burned. I have opted to save the wood frames, to scortch. ( like I have nothing better to do)  ;)

Here are some photos of what I believe to be live spore.




I had more photos but would not load, sorry

The girls, the hornets and straglers are in a feeding frenzy. I have been going through about a gallon and 1/2 of syrup a day so far.

I checked the girls we have a queen, and 1 brood frame with wax cells and a little honey stored, no eggs yet.
A frame a week, we might make it!

[Michael Bush]

That's just crystallized honey.  Spore is not big enough to be visible, but the scale is and it's black.  You only have a significant number of spores in BROOD comb that has had larvae die in it, not honey comb.  When larvae die in the comb, it usually has the black scale in the bottom of the cell.

pictures starting here of AFB:
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pest&disease/slide11.htm

Scale:
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pest&disease/slide13.htm

[Cindi]

Oooh, that is really ucky yucky looking stuff, now isn't it?  Haven't seen that in my hives ever, thank goodness, and I hope never to.  Have a wonderful day, great life.  Cindi

[Kev]

One helpful note about finding scale in the comb. Hold the frames so that you can look diagonally down toward the bottom of the frame. When the larvae die, the scale puddles up at the bottom of the cell and obscures the nice straight line where the cells join other cells you usually see at the bottom.

kev

[carol ann]

Thanks again,
don't fear all the crusty stuff, Thank you for the additional info.
carol ann