Opinions on the modified dadant aka jumbo.

[David McLeod]

Okay, I'm going to gear up to have some boxes in the yard after a 25 year beak. Back then I did as everyone else did and run double deep brood with shallows. We reversed early and piled on the shallows. If splits were wanted then one of the deeps got a bottom board and either requeened or given fresh brood. Times were so much simpler then ;). I never really cared for reversing as I always had a sneaking suspicion that it was more than a little disruptive to the brood nest, besides it was  royal PITA.
Well through the years I have tried to keep up with what others are saying and have really come to like some of the ideas of Walt Wright. He states that a single deep is sufficient with a shallow below for a pollen box but I wonder if the single deep alone is large enough, especially for the boomers.
Here's my thinking a modified dadant/jumbo brood box for ample room (I know they are heavy but without reversing it should be more or less stationary without the need to lift). Now with all that room the shallow below seems excessive so use a section super for a pollen box (I know I'm over complicating this but that's what I do). The pollen box, like the brood box, will be a stationary item so no need for it's frames to move or interchange (I will make all my own wooden ware so the interchangability issue is moot).
Now on to the supers, they need to be all the same size (for checkerboarding) but I have yet to determine shallow or medium. I'm leaning to medium as one medium should be sufficient for overwintering down here and a single shallow is cutting it to close and two shallows is possibly to much.

Opinions? 

[rdy-b]

  tell me more about the POLLEN BOX --RDY-B

[David McLeod]

I'm going to post a link as I can only paraphrase it but basically he makes the claim that the bees will store pollen on the lower portion of the brood comb (on natural free form comb, which I have observed myself while doing cutouts) this pollen store is a reserve for mid/late winter brood rearing prior to the maples coming in. He goes on to say that the functional break in the comb in our boxes often leads the brood nest to run all the way to the bottom bar leaving no room for a pollen reserve. His recommendation is to provide space for this reserve by running a shallow under the deep brood box and leaving it there. It also serves as a slatted rack at all seasons. His winter configuration is a shallow (pollen box) a single deep and two shallows (honey reserve).
Here are the links;
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/pollen-box-overwintering/
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/more-on-the-pollen-reserve/

[rdy-b]

  pollen reserve-one thing comes to mind is that bees wont move pollen like they move honey-winter cluster would be moving up away from the pollen box-most of my brood frames have a pollen RING around 2/3 of the frame-I can understand what you are saying--but there is so much going on at any given time of the year bees moving up or down--drones being reared--the bees will store on the outside frames and leave it or use it depending on there location in the brood nest-I suppose it is really just a extension of the brood nest appropriate for certain times of the year when bees become Honey bound-RDY-B

[tecumseh]

David writes:
I wonder if the single deep alone is large enough, especially for the boomers.

tecumseh:
I am not certain is single deep here refers to langstroth or jumbos???

as far as a langstroth hive....I would say no it is not.  A single deep (with an excluder) will work as total brooding area for the average queen.

pollen box???? never heard the term.

light (or the lack there of) is more important in whether a queen lays right down to the bottom board. 

as far as my own experience pollen is stored at edges of the brood area.  the brood area is more circular than any other shape so the idea that pollen in stored below the brood nest is not exactly correct.

[David McLeod]

Well as I said it's been awhile since I kept them in boxes so I'm looking for the latest greatest so to speak. The jumbo sure looks more like natural comb (uninterupted) than any of the other sizes. I can already see at least one downside. Splits and queen rearing would be easier done in standard deep sized nucs, though I am at least a season or two away from that. With me doing cutouts and swarm removal all the while wanting to keep a limit on the number of boxes I have I also need to consider being able to move excess bees on standard sized equipment. A conundrum I guess.
I guess in theory what I desire would be to house my select colonies in an "ideal" configuration and if any excess colonies arise due to my business of wildlife removal to house those in a way that offers ease of marketing (costs plus ideally or at cost otherwise)  them to other beeks.
In principle my goals are to remove ferals/escapees that would otherwise be killed off and to house them in as a "natural" state as possible within the constraints of the langstroth system to allow them to be able to continue the "natural" survive or die experiment as they would have in the original site. Basically, no treatments or foundation just live or die beekeeping and if they survive and I can draw off a surplus then so much the better. Pretty much as low impact as I can and let the bees work out their own survival as IMO this is the only long term possible solution to what ails them. Lord knows the chemical companies have yet to find a solution.

[David McLeod]

David writes:
I wonder if the single deep alone is large enough, especially for the boomers.

tecumseh:
I am not certain is single deep here refers to langstroth or jumbos???

as far as a langstroth hive....I would say no it is not.  a single deep (with an excluder) will work as total brooding area for the average queen.

pollen box???? never heard the term.

light (or the lack there of) is more important in whether a queen lays right down to the bottom board. 

as far as my own experience pollen is stored at edges of the brood area.  the brood area is more circular than any other shape so the idea that pollen in stored below the brood nest is not exactly correct.

When I refer to deep I mean the langstroth deep 9 1/8". I will use the term jumbo or modified dadant for the 11 1/4" box.
So if you say that a single deep is not enough (especially with an excluder) then the jumbo is better??? BTW I have no intention of running excluders so other than the functional break of comb the queen would be unrestricted from moving the brood nest up as needed. Also I plan to do foundationless throughout and use only feral stock collected from cutouts so small cell should be the norm for more cells per frame.

The pollen box is an unknown concept for me as I have been out of the game for awhile and was unheard of when I was. I base it entirely upon the writings of Walt Wright which seem to be reasonable to this old beek. Even if it is entirely false in it's application for the pollen reserve at least it would function as a slat rack (another reason to drop down to a section super height box) and this should acheive your goal of brood all the way to the bottom bar (less light). Is this reasonable or am I tilting at windmills?

[Michael Bush]

If I were not running all mediums, one Dadant deep on the bottom would be my second choice.  I might build it twice as wide as an eight frame box and pile two side by side stacks of eight frame supers or just use an eight frame dadant deep and pile on the eight frame supers.  I think 9 1/4" is tough because it makes it hard for the queen to decide what to do.  With Dadant deeps she stays on the big combs.  With the mediums she moves up and down.  With the deep she has to decide.

http://bushfarms.com/beesdecisions.htm

[tecumseh]

in most of all the southern US in which I have kept bees a langstroth story and half is an excellent combination.  in some of the older literature the bottom box (typically a deep) was 'the brood chamber' and the upper illinois depth box was 'the food chamber'.  a good heavy bottom plus a well provision 'food chamber' would get you thru most winters in the south till the hive starting brooding up in the spring.

in your case which sounds to me to be more removal directed I would thing shallow depth and deeps would be a good route if you were trying to salvage existing comb.  jumbo depth frames might be a bit too much if you were trying to use that depth for salvaging existing comb.

it has been a long time since I have even seen a jumbo depth hives (maybe 1985 or so) but I do think most folks used excluders on those monsters.

just my two denaro...   

[David McLeod]

Well the jumbos would be a bit much for cut outs and trap outs. My question was more directed to what should I move these "free bees" into once I get them to the house. Cut out equipment I am still in a quandry as to whether I should keep some standard deeps on hand for that (it would be easier to move the excess free bees on to other homes if I got them established on standard equipment) or maybe I should settle on mediums since it would be a decent compromise between portable equipment for cut outs/trapouts and would interchange with the honey supers back in the yard.
Well here's what I think I'll do. Plan on mainly deeps and mediums but make up a couple or so jumbos for the keepers that I want and see how it pans out.

[rdy-b]

  start them out in 5 frame cardboard nucs -easy to have plenty on hand -one flaw with the jumbo idea is i think you said you where going with foundation-less frames-i have never heard a success story with that large of frame-sounds like a lot of extra work--RDY-B

[David McLeod]

I had thought about the carboard nucs. The ones from brushy mountain look good but I wondered about durability as cardboard nucs were not something I was familiar with (not even the wooden nucs either) back then. I was looking at them as a cheaper way to send them to a new home without having replace woodenware or ask for deposits kind of thing. If I had to hold them for awhile in the yard are they weather resistant enough?

[rdy-b]

  I get the ones from mannlake they are a litel diferant-they last 1 maybe 2 seasons RDY-B
 another option thats easy on the wallet-I have made these and they are great
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,27006.0.html

[David McLeod]

Okay, cool then. I guess it's cardboard nucs then added to the inventory list. Thanks, that will help with swarms, I can carry a lighter load on the truck then.

[tecumseh]

the carboard boxes are light and very bee tight.  for me it make shipping and or hauling around in the truck a bit easier on the mind.

I don't do many removals now... generally I pass them along to folks who don't mind asking for pay to do the removals.  After discussing the plus and minus with a number of new beekeepers that do removals I have decided that with the arrival of the shb that a vacume device and new frames and foundation is a cleaner/better route. 

just my two cents...