Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => HONEYBEE REMOVAL => Topic started by: beecanbee on September 02, 2009, 04:18:32 pm

Title: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: beecanbee on September 02, 2009, 04:18:32 pm
With mellifera, can you tell if a queen is in the swarm by the looks of the clump?  With cerana, if the swarm is roughly symmetrical in shape and teardrop in appearance, you have a queen.  If there is no queen, the swarm will be oddly shaped, possibly elongated, or with ribs, etc.  Does swarm shape tell you anything about a mellifera swarm?
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: David LaFerney on September 02, 2009, 09:57:12 pm
With mellifera, can you tell if a queen is in the swarm by the looks of the clump?  With cerana, if the swarm is roughly symmetrical in shape and teardrop in appearance, you have a queen.  If there is no queen, the swarm will be oddly shaped, possibly elongated, or with ribs, etc.  Does swarm shape tell you anything about a mellifera swarm?

Why would they swarm without a queen?  To reduce the population of the parent hive by commiting mass suicide?
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: Kathyp on September 02, 2009, 10:09:30 pm
i don't know that i have ever found one without a queen, but i sure have found them with virgin queens, and they don't always make it.  i have found that those swarms with virgins have a much higher number of drones with them. 
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: beecanbee on September 03, 2009, 03:10:03 am
Why would they swarm without a queen? 

Cerana frequently abscond without the queen.  If the queen died and wax moths took over - they abscond and gather into what may look like a swarm, but an ill-shapen one and of no value.  If I upset them thru inspection or harvesting they may swarm (with the queen, along with nurse bees staying behind) - but the clump will be ill-shapen.  However, if it is nicely shaped - I must try to recapture them, since it contains the queen.  If ill-shapen, I don't bother.

The question.... with mellifera can you tell anything about the queen from the appearance of the swarm?
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: beecanbee on September 03, 2009, 03:30:04 am
i don't know that i have ever found one without a queen

Maybe this is the answer to my question... if mellifera generally do not abscond... Maybe any swarm you come across can be assumed to be queen-right?
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: bee-nuts on September 03, 2009, 03:49:21 am
It sounds to me like two different behavior patterns from two different races of bee.  As far as I know millifeera will not swarm/abscond because they are queenless.  They will abscond if conditions are poor, but I dont think they will without a queen.  A hive does sound different when queen-less though.

Maybe someone else knows different.  
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: bee-nuts on September 03, 2009, 03:53:54 am
beecanbee

How do you house your bees?  Do you use langstroth or similar hives or something completely different.
Title: Re: swarm shape - queen right?
Post by: beecanbee on September 03, 2009, 05:06:19 am
beecanbee

How do you house your bees?  Do you use langstroth or similar hives or something completely different.

I am using Langs for the mellifera - but upright boxes (known as AYs) for the cerana.  The AY is like a Lang brood box stood on its side - that is, tall and narrow, ten frame.

I have not yet encountered a mellifera swarm - hence my questions, as I was basing it against my experience with cerana.  I think as bee-nuts said - two different behaviour patters.  Hence I am unlikely to encounter a queenless mellifera swarm (but do so regularly with cerana).