Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => TOP BAR HIVES - WARRE HIVES - LONG HIVES => Topic started by: Anny on December 03, 2008, 02:38:58 pm
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I'm new, I am bubbling around the idea of a hive this spring. I like the idea of a topbar hive since it's easier on the bees and such, I was just wondering what some of the pros and Cons are of the top bar. And would you recommend a Top Bar for a beginner bee keeper? (I've never kept bees before AT ALL)
Any suggestion and advice would be amazing. Thanks.
Also where can you buy pre-made top bar hives?
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I'm not the best one to answer this question because I've not had any experience with a TBH.
I think, for the future, I'll be building a TBH, a variation of the Warre hive, and a round hive of my own design just to gain experience in those areas.
One caution, the TBHs you can't go flipping the frame around like you can in a langstroth hive, Like a foundationless frame the wax comb will bend until cured. So until the comb is drawn to near the bottom of the hive and at least a month old, inspecting the frames requires holding the top bar of the frame at or above eye level and turning the frame to view bot sides.
Nothing is more disheartening than watching the comb fall out/off the top bar from mishandling green comb.
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Well, I have not heard from anyone yet on the pros and cons they have found on a topbar hive, but in my research I've found a few myself and I thought I'd post them here in case anyone else was interesting, and so I have a place to check back onto myself.
Pros of a Topbar beehive:
* Facilitate natural beekeeping. Bees build the broodnest their way.
* Disturbed bees move away from the beekeeper.
* Less colony disturbance with minimal beekeeper exposure.
* No heavy, repetitive lifting.
* Inexpensive. Cost $30 versus $200 for a standard hive.
* Produce the highest quality honey and wax.
* No extracting equipment needed.
* Self contained. No additional storage space required.
* Facilitate comb rotation.
* Easy to build.
* An ideal educational hive.
* An ideal urban beehive.
* Won't break apart when dropped.
* Weather tight.
* Low center of gravity. Won't tip over.
* Adaptable to local building materials, conditions, needs.
* More beeswax – Crushing of honey combs to extract honey produces more beeswax than any other method.
* Can't buy them. Must build them. (Althought I have found a few you can buy...)
* Few local mentors.
* Produce less honey on a per hive basis.
* Can't be disassembled to reduce weight.
* Not compatible with standard equipment.
* No standardization.
* Comb is fragile.
* Take longer to work.
* Hives must be level.
* Not suitable for large scale, migratory, feed lot beekeeping.
* Zero resale value.
I'll keep looking around for more info but if anyone thinks of good things to add please do, I have no idea what I'm doing really just researching.
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* Facilitate natural beekeeping. Bees build the broodnest their way.
Ummmm...does anyone really think that making a box for bees is the 'natural' way, regardless of the type of box? Plus, the bees are still being 'guided' as to where to build the comb, so they are really not building it 'their way'.
* Inexpensive. Cost $30 versus $200 for a standard hive
I just built 3 TBHs and the cost of the wood was about $40/hive. But that was buying for 3 hives. If you build just one, expect to pay a bit more. Plus, the labor that went into it. It took me about 4 whole days to build the first two. But I didn't have all the tools. Once I had all the tools, it took me one long day to build the third. I used the BackYardHive plans from their website. I by no means am handy with tools.
* No extracting equipment needed.
Not the traditional kind anyway. You will still need to crush and strain which requires some equipment, although it can be pots and pans if you wish. The crush and strain is very messy as well.
* No extracting equipment needed.
Depends on construction
* An ideal educational hive.
Oh ya! I built a window in my hives. Really neat! Can't wait to use them in the spring.
* Weather tight
Again, depends on construction. Could be a problem in winter when you do require ventilation.
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Hi Anny,
I'm in the same boat you are. You look like you've been doing your research. One thing I'd add as a Pro is flexibility. The TBH's can easily (especially the Tanzanian) be built to accommodate standard frames. I'm building mine as we speak with dimensions to fit a 9 1/8" Langstroth type frame in case I buy some nucs or inherit or buy someone elses classic deep hives.
What got me started was I bought an old abandoned farm where the bees had set up housekeeping between the floor joists. What they built is basically a TBH without researching these forums (LOL)!
Steve
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I think the question about pros and cons was pretty well answered, but I would like to add that since you are working a hive without pre-made foundation, the bees can build their cells the size that they want, and you can help them regress to 4.9mm or even smaller cell size, which results in a slightly shorter development time for the larvae. This means that the varroa mite does not have as much time to reproduce in the capped cells. Small cell hives tend to be much healthier than large cell hives if left unmedicated.
justgojumpit
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>>* Facilitate natural beekeeping. Bees build the broodnest their way.
>Ummmm...does anyone really think that making a box for bees is the 'natural' way, regardless of the type of box? Plus, the bees are still being 'guided' as to where to build the comb, so they are really not building it 'their way'.
But not guided on what size cell to build. So they will build comb their way.
>>* Inexpensive. Cost $30 versus $200 for a standard hive
>I just built 3 TBHs and the cost of the wood was about $40/hive.
But if you scrounge lumber from a construction site you could probably build it for free.
>>* No extracting equipment needed.
>The crush and strain is very messy as well.
As is extraction.
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>>* Facilitate natural beekeeping. Bees build the broodnest their way.
>Ummmm...does anyone really think that making a box for bees is the 'natural' way, regardless of the type of box? Plus, the bees are still being 'guided' as to where to build the comb, so they are really not building it 'their way'.
But not guided on what size cell to build. So they will build comb their way.
Tautz mentions that honeybees substantially the same as today's have been around 30-odd million years. This monkey man would never presume to tell a Bien how to build its comb; I think they've got it down by now, and don't need the "help" of embossed foundation -- I know I don't need the expense & bother.
That said, the Warré topbar with a little wax prompt is cheap, easy, and an effective compromise that discourages wavy comb which makes the state inspector raise his eyebrows.
>>* Inexpensive. Cost $30 versus $200 for a standard hive
>I just built 3 TBHs and the cost of the wood was about $40/hive.
But if you scrounge lumber from a construction site you could probably build it for free.
The initial capital expenditure for my Warré building was pretty high starting from scratch, but the per-hive cost is low. The greatest challenge was building with lower-grade cupped lumber that could have used a good planing, something I have no budget for at present.
>>* No extracting equipment needed.
>The crush and strain is very messy as well.
As is extraction.
I''ve found some cider or wine presses that might work off the shelf for small-scale work. Some have claimed (sorry, no URLs -- ban for this forum newbee is not lifted yet) that honey that has been flung against the side of a rotary extractor is inferior to that that has been crush 'n' strained.
But with a Warré we're not concerned with reusing comb -- something to think about with disease & wax contamination. Whack comb off the topbars, slap the 'bars back in place, redeploy box almost immediately by subbing ("under-supering"). No frames, no foundation ($$), no decappers (just a knife to cut out brood & pollen -- if desired) no fancy high-speed extractors.
Downside is that with Warrés it's presently DIY with higher capital costs because nobody makes optimized honeycomb crusher-extractors, and precious few offer Warrés off the shelf. Sure, a carpenter might be convinced to make a hive set, but one I RFQed wanted $300 in qty 12, and that was unfinished with butt-jointed fab; not a long-life hive compared to fingerjointed Langs et al.
So I made my own, adapted to US measures & lumber from the metric proto plans available online. Fingerjointed, sealed & traditionally finished w/ linseed-pinetar, nonmagnetic fasteners to avoid field gradients that disrupt comb orientation & navigation... been fun & totally different so far. Can't wait till this spring!
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I have a year of TTBH under my belt. We had nine standard hives when I was a kid. It's not the perfect comparrison as my dad did the work when I was a kid. But, my dad helped me this year (since he still loves bees) and these are also his thoughts.
I built my TBHs to take medium frames. I did this so I could install a nuc. I liked the idea of getting a nuc but ended up not likely frames in the TBH. I ended up cutting the wax out and tying it to bars until the bees connected it.
Pros
- It is really nice to be able to take the top off and still have the bees totally sealed inside the hive. The only bees that can immediately get out are the ones right at the top bar I lift out. When they are angry this makes management of the situation much easier.
- I like it that all of my frames are accessible at one time. No lifting supers or moving things to get to what I want to see.
- I want to make things out of my beeswax and this method harvests the wax with the honey. Two birds with one stone.
- I want to do more natural beekeeping and it seems easier to do that with a TBH. I guess it doesn't have to be but most of the others with the 'natural' philosophy feel the same way.
- Last, but not least, this style of beekeeping suits me. It feels more natural. This isn't a scientific reason but it's still legitimate. I have more enjoyment out of this style of beekeeping.
Cons
- The biggest so far is that the two main beekeepers with major experience I have spoken with told me I was crazy and that the TBH wouldn't work. Neither had ever seen one but were still convinced. I don't care if they want to use one or not but it's hard to talk about what's going on with the hives when no one will even listen. Luckily I pursue what I want to pursue and don't worry much about if it's the 'in' thing.
- Probably not as much honey. I don't have enough data yet but I can see how that could be. It's not going to be substantially less especially since these hives are just for my use.
- No standard equipment could be a con for some people. I do wish I could buy more things for the hive sometimes but overall I like making my own stuff so it's not a huge deal.
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Anny, that's a good list. You've got a few more pros & cons than what I compiled for myself before deciding to start with a KTBH next year.
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Anny,
The perfect hive for you is the one you have fun with :lol: Which ever way you go in your first year you will have some fun and be hooked for life. Beware.....
Bees are a blast, leap in, have some fun and keep everyone at Beemaster in the loop.
SH
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I'm new, I am bubbling around the idea of a hive this spring. I like the idea of a topbar hive since it's easier on the bees and such, I was just wondering what some of the pros and Cons are of the top bar. And would you recommend a Top Bar for a beginner bee keeper? (I've never kept bees before AT ALL)
Any suggestion and advice would be amazing. Thanks.
Also where can you buy pre-made top bar hives?
I have not myself seen any pre made top bar hives except for one website (bear with me as I will have to go and find it), but they were so, so expensive that is why I never ordered one. Still the concept really appealed to me also. Perhaps one day I will try one.
I also think there is a forum just for tbh somewhere. I will also try to find that as well.
Good Luck
Annette
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This is an old thread, 4 months ago was the last time she was on this forum.
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Wow, you are correct. I wonder why I answered this one. It came up somewhere where I thought it was new and never checked the date.
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Nat: I'm glad it was started again. I hate going back and looking thru the arc's. I serf this thing at least once a day and twice a day if time permits. I'm glade to see items brought back up. What makes me mad is when I go to items on a site that haven't been updated in a year or more. Seems to me a moderator would archive that stuff. Just my humble opinion tho. But now I'm off my box, looking forward to packages coming this week and 3 more later on. Going to do my first split here in NC Texas after this cold snap this week.
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Yeah it is good to revive some of the older threads, maybe even especially at this time of year when everyone is getting their bees.
I just didn't want Annette to go crazy looking for the information she mentioned if the person wasn't here anymore.
You sound excited for your bees to be coming, I think we all are.
Enjoy them and have fun.
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I incline to the position of Slaphead, # 10
I don’t see any negative sites of my hives and that is why I have those kenyans, not langsthrots, and enjoy them. I have what I want. Bees seems to be happy too because they don’t sting me. Well, sometimes some disoriented bees don’t recognize me but it happen rarely and these are probably youngsters so there is my full forgiveness. When I irritate them too much in the nest, sometimes, I like their defensive reaction because I know that bees are not so degenerated as so called temporary homo sapiens by a mass media and completely defenseless against “global agressors”
Wojtek
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I'm glad this thread was revived as well. I am exactly where the founder of this thread was...I'm just running late. I've spent the past year or so getting into bees, showing videos to my students, lots of reading, and intro class, etc. I really want to start this year, but realize that the time is running short. Many of the suppliers are out of bees for the season (!!). Now, into the mix comes this whole other world of the TBH/Warre style of beekeeping, which totally appeals to me for the reasons others have mentioned. Eventually, my goal is to gain some experience on my own so that I can approach my principal to pitch getting bees on the roof of our school (an urban school with no good outdoor space where hives could be located). So now the timing issue is also there. I'm pretty handy with power tools, so I think I could build one of these relatively quickly. Maybe I should just order the bees (assuming I can still find some), which would force me to burn the midnight oil building the TBH.
Steven
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If you are serious about getting bees this year you better get crackin.
TBH are easy to build, the bars are more complicated than the hives.
I would start looking for bees right now, most of us ordered them back in February and there appears to be a shortage in some parts of the country right now, from what I am hearing local beeks can't get enough packages.
I think its a great idea to educate kids about bees and the issues surrounding them but I would be surprised if a school allows bees (unless its an agricultural school) when there are kids who could die from a bee sting.
My son can't even eat a peanut butter cookie or anything that contains any peanuts at snack time because of another child's allergies.
Good luck with your endeavor, I hope you can pull it all together and get to keep bees this year.
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But now I'm off my box, looking forward to packages coming this week and 3 more later on. Going to do my first split here in NC Texas after this cold snap this week.
Is this anywhere near Abilene?? Thats where I am from.
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I too like that this thread got revived I am researching a tbh and like archiving things.
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Add my 2 cents:
Pro - Easy to assess hive strength. Especiall if using screened bottom.
Con - poor for cutouts. Traveling with clipped on combs and no propolis lets the bars slide off.
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Can anyone chime in on this who has actually raised them in KTBH's for several winters, where the hives have survived? They obviously are easier to build and less complicated, but are they really much different from going foundationless in a Langstroth? Any suggested refinements to the typical plan if you have 0-30 degree winter months? I've gotta admit...I am tempted to try it just to see how it works, but I also want to give my bees the best chance of surviving through winter...(I have two traditional hives, but this is just a continuation of my bee obsession..something new and different :shock:)
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I would love to hear an answer on TBHs in cold climates, too. I'm in WI, where we can easily get sub-zero weather for a week or 2 at a time.
Pros so far for me: Very buildable. We followed plans, but I'm starting to see a person could quickly and cheaply build one of these from nearly anything!
Observation windows are wonderful. We have a trail worn out only 11 days later from our house to hives. Every family and friend who steps in our yard is dragged out to the hives to see what's up with the girls. Plus, I can't imagine having the patience to only get to watch what's going on every couple weeks!
Cheap. Even with free hive bodies, the frames and foundation alone start to add up.
Easy. I just pop off the lid to fill the feeder jar or mess with the bars. No stacks of heavy supers to lift around.
Cons: Nobody knows what on earth I'm talking about, no matter how long they have been beekeeping.
I have to try to convert information in books and online to my type of hive.
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Luvin Honey...I'm with you...the best thing I did was put the hives right in my back yard, instead of hiding them behind my barn like I was thinking about. Everyone wants to see them...and they have required more feeding and monitoring syrup than I would have thought...so they are best kept in a convenient place.
But I can't tell if the whole top bar thing is a cult concept, or actually practical. Since the bees are the most expensive part of the project, I have their interests at heart. You hate to bee "penny wise and pound foolish." Easy is not always best, and foundationless frames seems to provide the same natural cell size...if that is the issue. I know Newbees love the TBH concept...are there any Oldbee TBH'ers who actually have seen measurable advantages (and quit standard equip)...or is ease of building the main thing?
One cool thing about TBH's is the observation window some have. I know it's been done, but I'm thinking about adding a observation hatch/window to one of my hive bodies to show people the activity without disturbing the girls.
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I have heard not to get tbhs for the fact of cleanlyness and ths came from a beek of45 years so I'm really confused now
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What is he talking about with the cleanliness? Why would a topbar hive be any less clean than a lang?
Its simply a longer hive with natural comb.
I would actually think its cleaner since you crush and strain the combs and they constantly build new ones to replace them so you don't have combs that are old, black and ancient in your hives.
You never have to worry about chemicals in your foundation and virtually anyone of your new honey combs can be eaten as Pure comb honey on a whim.
If you want to be able to clean the bottom then put a trap door in as your bottom and open it to dump out debris.
Some people put in screened bottoms but I like the simplicity of the very basic tbh hives.
I have both langs and top bar hives and they both offer different learning experiences but I would not say one is cleaner than the other.
Here are a couple of reasons why I like tbh beekeeping in addition to my langs.
I really LOVE not breaking down the hives every time I want to do an inspection on my tbh.
I do not have to move or pry every super apart to get to the brood boxes.
I am not taking the entire "roof" off of the bees home and getting their ire up each time I want to inspect something.
Even if I have done my inspection on the lang but there is an errant comb I want to follow up on in a couple of days I have to take the roof off their house and maybe move several boxes to get to the one frame I want to check.
With my tbhs I can remember which number bar it is I want to check at my next visit and just pull that one out to check it.
All the other bars make up the roof of the hive so you aren't exposing the entire hive during an inspection.
You check one bar at a time and most of the bees go about their business undisturbed, I keep a follower to open up the hive more and more for them as they grow or to decrease it when necessary.
While I like my langs, the tbh hives I have are just a nice break to work the bees without so much... work.
For the person that asked about if there is really much difference in a thb than going foundationless in a lang.
Here is my take on it, keep in mind this is just my opinion and not everyone will feel the same way.
I have several langs that are all foundationless as well as a couple of tbh and the only real differences I can see myself are these:
I do not have to take the hive apart every time I want to check something.
For example, to check a brood frame in a lang it may would require me to move honey supers and maybe one or two other brood boxes depending on how many I have filled.
In a tbh I remove the outer cover and since the inner cover is made up of the topbars I can take out one frame at a time to inspect what I want to look at in the brood area of the hive.
I do not have to lift heavy boxes to get to it and I do not have to expose the whole colony to do so either.
No heavy lifting means easy on the back.
I do not need any equipment outside of the hive and bars itself and a feeder, thus making it much cheaper to operate and easier to maintain.
I never have to compile a stock of equipment, parts etc.
I find for myself that this type of hive is more conducive to teaching my kids and others about the bees.
I don't always want my kids around when I am going through a lang hive but with the tbh I can take out one frame at a time and discuss what is happening on each frame without so many bees in the air.
People also seem less nervous about getting up close to the bees in this situation as well since I am not exposing them to open boxes of bees. While obviously it does not mean there is no risk of them getting stung, it just seems less overwhelming to them.
I also feel like I can check on them more often without setting them back as much as I do when I take apart a lang to check on them.
When I installed new bees in my langs on foundationless frames I had to check them fairly often in the beginning to make sure they were not building crazy comb that would have been a mess to deal with later.
I would go in every couple of days to remove or maniuplate any combs that were not straight until they had several frames in each box built straight and I could let them go longer in between inspections.
Even though I wasn't doing a full inspection each time I was still disrupting the colony just by pulling a box off.
In a tbh I can just pull out a couple of combs and take a peek into the area of the hive where they are working and not be as invasive and set them back as much as I do in the lang.
Once the brood comb in the lang is all built out I don't have to bother them so much, but in the beginning I have to bother them more than I want to so that I can stay on top of their comb building.
Now this is because I am doing foundationless and I realize if I were to use foundation I would not have to monitor them as much in the beginning.
However, I feel its worth it to be able to let them build natural comb.
As far as the question of overwintering them. This is my first year so I have not attempted to overwinter them but I do know a few people that have in my area and New England can get some bitter cold winters.
One thing that some people feel is a disadvantage to tbh or foundationless frames is that you cannot use an extractor but need to do the crush and strain method.
I have heard that if you let them get hardended enough or use wire to reinforce them that you can extract foundationless, it just doesn't appeal to me anyway.
I don't have the expense of having to buy an extractor, needing a place to store it or the hassle of borrowing one from the bee club and sitting in the basement of the bee association building for hours extracting honey frames.
So for me having to use the crush and strain method is not a disadvantage, as I prefer it anyway and can use or sell the extra wax, but what some people may consider cons your may consider pros.
As far as placing the hives near the house, I completely agree.
Mine are in my yard and I can see all of them from my kitchen and pantry windows.
They are close enough that I can see the bees going in and out of the hive.
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But I can't tell if the whole top bar thing is a cult concept, or actually practical. Since the bees are the most expensive part of the project, I have their interests at heart. You hate to bee "penny wise and pound foolish." Easy is not always best, and foundationless frames seems to provide the same natural cell size...if that is the issue. I know Newbees love the TBH concept...are there any Oldbee TBH'ers who actually have seen measurable advantages (and quit standard equip)...or is ease of building the main thing?
I tend to get a little cynical about this sort of thing. I know what you mean about easy not always being best, but I also notice that often what is promoted most is what puts money in someone else's pocket. The Langstroths are the only commercially made hives right now...
I just wonder if top bars might take the path that organic food has. It was the way it used to be done, then we had commercial agribusiness, and now organic is coming back somewhat and seen as the new-fangled thing.
Organic food and top bars don't make businesses much money. Just a thought...
Cell size is one part of it. Low cost, ease of building and manipulating hive, and industrial chemical-free hives are a few things that had me perking up and paying attention.
I have VERY little experience, so this is just my opinion. It would be quite interesting to see who has been doing top bars the longest. So far, it has been fascinating to watch the girls pound out the wax, pollen and nectar!
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Wow Natalie you are getting me interested again in perhaps trying out a TBH at some point. I had heard the bees swarm more readily in TBH, so I am asking you if this is true??
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Natalie. It was my pleasure to read your post. This is what I have been doing and enjoying for 4 years, this will be the fifth, except I am not doing anything with langs. (KTBH only. )Well, not quite the fifth because two weeks ago I had to remove my bees from my backyard (city ordinance).
This means the end of my beekeeping at least in the form as I like it.
Similarly as you I had 2 hives and two nucs a few feet from the door of attached garage other are no farther then 50 feet from back door, and back windows. One of hive by the door of garage was very frequently used as a table for some small manual works. There was no incident of stinging anybody, except me, but it is different story.
All hives are with widows and a lot of persons were able to see bees from very close distance. (initially with fear, initially only.
I don’t use smoke, veil very rarely. Certainly no any chemicals and no bothering with counting varroas
Cleanness? I which this guy to have his home as clean as bees keep their home.
Regarding honey harvesting, it is as clean as someone do it. I developed specific way of honey extraction (required some work) but it is efficient, fast (except filtration), clean. No any honey on hands or anything except a knife to cut combs off from bars.
Over wintering? I think but only on a base of these 4 years that there are surprises. Bee families installed late, and so small that according bee literature didn’t have a chance to survive the winter survived, and other almost sure to survive, didn’t. One of a things but the most surprising, - it astonished me when I saw how little honey bee family needs to survive a winter. It is absolutely not what I found in beekeeping literature.
Certainly just 4 years is not a foundation to do any generalization, especially when experimenting with different sizes of hives, but these 4 years was enough to convince me that this is a kind of beekeeping I like and I want.
This is truth that TBH needs relatively frequent attention. especially after installation of a new family and during intense activities of bees. Some regards this as a negative thing. For me it is something positive because it is my pleasure.
The only bad thing is that city controller cut it completely off as something against ordinance of the Village of Norridge IL. Wee can only keep here cats and dogs.
Wojciech Wlazlinski
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Thanks for the insightful response Natalie...I am definately interested in giving it a try...I think I will start building one tomorrow and find out for myself how it works in this area over the winter..:roll:
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Annette,
it is true that bees in a tbh have to be monitored more closely for room so they don't get crowded and swarm.
In a lang you can just add on supers pretty much until the honey season is over but in a tbh you need to pull out bars of honey to make room in the hive if it starts to get crowded, or if the brood nest is congested you can just slip an empty bar into the middle to open it up.
All bees want to swarm anyway no matter what hive they are in, you just have to pay a little more attention to the space in a topbar hive.
Its really not hard at all and your bees are located close enough to your house and you check your girls fairly often I don't think you would have a problem with it.
You stay on top of things as it is.
Knowing how interested you are in the workings of a hive and how you lalso ike to observe your girls I think you would enjoy having a tbh.
I like that if you need room and they have enough honey you just pull out a bar and cut off the comb and stick the bar back in.
Comb honey for desert after dinner!
I was told to leave one comb of honey for every comb that the bees cover and you should be good. I figure I will take some but leave them most of it this year and see how they do.
I can always take it in the spring when they don't need it anymore.
I have read that some tbh keepers are leaving all the honey in the hive until spring and then doing their harvest, opposite of when we do it in the langs.
Wojtek,
thank you for your kind words. I do wish you were able to keep your bees at your house.
You have alot of insight into this method of beekeeping and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.
Beekeeping is good of the soul isn't it?
Hethens,
its worth a try. You don't invest alot of money in building these hives so if its not for you then you won't feel like you wasted money on it.
Its a different way of doing something for us but there are people in other countries who have only ever done this method of beekeeping and are quite successful.
I feel more involved in the hives that are living in the tbh as I am able to observe more.
As far as winters, people have been losing record numbers of hives over the past couple of winters in langs so my feeling is that it doesn't really matter what type of hive the bees are in.
There is no guarantee that the same colony that dies out in a tbh would have lived if it were in a lang.
I don't think tbh keeping is a cult or fad, its just that you don't hear about it from all angles like you do with langs.
Langs are a standardized hive that can be mass produced and marketed.
You need alot of different components to make up one complete hive and all of those components will eventually need to be replaced or increased.
You will need to order some more frames,a few more supers etc.
Suppliers can count on you coming back again and again to order more parts.
If they were to produce a topbar hive you would be done with them forever.
There aren't any parts to a tbh, its the body and the bars.
The one company that I have seen offering topbar hives are charging a ridiculous $400.00 for them.
Why? Because its their only chance to make the money off of that hive.
I think thats the reason there is no promotion of these hives.
Its not that the hives don't function well but suppliers could not justify what they would have to charge in order to make it worth their while to produce this type of hive.
To address your question of an experienced beek (I don't say old beek only because my feeling is that just because they have been doing it along time doesn't necessarily make them all that experienced with other methods, alot of these oldtime beekeepers are just that old time and they don't switch over to tbh because they would never try anything else anyway so I would not use them to measure anything)
however,there is a commercial beekeeper that keeps thousands of topbar hives in Florida and New York.
He claims that he has seen amazing results in the health and productivity of all his hives since making the switch over from langs to topbar hives and having them on natural comb.
That makes alot of sense to me.I am actually picking up some of his bees this week to add to my yard.
He has some intersting things to say about all aspects of beekeeping.
Here is a link if you want to check out what he has to say.
http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/node/32
In Europe they produce and use 3 or 4 types of hives and they all work.
I think there is a place for topbar hives in our beekeeping world.
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Thanks for the reply Natalie. Yes I had read it just takes a bit more intervention, but I certainly can do that. I am going to treat myself next year to one of these hives, I hope, I hope.
Annette
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I think another pro to TBHs is the fact that one doesn't have to lift a lot of heavy equipment...which appeals to us ladies very much! I've read much on the topic and intend to read more but, alas, one of the cons of this type of beeking is very little information is available.
I will be building my very first TBHs this spring from a blue barrel, such as Robo exhibits. I think another thing folks are missing with foudationless frames in a Lang hive is the fact that bees seem to like building comb in a chain formation. Not a square or rectangle. There must be a reason for this configuration....not that I care, but I would like my beeking experience to be as natural as possible. The perfect half moon of comb in the pics Robo shows of his barrel hive was inspirational....I loved the symmetry of it all.
I read a book recently that showed placing a captured swarm in a large, square-topped plastic flower pot with top bars for transporting purposes. I loved the fact that this type of beeking can be done with repurposed items and not having to conform to a pattern or anything typical.
I can't wait until folks ask about what I have in my yard! No one has this type of hive around here and I love the fact that I may be the first. I think, if one is to save the honey bee in the US, one is going to have to take a good hard look at the current accepted methods of bee husbandry. As with all things that have become very commercial in this country, things start to go awry along the way.
I recently attended a bee conference and not one drop of information was imparted about top bar hives. I asked one of the organizers about it and he acted like he had barely heard of such a thing! :-\ They all wanted to point a finger at pesticides as the main reason for colony collapse but were not even considering that generations of breeding bees that are dependent on chemicals to stay alive or moving hives from one commercial crop to another may be factors.
Of course, I'm not saying TBHs are the answer but I think folks need to be looking at old, sustainable methods for keeping bees healthy and thriving. If the first step in moving away from a boxed, manicured, processed, chemicalized and otherwise manipulated beekeeping style is a TBH, then I'm on board!
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results! ;)
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Since this thread has been revived, I would love to hear from Natalie about how the TBH did so far this winter. My concern in a cold weather climate is that the bees would not be able to move up onto the honey stores, but would be forced to move laterally, which may not be possible in sub 30F temps.
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Here is some info from my website. I mention both pro and con, and also the movement of bees. Hope this helps....
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/top-bar-hive.html (http://www.bjornapiaries.com/top-bar-hive.html)
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Thanks BjornBee...that is one of the more realistic assessments of TBH beekeeping that I have seen...most seem to read like a fairly tale :-D. I may still try one this year.
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I am using one this year for the purpose of learning something new - I'm looking forward to it.
I already have foundationless frames in all of my hives and do crush and strain for harvest so I'm not doing it for those purposes - just to try something different.
I also like the idea of not lifting boxes and was fascinated by the lack of disturbance to the hive of just pulling one frame at a time in an inspection. Of course Sam Comfort is Sam Comfort and his peaceful bees may be because of him and not the TBH!
Linda T in Atlanta
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I am one who strongly believes in the pro and con of things.
What I don't under stand is how any one can go either way if they have not been there done that.
I am going to go to TBH's and long regular frame type boxes this year.
One reason for the long regular is for less lifting. I can go out and take out five capped medium frames and place them in the five frame box I plan to make, called "the harvest box". I don't have to stand on something to take a 10 frame box down from head high. Plus if you accidentally get a 10 frame deep above waist high,----- well, do I have to say more. I just turned 68 and have Arthritis in my back. Not fun. I think any one story building is easier to maintain than a multi story one, regardless of size.
In the end no size or shape of a box to house the bees in will not matter if we do not do our part.
The only thing that has bothered the wild bees, that we can put a finger on is the poisons we have put out there. Not only honey bees but other things as well.
We don't know what kind of an effect mites and disease have on them in the wild, we have not been able to monitor the situation.
Guess I am just rambling now, I'll hush, kinda. :)doak
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So far so good. I have been observing them coming and going from the hives on the nice warm days.
I peaked in last week and they are clustered on a couple of the bars.
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>>* Facilitate natural beekeeping. Bees build the broodnest their way.
>
Hi Mike
I am new to TBH not even got any bees yet but KTBH built, I was wondering when I get my first nuc, the frames will be wired, so can I shake the bees into the TBH as long as the Queen go's in! Is this the correct thing to do considering the loss of brood? How long will it take for new comb to be built. Queen breeders do not seem to produce 'packages' in my neck of the woods, as is normal, TBH are looked on askance, with questions about how the bee inspector can inspect your hive for AFB & EFB etc. Would I be better trying to get a swarm?
Regards
cider
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So far so good. I have been observing them coming and going from the hives on the nice warm days.
I peaked in last week and they are clustered on a couple of the bars.
Ditto to mine. My 2 that got robbed, I didn't expect to make it. And they didn't. My strong split is still going strong. Crossing my fingers for these last unpredictable months of WI winter/spring.
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Why would you buy a nuc and waste the brood? You could buy a package cheaper and not waste the brood. Or make frames and do a cutout of the brood. There is no advantage to a nuc if you are not going to use the combs. Buy a package. You can find a bee club that brings them in. You can get them mailed to you. If you're going to waste the brood anyway, then shake the nuc into the box and give the frames back to the nuc producer...
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Hello all hope all was well this winter I wanted to chime in on a few of my friends here in Denver who have TBH. They all have made it and we had a few -18 deg. weeks early on and I have 3 hives in my back yard in Langs and I lost a colony and the TBH's all made it so I really dont see the differance in them I will be adding a few TBH's to my yard this year after watching the fun of them last year and seeing how they over wintered really well. Thats my 2 cents in the matter...... I'm for 'em!!! :-D
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I agree, I don't think there is any difference in winter survival between the tbh and langs, it depends on the colonies themselves, food left for them etc.
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For me, the biggest disadvantage is 1. the fact one is encouraged to leave the bees alone encourages swarming, and for me, if you loose your bees, you aren't a 'beeKEEPER' !! 2. Let alone beekeeping in the current age of varroa etc flies in the face of wanting to deal with the bla*ted mites - yes I know all about some of the theories about small cell size etc but, and it is a big but, there is very little scientific evidence to date, more theory and conjecture to back up ideas.
That said, we are running a TBH & Warre as a comparison to conventional hives (before anyone says I'm blinkered ! )
regards
S
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I think you are extremely confused to say the least. We are discussing topbar hives.
Who says you are suppose to leave them alone?
There is no recommendation that if you have a tbh you are suppose to leave them alone. You can inspect them as much as you want, the theory is that you are not disturbing the entire hive every time you need to go in for something, not that you are suppose to leave them alone.
I think you are confusing the warre' hives with the tbh.
Who says you lose more bees in a tbh?
Who said anything about small cell?
If you are using a tbh then you are allowing them to build their own cells in any size they choose and they do not build all small cell, they build all sizes in the very same hive.
That is referred to natural cell size.
More importantly, the comment about if you lose bees you are not a beekeeper is.... :? everyone everywhere loses bees. Period.
How in the world can you make a statement that if you lose bees you are not a beekeeper?!
That is absurd. If you haven't lost any of your hives yet then you probably aren't a beekeeper yet.
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Natalie - I am not confusing either hive - this is the way the §¤«£¿æ keeper in our association has interepreted the management of the hives and that is the way he manages them.
Whether or not you agree is a matter of opinion - small cell is one way of managing varroa, although I have yet to see if it makes a difference, and it could be one of the ways he will manage the mite IF he decides to continue with his 'minimum interference' course of action.
Bee Looser / Bee Keeper - just a little bit of fun my old mentor used to discuss with me when I lost my first swarm of bees over 20 years ago. I do all I can to prevent swarming as a result !
kind regards
S
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The thing is, we are not discussing any of that here. We were talking about the topbar hives and you went on about small cell, varroa and all that when we were not previously discussing that.
You are saying that your mentor is interpeting things in that way, yet we are not and have not led anyone to believe that we are, so when you jumped in claiming that if you run topbars you are suppose to leave them alone but then they will swarm, you lose more bees, they are small cell etc. all of which are at best not completely accuarate it appeared that you were confused.
This reminds of someone..... Rosanna, Rosanadanna. :-D
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Nats, you missed the title of the thread - PROS & CONS of Top bar Hives - this is what I was discussing when I put these in the cons/pros in my 1st response to the question. They are a con in my eyes, although in others they may see a pro. They also lends themselves to warres which are similar in that they also use top bars, although the hive is a more conventional shape.
Please re-read and your confusion will be abated.
I have no idea who rosanna is
regards
S
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In my eyes, any hive design will eventually swarm for one reason or another, It's the bees nature, instinct for survival - What would happen if they didn't?
I've had comb fall off standard frames a few times. In my area, the concern I have about the TBH is the comb falling off the bar in the heat when getting into it to _________. It's the same concern with warre.
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Actually,
For me, the biggest disadvantage is 1. the fact one is encouraged to leave the bees alone encourages swarming
The most given advice is not to leave tbh's "alone" but that they benefit from increased observation. Not that one has to go through every comb every time, but one needs to keep an eye that the colony has plenty of room to expand.
yes I know all about some of the theories about small cell size etc but, and it is a big but, there is very little scientific evidence to date, more theory and conjecture to back up ideas.
'small cell' is a concept associated with frame foundation. in a TBH, the comb and cell size is determined by the bees as it is drawn and one comb will have various cell sizes. Bees have survived approx 150 million years in 'natural' size cells and comb, I think that should stand as evidence enough for it's efficacy.
In terms of mites, they have been found to have lived with honey bees in various parts of the world for a very long time and there are honey bees in those parts of the world who have been found to have become tolerant and more hygienic as a result. Hence the introduction to the U.S. of the 'Russian' Honeybee as a response to the mite incursion.
This 'hive envy' that is displayed by one side or the other is a bit pesky and really only serves to show ignorance in action. There really is no need to criticize any one hive as bees have been known to independently move into anything from a tree to a house wall to an old car or camper.
Think of it in terms of a tool that is designed for a specific purpose.
Langs were designed to force increased production of honey and to make culling said honey easier for the beekeeper. Plain and simple and they succeed very well at what they were designed for.
One could say the tbh is designed for a more 'conservation' oriented approach to working with bees and is a tool that offers what those people using it consider a less overall intrusive and more 'bee friendly' environment at the expense of convenience or high honey production.
Use the tool that suits your objectives best and let it end at that.
I use mostly tbh's in my endeavors for the present and future but I have langs I use for purposes they meet best as well.
enjoy the bees
Big Bear
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This 'hive envy' that is displayed by one side or the other is a bit pesky and really only serves to show ignorance in action. There really is no need to criticize any one hive as bees have been known to independently move into anything from a tree to a house wall to an old car or camper.
Totally agreed. I love my TBHs! But, I would someday like to try Warre and Langs, too. Pros and cons to all of them, like most things in life.
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LOL
I have a BeeHaus ....
...no one can accuse me of being blinkered !
regards to all
S
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Soms, the point I was making is reiterated by bigbearomaha. The cons you are listing for the tbh are not recommendations associated with topbar hives. Small size, leaving the bees alone... etc. again, have nothing to do with those types of hives.
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Nats, considering this is a worldwide bee forum - in the UK there are a number of beekeepers who consider TBH to fall under the 'let alone' banner, while there are others who do inspect regularly. Obviously this is not something that has yet (?) been considered in the US. That was why I wrote what I did.
As mentioned though - with a minimum 2 TBH and a Warre populated by this summer, at least 1 will be totally 'let alone' to study if small cell can reduce/eradicate varroa while the others will be inspected.
and there is then the beehaus which, I can assure, has caused more uproar over here than the TBH/Warre/Bio -Beekeeping put together !
hey ho, it's off to beekeep we go !
regards
S
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Ok folks, let me throw this out. If your hives are not in a residential but rural area, is it so bad that your bees swarm?
So they swarm and go feral living in trees and they make it season after season adapting to what mother nature has to throw at them.
Congratulations, you have just added survivor stock to your local gene pool. Nothing wrong with a little diversity.
I'm setting up two TBHs I got from uncle Bud last season just for fun. Not expecting anything but pure pleasure. Gonna bring them to my place in Ms and let them bee.
May pull some honey from them, might not. Gonna let them swarm if they want to, make 'em happy spreading their oats. Hopefully, I can be there to see it happen, gonna stand right in the middle of 'em, waving goodbye.
Its all good with bees.
...JP
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I really appreciate that approach of yours JP because I know it becomes such a stressful issue among beeks "OH MY GOD, THEY SWARMED". I was very stressful my first couple of years when I began beekeeping, dreading the swarm season, but now I have relaxed with it all. I will do my best and after that, well adios amigos.
I think my main concern with the swarming is they might take up residence in a nearby house. My bees are approximately 300 feet from the nearest structure.
Looking forward to hearing about the TBH's this year. All of a sudden it has become the newest thing and I am on board with it all also, having turned my electrician onto beekeeping this year. He built a TBH and I will help him with it.
Annette
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Just to verify, I'm not proposing its ok for your bees to totally swarm out on you, but losing some here and there is not that bad of a thing. And I'm dead serious about adding bees to the gene pool. It can only help.
Call it outlaw beekeeping if you will.
...JP ;)
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Ok folks, let me throw this out. If your hives are not in a residential but rural area, is it so bad that your bees swarm?
So they swarm and go feral living in trees and they make it season after season adapting to what mother nature has to throw at them.
Congratulations, you have just added survivor stock to your local gene pool. Nothing wrong with a little diversity.
That's exactly what I told myself when mine swarmed beyond my reach this summer :)
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Simply put, we feel that working tbh made us better beeks. We gained more "bee-knowledge" in one season working tbh than we ever did w/ langs. Although We'll continue to use both styles we credit tbh w/ a welcome eduction provided exclusively by the bees. Not having any close experienced beeks and Living in rural Wisconsin, 2 hours from any bee-club that "bee" supplied education made a great impact on us and the bees. 8-)
t/l
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Simply put, we feel that working tbh made us better beeks. We gained more "bee-knowledge" in one season working tbh than we ever did w/ langs. Although We'll continue to use both styles we credit tbh w/ a welcome eduction provided exclusively by the bees. Not having any close experienced beeks and Living in rural Wisconsin, 2 hours from any bee-club that "bee" supplied education made a great impact on us and the bees. 8-)
t/l
This has been exactly my experience. No mentor. A kind of slow bee club. Only the Internet, books, and the e-mails of beek friends. I hard a hard time pulling myself away from the TBHs last summer (as well as my family). I don't know Langstroths well, but I can't picture a scenario where you could open up the back of a Lang and just sit and watch the bees on their combs the way my kids and I did throughout the summer. That, plus the observation windows and regular visits, taught me more about bees in 1 summer than I could have ever dreamed possible.
I know I have so, so much more to learn, but I also feel like I got to "know" them a little bit and figure out what they were doing.
BTW, it's really neat how many WI beeks there are--welcome!
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I really appreciate that approach of yours JP because I know it becomes such a stressful issue among beeks "OH MY GOD, THEY SWARMED". I was very stressful my first couple of years when I began beekeeping, dreading the swarm season, but now I have relaxed with it all. I will do my best and after that, well adios amigos.
Annette, It was very interesting to listen to Sam Comfort talk about his TBH bees at the Florida Organic Beekeepers meeting in West Palm. Sam does not worry about swarming and sees it (as it obviously IS) as the reproduction of the hive and essential to the survival of the bees. He also does not feed bees, like our own Michael Bush, and Sam says that if they are strong enough to survive the winter and strong enough to put away enough stores for winter, then they are the bees that should survive, unlike the bees who don't get it right going into winter.
He was a real hands-off beekeeper but obviously loved his bees and watching him move around the bees and take bees out of his TBHs to show us was almost balletic (although in his Army fatigue cut off shorts, flip flops, old shirt and floppy hat, he looked nothing like a ballerina!).
Linda T in Atlanta
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Thanks Linda for this reply. I watched a video on Sam a couple of weeks ago (can't remember where I found it) I believe it was a U Tube video. I really enjoyed watching him and how comfortable he was with the hives.
I think the only worry I actually have with the swarming is:
(well actually 2 worries)
1. That they will keep swarming themselves to death or at the least, become too weak to gather enough honey to make it through winter.
2. That they will end up in one of the structures on the property where I keep them. (not my property) Then I will have to fly JP out here to do a proper cutout!!!! :-D :-D :-D
Other than that, I feel fine about it all.
:imsorry: :stayontopic:
How is the TBH coming along?? You know I am teaching the 4H club beekeeping right now (per your influence) and we are going to build a TBH soon. So the club will start with 2 langs and 1 TBH for the kids to enjoy and learn.
Take care and love
Annette
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My top bar hive is built and painted. Tonight I finished gluing these wooden sticks (called Woodies at Michael's) into the slits in the top bars as starting points for the bees. I have plastic for the top of the hive and haven't cut it to fit yet. Now all I need is a swarm. I'm on the swarm list for my bee club and I usually get a swarm call or two from people finding my blog when they search for an Atlanta beekeeper.
I can't wait to experiment with this.
Linda T, channeling Sam Comfort and wishing for as much comfort with the bees.
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I think the first year of having a tbh is a great experience and after a while you can tweek the hive however you want, move the entrances, go longer or shorter etc.
The great thing about it is they are not expensive so you can play around with the design a little and they are pretty forgiving.
I got my 6 year old a tbh last year and it has been a great learning tool for him, he also helps me inspect the langs so he is able to see how they both operate and make any comparisons between the two.
I agree about not worrying too much about letting the bees swarm, annette maybe you could put an empty nuc or swarm trap on the property to catch them if they do swarm instead of them going into one of the structures there.
I am glad Jp stated this because I was wondering if there was something wrong with me not caring much about what the bees did in that regard. In the beginning I heard so much about avoiding the bees swarming that I started to think about what I would have to do and then I thought that I really did not want to deal with all that and maybe I was going to be interfering too much with their natural rhythm.
I enjoy beekeeping and I don't want it to become a chore, I have them for what they are and if I get honey then its great but that is not my main focus of having bees.
I don't medicate or feed my bees either, going into winter I left them their honey and hoped for the best.
They all pulled through.
Sam Comfort is a character for sure.
I have some colonies that I got from Sam last year, he obviously has some good stock, the bees were pretty mellow, productive and hearty. They have done very well for me.
I saw him at the chemical free conference in Massachusetts last year and he was in his usual beekeeping garb, shorts, shirt and flip flops. It is hard to believe that he didn't grow up around bees and that he only started beekeeping several years ago, it shows how much you can learn from them if you just pay attention to the bees and do what they tell you rather than doing everything the books or the bee club says to do.
The people at my bee club give the students a long list of things they should do every year with the bees and its overkill.
I didn't have a mentor so I was able to do figure out how I want to do things on my own, I am not afraid to make mistakes because then I will learn from them but I would rather have them be my own mistakes than someone else's that is repeated over and over.
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Yes Nat,
Good idea about the swarm trap. I will try and do that.
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I enjoy beekeeping and I don't want it to become a chore, I have them for what they are and if I get honey then its great but that is not my main focus of having bees.
I didn't have a mentor so I was able to do figure out how I want to do things on my own, I am not afraid to make mistakes because then I will learn from them but I would rather have them be my own mistakes than someone else's that is repeated over and over.
Totally agree! I've decided to go through my hives WAY less this year. I think it will be better for the girls and not be as overwhelming for me during already-overwhelming summer season. They know what they're doing far better than I :)
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Today lifted 3 heavy supers trying to equalize the population in 2 hives. OH my gosh!! I really hurt my back lifting the wrong way. Wasn't paying attention to my posture. Well I think the TBH is the only way for me to actually continue beekeeping in the future. I am in constant pain all summer long due to all the lifting.
I love the langs and finally figured out how to manage them, but to save my back, I may have to go all TBH next.
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That is a HUGE pro, the back issues. I hope your back pain resolves, Annette. It's sure no fun at all to be dealing with that. It will be fun to hear what you think of your topbars--good luck!
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Be careful with your back annette, I have had three back surgeries and that is no fun at all.
This is why I am so mindful of what I have for beehives. The 8 frame medium langs and topbar hives are all I can manage without hurting myself, but even after a day of checking langs my back is sore for a while.
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I already have all the equipment for the 10 frames so I think I am stuck with it all.
But hopefully I can transition to the TBH over the next few years.
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Just doing some thinking here....but I was wondering why a person couldn't just take the Langstroth hive bodies, place them side by side, knock out a wall, put 'em up on legs and lay top bars on them to convert them? It's probably not ideal but it could make use of the existing equipment.
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Its called a long hive, Michael Bush has some pictures of them on his website.
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http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshorizontalhives.htm)
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I may be repeating what someone else has already stated but I'll put in my 2 cents and if you like it I'll charge you 5 for more! :-D
Top Bar vs Langstroth comes down to one thing in my mind - Honey Production. I have yet to see a viable business plan for a beekeeping operation focused on honey product which utilizes a Top Bar design.
If your goal is to produce honey for sale or in any significant quantity then you should reconsider your use of Top Bar hives. If you are not concerned with honey production there are some good reasons why Top Bar hives are a good alternative to traditional designs. I won't provide a detailed list since others already have.
Feel free to take issue with my assertions but I have not been proven wrong on this yet although I would be very interested in pursuing a more natural method of commercial honey production!
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Sam, if one were to look at working with bees like being a mechanic, there are some interesting comparisons that can be made.
For example, just as there are different types of mechanics, passenger auto mechanics, diesel mechanics,auto body shops and engine specialties. Each type of mechanic fixes motor vehicles, yet each has a different focus and somewhat specific end objective.
Also, for each type of mechanic work being done, there are tools and parts that are unique to that work which help accomplish those objectives best.
in working with bees, some are focused on honey production, others on pollinating crops for a fee, others simply for the fun of it and yet others with a conservation and breeding mission.
Each type of working with bees has a different end objective that is not the same as the others and the tools and equipment are there to help meet those specific objectives.
One should not say that one type of working with bees is or should be the measuring stick against which all others be compared or measured. That's not accurate as the others don't have necessarily the same goals/objectives. One type of beekeeping is not necessarily better or more important than any other.
Lang style hives have shown themselves to be very effective in honey production, that's good.
TBH's have shown themselves to be good for conservation and hobby purposes. Not to say that one type of hive can't be used for the other purposes, but some folks, like some mechanics learn which tools and parts work best for the purposes they are working toward.
There need not be a competition to say one is ultimately better than the other, They both have their place for those that choose to use them.
Big Bear
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VERY well said, BigBear!
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I would be very interested in pursuing a more natural method of commercial honey production!I have not been proven wrong on this yet although
What do you call a commercial honey production! If you have bee and sell honey are you commercial? one how sell honey from 1 hive or 10,000 hives ?
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Okay, just how much less honey are we talking about with Lang's vs top bars? I know it varies by hive and season, but is there anyone out here who has worked a bunch of both, to make same season comparisons on a number of hives?
We have 8 frame Lang's now, mostly due to me being too small to lift a full 10 frame deeps. a bale of hay, a sack of feed, OR a full 8 box deep are about my limits. And I think it is smarter for 2 to lift a full deep, or move it to an empty covered deep on a wagon. Feed doesn't care if you drop it & neither do you :evil: Off topic...
I am very interested in the top hives, for learning more about the bees & observing them, but also because, yep, we can see that the constant replacement of Lang equipment adds up. Just adding new hives costs big, even if you get swarms & do your own splits.
I have heard estimates ranging from 8 pounds of honey thru 20 pounds of honey energy & time are needed by the bees to produce 1 pound of wax. Would it be accurate, that if you are doing crush and strain, which sounds necessary with top bar, then you would necessarily be costing that much honey production vs pulling supers from a Lang, uncapping, extracting and putting the wet supers right back on? That would be a con....
Of course the pro would have to be that you would be finding a market for the wax, or making/selling wax based products from that wax. Should be fairly light/good quality wax if it is being used only once (vs left on supers for a few years)?
How much honey and how much wax does one get from each full bar of a top bar hive? If I play with this, I would want to make top bar hives as compatible with Lang frame tops as possible for size.
It sounds like basically, no one has come up with a foundationless frame or top frame holder so that they could be spun in an extractor and returned to the hive? Or would the force just cause whatever grid you used to tear thru the wax?
If that is the case, if we wanted to keep hives to extract from, would long hives with Lang frame & foundation be what we would be looking at? Could we do observation windows on those?