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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Bush_84 on March 07, 2013, 01:34:26 pm

Title: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 07, 2013, 01:34:26 pm
So...since all of my hives died this winter I am looking at a new game plan for this year.  Unfortunately that means buying more packages than I originally intended.  So I have 8 Mann lake italian packages coming in the spring.  I should have enough comb for each to get around an 8 frame deep of comb and some later to help for seed comb.  I run foundationless 8 frame with deeps for brood and mediums for honey.  So here is my rough plan.

1. Hive packages.  Feed syrup and protein patty.
2. When hive expands to fill the lower box (likely around the time of the first orientation flight?) super with another deep box with at least two seed combs.
3. Once top deep is 3/4th full nadir a deep with at least two seed combs.  Super a medium at the same time. 
4. Continue to super as needed (wishful thinking most likely.  Will be happy to get them up to 3 deeps.)
5. Come July purchase a carniolan queen.  Take an Italian queen and put in nuc.  Put carni in original hive. 
6. After a week use a cloake board on carni hive to make queens. 
7. Make more nucs by taking Italians off and introducing queen cell.

Thats just a rough outline of what I am currently thinking.  I just wanted to see if any of the bee whisperers her had any advice on my plan.  Anything that is unrealistic here?  My biggest issue has been my extremely intense June flow.  The raspberries bloom (they grow like weeds here), the bees backfill every cell in the hive, and off goes a swarm.  My one hive that did the best last year followed the above supering then nadiring plan, except I only used two deeps.  Expanding above and below I figure gives them ample room to continue to expand and prevent swarming.  Maybe I'll call it the pyramiding up and down plan.  I would love to see them at least build up to three deeps for the winter. 

My next issue is what to do about the queens/nucs.  My winters here have the capability to stink badly.  I would love to give them every chance in the world to succeed.  To me that spells carniolans.  Mann lake only sells italians.  So I am not sure what I want to do when I rear queens in July (assuming everything is going according to plan at that point).  Do I take a nuc off of each?  Will that be to much for a first year package?  Is it silly for me to consider requeening each package? 

 I would love to be able to protect myself somewhat against major losses with wintering nucs.  I have enough equipment to make two 5 over 5 deeps nucs and two 3 over 3 deep nucs (two deep bodies split in half by a divider).  Should I use that arrangement or keep them in a single box with a lot of dry sugar on top? 

I know it's a lot, but I really want to try to shield myself against total losses again and lost swarms.  I figure maybe somebody call look through this and tell me what would be good and what might be foolish.  I would rather be told ahead of time that something is foolish than do something foolish.  Thanks!
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: AllenF on March 07, 2013, 02:25:51 pm
Sounds like you are going to be feeding bees all summer long.   You got something against the Italians?  I would not run 3 deeps. When you get 2 deeps full, then you can split.  And feed.  Try to get 16 full hives to go into the fall.  Then you can see about wintering nucs with what you have left over with bees.  I think this would be a good first year plan on your way to 1000 hives.  Next year you can split and feed your way to 64 or more hives if all you hives winter well. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 07, 2013, 05:39:09 pm
Holy cow I couldn't even imagine that many hives.  I realise I didn't spell out my goals.  I am a backyard beekeeper looking to keep around 10 hives and winter enough nucs to replace losses.  I may winter the nucs in my garage or heat.  Don't think they would survive on their own. 

I guess maybe I shouldn't be so quick to judge Italians.  I have never used them, but I always read about how much better carnis winter compared to Italians.  So in my two years as a beekeeper i have kept carnis or carni mutts.  When you get three weeks worth of lows around -30 and highs of 0,you want every advantage you can get.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: AllenF on March 07, 2013, 05:53:48 pm
If you winter nucs in your garage, you can't have any windows or light in there.   Also, it needs to be unheated or keep them at 50 or below.  You don't want the flying in there.  You will loose your bees unless you fix it where they have an entrance to the outside.   
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 07, 2013, 06:56:56 pm
Always good to have a plan, and nothing like honeybees to make changes to them as they see fit  :-D

Yeah, 3 deeps is a  lot of deeps IMO. I use all mediums myself but even when I used to brood in deeps it was just one Deep, topped w/ mediums and maybe a few shallows.  

There have been and still are many beeks swearing by 'single story' hives though, with added honey supers of course.  With all mediums I use 2 for brood, but the concept is the same.   DEEPS ARE HEAVY (even 8 frame)!

I'd add a honey super right away (on top of that 'one' brood deep) as dandelions should blooming when your packages arrive and they will soon ignore nearly everything else you might give them.  

As your using a 'foundationless' system and it sounds like you're low on empty drawn comb frames, stick in some frames with foundation, placed alternately (empty, foundation, empty) to be removed later.  Just mark them ahead of time.

Here's a little trick to keep your honey comb clean with a foundationless system if you're producing cut comb honey  (why else, right?).  As the bees fill the top honey super you gave them when first hiving (their honey), place another empty (your honey) honey super "UNDER" it (above the brood deep), as it will cause fresh 'new' comb to be built very quick and traffic (beefeet prints) over it will be light.  Once full (you gotta look), remove the whole super and put in another empty, in the same place, keeping a "nearly full" super always on top.  You'll harvest clean comb honey from the middle one for the season this way.


I absolutely love the idea of storing NUCs in an unheated, dark garage/shed with that access outside.  Gonna do that myself, yes sir.

Yeah, I'd just build up your packages and split/NUC them.  Buy some queens until you know "what method" ( there's a few) you prefer as a hobby beek to raise your own.  More and more beeks are raising their own queens these days, but the best is when several "likeminded" beekeepers from the same region can get together and share bee genetics by simply sharing queens.   8-)  

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.............. JL

LOCAL/REGIONAL BEES RULE
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 07, 2013, 10:42:53 pm
By using three deeps I will hopefully allow the bees to expand down as they are back filling the brood neat during that intense flow.  The u of m has some crazy system using three ten frame deeps.  I have not attended any of their classes, but it apparently works for them.  After leaving two deeps and a medium, my bees were in the top box by feb.  I would love to be able to checkerboard and enter spring with extra honey above the cluster instead of feeding.

I don't use foundation because I am cheap.  Thus far I have not had troubles getting bees to draw straight combs.  You have to tinker a bit and micromanage a bit, but it can be done without any foundation. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Vance G on March 07, 2013, 10:52:04 pm
Buy the U of M book.  The third box promotes a larger cluster eating more food over winter.  You then split one box off, a nuc, render the other queenless right before the flow to maximize honey production and consider it expendible and you let the nuc grow to the point it winters in three deeps and you start over.  That is an on the fly rendition of what I read 18 months ago.  Imperfect I am sure.  Get the pamplet.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 08, 2013, 12:24:13 am
i cut my teeth on italians and i'm working my way toward mutts now.  i'd look for some local survivor stock to raise my queens from without considering the variety or i'd go into the winter half carniolans half italians then raise queens from the two hives that made it through the winter requiring the least feed and building up the fastest.  then next year pick the two best again and by the third year you should have a consistent "bee" assuming there aren't a lot of other beekeepers near you or a lot of feral bees (that would probably be a good thing).  good luck. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 08, 2013, 05:14:20 am
Yep, nothing wrong w/ Italians.  Even Finski uses Italians.  My first wife was Italian and well......we won't go there... ;)

I own the books, DVD and practiced U of M methods for a while but we all wind up with a system that best fits us in the end, in fact our local Beek Club is having Gary Reuter of U of M at our meeting tommorrow to discuss queen rearing. 

Few beeks practice this ART the same way as any other.  Similarities yes, the same, rarely.  8-)
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 08, 2013, 06:51:29 am
.
You have lost all your colonies and now you have a  plan which does not sound realistic.

A package is like a small swarm. It start in spring and its star is difficult.

Do you know how many frames the package covers?

One langstroth box needs 2 kg bees that they  fill the  box. Are the packages 3 lbs or what?

In spring it takes 4 weeks that first bees start to emerge. It takes 5-6 weeks that the box is full of brood and bees. Now you give a second  box  and it takes time that colony fills the two box.
When the hive has 10-15 frames brood and two boxes, it takes again 6 weeks that brood will be foragers. Now it is ready to forage honey yield.

3 months has gone. 

huge raspberry flow  bring difficulties to small hives because they are filled in few  days. So they swarm. What are you going to do with swarms.  Do you know how to prevent swarming? Carniolans are quite bad in that job.


A huge plan, but  you should  learn to look the speed  how colonies build up and you do enlargements according their natural build up.

And nucs too from small hives?

Your plan is difficult even to experienced beekeeper. Beekeepers have seldom realistic view how slow is the build up of small colonies. Feed feed feed and things go worse. The small hive need  room for laying  and it has no meaning how fast  they draw combs. Feeding fills valuable cells. And then swarming.

.



Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 08, 2013, 07:49:26 am
By using three deeps I will hopefully allow the bees to expand down as they are back filling the brood neat during that intense flow.  The u of m has some crazy system using three ten frame deeps.  I have not attended any of their classes, but it apparently works for them.  After leaving two deeps and a medium, my bees were in the top box by feb.  I would love to be able to checkerboard and enter spring with extra honey above the cluster instead of feeding.

I don't use foundation because I am cheap.  Thus far I have not had troubles getting bees to draw straight combs.  You have to tinker a bit and micromanage a bit, but it can be done without any foundation.  

A foundationless system without using some form of 'straightening guide, be it drawn comb frames or 'temporary' foundation frames (foundation 'is' relatively cheap, especially if it can be used over and over) will eventually cause more grief than expected (ask me?).

Early Spring (1st inspection) is the perfect time to just 'remove' the bottom super in any 2-3 story hive as it will likely be empty of bees because as mentioned, most will be concentrated at the top.   Clean up time  ;)

By 'forcing' bees to back fill into brood comb you're also encouraging their natural instinkt to reproduce/swarm

To inhibit swarming learn and practice KYBO (Keeping Your Broodnests Open) known by several names, including checkerboarding.
 
EXCELLENT ADVISE (and great questions to consider) FROM FINSKI!!!!!
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Maryland Beekeeper on March 08, 2013, 08:14:36 am
+1 Finski
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 08, 2013, 11:02:15 am
If taking nucs off of a first year colony is to stressing then I will avoid it and try it next year.  I was thinking that if I took one brood comb off of each hive (remember i am starting 4 packages) and made a few nucs it wouldn't be that stressing for the hive.  I could probably make two strong nucs this way.  But if that is to much to ask from these hives then I will not do it.  Maybe I will have to just see how they do.

As far as swarm prevention, honestly thus far these raspberries have thwarted my efforts.  I suspect that once I get to my goal colony count and start getting some stored drawn comb, swarming will be less likely.  Until then I am not sure what is best.  The colony that didn't swarm and that has done the best was the colony that I supered and nadired.  The way I understand it was that opening the brood nest is different than checkerboarding.  Checkeboarding is done in the spring.  You alternate your honey combs with empty combs.  It gives bees the impression that their colony is not fully prepped to swarm.  Opening the brood nest is placing empty combs or undrawn frames into the brood nest.  This reduces congestion and keeps nurse bees busy.

At this point checkerboarding doesn't seem feasible as my bees have thus far always started the spring in the top box.  So nothing to checkerboard.  Opening the brood nest is a good option.  I maybe have to do it very intensely during the flow.  I have done it in the past, but maybe not to the degree I need to.  The question is what do you do with the full frames?  It may be a good idea to nadir those. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 08, 2013, 11:15:23 am
.
When I started beekeeping, I bought swarms. I noticed that 8 lbs bees is the best start. That amount of bees occupy 2  boxes Langstroth and draw the foudations.

After 4 weeks I could see that hive had one box brood, one box honey and the amount of bees had dropped to half. In that stage hive cannot forage any more or enlarge brooding.

Then  new bees start to emerge. Old home bees become foragers. The queen may add laying.
After 5-6 weeks I may add a third box.

However I saw that in this system  2lbs bees is able to get 20 lbs honey to be extracted. Quite much went to comb building.

If I did one box hive, it has great difficulties to get laying room when bees stored honey into brood combs.

.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 08, 2013, 11:24:13 am
You can make up NUCs w/ a first year package but they need to be strong colonies with bees to spare.  You also need to know 'why' you are doing so (raising and banking queens, expanding the yard with more colonies?)  Taking one brood frame from 4 colonies is a good idea but not until you know the strength of each colony.  Also, 4 frames of brood to start a NUC is optimal for ONE NUC IMO, not 4 NUC's.  You also need to add some pollen and honey to each.

Diligent observation is needed during a heavy flow, such as raspberries.  Its an excellent "opportunity" to "find" several queen cells that you can remove, frame and all (don't take them all though or you could end up queenless), placing it in a NUC along with some frames of brood and nurse bees, increasing chances of acceptance and survival.  You've also inhibited swarming at the same time.

I know, sometimes 'individual' beek terms can be confusing, add to that the different methods each beek has for attaining virtually the same goals can make it even more so.  I've mixed checkerboarding and KYBO as terms meant to describe opening the broodnest for a while.  Sorry if I've added to the confusion.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 08, 2013, 12:36:26 pm
.
You can make, ....but you must know first the basics of ordinary bee nursing.
Then you should have in autumn so big hives that they are easy to over winter.

If you have 4 boxes bees in summer, they need only one  box in winter.

You may split the hive ad then you have 2 nucs which are difficult to over winter.

To raise own queens and loose  lots of bees and time with those small colonies, it is not  beginners' job.  you steel bees from big hives and give them to small hives, that put into danger most of you hives.   - if you do not know what to.

.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 08, 2013, 12:56:25 pm
Typo in previous post.  Starting 8 packages not 4.  Sorry. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 08, 2013, 02:25:40 pm
Typo in previous post.  Starting 8 packages not 4.  Sorry. 
ftp://

i propose that make 2 double size hives  4 normal size..

So you will see the  build up difference of bigger colonies.

Use foundations. No idea to use foundationless frames.
.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 08, 2013, 03:02:58 pm
Typo in previous post.  Starting 8 packages not 4.  Sorry. 
ftp://

i propose that make 2 double size hives  4 normal size..

So you will see the  build up difference of bigger colonies.

Use foundations. No idea to use foundationless frames.
.

That's a thought, although I don't know if I could get myself to do it. 

I definitely agree that I need to just make sure that my packages have built up enough.  If I get a couple of hives that have built up enough by July I may consider making a nuc.  That of course depends on how well they have all done.  I better avoid queen rearing until I get overwintered colonies.  If I want my nucs and parent hives to build up enough before winter I will be better off buying in queens.  So I better just buy in queens. 

Again just looking to have a plan.  I understand that things may not go well enough to do all of this.  I would rather plan for something that never happens than not look far enough ahead and have to think of something last minute if I have 8 huge colonies.  I have seen Michael palmers video on wintering nucs.  I am entering my third spring beekeeping and I am already sick of buying bees.  My ultimate goal is a sustainable apiary and overwintering nucs seems to me like the way to do that. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: BlueBee on March 08, 2013, 03:23:16 pm
If you’ve got drawn comb (from the deadouts), I would definitely not combine packages.  I would go for 8 new hives.  With comb, and a prolific queen, those should build up fine by fall.  Hoping to make nucs might be too ambitious.  I would wing it and see how they do.  Sometimes you get a very prolific hive(s).  You might have some that can spare brood by late July or early August.  That late in the season you really can’t expect to get your own queen mated and laying until September and that’s just too late to make many winter bees.  So if you do have a prolific hive or two and you want to split, I would plan to buy mated queens and at least give them a month head start for winter.  A little genetic variety can be a good thing too.

I would not winter in 3 deeps, that just sounds crazy to me.   
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 08, 2013, 03:51:06 pm
.
Bush, have you opportunity to catch swarms? They would support your tinys.

That wintering..

Winter cluster will be same size as brood are before when hive stops brood rearing.

If hive has 8 frames brood, it will need one box for winter. Then you feed them full 20 kg sugar and they will winter.  if...they are not southern stock which do not understand what means Minnesota winter.

When you take care of wintering, you need not buy bees any more.

When you have packages, do not wait that you make nucs. It makes no sense.
You have enough to do that you get big hives for winter and then you have big hives in spring.

.

Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 09, 2013, 12:03:37 am
In all my life I have never seen or heard of a swarm in Minnesota.  Any swarm would come from any other beek that might live close.  I will set out swarm traps again.  This time with old brood comb.  Maybe I will get lucky and maybe I will catch my own swarms if my hives swarm again. 

I don't really know any beekeepers here so I can't just come get their swarms.  My work schedule is pretty hectic.  So I can't just drop everything to go on swarm calls.  So it seems my only option is swarm traps as a few places and keep my fingers crossed.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 09, 2013, 02:43:13 am
just a thought but would russians be a better choice up there?
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 09, 2013, 04:53:53 am
just a thought but would russians be a better choice up there?

as far as I know, Russians are not ordinary bees. They have strange habits.

It is not race question which thrive in Minnesota. It is  special strains  which have instinct to react properly on local climate, and I do not believe that package queens from south has that ability.

Yes, I am full of Minnesota winter. It is so harsh that you must feed  honey balls in the middle of winter and give out feeding when it comes warm spell. These guys know how to kill your hives if yourself do not know how to do it.


Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 09, 2013, 04:56:33 am
.
A free advice

find an experinced beekeeper  nearby who helps you in your hobby.

.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 09, 2013, 08:08:40 am
I agree w/ Finski; The specific breed makes only a 'little' difference if any.  IMHO, Bee and Queen Packages from hundreds or a thousand miles away are not the optimal in any case, but is what is readily available.  So buy the best you can find if you must buy bees, even if more costly than most.  

"Good bees ain't cheap, Cheap bees ain't good"  :-D

I think that is slowly changing as more beeks, especially some Northerners are raising 'overwintered NUCs and /or queens and selling locally.  This is a movement I strongly support and encourage as I believe that our specific 'regional' bees will become our best local survivors for no better reason than common sense.

Ideally we want bees that are adapted to our particular climate, especially in Northern regions with extreme winters, and the only way to accomplish that is to either purchase bees from a "trusted" local beek or successfully overwinter your own.  Even those swarms caught should be suspect as they are more than likely just some poor beeks first year package, maybe even our own  ;).

After surviving 2 northern winters I think we can call any colony of bees successfully 'adapted' to the region.  That's my personal rule anyway and those are the bees you want to make splits/ NUCS/Queens.  Not an untried first year package that came from 'who knows' where.  It can be done w/ a 1st year package but to assure greater success splits/NUCS should come from 'proven' colonies.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 09, 2013, 09:03:10 am
I agree w/ Finski; The specific breed makes only a 'little' difference if any.  

yes, difference is small. Hive is in spring dead or alive.

.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: rdy-b on March 09, 2013, 08:56:56 pm
**Continue to super as needed (wishful thinking most likely.  Will be happy to get them up to 3 deeps.)
5. Come July purchase a carniolan queen.  Take an Italian queen and put in nuc.  Put carni in original hive.**

 How you going to accomplish your goals in the time frame --starting package when -may 1---july
the way i read this you already got bees for splits and surplus honey---in two maybe three months

 need to fine tune plan  8-)--what are your goals??  are you hopping to make lots of increase of colonies
or are you hopping for a honey crop--  drawn comb is a big limiting factor-must have plenty drawn comb
  :) heres some ideas for increase--overzealous in my book but theory has merit
 
  http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf (http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf)       :)RDY-B
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 09, 2013, 09:56:28 pm
i'm not so sure there will be many beekeepers up there willing to give away their survivor stock.  my thought on the russians is that they are a "cold weather" variety if i understand what i've read about them.  there may be a better chance of getting some of them through a northern winter than italians or carniolans.  i'm not disagreeing with the "local stock" theory.  if you read my first post you'll see that's just what i said.  if you follow the thread you'll see that the op said there are no nearby beekeepers and he's never seen a swarm up there. 
back in the 70's and 80's we shipped packages and queens up there every spring because the commercial beekeepers didn't bother trying to winter the bees.  it was easier for them to just buy more every year.
i've been through minnesota in late november.  i feel for you.
it was sunny and in the low 70's down here today and should be again tomorrow.  i went through three hives and did a little comb manipulation in the brood chambers and they all had a good deal of nectar that they didn't have a few days ago.  i'd say it is about to be "on" in middle georgia. 
i haven't done much research on queen breeders because i'll be raising my own but if you could find some from kentucky or tn.  you'd stand a little better chance.
wintering isn't a big problem down here.  i'm more interested in bees that can battle mites and beetles.
in the end i don't think you can expand as rapidly as you'd like to.  if i were you i'd focus on just building up 8 of the strongest hives you can this year and leaving as much honey as possible on them. 
if you can keep the nucs in a more climate controlled environment and don't mind feeding them you might consider trying that this season.  keeping the good ole southern italian queens would be good for that because you could expect them to build up earlier than other varieties of bees.  if it works requeen the hives you start with them and do it again next year.
whatever you do i hope it works out for you.  cold winters and short flows (along with pretty serious drought conditions last year) would make beekeeping pretty challenging.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 10, 2013, 07:33:51 pm
**Continue to super as needed (wishful thinking most likely.  Will be happy to get them up to 3 deeps.)
5. Come July purchase a carniolan queen.  Take an Italian queen and put in nuc.  Put carni in original hive.**

 How you going to accomplish your goals in the time frame --starting package when -may 1---july
the way i read this you already got bees for splits and surplus honey---in two maybe three months

 need to fine tune plan  8-)--what are your goals??  are you hopping to make lots of increase of colonies
or are you hopping for a honey crop--  drawn comb is a big limiting factor-must have plenty drawn comb
  :) heres some ideas for increase--overzealous in my book but theory has merit
 
  http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf (http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf)       :)RDY-B

Ya I am certain it is.  Again I would rather be aware of what my procedure is going to be if I get to that point.  I am trying to get my plan set for his year, but also trying to tease out what my standard procedure will be.  So if things seem a bit off as far as expectations please don't think that I am completely clueless.  I do understand that my goals are lofty, but I do hope that giving each hive about a box and a half of already drawn comb and some capped honey will give them a good head start.  Others in my area told me that a new nuc in the spring have the potential to give me a 100 lb harvest.  Maybe that's on drawn comb, but the gentleman knew that I was new. 

Just because it keeps coming up about what my goals are I will prioritize them in descending order from most important to least important. 

- have 8 strong colonies going into October with low mite counts
-build up my 8 packages to 3 deeps.
-get maybe a medium or two of honey total not per hive
- get one or two nucs made before August started with bought in mated queens
- rear queens If nothing else just to learn

Again I understand that not all of these things will happen.  Since these are of varying importance to me I will make sure the top goal is sure to be accomplished before I move down to the next.  If I don't even manage to attain the first goal I would still like to set some goals and priorities. Rearing queens seems practically unattainable as does making nucs, but I would do it if I had the ability. 

So another question, how strong would a colony have to be to pull a frame of brood and bees off of it?  Two full 8 frame deeps?  Three full 8 frame deeps?

Also as to the three deep tower, the way I figure it is if I use three 8 frame deeps I will have 24 combs.  If I use two 10 frame deeps I have 20.  If I only use two 8 frame deeps I only have 16 frames.  I would rather have the extra 4 combs than be short 4 compared to others in the area.  I also figure it would give me more spring flexibility.  I have the ability to give bees two directions to expand their brood nest, above and below.  They can expand as they wish, but will have plenty of space to do so. 

Then next year my goals assuming some winter survivability would look like this.

-have 10 strong colonies going into october with low mite counts.
-build up hives to three deeps.
-2-4 mediums of honey total.
-rear queens using cloake board
- use queens to create 4-6 nucs.
- get more honey than allotted above

This will surely depend on the quality and quantity of hives that make it through the next winter.  If they all die I will likely revert to my previous goals.  If I only have one or two hives make it I will have to change my quantity of hives going into winter decreased as I am not sure I could convince my wife that buying this many packages every year is economically feasible, but would still be able to rear queens and make splits from wintered stock. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: rdy-b on March 10, 2013, 08:23:08 pm
**So another question, how strong would a colony have to be to pull a frame of brood and bees off of it? **

 If there is 4 frames of sealed brood taking a frame wont hurt your hive-you can pull from all 8 hives
if you start them in may-then july and again august harvest a frame of brood-for nucs-If you buy mated queens
 for your nucs then your risk is lower and the brood wont be wasted on a failed attempt at queens-you can always
combine everything back at the end of the season for strong hive to get through winter-If you learn to control
mites and feed protein in sept for strong winter bee population you will be smiling next spring-- :) RDY-B
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Jim134 on March 10, 2013, 08:39:54 pm

I would not winter in 3 deeps, that just sounds crazy to me.   


Mike Palmer of French Hill Apiaries, St. Albans, Vermont does this all the time in (3-10 frame deeps boxes)he all so overwinters (1-4 frames deep nuc)

 Mike Palmer 4/2011 The Sustainable Apiary Part 1 of 2 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/23178333)

 Mike Palmer2 4/2011- The Sustainable Apiary Part 2 of 2 on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/23234196)





           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 10, 2013, 09:26:30 pm
^^^ i agree with jim.  i don't see any real negative in trying to winter hives 3 deeps tall if there are plenty of bees and plenty stores. 
my plans are to go into winter with double deeps with one medium each on top of them.  my winter conditions are very different, though.  i don't want to feed.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 11, 2013, 01:17:24 am

I would not winter in 3 deeps, that just sounds crazy to me.   


Mike Palmer of French Hill Apiaries, St. Albans, Vermont does this all the time in (3-10 frame deeps boxes)he all so overwinters (1-4 frames deep nuc)


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

from one madness to another.

You cannot say forehead  how you winter. You see before autumn, how much broof frames hive had and the wintering cluster needs a such wintering space.

Wintering in 3 frame nucs is nonsense. Even if hive is alive in spring, a queen and handfull of  bees, it is not a viable unit.
A guy just losted all hives and you are advicing how to loose next winter all his 8 hives again. Come on.

Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 11, 2013, 01:30:19 am
^^^ i agree with jim.  i don't see any real negative in trying to winter hives 3 deeps tall if there are plenty of bees and plenty stores. 
my plans are to go into winter with double deeps with one medium each on top of them.  my winter conditions are very different, though.  i don't want to feed.


wintering in harsh climate:

rule 1: constrict the the wintering space according the size of colony.

It is pure madness to winter bees in 3 boxes.
Second madness: I don't want to feed!

3 langstroth boxes has honey  3x25 kg =  75 kg.  holy chip.

This forum does not help beginners. This should be closed at once.

.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Jim134 on March 11, 2013, 05:13:55 am
^^^ i agree with jim.  i don't see any real negative in trying to winter hives 3 deeps tall if there are plenty of bees and plenty stores.  
my plans are to go into winter with double deeps with one medium each on top of them.  my winter conditions are very different, though.  i don't want to feed.


wintering in harsh climate:

rule 1: constrict the the wintering space according the size of colony.

It is pure madness to winter bees in 3 boxes.
Second madness: I don't want to feed!

3 langstroth boxes has honey  3x25 kg =  75 kg.  holy chip.

This forum does not help beginners. This should be closed at once.

.

Finski... Are you a beginner ???

I see by your posts you know very little about Northern Vermont USA winter time





                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 11, 2013, 07:23:13 am
[quote
Finski... Are you a beginner ???

I see by your posts you know very little about Northern Vermont USA winter time


why I should know?

And what ever it is, I have nothing to learn about North American hive wintering.

.

 
.

Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 11, 2013, 09:32:35 am
^^^ i agree with jim.  i don't see any real negative in trying to winter hives 3 deeps tall if there are plenty of bees and plenty stores. 
my plans are to go into winter with double deeps with one medium each on top of them.  my winter conditions are very different, though.  i don't want to feed.


wintering in harsh climate:

rule 1: constrict the the wintering space according the size of colony.

It is pure madness to winter bees in 3 boxes.
Second madness: I don't want to feed!

3 langstroth boxes has honey  3x25 kg =  75 kg.  holy chip.

This forum does not help beginners. This should be closed at once.

and if you read what i said "plenty of bees and stores" and what the op said "3 8 frame deeps" you'll see that you're agreeing with me by your own argument.   

Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 11, 2013, 12:43:16 pm
.
What ever, bees are wild animals and they do not follow plans.

First of all,  a beekeeper must know the year cycle of that wild bug  that he may lead bees to wanted direction.  but it  is better watch what bees do and then make own steps,  what now.

Bush's plan is really heavy. 8 packages and nucs and this and that.  for beginner that is enormous amount of boxes,  floors, covers....huge yields,  huge extracting, wintering with honey,   comb  building without  foundation.  Mission impossible.

Like bush says, he has hectic at work....no time to do that or that...

ok, lets think that all goes fine. Next spring  he has 15 hives with 2 years  experience....
A little bit hectic. Even good luck will not help.

We have a proverb: "cold coffee makes more beautifull, but even it cannot   make miracles".

.
Bush, best you can do is to find an experience beek nearby, who helps you in your mission.
.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 11, 2013, 02:44:57 pm
I have all the equipment needed for spring.  I have been reading for three years and practicing for two.  That does not make me an expert, but that does not make me clueless either.  I have been practicing foundationless beekeeping for two years and have yet to have a huge setback from going foundationless.  That however was on a smaller scale.  I am pondering using some foundation with my new hives in limited quantities.  It doubles the cost of frames, but would take out some of the uncertainty. 

I said I do not have time to drop everything and catch swarms.  I did not say that I did not have time to manage my hives.  Big difference.  With hive management I can look ahead at my schedule and plan out inspections.  What I can't do is predict when a swarm will land on a tree and then take off.  The way I figure as soon as I manage to get out there they will be gone.  I know that there are maybe a few beeks in the area, but I will have better odds at catching a swarm with a box in a tree than actually dumping a clump in a box. 

I would join the local club but it's very political.  I work most nights that they hold their meetings.  So joining is useless.  Outside of that club I don't know any other beeks.  I am not a dumb individual.  I have an advanced education.  So I can read and figure this out.  Again finski my main goals are prioritized.  My mail goal is get these hives established.  If for some reason I am only able to establish four strong hives then that is what I want.  In the future however I do want to make splits, rear queens, and make nucs. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 11, 2013, 05:19:54 pm
bush, i think your plan is ambitious and sounds more like a two year plan to me.  i don't think it can't be done, though.
in the end, it's your money and time to try it with.  if you don't try you'll never know and all the "experienced" advice in the world isn't going to be able to predict the hundreds of variables that come into play.
ultimately, i think you're on an ok path.  you have a goal and you have a working plan in place to get there.  
it may take you a year or it may take you three and you'll most likely find your plan evolving as it goes.
as far as 15 hives vs. 2 or 3 goes my thoughts are that if they are all in one yard the difference in the time it takes to manage them is going to be getting enough equipment ready for next year more than anything.  so your main challenges aside from the day to day management are actually somewhat distant.
start your 8 hives and evaluate things 30 days later and decide where to go from there.  if it were me i'd try to go into the winter with 8 strong hives plus the nucs and see how it goes.  if all that goes well you should be able to split in the spring and have the nucs to make up for any losses.
every journey begins with one step.  good luck and keep us posted.  
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: edward on March 11, 2013, 08:04:01 pm
At the end of my second year I had more than 24 hives  :-D

The beginning of the 3 year I didn't  :-\

Owning a lot of hive forces a new beekeeper to learn more and fast  :-D

Count on that there will be losses and backlashes, don't give up, learn to run and keep up  ;)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 19, 2013, 09:51:23 pm
Hate to grave dig w bit, but my question is related, and I didn't feel like making a new topic for a quick question.

When installing packages, how close can I install them? 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 19, 2013, 11:21:11 pm
close to each other?  i've only ever bought one package in my life.  i would install them right at sunset and i would think you could be within the same distance that you would set established hives at.  someone else may suggest otherwise on the spacing if they know something i don't, though.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 20, 2013, 12:15:32 am
I worry about massive drift until the bees feel anchored, especially since I really only have one long hive stand.  I also plan on hiving on some cinder blocks, but I wonder if I should set some up on different days.  Or maybe just a few hours of difference is needed.  Or maybe I should setup half at another site and move them a few days later. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 20, 2013, 07:46:13 am
They'll be fine right next to each other.  With packages any drifting will be minimal.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Course Bee on March 20, 2013, 12:05:49 pm
I agree with T-Beek on the spacing. The combination of them being new packages and it being pretty cool yet when you hive them will keep them home until they get locked in to the location. The drifting if it does occur will be during the flow.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: edward on March 20, 2013, 01:36:20 pm
Drifting can also happen if one of the queens pheromone level is low or if the bees don't except there queen, they will go to a hive with a better queen.


mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 20, 2013, 02:41:51 pm
They'll be fine right next to each other.  With packages any drifting will be minimal.

But what idea it is to keep them together?

I keep hives apart that I have space to work with hive.

For example if one hive is mad, it disturbes other hives too when they fly like rockets.

I cannot see any advantage  one punch.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 21, 2013, 06:22:44 am
Read his post Fin, he's got a stand that will occupy 2 Hives.
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 21, 2013, 04:21:07 pm
Read his post Fin, he's got a stand that will occupy 2 Hives.

Good heavens!!!  He may put them on the top each other.

This is quite near a British beekeeping forum: "I saw a dead bee on the roof. What I should do now"
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 21, 2013, 05:28:27 pm
 :lau: :lau: :lau:
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 21, 2013, 06:28:56 pm
Read his post Fin, he's got a stand that will occupy 2 Hives.

If you are referring to me, my hive stand will hold at least four with some space in between each hive.  Maybe six if spaced closely.  I am not altogether worried about drifting once they are established.  I expect that to some degree, but rather i am worried about installing 8 packages in one day and watching as the cloud of bees from shaking 8 packages decides to all sit in one hive. 

I will try doing this in the evening and maybe alternating boxes between installation so I get half done.  Give them a chance to settle in for an hour or so and do the others.  That way I am not shaking bees into boxes right next to each other. 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Finski on March 21, 2013, 06:36:03 pm



I will try doing this in the evening .  

Evening is not a right time to do that.
At night bees lay down onto ground and do not want to move. And you have lots to do with 8 hives.

One thing is what you may try is that you open the package. Then put the hive over the box and bees crawl themselves to foundations. And you had ready combs too. It takes time but they move themselves to the warm box.

Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Bush_84 on March 21, 2013, 09:18:09 pm



I will try doing this in the evening .  

Evening is not a right time to do that.
At night bees lay down onto ground and do not want to move. And you have lots to do with 8 hives.

One thing is what you may try is that you open the package. Then put the hive over the box and bees crawl themselves to foundations. And you had ready combs too. It takes time but they move themselves to the warm box.



I don't believe I have to return the boxes they come in.  I could remove the screen from one side, lay them down with the open side up, and hang the queen between the center combs above the package.  Does that sound safe?  Any chance of the queen chilling or will the bees readily move up? 
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: T Beek on March 22, 2013, 07:46:22 am
There are 'many' ways to hive a package.  Late afternoon is what I like best.

My personal favorite is;  Have your boxes ready (if memory serves you're using all mediums, right?).  With mediums, set up 2 with as much drawn comb (or foundation) filling both boxes, leaving no spaces/voids.  Place or wedge your queen cage in the bottom (I personally just release my queens but either way is fine) Set your inner cover over the 2 empty (soon to be your brood boxes) boxes with Queen safe inside and leaving the inner cover hole open.

Place the 'opened' package of bees on top of inner cover with the 'hole facing down' toward that queen you released/placed.  Put an 'empty' box over the package and cover with hive top.  You're done until tomorrow when you simply remover the empty package.  Overnight bees will assemble around their queen. 

No spraying bees with sugar water, no jarring them to the floor and/or 'dumping' them.  They WILL find their queen and will be happy in their new home.  That's about the easiest and least destructive/intrusive method I know to hive a package.

GOOD LUCK!
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: 10framer on March 22, 2013, 09:33:34 am
There are 'many' ways to hive a package.  Late afternoon is what I like best.

My personal favorite is;  Have your boxes ready (if memory serves you're using all mediums, right?).  With mediums, set up 2 with as much drawn comb (or foundation) filling both boxes, leaving no spaces/voids.  Place or wedge your queen cage in the bottom (I personally just release my queens but either way is fine) Set your inner cover over the 2 empty (soon to be your brood boxes) boxes with Queen safe inside and leaving the inner cover hole open.

Place the 'opened' package of bees on top of inner cover with the 'hole facing down' toward that queen you released/placed.  Put an 'empty' box over the package and cover with hive top.  You're done until tomorrow when you simply remover the empty package.  Overnight bees will assemble around their queen. 

this sounds like a good plan.  ^^^^  i'd be careful about releasing the queen unless the bees had been in the package for maybe 3 days.   

No spraying bees with sugar water, no jarring them to the floor and/or 'dumping' them.  They WILL find their queen and will be happy in their new home.  That's about the easiest and least destructive/intrusive method I know to hive a package.

GOOD LUCK!
Title: Re: New Plan
Post by: Course Bee on March 22, 2013, 02:13:25 pm
T-Beek's method is what I've used the last two years and it really does work well. The only thing I do differently is I dump some of the bees over the queen before I put the inner cover on to keep her warm. You do have to shake them to the bottom of the box anyway to get the can and queen out.