Thoughts about artificial insemination

[BMAC]

So lets here some thoughts about artificial insemination...

The horse breeding industry has used AI extensively to control breeding. 

So are AI queens superior or inferior to naturally mated queens?  Also how much is an AI queen worth in dollars? 

The reason I ask the second question is that it takes quite a bit of fairly expensive equipment to do AI.

[Understudy]

AI queens can be very expensive. In some cases as much as $3000 for certain breeds.

In most cases AI queens cost a bit more but it is still a volume business.

Records of who is my workers daddy are vital also.

If you are going to do AI do it for yourself then move onto doing it for others on a small scale first.  You could also do queens with open breeding methods and sell select queens that are AI.

As far as superority goes I would say you have more control over the donor sperm but queens have been breeding succesfully for a while. The bees didn't screw up the gene pool humans did.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[BMAC]

I am not convinced AI is for myself.  I am just intrigued by it.  By the process and the advantages along with the dis-advantages. 

Nobody can breed queens better than god.  However yes you can control the donor sperm.  Is that good or bad?

[Understudy]

In Florida that is good because of the AHB scare.

It is also good if you can get a good range of drones from across the nation you could end up with a better gene pool.

Sincerley,
Brendhan

[reinbeau]

AI queens can be very expensive. In some cases as much as $3000 for certain breeds.

$3,000 for a queen  :shock:  Can you imagine the horror if that queen somehow flew up while you're trying to install her?  Or the sick feeling in the pit of your stomach when you realize she'd been superceded?  My goodness  :shock:

[genesbees]

$3000.00 is kind of "out there" for an II (Instrumentally Inseminated) queen.  You can buy them from Glenn Apiaries in CA for $100 each plus shipping.  I don't know anyone who would pay $3000.00 for one, but I have seen a couple of "outfits" trying to get that.  Personally I think they are trying to "pull one over" on us.  The Instrumental Insemination class at Ohio State does not cost that much to take, and the equipment is not all that expensive (the sale of one queen at $3000.00 would probably just about cover both).

As for advantages, the biggest is the ability to blend semen from 100's of drones.  This allows for a much greater degree of genetic diversity (allele wise) so you have less chance of producing daughter queens that lay a large number of diploid drones (more commonly known as shotgun brood).  The diploids are not viable and are removed by the workers.  Use of II queens also allows you a little more control in the source of your drones.  In most cases the extra expense of the II queen is only justified if you plan to use her as either a queen mother or drone mother in your queen breeding program. 

[Michael Bush]

>So are AI queens superior or inferior to naturally mated queens?  Also how much is an AI queen worth in dollars? 

All the numbers I've seen say they are inferior as head of a hive. They are, however the only way to get pure breeding.

>s for advantages, the biggest is the ability to blend semen from 100's of drones.  This allows for a much greater degree of genetic diversity (allele wise) so you have less chance of producing daughter queens that lay a large number of diploid drones (more commonly known as shotgun brood).

Do you know of anyone doing this?  All the AI (actually Instrumental Insemination or II) I know of are only from three or four drones, not 100s.

[BMAC]

Micheal I have seen 1 study that shows AI queens are inferior.  This study was done on a very low number of colonies.  Also the breeder didnt inseminate until about 14 days after the queens emerged.  In effect this particular study I see was not a good study.  Queens in nature will breed within the first week of emerging.  Well atleast from my understanding. 

So a con about multiple drone sperm is the possible spread, or introduction of infection to the queen...  Is that worth $100?

I have heard of pure line breeder queens easily costing 1500 dollars.  That would be hard for me to choke down.  I am not up for a $1500.00 insect that can die at a moments notice.

From my understanding there is only about 3-4 people who are successful AI breeders in the US.

One of them is a professor out at UC Davis.  Sue Koby I believe is her name...

Anyway I think it might be worth the education to go to one of her courses out there.  Maybe in a few years from now...

[Understudy]

......
Anyway I think it might be worth the education to go to one of her courses out there.  Maybe in a few years from now...

Education is always a good thing. even if you don't use it right away the knowledge base gained is worthwhile.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Finsky]

.
During my 45 y beekeeping life artificial insemination has been very big mile stone. I have not done it that but splended results made in queen breeding tells about big advantages.

- calm bees
- huge laying
- non swarming
- they are like home cats

Before artificial insemination big hybrid hives were best honey producers. They were nasty, swarmy but high productive. - And some were merely nasty. It was awfull to take down boxes from those hives at the hight of face. They attached into  the smoker hole.

Then the daughters of inseminated queens were as big, as productive as those awfull giants.  But I must say that ability to resist many bee diseases did not come with insemination. It is same with cows, they are weak against diseases.

Is it so that like professional athlete hurt himself easily because he goes too often near his/her  limits.

[MBrowne]

In Florida that is good because of the AHB scare.

Whenever beekeepers try to improve mother nature, they seem to make things worse.
Example: AHB

I’m sure science will prevail but at what price.

[Finsky]

In Florida that is good because of the AHB scare.

Whenever beekeepers try to improve mother nature, they seem to make things worse.
Example: AHB

I’m sure science will prevail but at what price.

That is religion, not beekeeping.  It is better to you to stop beekeeping at once and stop teasing Mother Nature.

White man in America has been  much more dangerous than AHB. Come back quickly!

If you know, America has not Apis bees before human brought them there. Surely Apis mellifera has destroyed hundreds of natural pollinator species from nature and it is better to kill all hives in America. Nature knows!


Stop your Universities too. So you save money. USA has too many bee universities. You need not that knowledge what they produce.
.

 

[Finsky]

So a con about multiple drone sperm is the possible spread, or introduction of infection to the queen... 

 Is that worth $100?

Price developes on markets and in free competition. You pay if you want.

100$ is not much if you take larvae from it for your queen breeding. For mere honey production queen is too expencive.
Then you see, it queen was worth to 100$.  If you do not pay enough, the breeder cannot be on markets.

I have bought every year new queens and I try to reviele out, are they worth to use in queen breeding.
Thanks to heaven if I notice in time that they are not value of it. If I raise queens and I notice it in practive too late, that is not good at all. That has happened many times.

I have used inseminated queens in queen raising and I ahve been more than satisfied.

.

[Brian D. Bray]

>>If you know, America has not Apis bees before human brought them there. Surely Apis mellifera has destroyed hundreds of natural pollinator species from nature and it is better to kill all hives in America. Nature knows!

That is an assumption, since America was not explored and settled by scientist it's also an assumption that can never really be verified.  Refugees from Europe, as early as 1620 A.D. brought hives of honey bees with them.  By the time the white man mad it to the Pacific Coast, (Apis Millefera) bees were already there to greet him.

>>Stop your Universities too. So you save money. USA has too many bee universities. You need not that knowledge what they produce.

This kind of statement from someone who likes to yodel his research education?  Come, Come, Finsky, you're becoming a curmundgin.

[Finsky]

This kind of statement from someone who likes to yodel his research education?  Come, Come, Finsky, you're becoming a curmundgin.

Yes, nothing is sure in that world but, even that, I hope...

Brian, I think that you have humor at all.   If your genes are from germany, it tells why, but from Britain, no, I do not believe that.
You step to every mine what is installed to your parth.  :-D
Come, Come, BRIAN you're becoming a CUCUMBER. - is better saying, sorry to the word.

Memember Savo folk : When they open the mouth, responsibility moves to listener.

Believe me, you cannot win stupid people with claiming
.

[Finsky]

By the time the white man mad it to the Pacific Coast, (Apis Millefera) bees were already there to greet him.

From where bees have come there? To Siberia bees were moved from Europa.

But mapping of bee's genes have changed whole story of bees' origin. Thanks to your Universities and big money. It was huge job.

[reinbeau]

Believe me, you cannot win stupid people with claiming
.

You will never win, Finski, because you are constantly calling people stupid - they stop listening to you because of that.

[Finsky]

.
You will never win

[alfred]

Ok Finsky!
That is hilarious!
I will have to assume that that is you in the picture.

But people please don't get too mad at each other. I need all of you to keep posting. I need everyones knowlege and input so that I can keep my bees happy.

Alfred

[genesbees]

>So are AI queens superior or inferior to naturally mated queens?  Also how much is an AI queen worth in dollars? 

All the numbers I've seen say they are inferior as head of a hive. They are, however the only way to get pure breeding.

>s for advantages, the biggest is the ability to blend semen from 100's of drones.  This allows for a much greater degree of genetic diversity (allele wise) so you have less chance of producing daughter queens that lay a large number of diploid drones (more commonly known as shotgun brood).

Do you know of anyone doing this?  All the AI (actually Instrumental Insemination or II) I know of are only from three or four drones, not 100s.

Here is a link to Glen Apiaries where they talk about this (supermated queens):

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/breeding.html

They also discuss the single drone mating scenario in order to fix traits and what the costs are in terms of fecundity.  I would assume that since they claim that the supermated queen performs excellent in breeding programs, they are producing them as breeder queens and using the single drone mated queens internally in their breeding program.  Logically that would be the approach I would use since most beekeepers would not be satisfied with the performance of single drone mated queens.

Also if you read from Sue Coby's documentation, she states that 8 micro liters of semen are required to reliably inseminate a queen.  She further states that you will get approx. 1 micro liter of semen from a single drone.  That being the case, if there are folks out there only using 3 or 4 drones, it would be little wonder that the queens are poor performers.

[Finsky]

.
I suppose that those breeders know what they are doing because their living depends on success of they queens.
And special  queens are not intended in direct honey production?

[Michael Bush]

>And special  queens are not intended in direct honey production?

Exactly.  No reason to buy one unless you are producing queens.

[CBEE]

For what it's worth AI is not always used to improve a breed.. it is used very often to control WHEN a cow will calf ( or mare will foal ) and to prevent possible injury to the cow or mare from natural breeding not because of genetic improvement . There is also a  BIG difference in what people call improvements. Especially when you are talking horses. I just dont want people out there to think they are ALWAYS getting something better or higher quality just because of AI. I have seen AI used to keep a breed pure only and had nothing to do with any type of improvement.