Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS => Topic started by: Hopeful on November 06, 2007, 08:48:22 am

Title: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 06, 2007, 08:48:22 am
Hi,
I recetly bega in the beebiz. I have 12 hives, most on large bottom boxes, and about 45 shallow supers. I hope to add ten or so more hives next season and am  wanting to know how to go about it. The idea of meium for everything sounds appealing. But I am very confuizzled in regard to frames/foundations. it seems there are many choices and different reasons for desiring each one. I recently bought some foundation called "Duragilt", but have been told that this is the worst of the worst. I liked how easy the Duragilt was to install when putting together my new frames. But if it does not work, then what?

Which should a Newbee choose, and why? What are pros and cons?
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Cindi on November 06, 2007, 10:11:10 am
Hopeful, I can't help you with your queery.  But all I want to say to you is that I take my hat off to you to start beekeeping with 10 hives, you are going to have your hands full and that is a wonderful thing!!!  I began beekeeping with 2 of my own hives and kept 2 of my old bee pal's hives too.  That was so much work for me, I have a farm and it was so intimidating (hee, hee).  I now have 9 and it is still a lot of work.  But I find that with knowledge gained more and more, that next year I think that I could handle a few more.  These 9 colonies will be second year bees and are strong and very healthy, so I know that I will be able to split each one at least once (maybe more, hee, hee,  :)).  And I am thinking now, maybe I could handle 20 plus hives, hee, hee.  Have a wonderful day, and good luck with your new venture, you know you are gonna love the world  of our bees.  Have a beautiful and wonderful day, Cindi 

P.S.  I am very excited about learning and learning and putting all the learning and hands on experience into keeping bees, what an interesting field -- apiculture.  C.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 06, 2007, 09:25:00 pm
>The idea of meium for everything sounds appealing.

Eight frame mediums are my choice.

> But I am very confuizzled in regard to frames/foundations. it seems there are many choices and different reasons for desiring each one. I recently bought some foundation called "Duragilt", but have been told that this is the worst of the worst.

I disagree.  I've used a lot of Duragilt.  It's usually well accepted since it's wax and you don't have to wire it.  It has two downsides.  It's not the cell size I want and if the bees every chew the wax off the plastic they never rebuild it.

>I liked how easy the Duragilt was to install when putting together my new frames.

Exactly.

> But if it does not work, then what?

It will work.  In the long run you may not like it, but by the time they chewed it up you probably should swap out the comb anyway.  :)

>Which should a Newbee choose, and why?

Any plastic is an acceptance problem (in theory).  Cell size is one issue to me.  Cost is another.  Mann Lake's PF100s and PF120s (depending on what size you need) are well accepted one piece plastic frames and foundation and they are 4.95mm cell size.  I bought 3000 in the last year.

> What are pros and cons?

The best acceptance is foundationless (with some kind of comb guide).  Bees love to build their own comb.  The down sides are that if they mess up a comb they will continue the mistake across the hive.  Of course if you ever did a cut out this doesn't seem so insumountable.  The other downside is you have to be more gentle with the comb.

Next is wax.  You can buy it in 4.9mm (small cell) 5.1mm (medium cell).  You can also buy it in standard 5.4mm.  I'd buy the 4.9mm.  Bees will draw this the next best as it's wax and they like to work wax.  What they don't like is that it's already laid out and they had a different plan.  Wax is hard to keep in the frame without it sagging.  So usually it's wired.  Wiring and embedding the wires are a lot more work and more things to learn and more equipment to buy.  To do it well you need a form board, an embedder and a crimper.

Fully drawn plastic.  This is expensive and heavy but it's also permanent.  PermaComb is available in medium depth and it's about 5.0mm equivalent which is not a bad size (I prefer 4.9mm).  The bees don't have to draw it and once they start using it it's permanent drawn comb.  Acceptance issues are about the same as plastic foundation, but the advantage is that they already have the comb done once they decide to use it.  Honey Super Cell is 4.9mm and only comes in deeps.

Plastic foundation.  The issue is acceptance.  Once they start drawing on it, they will use it just like any comb.

Plastic one piece frame/foundation.  These are frames and foundation all in one.  The PF100 and PF120 at Mann Lake are cheap and small cell and I've had good acceptance.  Pierco and others are out there as well.  Mann Lake has some more expensive ones but they are large cell.  Acceptance is the main issue.  The other issue is that while you get more cells because of thin top and end bars, you also get more burr comb between the boxes because of it.


http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm#foundation
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 06, 2007, 09:36:11 pm
Michael , How long should I expect a duragilt foundation to last? When I bought my hives, some of the frames in the hives were 40 years old! That is not to say that he foundation is that old, but some of the foundation/comb was very dark, almost black. The bees seemed to store in them, but sparingly.They were the ones with the least honey in them. The heaviest supers were fairly new frames (2-5 years old) and foundations. Then there were some frames that looked practically new, and had an eliptical comb pattern in the middle, but not out to the edge. Some of the two year old to five year old frames were completely filled in, and weighed a ton. I really think 2/3 of my honey came from 1/3 of the supers.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 07, 2007, 01:15:33 am
Combs
When I bought my hives, some of the frames in the hives were 40 years old! That is not to say that he foundation is that old, but some of the foundation/comb was very dark, almost black. The bees seemed to store in them, but sparingly.They were the ones with the least honey in them. The heaviest supers were fairly new frames (2-5 years old) and foundations. Then there were some frames that looked practically new, and had an eliptical comb pattern in the middle, but not out to the edge. Some of the two year old to five year old frames were completely filled in, and weighed a ton. I really think 2/3 of my honey came from 1/3 of the supers.

Bees will often move off of old comb and go to new comb.  In a feral hive, if exposed, one can see the creep of the hive from one side of a cavity to the other as the old comb is abandoned and new comb added.  Your description of the honey deposit within your hive describes this tendency fairly well.  Pull the oldest combs in the spring and let them build new combs.  If you do a couple of frames per year your will a lot for the health of your hive, discourage swarming and absconding, and keep the brood chamber where you want it (after a few years the bees will abandon the box with the oldest combs and your brood area climbs in the hive.)
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 07, 2007, 08:05:07 am
>Michael , How long should I expect a duragilt foundation to last?

Until they decide to move the wax somewhere else or the wax moths tear it up and they clean it out.  That could be three months or thirty years.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: TwT on November 07, 2007, 09:40:06 am
I recently bought some foundation called "Duragilt", but have been told that this is the worst of the worst.


I agree with that, it is the worst foundation I ever tried to use, this is what I seen with it, they drew out correctly maybe 10 sheets out of 60 that they even worked on and wouldn't even draw out some ( just like they do on pierco) just dont work it like they do wax foundation, every sheet except for that 10 will be replaced with wax foundation, the thing about removing wax from the sheet is also true, had a couple sheet that one side was drawn out right and the other side was plastic, they removed the wax, this was the first year I tried it, worst stuff I ever used and will never try it again.....
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 07, 2007, 10:39:03 am
I recently bought some foundation called "Duragilt", but have been told that this is the worst of the worst.


I agree with that, it is the worst foundation I ever tried to use, this is what I seen with it, they drew out correctly maybe 10 sheets out of 60 that they even worked on and wouldn't even draw out some ( just like they do on pierco) just dont work it like they do wax foundation, every sheet except for that 10 will be replaced with wax foundation, the thing about removing wax from the sheet is also true, had a couple sheet that one side was drawn out right and the other side was plastic, they removed the wax, this was the first year I tried it, worst stuff I ever used and will never try it again.....

I came to that conclusion back in the 60's right after the stuff 1st hit the market.  Once bitten, twice shy.  I have vowed to stay away from anything plastic in my hives.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 09, 2007, 12:26:08 am

The best acceptance is foundationless (with some kind of comb guide).  Bees love to build their own comb. 


That is surely not true. Need good imagination to think that way.

When you play with bees, you cannot think what is their opinion.

When you have 10 hives, they need langstroth 500 foundations.


* It is 50 kg wax.
* if bees exrecete foundation wax, the 50 kg wax needs  400 kg honey.

During next 10 years, you need to renew about 10-15 foundations every year per hive and it is

10 x 10 x 15 = 1500 foundations = needed  0,8 kg honey *1500 = 1200 kg honey!

You get almost foundation wax from honey cappings when you extract your yield.



If you open the inner cover,  you surely not ask bees opinion. Why to ask when offering foundations.

If you want to play 200 years old beekeeping, and you do not care honey yield, I am wrong person to say anything about you hobby.  You need only good imagination and not so much bees.  I hate natural beekeeping methods.

But beekeeping is that bee is a wild creature. You need to know how it acts as animal. Then you try to take your own from system and it is honey. Wax you get from China if you need.

*********************
I surely feel that I am in wrong palce. I have written so often this same to Michael.
May Good bless American beekeeping!



Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 09, 2007, 07:40:15 am
>That is surely not true. Need good imagination to think that way.

It's quite easy to prove.  Give them a box with foundationless, wax, plastic etc. and see what they do first.  They will build their own comb on the foundationless first virtually every time.

Ask the bees.

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 09, 2007, 08:35:09 am
It's quite easy to prove.  Give them a box with foundationless, wax, plastic etc. and see what they do first.  They will build their own comb on the foundationless first virtually every time.

That is not question at all. I do not ask what they like my face. They don't.
The question is how big honey yield I get from hive. When you give wax foundation you save 8 kg honey for every langstroth box foundations.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 09, 2007, 09:03:48 am
Finsky,
Do we then get more yield if we use the predrawn comb,like Permacomb, or does the time it takes for them to accept it offset the gain in yield?
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Cindi on November 09, 2007, 09:58:56 am
What is being said here is that if using foundationless frames and the bees have to draw natural comb, they consume more honey for making wax than if you use wax foundation in the frames.  It takes honey to produce comb.  Simply said.  Have a wonderful and great day, beautiful life.  Cindi
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 09, 2007, 02:54:27 pm
 understand, Cindi, thank you. I guess it also takes both honey and time to make actua comb then. In other words, if it takes honey, which takes time, to produce a foundation for comb, how uch more would it save both time and honey having the combs permanently drawn?

Finsky, Does this make sense?

(BTW, I like that you show much personality on the boards. It makes it more fun.:) )
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Jerrymac on November 09, 2007, 06:50:36 pm
My take is this. All the foundation offers is the bottom of the cell. The bees have to build the walls. So the bottom of the cell is the only extra the bees have to build if there is no foundation.

With foundation the workers are separated by the foundation and so basically they are working one side at a time.
Without foundation the bees all work together and communicate better and get it done faster.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 09, 2007, 10:35:15 pm
To Finsky the bottom line is the amount of harvestable honey, anything that won't assist directly with maximum production is abhorrent.  Everything he advocates is predicated on that concept.  In Europe a beekeeper can be considered a professional with a lot fewer hives than what is considered such in America--I have a daugther-in-law and granddaughter who were both born and raised in Germany (they still live there while my son is in Iraq).  In China, and many 3rd world countries, a person with 10 hives is often considered a full time beekeeper as he makes most of his living from the bees.

I've run the experiment more than once on foundationless verses starter strips, wired foundation, un-wired foundation, and plastic foundation with the results being that the bees will build out foundationless or starter strips faster than any other comb option. It may not be the most economical from a business viewpoint but it is the best for speed or drawing comb. 

Finsky: Here in the USA we have a saying: "Don't knock it until you've tried it."
To call something into question just because it doesn't fit your operation or methods does not make them invalid.  Success/Failure to verify through replication is the proof/lie of the matter.
When I read Finsky's post I always keep his perpective in mind as to the answer he gives.  He's been known to call question some things I've proved to myself over and over because it doesn't fix his concepts.

FYI:  I'm not trying to pick a fight just explain something from my perspective.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: JP on November 10, 2007, 08:38:13 am
I use plasticell from Dadant for honey supers and most of my deeps have them as well. I have used some small cell in brood chambers as well for acceptance. In a good flow I find they will draw out like mad, bees are great at building excess stores, in fact too much a lot of times. that's why we can take honey from them. In a good flow I like the plasticell, they draw it out fast! Only drawback, its not good for cut comb. Thought I'd experiment with some Ross Rounds in the spring. Hopeful, just have fun and experiment. You see we all have our favorites here, play around, sip some wine, roll around in the honey, hug your bees and have a great day. :-D
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 10, 2007, 09:24:29 am
>That is not question at all. I do not ask what they like my face. They don't.
The question is how big honey yield I get from hive. When you give wax foundation you save 8 kg honey for every langstroth box foundations.

The more quickly the draw combs the more quickly they fill them.  The question is how quickly will they build and fill them.  It's the enthusiasm and direction with which they undertake their own combs as opposed to the hesitation and lack of purpose with which they draw foundation that makes a difference in your harvest.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm

PermaComb or Honey Super Cell may break even the first time you use them just because of hesitation to use them, but you'll have drawn comb from then on that has no acceptance problems.  And actually once you get them in the habit of using new PermaComb the rest of that flow they will take it pretty well, so it depends on the length of the flow how that pays out.  If you have a long flow and they hesitate at first to use the PermaComb but then start using it (typical) then it will pay off a lot at the back end of the long flow because now they are just using it.

It's the same for having to start with foundation (or foundationelss).  In a short flow it costs you a LOT to not have drawn comb because there is no where to put the nectar and they are not into comb drawing yet.  But in a long flow, once they are into comb drawing mode, they draw it quite quickly and stay ahead of the foragers and then I don't see a lot of difference.

I'm not the only one who thinks this:

Richard Taylor on the expense of making wax:

    "The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong. The widespread view that if the combs were used over and over, through the use of the honey extractor, then the bees would be saved the trouble of building them and could convert the nectar thus saved into honey, was only minimally correct. A strong colony of bees will make almost as much comb honey as extracted honey on a strong honey flow. The advantage of the extractor, in increasing harvests, is that honey stored from minor flows, or gathered by the bees over many weeks of the summer, can easily be extracted, but comb honey cannot be easily produced under those conditions."
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: TwT on November 10, 2007, 09:36:05 am
I use a extractor and don't care about crush and strain, the problem I see with using foundation less or starter strips is that they don't always attach comb to the sides or bottom of the frames so these frames cant be extracted, even on brood chambers, when you inspect the comb bends and could fall out of the frame when not attached (some are attached but most aren't), like I said in another post I will only use starter strips for comb honey if I don't have comb honey foundation and I don't care about going foundation less.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Cindi on November 10, 2007, 12:31:57 pm
JP
Quote
You see we all have our favorites here, play around, sip some wine, roll around in the honey, hug your bees and have a great day.

I like that!!!!  I think that is going to be a motto of mine, for life!!!!!  Have a beautiful and greatest of this day, the great health to go along with that.  Cindi
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 10, 2007, 02:15:58 pm
 :-DTo brians anrwer l give 0 points heh heh 0h boys  :l send this with my mobile from my stone cave A 
our sloqan here is -. Empty you get without asking
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 12, 2007, 05:17:46 am
To Finsky the bottom line is the amount of harvestable honey, ......... In China, and many 3rd world countries, a person with 10 hives is often considered a full time beekeeper as he makes most of his living from the bees.

Yes but in Finland we need over  500 hives to be professional beekeeper. Look map.
Are you saying that I need badly every honey kilo from my hives?

Finnish companies make fastest paper engines in the world and best mobile phones in the world. This is expencive country and 10 hives i nothing in our life.  Cold climate, long distances and need of energy makes this expencive.

Quote

Finsky: Here in the USA we have a saying: "Don't knock it until you've tried it."

Sad to hear that. We have not such limitations. We need not to be Miss Unisversums and still we may give opinion on ladies!

We have many people and in lake district of Finland we have special "tribe" of Finnish people Savo folks. Whey have quick tonque.

We have saying:" When Savo man opens his mouth, responsibilyty moves to listener."
An exmaple: We wisited  in local Savo street department and I asked how many workers you have in deparmtment.
Answer: "We have some suspects one person but we are not sure yet".

Quote
When I read Finsky's post I always keep his perpective in mind as to the answer he gives.  He's been known to call question some things I've proved to myself over and over because it doesn't fix his concepts.

Come down to Globe Brian!  I have university a researsher education in biogical sciences with top graduate. I think that you are not able to valaute my knowledge or sayings. I have noticed that you have troubles to understand written researshes. That is why you try your self. He he.

It is better to rebember. I have borned one mile from Savo border.  You have got Brian!


(http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-top-ten-countries/world-top-ten-quality-of-life-map.gif)

.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Cindi on November 12, 2007, 10:10:30 am
Finsky, you speaking of Savo caught my interest.  Googled what this word means, some trivia, I like trivia, from the Wikipedia encyclopedia:

The Savo dialect of Finnish is the largest dialect of the Finnish language. It is an Eastern dialect, developed from the original Karelian dialect of Finnish settlers, and is spoken in the region of Savo and around the area in Kainuu, in Ostrobothnia, in middle Finland, in northern Finnish Karelia and also by Ingrian Finnish people. It is rather different from standard (Western) Finnish for several reasons.

    * It has re-developed palatalized consonants from consonant + i, which is denoted by digraphs with a 'j', e.g. <kotj> /kotʲ/, <moottorj> /moottorʲ/ (standard Finnish <koti>, <moottori>).
    * Some long vowels and diphthongs have shifted with respect to the standard language; thus, where the standard language has a diphthong, Savo may have a long vowel, and vice versa.


Have a wonderful and beautiful day, greatest of health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 13, 2007, 11:20:22 pm
Finsky,

I've been around the world: Europe, The Middle East, The Far East, and the South Pacific.  I've learned a smattering of language in every country I spent more than a few weeks in: Spanish, Turkish, Japanese, Thai, Tugolog, & Chinook Jargon has been passed down for 4 generations.  I once meant 2 exchange students who came into the restuarantI was running, one from Turkey, the other from Japan.  I spoke to them both in their own languages and spent the next hour violating the rules of the exchange program by telling them both what certain words from their native language were in the other person's language.  They both insisted on having their picture taken with me as they hadn't expected to find such a cultured gentleman in the USA.

I have found that a person does not need a college degree to be a genius (i.e. Bill Gates).  That just because a person has a college degree doesn't mean he's educated or enlightened.  I've meant a number of narrow minded, research doctorate, educated idiots that couldn't see beyond the end of their noses.

You're belittling makes you seem like the latter.  Yes, you know a lot about cold weather beekeeping, but you seem bent on ridiculing things that I and others, like Michael Bush, have proven to ourselves through repetition time and time again.  A true educator never stops learning, nor does he pish-posh ideas he hasn't debunked through experiment himself.

A few sayings I had passed down from my Grand & Greatgrandparents:  "A narrow mind as no room for new information," and, "A man who claims to know everything, doesn'r recognize his own ignorance."

>>Are you saying that I need badly every honey kilo from my hives?
Exactly, from your postings on this forum that is precisely the impression I've developed. 
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 13, 2007, 11:30:38 pm
Finsky,


Brian, you are right! - But you have taken too big job: you try to teach me. Am I right?
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 13, 2007, 11:33:52 pm


>>Are you saying that I need badly every honey kilo from my hives?
Exactly, from your postings on this forum that is precisely the impression I've developed. 


Brian, you are great person! But problem is yours, not mine.

.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 14, 2007, 12:34:19 am
>>Are you saying that I need badly every honey kilo from my hives?
Exactly, from your postings on this forum that is precisely the impression I've developed. 
Brian, you are great person! But problem is yours, not mine.

Sorry, but I see it as the other way around.  The only things I'm intolerent of is lactose and apples--both food allergies.  Everything else I'll let bygones be bygones, even if I disagree.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 14, 2007, 01:06:51 am

Sorry, but I see it

OK, I was worried, but you see however.  :-D
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 14, 2007, 09:33:29 am
 I hold no degree whatsoever, and have come to the conclusion that while degrees are good to have, they are nothing more than an indication that you have learned someone else's opinion.

With that said, can we get back to the issue?


 I like the bees and think they are fascinating creations of the Lord, equipped with far more intelligence and order than most people, including myself, realize. I am saddened whenever I have hurt one or when I have seen them hurt each other (sounds silly , but true). But I make no apologies for wanting "every kilo" I can get from my hives (leaving the bees enough for themselves, too). If there is a way to increase the yield in my hives, with firm integrity, I am all for it. If there is a way to save money and time in an honest and forthright way, then please share.

The point is, I will be needing to make decisions regarding foundation, frames, hives, etc., before next spring and will be adding at least ten more hives then, maybe up to twenty, that will be located about 60 miles from my home.
I need some education on these matters, and thus am asking people who have done this for years. As I look at my own foundations, I have decided by personal choice that I do not like the look, feel or smell of old black comb on rotting frames. The bees do not seem to like it either and I have seen only uncapped "last resort" honey or nectar in these frames. These frames are going into the burn pile.

Now, I have heard that duragilt and other plastic foundation, even wax coated, are not so great, but they are very easy and convenient. At the same time I hear that with wax founations I have to clean and boil and everything, then take them apart and clean further and then attach new foundation, with crosswiring, etc. I am not sure I have that kind of time or motivation. I teach school, farm 10 acres, raise kids and teach sabbath school on the weekends. However, if the plastic-coated is really that bad, and the bees will not use it, then I have to make a hard choice here and late nights might be view.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Kathyp on November 14, 2007, 02:42:28 pm
first figure out what kind of hive product you want.  extracted honey, comb honey, wax, etc.  for whatever your final product will be, you may use different foundation management options.

i like comb honey.  for me, several supers of foundationless are good.  i think the comb honey is better if the bees draw the entire thing.  if you want to use an extractor, you will need either plastic or wired foundation.  with the wired wax, you do not need to do all that work.  you just buy the foundation and pop it in the frame.  i use pins to stabilize the sides but the bees end up attaching most of it anyway.  i do not wire to the frame.  to much work!

if you are going to use crush and strain, which is the cheapest and easiest if you only have a few hives, you may buy unwired foundation or let them draw their own.

for all things KISS is my motto  :-)
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 14, 2007, 02:53:04 pm
Thank you, fellow Oregonian ( I lived there most of life before moving to OK). That is kind of what I was after. I get so many opinions and some of them sound like two hives would be a full time job! I was not aware that you could install wax foundation without tearing the wedge board out, removing the nails, and renailing it into place. I think there are different kinds of foundations and frames, groove board and wedge board tops and two or one piece ottom board. Which is better and easier to use?
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Paraplegic Racehorse on November 14, 2007, 03:01:06 pm
Here's my experience with foundationless combs: The bees build the comb without a problem or any guidance. However, build the comb crooked unless you have something to guide them. This year, I will continue to use foundationless frames, BUT each box will have at least one frame with some "straight" comb for the bees to guide from. If I cannot achieve that goal, some starter strips will be used. Said starter strips will not hang into the comb area by much more than five or six millimeters because I don't necessarily need the bees to build comb in the embossed cell sizes; I am content to let them build whatever size they think they need at whatever time they build the comb. Let's face it, the bees have been keeping themselves a lot longer than we have been keeping them. Their own wisdom can guide my decisions so long as my own goals are met. Here's hoping for 100-150kg/colony of whole-comb honey (incl. wax weight) this year!
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Kathyp on November 14, 2007, 03:21:28 pm
you do have to pop the wedge strip out, but that is easy.  a couple of useful tools....the wedge goes back in easily with a hand staple gun.  also, if you are going to use wood frames and build your own boxes, tops, etc. a good pneumatic nailer/stapler is a must. both tools are inexpensive and save much time!  of course, i am assuming you have a compressor......

where did you live in Oregon?  i have a Boring address, but i am actually about 10 ft out of Sandy.  :-)
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 14, 2007, 03:33:34 pm
My shop and honey house are not set up yet (even though the basic 30X50 building is built), so I do not have those tools you mentioned just now.

I was born in Seattle but lived most of my life in the west suburbs of Portland (Beaverton, Hillsboro, Aloha, Tigard, etc.) as well as Grants Pass. Before moving here I lived in Salem for 1 year. Loving Oklahoma's sunshine, cheap land and down to earth country folk who wave at you when you drive by even though they do not know you from Adam. I could never own the house and land that I do had I stayed there. Lived my whole life in the NW and never got used to all that rain and grey days. Never liked Portland's pretentiousness. But Oregon is still a beautiful place (Thanks to all that rain!), and the mountains, especially outside of Bend, are awesome. No mountains to speak of in OKlahoma; a few small ones, but would be considered foothills compared to the Cascades. A part of me will always be an Oregonian.

(P.S. -Go Ducks!)
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Kathyp on November 14, 2007, 04:06:39 pm
Quote
(P.S. -Go Ducks Beavers!)
   :evil:

there are a lot of expenses when you start up.  it's worth checking back here and asking about stuff before you buy it.  also, i have gotten some great deals buying out people who are out of the business.  i got tons of boxes and frames and an extractor from one guy, and foundation, boxes, frames, and a hot knife from a lady who's beekeeper husband had died.  both deals were found on craigs list.  i also got many calls for hive removal from posting on same.  some turned out not to be  honey bees, and some were in structures that i was not prepared to tackle.

since you have time, you can put the word out and see what you can pick up.  my bulk deals have set me up for years, and at a fraction of the cost of buying new!
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 14, 2007, 06:30:50 pm
Thanks for the advice, Kathy. Actually I am also for the Beavs and usually more so than for the Ducks. I said "Go Ducks!" because they have a chance to do something no Oregon team has ever done, win the national championship (if they don't choke). They are currently #2 in the BCS standings. Personally, I went to Boise State, but having been in Oregon most of my life I root for the Beavers and Ducks over the Broncos.

Go Beavs and Ducks! (and don't forget the PSU Vikings too!)

Here's a joke you may like if you are a Beaver.

Q- How do you get a UO grad started in small business?

A- Give him a big business and wait five years. :D
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 14, 2007, 08:25:32 pm
>you do have to pop the wedge strip out, but that is easy.

Actually you don't.  Just put the foundation in and run some wax in the groove.  I never break them out.  I also don't purposefully buy them with the wedge, but I get them from time to time one way or the other.

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 14, 2007, 11:10:45 pm
Michael , do you mean to melt some in a pan or something and pour it on the newly installed foundation?
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 14, 2007, 11:32:55 pm
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=231
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: tillie on November 14, 2007, 11:40:37 pm
Dadant's wax tube fastener doesn't come with directions.  If you'd like to see how to use one, there's a video on my blog (http://http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/04/how-to-use-wax-tube-fastener_26.html) (made after I took one apart trying to figure out how in the world to get the wax in it.!)

Linda T in Atlanta
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 15, 2007, 04:40:52 am
.
To get foundations to build has no difficulties if you put foundations into the hive during heavy nectar flow.
Bees build combs in few days and fill cells with nectar. Bees do not build empty combs for the future or for they happiness.

When nectar flow ceases, bees stop their comb building. That is natural system and I use it. I have so much combs that I do not force them build combs in early spring or before autumn. In early summer comb building prevent swarming, but if bees do not build, it is Ok to me.

I use partly drawn foundation on sides of hive during winter. In ealy summer I wait that bees start to draw those combs before I offer them new foundations. Many beekeepers think that bees must draw combs because beekeeper wants it happen. Why?

When you feed wintersyrup, bees do not cap combs if they are not full. That is their natural system. They do nothing for fun except sting me.

I have not met any difficulties in combs building.   If I forget frame from the hive, on next visit I will meet free comb there, and mostly drone combs. If they have not food flow, I meet an empty gap.

This is an ultimate example:

I moved my 3 best hives to the fireweed pastures. Pasture was inside half mile distance, 20 hehtares tall fireweed. Nectar runned down from flowers after night.

In picture you see a hive, where I put 3 boxes foundations because i have not drawn combs.
In 3 weeks each hive brought 240 lbs capped honey and drawed those 3 boxes too.

3 miles away I had 4 hives beside 30 hehtares rape. It was dry hot weather and sandy soil. Rape did not exrecet nectar musch. Bees got 1/5 of yield compared to the fireweed pastures and they build partly half a box foundations.

If it had rained well, things woud be in another way but it did not rained.

What then. Nothing. That is beekeeping and I don't see any difficulties in this issue. I do not take headace from that. Next year will come.

Look the hive on the carry. It is full of bees 7 boxes. (Year 2005)
This summer was rainy and same pasture gived very small yield. Perhaps 80 lbs per hive.

(http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/Kuva_036.jpg)
.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: ooptec on November 15, 2007, 01:17:03 pm
Hey Finsky,

Was surprised in your map that the Psychotic States rated quite a bit more highly than Finland, or a bunch of other places I wouldn't have put them above being born there and lived for awhile till fortunately escaped. ..... go figure

Tho it was from 2003-04 and a lot has changed since then, Wonder what their criteria is??

cheers

peter
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Kathyp on November 15, 2007, 02:08:32 pm
Quote
Tho it was from 2003-04 and a lot has changed since then

yes....it's gotten even better!
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: ooptec on November 15, 2007, 02:24:12 pm
bitter or better     lol
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 15, 2007, 03:13:50 pm
, Wonder what their criteria is??


What I know is that you have better calculators.

.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Kathyp on November 15, 2007, 03:41:24 pm
Quote
What I know is that you have better calculators.


they are made in china!   :evil:
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: TwT on November 15, 2007, 03:45:15 pm
Quote
What I know is that you have better calculators.


they are made in china!   :evil:

about everything in this country is made in china  :(
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 15, 2007, 04:14:12 pm
calculators. are made in china!   :evil:

Jack Kilby was named, along with three Russian scientists, as winners of the 2000 Nobel Prize in physics for their work in laying the foundations of information technology. . Kilby, of Texas Instruments, won the award for his part in the invention of the integrated circuit and as a co-inventor of the pocket calculator.

Jack Kilby grew up in Great Bend, Kansas and joined TI in Dallas in 1958. During the summer of that year, working with borrowed and improvised equipment, he conceived and built the first electronic circuit in which all of the components, both active and passive, were fabricated in a single piece of semiconductor material half the size of a paper clip.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Kathyp on November 15, 2007, 05:17:52 pm
i just pulled the 3 calculators that i have sitting here.  (i have 3 because they are cheap  :-)) one is assembled in Taiwan, and two are made in China.  i think it's nice that we share inventions  :-).

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: TwT on November 16, 2007, 04:20:14 pm
its like a lot of thing, invented in the states then made elsewhere so share holders make a dollar!!!!!
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Old Timer on November 19, 2007, 08:08:30 pm
What is being said here is that if using foundationless frames and the bees have to draw natural comb, they consume more honey for making wax than if you use wax foundation in the frames.  It takes honey to produce comb.  Simply said.  Have a wonderful and great day, beautiful life.  Cindi

It's estimated it takes 8 pounds of honey to make one pound of wax. 500,000 flakes of wax go into one pound. Ten sheets of deep foundation weigh about 1.5 pound or less. The bees can save 12 pound of honey if you give them foundation. But if you break that down into the weight of the nectar collected to make the honey, you're looking at somewhere around 50 pounds +/- of nectar. That's a lot of work to build what could be foundation. If the bees build their own comb without foundation, the bottom of the cells is thinner than foundation and won't take this much nectar to build it but it does require extra work.

As far as foundation, it is all a matter of preference. I like natural comb, the queen likes it better too. I like crimped wire wax foundation. I've never had any problems out of duragilt or plasticell. Foundation is good if you are trying to get a certain size cell drawn. Plastic frames are good for instant regression and other purposes like wax moths and shb. I do recommend for you try a few different ways in order to see which you prefer. You're the one that needs to be happy with the decisions you make about how you manage your bees.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 19, 2007, 08:30:10 pm
The bottom line is how fast do they build the comb so there is somewhere to put the nectar?  They build it faster without the foundation.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 19, 2007, 08:55:30 pm
Thanks Old Timer. Good and well reasoned answer. However, my situation is a bit unique in that even though I have now only 12 hives, and space for another 20 or so next spring. I am committed to making this work as a sideline business and am investing accordingly. Also, I have my investment money now and must be spent before the end of the year. My plan is to eventually expand to 100 hives, but beginning with about 30 next season. Even still, I need to buy my 85 or so hives now, regardless of when I place them, because now is when the money is available. That is also why I am buying extracting and processing equipment to support 100 hives and not the 12 I have now.

This leaves no time for experimentation. I am wanting to go with as few chemicals as possible so maybe that means Pierco or something.
Michael B. mentioned a foundation from Mann Lake. Is that a plastic foundation or a plastic drawn comb/frame combo?

What I would rally like would be for a sideliner to sell his stuff to me. But most of these guys are in Timbuktu (or Nebraska :) ) and many of them want to sell their junk, while keeping the good stuff for themselves.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 19, 2007, 09:30:50 pm
>This leaves no time for experimentation. I am wanting to go with as few chemicals as possible so maybe that means Pierco or something.
Michael B. mentioned a foundation from Mann Lake. Is that a plastic foundation or a plastic drawn comb/frame combo?

PF100s (deep) and PF120s (medium) are 4.95mm.  They are one piece frame and foundation:
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page87.html
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/MannLakeFramesPF120-498.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/MannLakeFramesPF100-498.jpg
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 20, 2007, 05:30:42 am
Looks like a winner, Michael. I have read that I should not mix wood with plastic frames, but if these are going in all new hives then that should not be a problem. Any down side to these that you know of?
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 20, 2007, 07:42:31 am
The bottom line is how fast do they build the comb so there is somewhere to put the nectar?  They build it faster without the foundation.


I cannot get this idea at all. If bees have not space to store nectar, they fill brood area.Then they swarm. When you have hives, keep always emty combs inside hive to take in what ever nectar flow.  I do not know, how often it happens that bottle neck is speed of cell building. It have not come into my mind before. 

Of course bees make quicker foundations because they need to exrecete was half of natural amount. Wax making is big job to bees which are in that age. Wax bilders are 2-4 weeks old bees.

Bees draw foundation extremely fast when nectarflow is heavy.  I have never seen that drawing combs will hinder honey yield.
THis whole story is from air.

AND when you are experienced beekeeper, you give to hive all the time NEW EMPTY COMBS AND YOU EXCTRACT QUICKLY CAPPED HONEY THAY THEY WILL CARRY MORE.

WHEN BEES STORE HONEY AND CAPP IT, THEY NEED 2 BOXES MORE WHERE PUT NECTAR TO RIPPEN. SO TO GET ONE SUPER HONEY, COLONY NEED 2 SUPERS. OTHERWISE BEES STORE NECTAR INTO BROOD AREA, THEY SLOW DOWN WORKING AND START TO SWARM.

IF NECTAR LAYER IS TOO THICH IN COMS, WATER ELIMINATION WILL BE SLOWER.

Sometimes I have had situation that I must extract big hives every week. Unless they will be filled and they swarm.
Colony just leave the hive and in queen cups  you se only egg.

**********

BOTTOM LINE: to give top bars is not an answer to heavy nectar flow. The answer is totally opposite. Give to bees ready combs and extract them.
'


.
 

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 20, 2007, 07:44:40 am
HERE YOU HAVE THE ANSWER

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

I have showed this link every year here. It is from Canada.


Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 20, 2007, 08:12:40 am
>Looks like a winner, Michael. I have read that I should not mix wood with plastic frames, but if these are going in all new hives then that should not be a problem. Any down side to these that you know of?

The PF100 and 120s are very cheaply made.  They are cheap to buy as well.  I haven't broken any yet, so the plastic seems pretty resilient even if they are light.  They seem to work fine.  In a few of the boxes if I push them to one end they fall in.  That's frustrating, but it doesn't happen in most boxes.  They are well accepted.  In bulk they are less than a dollar a piece.  I bought 2800 of them all together this last year.

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Cindi on November 20, 2007, 10:11:08 am
Finsky, this is a good site information.  I have studied this before.

This man who compiled the information, along with others, Adony Melanthopoulus, was one of the speakers at the Bee Masters short course, that I took at our local university.  He is a young, energetic man who loves to study the bees, and has performed numerous studies of great degrees.  He is held in high esteem, and is a wonderful person.  I enjoyed his exuberance for the honeybees and life in general.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, enjoy life.  Cindi 
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Old Timer on November 20, 2007, 10:28:20 am
Finsky, I agree that drawn comb is the fastest and easiest way to get more honey and to start a colony out with. The bees will fill between four to five empty supers with nectar to get one super of honey so you should use more than two supers of drawn comb for supers if you have it. This will intensify their hoarding instinct and give plenty of room for nectar. I'll always divide what comb I have, usually four supers per colony, between my hives to give them an equal chance. They fill it fast and I harvest early and as often as I need to keep them with empty comb to fill. I've extracted as many as five times before during a good year by using drawn comb. I haven't had a year like that in about 8 years, but it has happened. The first step is having drawn comb, hopeful is at the first step.
I do think that you miss the point that Hopeful has no drawn comb and is wanting to start about 85 new hives. He has no choice but to use foundation or starter strips or plastic frames. He does not want to use chemicals in his hives so it probably would not be a good idea to buy comb from someone else. The only way he can get comb is to have his bees make it.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 20, 2007, 10:39:29 am
I do think that you miss the point that Hopeful has no drawn comb and is wanting to start about 85 new hives.

In heading it was talked about foundations.......


To get 85 hives is quite a job. Stores, hives, selling honey, how you stand it fhysically, swarming, places where to put hives. To start beekeeping from zero to 80 hives without basic knowledge. To get combs is smallest problem in this system, if problem at all. --- And ask advices from this forum! HUH, that is huge!

Bees make as much combs as they need. That is not problem.

It is better to go help some professional beekeeper and he tell when working, how business works. This forum with it's altenatives is real jungle.

To keep 80 hives in production is big job to and not hobby any more.

"He want not use chemicals" What does it means?  Not soap when you wash hands or...- for example we are allowed to use oxalic acid in ekological beekeeping because it is least harmfull to consumer.

80 hives produce quite an heap capping wax. Best way to use it is to circulate as foundations.

When I uncap my honey yield, I nearly get my wax needs from uncapping wax.  It pay not much when I give wax to maker and he gives foundations to me.  And to make own foundations is one alternative.





Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Old Timer on November 20, 2007, 11:35:43 am
Finsky, he is in for some heavy duty learning!!! Taking care of 100 hives is a big difference than taking care of 12. When you have that many you should have them in at least 5 outyards in my area. Only so much forage and if there is too many bees they all suffer. When you have these outyards you have to do a lot of driving sometimes to check on them, and the bees may suffer due to lack of care like when the weather does not cooperate when you are off from work. When you forget something you need you have to go back home to get it. Having outyards is not as easy as keeping them in your backyard. Yeah, if he gets up to that many, the learning curve will be a steep one for sure!!! Hopeful, I do wish you the best in your endeavor.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 20, 2007, 02:38:14 pm
.
If you have 80 hives and you take from every hive 2 full super off, total weight is 3200 lbs.
You must lift them many times, perhaps 4 times. You need muscles and no injuries in backbone.

OK, finaly it is easy. You train your system that you are able to handle those hives during one day. Of course the day is 16 hours long. Then you are ready to add hive number to 700 hives  8-)
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: rdy-b on November 20, 2007, 09:48:26 pm
Looks like a winner, Michael. I have read that I should not mix wood with plastic frames, but if these are going in all new hives then that should not be a problem. Any down side to these that you know of?
    the down side is when you get a power uncapper the plastic frames dont perform like wood bound frames this summer i switched about 2/3of my frames out -that was costly not to mention-they where all white wax from honey suppers-took resources to get new frames drawn out for a second time-other than that they where fine-for a while RDY-B
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 21, 2007, 01:21:41 am
! Taking care of 100 hives is a big difference than taking care of 12. When you have that many you should have them in at least 5 outyards in my area.

We need here 10 - 25 yards. Our yield season is about 1 month long. Then you should get 100 - 200 lbs honey per hive.

Good hives or what ever, but honey comes from GOOD PASTURES and tasty honey from tasty plants.

The most think that good hives bring the honey yield but it is good pastures.

YOu may get same yield with 40 hives with carefull pasture selection as with 80 hives.

I have tried to learn to choose pastures,  but every year selection makes me surprise.

*************

I think that it is better learn to take good yields with fewer hives and then multiplye the concept. Merely the cost of 80 hives is huge compared to 40 hives.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: pdmattox on November 21, 2007, 06:43:40 pm
When you increase to that size finsky you don't pick them up much by hand anymore(to time consuming), They will be handled on pallets with a fork lift or skid steer with pallet forks on it. the only hanling will be to put on pallet and then off. I think you can put 68 supers on a pallet.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Hopeful on November 21, 2007, 07:01:30 pm
I think I've been misundertsood. I did not mean to say that I was adding 85 hives next year. I am only planning on adding up to 20 next year, but am lanning on growing to 100 within four years or so, depending on how fast I learn and how well things go. I am planning on buying many hives and keeping them in storage until I am ready for them. But I also agree that doing so will eliminate opportunities if good deals come up. I was trying to avoid doing the whole Frankenstien thing with the hives and having some of this and some of that.

What I know for certain is that right now I have 12 and they are a piece of cake under even the worst circumstances (at least so far). I am planning on putting up to twenty on the 500 acre farm that a friend asked me to put bees on next spring. So  in reality, I am for sure going to put up about 20 more hives. These will be new hives with new bees. It is these hives that I am primarily asking about for foundation.

Hope this helps
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: annette on November 21, 2007, 08:28:23 pm
I saw the Mann Lake Plastic foundation that Michael Bush mentions. I visited a beekeeper here from this forum just a few days ago and he bought all the frames for a new hive he will start next spring.

They really looked good to me. I like the idea of starting a new hive on all small cell and having them regressed right away. It helps to solve the mite problems which could take up a lot of your time if you have so many hives.

I am in a similar dilema as you are. I only have 2 hives, and have been just placing foundationless frames with starter strips into my hives here and there. I can not seem to make up my mind what I want to do regarding the honey supers. I am pretty sure I will let them make their own wax in the brood supers and eventually they will be regressed, but I still like to use my extractor for the honey and so I will probably purchase some frames from Mann Lake for the honey supers.

Good Luck on your decision
Annette
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Old Timer on November 22, 2007, 09:42:52 am
Anette, letting them make natural comb will not cause them to regresses to small cell. Natural comb and small cell are two different things. If you would like your bees to regress use the PF120 or PF100 frames from Mann Lake or you can use small cell foundation.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 22, 2007, 03:35:48 pm
I guess it also takes both honey and time to make actua comb then.

Finsky, Does this make sense?


I have not met any problem with time or comb building. All hives are able to build combs as much as they need them. AND, they try to make more than they need. Every gap is full of burr.

************

When I started 40 years ago, I bought tens of swarms and started from zero. I put swarms together to make 8 lbs colonies. That size colonies draw during first week 2 langstroth box foundation with the help of syrup. - No problems.

*****************

5 years ago I lost most of my hives and I burned most of my brood frames. I have no troubles when I make bees to make new combs, 3 boxes per hive per 1 month. I followed MAAREC's advice: give foundations during heavy nectar flow.

But the cost of renewing combs was huge cost, frames and foundations.  - I got splendid yield on that year and bees made so much combs as nectar come in. 3 box new combs to big hive is no problem.


When I have got swarm, and it is rainy weather, bees do not make much combs because they save food to stay alive

If I feed them with syrup, they make 10 frame's combs ready during 7 days.

If big hive 5-6 boxes get a lot nectar, they build combs  2-3 box per week.  I have not seen problem in this.

I do no understand thinking "bees like". Bees do not make "like things". They just follow they instincts and try to survive

Beekeeper like many thing and want bees like same things.


Bee make combs only if they need them for brood or honey storing. If bees do not cap food, it means that cells are not full.

Many beekeepers want that bees draw combs even in case where bees try to save food over bad weathers.

*************

If some hive is eager to draw combs, I take half made combs away and give new foundations. But it stress too much one colony and I do that only once.

***********

Bees do like to draw foundations if you put them between brood frames. And sometimes not.It only breaks the brood are and bees have difficulkties to keep brood war.   But it has no meaning in whole beekeeping.

.



Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on November 22, 2007, 03:55:19 pm
I saw the Mann Lake Plastic foundation that Michael Bush mentions.

Odd alternatives. Top frame of plastic but not normal foundations? - Plastic is expensive at least here.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: pdmattox on November 22, 2007, 06:13:55 pm
A assembled wood frame with plastic pierco foundation ready to put into the hive sells for about $1.60 us. I can't beat the price.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: rdy-b on November 22, 2007, 06:34:34 pm
A assembled wood frame with plastic pierce foundation ready to put into the hive sells for about $1.60 us. I can't beat the price.
      I second that recommendation- you will look back on this and smile ;) RDY-B
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: TwT on November 22, 2007, 09:07:55 pm
I am getting assembled frames .55 each plus getting my foundation from Kelly, comes up to $1.27 each, thats total for a frame and foundation and the frames are already assembled  :D ( glued and nailed) all I have to do is install foundation , oh and did I mention the frames are already assembled BAHAHAHAHA!!!!! , THIS KINDA BEEKEEPING COULD SPOIL ME  :-P  :evil:
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: rdy-b on November 22, 2007, 09:28:31 pm
I am getting assembled frames .55 each plus getting my foundation from Kelly, comes up to $1.27 each, thats total for a frame and foundation and the frames are already assembled  :D ( glued and nailed) all I have to do is install foundation , oh and did I mention the frames are already assembled BAHAHAHAHA!!!!! , THIS KINDA BEEKEEPING COULD SPOIL ME  :-P  :evil:
   you left out the important part :) where can i get such a deal? RDY-B
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: annette on November 22, 2007, 10:09:03 pm
Anette, letting them make natural comb will not cause them to regresses to small cell. Natural comb and small cell are two different things. If you would like your bees to regress use the PF120 or PF100 frames from Mann Lake or you can use small cell foundation.

I have much to learn about regressing them, but I know that letting them make their own comb is the start. I will have to learn as I go.

Yes I do know about the Mann Lake frames for instant regression and I am seriously considering them. I will have to make some decisions soon.

Thanks for the info
Annette
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on November 26, 2007, 09:28:30 pm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

In my experience natural cell will regress them.  It sometimes takes a turnover or two.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: rantcliff on December 10, 2007, 09:45:16 pm
It is amazing that after all this discussion I could still have a question - but ...

If I am understanding correctly (which could be a big If), the whole issue of cell size/ regression has to do with the brood area and not the honey supers - true?

If true, than it seems like any size could be used for the honey supers - true?

Also, if he has no comb, then we are only talking about what kind of foundation (foundationless, wax, plastic) and not cell size or the benefits of using comb.  And it appears that everyone has an opinion :)

So, I am actually in the same situation, just starting out, no drawn comb to use.

So for my honey supers - can I just buy ten empty frames, perhaps put a starter strip on each one, and then put all ten in the super and then expect the bees to draw out ten frames of comb and fill them?

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: johnnybigfish on December 10, 2007, 10:32:24 pm
Hi Rantcliff,
 I'm new at bees, just started this past spring. I dont know anything about regression, or cell size. I did get some honey this season tho.
 I used EZ frames from Dadants in my bottom boxes and also my honey supers. They were brand new, right out of the box.
 My bees built comb on them right off the bat. It took awhile for them to fill out. At any rate, the bees filled the honey supers as well as the brood boxes. I think my only mistake was using 9 frames instead of 10. I dont know what a starter strip is but I do know I used wax coated empty frames and they worked.
 At this point in time, Im looking through the bee mags.to take the step up to real frames and Plasticell. I plan on starting more hives this spring and the cost of having to build frames and put foundation in them is tons cheaper than buying the EZ Frames. A friend of mine who does bees told me that the only problem he knows of with the all plastic frames and foundation(EZ FRames) is that the "Ears" break off after awhile.
 I found out last spring that once you start doing bees people will call you to see if you'll come and get the swarms in their yards, trees, eaves, and all kinds of places! And before you know it, you need places to put these bees! This is why I'm trying to cut the costs of my frames and foundation,so I can get more bees!
your friend,
john
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 10, 2007, 11:51:10 pm
It is amazing that after all this discussion I could still have a question - but ...
If I am understanding correctly (which could be a big If), the whole issue of cell size/ regression has to do with the brood area and not the honey supers - true?

True, small cell regressiion is only necessary in the brood chamber.  The idea being that the larger the cell the more mites can inhabit the cell and reproduce within it.  That's why drone cells are more desireable breeding grounds for varroa, the cells are larger AND the incubation period is longer so even more mites can be produced within the drone cells.

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If true, than it seems like any size could be used for the honey supers - true?

True again, there are basically 3 sizes of cells in a hive, worker brood comb, drone brood comb, and storage comb which can be even larger than drone comb or between worker or drone comb in size.

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Also, if he has no comb, then we are only talking about what kind of foundation (foundationless, wax, plastic) and not cell size or the benefits of using comb.  And it appears that everyone has an opinion :)

No, cell size is critical on the ability of the varroa mite to reproduce adequately.  The smaller the cell the less desireable the cell is (especially when displaced with a pupae) for varroa reproduction.  The larger the cell, the more mites it can hold as well as the pupae, the longer the incubation period (drone comb) the more mites can be grown within the cell.  basically; Apis C. is smaller and Apis C. drone comb is closer to Apis M. worker brood comb so the varroa can reproduce in the Apis M. worker comb and can really go to town in the Apis M. drone comb.

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So, I am actually in the same situation, just starting out, no drawn comb to use.
So for my honey supers - can I just buy ten empty frames, perhaps put a starter strip on each one, and then put all ten in the super and then expect the bees to draw out ten frames of comb and fill them?

Yes, it works for brood or honey comb.  I use foundationless frames myself and have started packages on empty frames.

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on December 10, 2007, 11:53:34 pm
>If I am understanding correctly (which could be a big If), the whole issue of cell size/ regression has to do with the brood area and not the honey supers - true?

If there is a distinction between your supers and your brood (like a queen excluder) then it's true.  If there is not, then what is a super?

>If true, than it seems like any size could be used for the honey supers - true?

If you use an excluder (and I don't).

>So for my honey supers - can I just buy ten empty frames, perhaps put a starter strip on each one, and then put all ten in the super and then expect the bees to draw out ten frames of comb and fill them?

Of course.

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Scadsobees on December 11, 2007, 10:08:50 am
It is amazing that after all this discussion I could still have a question - but ...

If I am understanding correctly (which could be a big If), the whole issue of cell size/ regression has to do with the brood area and not the honey supers - true?

If true, than it seems like any size could be used for the honey supers - true?

Also, if he has no comb, then we are only talking about what kind of foundation (foundationless, wax, plastic) and not cell size or the benefits of using comb.  And it appears that everyone has an opinion :)

So, I am actually in the same situation, just starting out, no drawn comb to use.

So for my honey supers - can I just buy ten empty frames, perhaps put a starter strip on each one, and then put all ten in the super and then expect the bees to draw out ten frames of comb and fill them?


In fact, you can buy honey foundation that has LARGER cells than DRONES, supposedly it discourages the queen from laying in the supers.  Haven't tried it.

I've used foundationless in supers, and they draw it large, especially if you use foundation in the brood supers.  In that case, you want to get the queen excluder on pretty early after they start drawing comb to keep the queen out.  In fact, the queen will crawl over 2 or three full capped supers (contrary to conventional wisdom) to lay in drone comb.

Rick
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on December 11, 2007, 10:32:21 am

In fact, you can buy honey foundation that has LARGER cells than DRONES, supposedly it discourages the queen from laying in the supers.  Haven't tried it.

I've used foundationless in supers, and they draw it large, especially if you use foundation in the brood supers.  In that case, you want to get the queen excluder on pretty early after they start drawing comb to keep the queen out.  In fact, the queen will crawl over 2 or three full capped supers (contrary to conventional wisdom) to lay in drone comb.

Rick


That comb play makes only  beekeeping complex. It does not bring any advantage to beekeeping.

Main points are:

1) raise much workers for main yield.

2) Good queen gives much workers and give to it enough space laying area.
It prevents swarming. Swarming is yield enemy Nro 1

3) Put hives on good pastures. Pastures give the yield.


To play with different kind of cells doest not give more workers or honey or better pastures. It is so called MUDA like Japanese say: waste of process.

Brian says that don't worry about yield, but he has lost the star and does not remember, where. Only under developed people hunt big honey yields.



.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Michael Bush on December 11, 2007, 10:36:29 am
>In fact, you can buy honey foundation that has LARGER cells than DRONES, supposedly it discourages the queen from laying in the supers.

Actually I don't know of any.  You can get 7/11 from Walter T. Kelley which is about 5.6mm which is BETWEEN worker and drone.  You can get 6.0 from Honey Super Cell which is also between, but really is just the small end of drone sized, and you can get drone foundation which is 6.6mm.  I don't know of any over that.  I have my doubts you could get the bees to build anything over 7.0mm but, in my observation, they would view that as drone.

Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on December 11, 2007, 10:40:29 am
and you can get drone foundation which is 6.6mm.  I don't know of any over that. 

In Siberia 6,6 mm is this year's standard for workers. ( near Russian bees homearea)

.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Scadsobees on December 11, 2007, 02:47:23 pm
>In fact, you can buy honey foundation that has LARGER cells than DRONES, supposedly it discourages the queen from laying in the supers.

Actually I don't know of any.  You can get 7/11 from Walter T. Kelley which is about 5.6mm which is BETWEEN worker and drone.  You can get 6.0 from Honey Super Cell which is also between, but really is just the small end of drone sized, and you can get drone foundation which is 6.6mm.  I don't know of any over that.  I have my doubts you could get the bees to build anything over 7.0mm but, in my observation, they would view that as drone.

Sorry, my bad, I remember the discourage part but was assuming it was larger, thanks for clarifying.

See heading "specialty foundations":
http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=437
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Finsky on December 12, 2007, 05:52:32 am


A good tip

When you put foundations in frames make 10 mm gap between lower bar and foundation.
When foundation enlarges in the heat of hive, it do not twist  comb to curve.

I use to order the foundations which have cutted to proper size.

*********************

If you have only langstroth foundations and you have not time to get medium size, cut from langstroth proper size and hit two low parts together with hammer. It is just size of medium. Bees correct the joint.

.
Title: Re: Foundation pros and cons
Post by: Brian D. Bray on December 12, 2007, 11:40:05 pm

That comb play makes only beekeeping complex. It does not bring any advantage to beekeeping.

Comb is the basic infrastructure of the hive, without it there is no place to reproduce or store food stuffs.  It is so basic that the bees can be induced to build it most anytime except during winter cluster.  The advantage it has is that it gives the beekeeper an easy way to gather honey and bee bread.

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Main points are:

1) raise much workers for main yield.

2) Good queen gives much workers and give to it enough space laying area.
It prevents swarming. Swarming is yield enemy Nro 1

3) Put hives on good pastures. Pastures give the yield.

Agreed, and the easiest way to prevent swarming is to keep the bees building comb.  It's not fool proof but bees busy building combs are less likely to swarm as they're always in the process of enlarging their home.  When they stop enlarging, it gets crowded and they change to swarming to eleviate overpopulation in the hometown.

Good pastures is always the best solution to good harvest but the hardest thing to determine or maintain is good pastures.  there are so many variables that an exceptionally productive sight one year can be a disaster the next.  Weather extremes, crop choice, and urbanization are only 3 of the variable factors.

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To play with different kind of cells doest not give more workers or honey or better pastures. It is so called MUDA like Japanese say: waste of process.

The bees naturally build 3 basic types of comb: brood, drone, and storage.  True all 3 can and are used for storage but why fixate on comb size.  Let the bees build what they need, when they need it.

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Brian says that don't worry about yield, but he has lost the star and does not remember, where. Only under developed people hunt big honey yields.
 

Once again, Finsky, you've chosen to misunderstand what I've been saying.  For many people maximum honey yields are very important and necessary.  Picking productive pastures is only 1 of the things that accomplishes that.  Other things are managing the bees for swarm prevention, large brood productio 9more bees make more honey), and less stressful management of the bees.

For larger brood production the hive should be allowed as much room as the queen needs, which is why I don't use queen excluders or advocate their use except under certain circumstances.

To ease the stress within the hive: slatted racks, SBBs, type of entrance, and directional orientation of the hive are some of the types of things that reduce bearding (which is stressful and more work), provides natural airconditioning, uses natural instincts of bees to the beekeepers advantage, and even how early/late bees work.


An old proverb (origin unknown) that I think applicable:  A man proud of his intelligence does not recognize his ignorance.