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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 11:55:45 am

Title: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 11:55:45 am: Now I'm frustrated. Last year this one hive had water trickling out of the hive along the solid BB. SO I added a SBB, a vented top box, and replaced just about all the old wooden ware in '09. Yet still there is condensation dripping out of the hive. Now it comes off of the sheet of luan i used to close off the SBB. The vent box has 9, 1.5" screened holes in it. One was left open. I figured that should be enough air movement. I guess I'm wrong.

Opinions anyone.

(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2354/condensationoutsidehive.jpg)
Dripping out from beneath the SBB.

(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8835/ventboxwinter.jpg)
Top vent w/ duct tape baffles. Very high tech.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2010, 12:35:10 pm: .
If you have not insulation on the inned cover, it is cool and the warm air condensates to the cool surface.

You cannot keep hive open like chimney. It is no a purpose.

The moisture should leade out of hive, not into the loft.

Make a round hole into front wall or a square hole in upper edge of the box.

Then put the hive slanting forwards that condensated and rain water drills out via entrance.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 12:48:48 pm: Finski,

I am placing styrofoam in the telescoping cover today. However, I found NO water in or on the telescoping cover, inner cover, or tops of the frame where the bees are. I am not sure at all which surface is causing the condensation. Last year I found the telescoping cover & inner cover saturated with water. Yet, they are both now dry. Go figure.

Thanks so much.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: iddee on January 16, 2010, 01:07:40 pm: I'm not a wood worker, so I have to ask. Does luan have a slick, sealed surface? If so, that's where your water forms. Use nothing but raw wood surface in a hive and you may stop the condensation.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 16, 2010, 01:10:31 pm: you will have some moisture in the hive. living things create it. it's in everything from their droppings to their expirations.

if you tip the hive so that the moisture runs down the sides and out the bottom, you have done what you can do.

one thing to consider for next year is whether or not you are feeding syrup to late into the season, and is it the right concentration. if the bees have a lot of uncapped stores and nectar thin syrup stored, you'll have more of a moisture problem. you might also consider putting some dry sugar on next year. it does help absorb moisture and it's there for them if they need it.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2010, 01:34:27 pm: Quote from: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 12:48:48 pm
Finski,

I am placing styrofoam in the telescoping cover today. However, I found NO water in or on the telescoping cover, inner cover, or tops of the frame where the bees are. I am not sure at all which surface is causing the condensation. Last year I found the telescoping cover & inner cover saturated with water. Yet, they are both now dry. Go figure.

Thanks so much.

With my 47 years experience, I do not know what then...
However, the hive's idea is protect the colony from weather and cold, and it is not meant "drum drier" .

Some condensated water in the hive bottom is natural. It is not poison.

.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2010, 01:38:39 pm: Quote from: kathyp on January 16, 2010, 01:10:31 pm

if the bees have a lot of uncapped stores and nectar thin syrup stored, you'll have more of a moisture problem.

If it is so, the store takes moisture from air and it start to ferment.

The hive shoud be feeded full, otherwise bees do not cap cells.
Give to then so much 63% syrup as thei take, and then stop feeding and playing with dry sugar.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: rdy-b on January 16, 2010, 02:04:21 pm: Not shure i got this right but you said it was coming off the sheet of luana you use to block the screened bottom with -IF the condensation is from the bottom of the sheet then it is not really in the hive is it -it is winter there is going to be some condensation -many reasons why -controlling it is your goal you cant prevent it nor do you want to prevent it completely-RDY-B
;) http://beenatural.wordpress.com/observations/condensation/ (http://beenatural.wordpress.com/observations/condensation/)
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 16, 2010, 02:06:16 pm: finski, i live in a very wet climate. the dry sugar takes a lot of the moisture. if they need it, it's there, but my main reason for using it is that it helps with that moisture that seems to creep in with the sideways rain. :-)
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 02:30:12 pm: iddee,
Luan is sanded but unfinished on both sides. Basically it's 1/8 inch plywood.

Kathyp,
I stopped feeding 2:1 syrup in the beginning of November. Yes there was some uncapped honey at that time. Can one put dry sugar on now?

Finski,
It doesn't seem like a lot of water now but I still have a month & a half of clustering. If it dries up with the current milder weather the I'll stop worrying.

rdy-b,
I put a sheet of luan under the SBB. Condensation is dripping off the frames down through the SBB onto the luan. The water then runs out the back of the hive.
That's a good point about controlling it completely. My experience is limited and I assume there should be no puddling of water. I assume this because my other hive is dry as a bone. Always has been. It has always been a strong & healthy colony. However, the condensation prone colony is always having problems. I figured that any condensation is then bad.
Am I wrong?
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2010, 02:32:06 pm: Quote from: kathyp on January 16, 2010, 02:06:16 pm
finski, i live in a very wet climate. the dry sugar takes a lot of the moisture.

I know so much these things that that is not true. I was gojng to nonsence but I did not say.

But I know too that American hobby beekeeper are mad to feed sugar all year around, what ever the reason is.

yes, Boring is now moist place. 14 days and all rainy, but sugar is not solution to moisture.
Annual rain is something 700 mm. It is not much.
We have 600-700 mm, so it the same.

http://www.weatherforyou.com/weather/oregon/boring.html (http://www.weatherforyou.com/weather/oregon/boring.html)

.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 16, 2010, 02:33:22 pm: i guess i'm not to horrible an american hobby beekeeper. i don't feed sugar all year :-D
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2010, 02:43:38 pm: .
One thing in Britain is that hobbyist try to over winter too small bee colonies.
It makes a lot troubles even to experienced beekeepers.

But British beekeeprs are eager to shake bees, if they do not know what to do. Shake them!
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: wfuavenger on January 16, 2010, 04:55:50 pm: experiment for you:

If you are worried about moisture do what I do in my gun safe, put a panty hose leg about 8" long filled with white rice and tied off in a knot above the top cover. It sucks the moisture right out of the air. remember to throw it away after about a month or two or it will get a little nasty. Give it a try. Who knows, it might work!

Or you could spread out the rice in a thin layer on the board you use to cover the SBB.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 16, 2010, 05:59:14 pm: .
Remember, when bees are in nature hole, they have not needed nor rice or sugar.
Fool gang.

They need only peace to sleep their winter over. You just kill your hives disturb all the time their wintersleep.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 16, 2010, 07:05:10 pm: finski, you should come to buds this year and fix our beekeeping :-D
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: wfuavenger on January 16, 2010, 08:11:20 pm: Quote from: Finski on January 16, 2010, 05:59:14 pm
.
Remember, when bees are in nature hole, they have not needed nor rice or sugar.
Fool gang.

They need only peace to sleep their winter over. You just kill your hives disturb all the time their wintersleep.

But they are not in a natural hole. We have put them in a box, in perfect orders and rows. It is not even close, we have a big difference in where they naturaly live and where we put them. Therefore, we have to assist every now and then because we have put them into something "not natural" and the bees cannot build and design it on their own as we have not let them!!!
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 08:30:41 pm: OK then...
This is what I'll do
1). Put sugar on top of the inner cover
2). Insulate the T-cover with styrofoam
3). Open the closed SBB a half inch to aid in circulation.

Does anyone see a landmine in this list?

Thanks to all of you.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: rdy-b on January 16, 2010, 09:42:36 pm: if you are going to do the dry sugar-remove inercover-place news papper and sugar on top barswith feed rim-like this

winter feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZYtGNa6S6c#ws)
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: buzzbee on January 16, 2010, 10:52:50 pm: Finski has spoken of this before.
The moisture will condense on the coldest part of the hive first. We need to control which is coldest.
If the top is better insulated than the sides,it will condense on the sides and run to the bottom board. then it will run down and not drip on the bees. Tilt the hive slightly so the moisture runs out the front of the bottom board to the outside where it will do no harm.Opening the hive too much may not kill them from cold,but possibly early starvation,since the bees will consume more of their stores to stay warm.If it is too cold to move to new stores after consuming what is under the cluster,they may stave with many stores still in the hive.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 17, 2010, 02:38:21 am: .
Thanks buzzbee!!!

And one more, the coldest time of the year is not a time to go nurse bees or feed the bees. '
Even iff how much a beekeeper is nervous, donn't go to disturb their sleep.

When you knock the hive, It becomes ready to defend the hive against enemy and rises temp from 23 C to 40C. It takes 24 hours to get calm again.

That is why they start to fly out too and hundreds of bees will die.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 17, 2010, 02:56:09 am: ok This is what I do to keep my hives warm and dry
1. open SBB and I mean Open!
2. i put on a empty super lay down news paper and place 10 pounds of dry sugar on
3. I shim the inner cover up off the super at 2/8th inch gap place top cover on place cinder block on.
4 tilt hive slightly forward helps rain roll off better.
5 last build wind walls from straw bails to keep the wind off.
all my bees do just fine And I live on the southern end of the Olympic Rainforest we get feet of rain a year not inches. and I don't have mold my bees do well. I don't wrap my hives with tar paper. so maybe you might want to try this next year.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 17, 2010, 03:02:47 am: Quote from: Hemlock on January 16, 2010, 08:30:41 pm
OK then...
This is what I'll do
1). Put sugar on top of the inner cover
2). Insulate the T-cover with styrofoam
3). Open the closed SBB a half inch to aid in circulation.

Does anyone see a landmine in this list?

Thanks to all of you.

Yes, it is pure tank mine

Forget the sugar

Don't use styrofoam in that place to insulate because it blocks the moisture and generate mould and rotten wood. Use something which let the moisture move trough the stuff. I do not know what you have. Stone wool, plastic foam matres...

Half inch let mice to go in. Open at least the whole entrance and put there a mouseguard.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 17, 2010, 03:12:22 am: Quote from: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 17, 2010, 02:56:09 am
leave the SBB open all the way! its not the cold that harms the girls it the damp condesation.

REALLY STUPID ADVICE! It is like in the car: Motor is more important than wheels. No wheels are more important than air in the wheel. --- can't you take care of them all ???

You must be so clever that the hive gives heat protection and the hive is dry ENOUGH.

Think about your home when its is cold and rainy?

* when bees have a warm box, they consume too much winter food --- they are alive in spring when you open the hive.

* arrange a LITTLE VENTILATION that air changes inside like it changes at you home.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: rdy-b on January 17, 2010, 03:45:54 am: :pop:
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: buzzbee on January 17, 2010, 07:32:36 am: Hemlock,
If you were to put starw or some type of breathable insulation on top of the inner cover,the inner cover below the vent box may no longer be the coldest part of the hive. Right now the top is coldest,maybe letting it rain on your bees.Fill the upper arera with dry straw or something to insulate the ineer lid to prevent the heat loss and still let moisture out.
Here is where just by letting the hive be warmer inside than the temp is out lowers the "relative"humidity.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 17, 2010, 01:43:41 pm: (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3421/goodgriefcharliebrownk.jpg)
Good Grief! I think I stepped in something. Well Thank you for all your answers. So to respond...

rdy-b,
Cool video, I subscribed. One question though. What do the bees do with the news paper? Don't they shred it?

-I see what you did there. Ha ha!

buzzbee,
Like I said I found the T-cover & inner cover dry. The water was in linear puddles that matched the position of the frames. The water was not strictly in the middle like it came through the hole in the inner cover. So I'm stuck trying to figure out which surface is the culprit.

finski,
-oy, The Sugar Argument. The water cold dripping through the bees will probably disturb their 'sleep' more than me taking 5 minutes to toss in some sugar on a 50 F degree day (11 C).

-I would not block the vents in the vent box with the styrofoam. I would leave a tight crawlspace in the vent box. It would keep the heat down by the bees but allow the moisture to evacuate.

-Using permeable insulation is a good idea. I've seen videos of how they do that in Europe. However I'd rather get the moisture out of the hive than let it build a frost pocket, high in the hive, safely away from the bees.

-Yes an unprotected gap might lead to mice. I'll cover it with a steel mesh.

-Tsk, tsk. No advice has been 'stupid' here. You should know that not all climates are the same. Do you really think you methods would work in, let's say, Texas? There are many universal practices but also numerous regional ones too.

Wynoochee_newbee_guy,
-I asked my bee club about leaving the SBB open. Absolutely no one does that around here. However, I gave it a try since the arguments for it, I thought, were good ones. My problem was the with a single Deep on this hive. Last month the bees were mere inches away from 20 F degree temps day after day. That's when I got uncomfortable about it and closed it off.

-I understand blocking the wind. I couldn't shake the idea that it create a cubby for critters & such to use the same way the bees would. Plus I'm rabidly anti-straw bale. Nothing but cockroach breeding farms they are. Get all up in my hive messing around touching my honey. !NEVER!

-No wrapping here either.

Again Thanks for all the responses.
aun Aprendo
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 17, 2010, 01:59:19 pm: Quote from: Hemlock on January 17, 2010, 01:43:41 pm

finski,
-oy, The Sugar Argument. The water cold dripping through the bees will probably disturb their 'sleep' more than me taking 5 minutes to toss in some sugar on a 50 F degree day (11 C).

What altenative is that cold dripping or sugar ??? You are not serious at all.

When the hive uses 10 kg winter food, it generates 4 litre water.
If "some sugar" makes you sleep better, do it. Stupid trick however.

Magic and "some" sugar

(http://plaza.fi/s/f/editor/images/X-20080602134821281.jpg)
'
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 17, 2010, 02:03:32 pm: Quote from: Hemlock on January 17, 2010, 01:43:41 pm

-Tsk, tsk. No advice has been 'stupid' here.

Only 90%. Not more.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 17, 2010, 03:02:44 pm: i live in a high wind are and the wind is very cold in the winter. if it's dry, it's in the 20's not counting wind chill. if it's wet, it blows the rain into every crack. a simple way to block the wind is to attach sheets of plywood at and / angle on the windward side. not only does it block rain and wind, but if it's on the entrance side, it keeps the snow from the entrance. cheap and easy.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 17, 2010, 05:43:34 pm: Kathyp,

Do you run double deeps or what?
Does the plywood add to the risk of the wind toppling over the hives?

Fortunately we don't get the 'sideways rain' I've heard you talk about. Spring is very windy though and snow load hear is practically nonexistent. I do place a a piece of sheet metal on top of the hives. It juts out half a foot on all sides. Rarely (i can think of once) does rain make it onto the front porch. The hives are on a tilt to drain off water making it in to the hives.

I'm sure this event is condensation. Up to now the temps have been in the 20's during the day. so any interior water will have come from the bees. Either I'm not venting properly or I don't know...Maybe I have extra-humid bees or something. Anyway, I am confident that I'm not introducing the water into the hive right now. Several have mentioned that small amounts of condensation can be good for the bees if conditions are right. I'll focus on those conditions as well.

Good will come out of this as soon as I catch up to whatever is going on.

Thanks
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 17, 2010, 06:24:00 pm: some are double, some single. depends on how they are doing going into winter. late swarms i keep in singles.

i use sheets of plywood tipped at an angle from ground to hive front. the angle keeps the wind from hitting the front of the hive full on and protects the entrance from snow buildup. there is no getting around condensation. the trick is to fix your hives so that it does not drip on the cluster. condensation that runs down the sides and out, is natural. the wetter the environment, the more you will get. my external environment is very wet-high humidity. moisture will not evaporate into wet air. the best i can do is keep the moisture from the bees draining, and try to keep the rain out.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: manfre on January 17, 2010, 11:44:51 pm: "What do the bees do with the news paper?"

It gets shredded and falls to the bottom and then makes you wonder what could be nesting in the bottom of the hive. Or at least that is my experience from this winter.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 18, 2010, 12:04:50 am: manfre,

I don't like the sound of that.

~~Is placing the sugar on the inner cover to far away from the cluster?~~

Never mind, I just read about it on this thread (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,26293.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,26293.0.html))
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Michael Bush on January 18, 2010, 12:33:02 pm: Bees produce water and CO2 by their metabolism. When the weather is cold this is going to either condense or go out the top (wet air is lighter than dry air and warm air is lighter than cold air). You are worried because it is running out. Running out is what you want it to do. It is going to condense on anything that is colder and there is bound to be places that are colder. The important thing is to prevent it from condensing where it will drip on the bees. Perhaps those of you in more moderate climates can leave the SBB open, I would not do it here. We just recently had -27 F and 40-50 mph winds. Would you leave the flap of your tent open if you were camping out in that weather?
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 18, 2010, 09:13:01 pm: Michael,

Actually I was worried because it was there, period. I didn't get (until now) that it is suppose to be there. I guess i'm over it now. I'll do what I can to keep it off the bees and from being too much.
--- --- ---

I insulated the Vent boxes today. If I'm right this will keep condensation from occurring above the bees. Now it should happen on the sides instead.
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6257/foaminsulatedventbox.jpg)

(http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4231/ivbmaryblog.jpg)
Two vent holes are open allowing humidity to escape (facing south & east). The SBB remains closed and the hive is still tilted. The population is low and reserves are at half so I'll add dry sugar on top of the IC.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: podius on January 21, 2010, 09:53:11 am: I insulated with wool this year and just for curiosity checked a hive yesterday. I stuck my hand under the wool and it was hot and dry. There was some moisture on the edges, but wool wicks moisture out. I think it's a great insulator and a great option if you have a couple of neighbors that keep sheep and will give you the junk wool after a shearing.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 21, 2010, 11:12:26 am: podius,

Sheep? No. But llama & alpaca, yes. How thick did you make it?
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: BMAC on January 21, 2010, 02:50:50 pm: This is all very insteresting. A local beek here in upstate NY took a fairly practical approach by cutting cardboard to the dimension of the top and replaced their inner cover with the cardboard inner cover. He ade them sveral layers thick. He states it absorbs the moisture and of course provides insulation to the bees. He pulls them off in the spring and has done this for about 15 years now. I suppose 1 years of work shows proof it is a useful tactic. Myself. I ran them to Ga and didnt sweat it.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 21, 2010, 03:13:45 pm: cardboard is a good material. ...But the smell of moist cardboard is not nice at all.
Who knows what bees think about it.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 21, 2010, 03:27:05 pm: BMAC,
Bees shred paper so I wonder why they don't do the same to cardboard. Do you also vent from the top.

Finski,
do you use a large box filled with linen on top of your hives? I vaguely recall Europeans using something like that. I can't remember what it's called though.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 21, 2010, 03:52:41 pm: .
Beekeepers use many kind of material in upper insulation. Even newspapers.

I have 10 mm wood panel towards bees and 7 cm blastic foam matress. That structure stands 20 years and piece of matress stands some years. All are recycled material.

I have tried many materials. Bees gnaw many of them soft and mice make nest in it if they can.

Many material make dust like rubbish onto frames. Some sticks to fingers when fingers have resin or honey.

My inner cover leans against in the picture . They are all same.

(http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/Kuva_049.jpg)
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: podius on January 22, 2010, 07:52:26 pm: Quote from: Hemlock on January 21, 2010, 11:12:26 am
podius,

Sheep? No. But llama & alpaca, yes. How thick did you make it?

I took the wool and fluffed it up enough to fill up the box(scrap box's that I had left over from cutting down deeps and made into insulated top boxes.). I was given a feed sack full and it insulated 12 hives perfectly.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 22, 2010, 11:50:46 pm: So my Question is this? What do Ferrel "wild Honey bees" Do in the winter? with no one to provide hive wraps or insulation? So what do they do? they are not all closed up like a langtrom hive. and they do just fine. Like I said befor and will say again I keep my sbb open and my bees do well its moisture that kills in the winter not the cold.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 23, 2010, 01:08:39 am: Quote from: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 22, 2010, 11:50:46 pm
Like I said befor and will say again I keep my sbb open and my bees do well its moisture that kills in the winter not the cold.

I say that it is nonsence. When food is finish, bees will be dead for cold durin24 hours.
Cold kills hives more than moisture. We have just now here -20C - -25 C.

You can handle moisture and heat questions at same time like in human houses, why not in beehives.

When you live at home, do you think that cold is better than moist! You just handle boath things.

*********************

http://www.wunderground.com/US/WA/Ocean_Shores.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/WA/Ocean_Shores.html)

How much you have frost there now?
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Kathyp on January 23, 2010, 01:37:11 am: if you leave your screened boards open in our winters, the cold will kill them. i take it you have not looked at to many "wild" hives? the are in a confined space and have one very small opening. they do not provide themselves ventilation. there is also nothing magic about them. if they choose a bad spot, they will die.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 23, 2010, 01:41:54 am: um I leave my SBB open my bees are flying all is good so please tell me what I did wrong I know I get way more rain then you do in boring Oregon, my bees do very well.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: rdy-b on January 23, 2010, 02:07:10 am: Quote from: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 23, 2010, 01:41:54 am
um I leave my SBB open my bees are flying all is good so please tell me what I did wrong I know I get way more rain then you do in boring Oregon, my bees do very well.

you have a system that works for you-I read how you do your set up and I think the bails of straw is what is keeping your chill factor down -do you have any colonies set up without the wind break :) I have done the srtaw bails and was glad i had them -but when i moved to a better location i was glad to get rid of them-any way you have engineered your system for your needs -one thing for sure they need every advantage they can get in the blowing rain- ;) RDY-B
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 23, 2010, 03:51:25 am: .
In our country bees have not tree cavities to settle. They go into brick chimneys and die there every winter.

When I have used uninsutated tree boxes, the food consumption is 50% bigger than in insulated box. So inestead of 20 kg they need 30 kg sugar and 30 kg is not possible to put into 10 Langstroth frames.

In my hives bees not die for cold or for moisture. They are not alternatives, for what you want to kill your hives.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: buzzbee on January 23, 2010, 07:22:24 am: Quote from: kathyp on January 23, 2010, 01:37:11 am
if you leave your screened boards open in our winters, the cold will kill them. i take it you have not looked at to many "wild" hives? the are in a confined space and have one very small opening. they do not provide themselves ventilation. there is also nothing magic about them. if they choose a bad spot, they will die.
You have to remember that they usually attach comb at the top of that cavity which provides some insulating value.The tree,as long as it is not frozen will wick away the moisture better than a board.
Finskis point about cold is that if it is colder inside bees need a lot more stores to maintain cluster temperature.You need bees to meatbolize honey to produce heat.
If you then feed syrup to a cold hive that is starving,you create much more moisture than can be tolerated by the bees.i think a lot of these problems can be avoided if you get the syrup fed early enough to have enough for the winter capped and sealed from the moisture before it gets cold.
a gallon of oil will only put so much heat in your house. Open the windows when the furnace is on,and it takes a lot more oil to stay warm.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 23, 2010, 10:46:27 am: .
In my country many use a mesh floor open during winter, and they bees are alive in spring.
But it makes not worse the solid bottom.

a mesh bottom come into use with Danish polyhives 20 years ago. As far as I know, no one used
such before that. Others say it varroa bottom.

If you have a mesh floor, don't keep then upper ventilation.

If you have solid bottom, keep then finger size upper opening.

If you want to save winter food and to get faster spring build up, keep instulated brood boxes.

Some condensation makes no harm to bees.

a dead hive doe not make you a bad beekeeper. What ever domestic animal you keep, sometimes some animal will die and it was not your fault. It just happens.
.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: weBEE Jammin on January 23, 2010, 03:04:17 pm: I keep SBBs on my hives all year round (drier & warmer climate); and I drive T-posts on the north side of my hives to fasten plywood to, for a wind/snow breaks. I also use those leftover political plastic signs (might as well get some use out of them!) overhanging the front porches and weighted on top of my hives. I have never had any moisture problems in any of my hives.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 23, 2010, 03:18:17 pm: weBEE Jammin

Did you mean to say that you leave your SBB's 'OPEN' all year long? As apposed to mine which are closed off right now.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 23, 2010, 04:03:11 pm: Quote from: weBEE Jammin on January 23, 2010, 03:04:17 pm
I have never had any moisture problems in any of my hives.

However, I hunt for honey, not for moisture scores.

I know much beekeepers which have never problems. Strange!

But in my my beekeeping the heat is very important thing. I do not want to ventilate
it out.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Hemlock on January 23, 2010, 05:39:57 pm: Strange it is. I made this post due to one hive that's had water issues last winter & this winter. Yet, my other hive has always been completely dry. Same equipment too. Those other bees manage to get through Winter without any condensation problems. Looking forward to re-queening the 'wet' colony this year. Anyone want to bet the moisture problem might go away then.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Sparky on January 23, 2010, 07:57:07 pm: The resposses to this post seem to be typical of the (ask 10 different beekeeps a question and you will get 9 different answers.) In this past summer I talked to a old beekeeper from West Virginia that was 40+ years in the craft and what he told me come as a shock. He said ( you cannot kill bees from cold. What kills them is moisture from condensation dripping on the bees. ) He switched all of his hives to SBB in the last 13 years of beekeeping,that he leaves open year round. He claims that he has lost very few hives after the switch, compared to before. Now I did not ask anything about if he uses any kind of upper ventilation or not. I run screened bottoms that have insulation under them, that has small areas along the sides and back cut out to let ventilate but do not think I would run them wide open. After reading some of the test findings with SBB's and it's influence on mite populations I think that they are still better left somewhat closed in the winter to provide just enough air to keep the condensation to a minimum, especially if there is any kind of upper venting going on.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 23, 2010, 08:44:05 pm: Quote from: rdy-b on January 23, 2010, 02:07:10 am
Quote from: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 23, 2010, 01:41:54 am
um I leave my SBB open my bees are flying all is good so please tell me what I did wrong I know I get way more rain then you do in boring Oregon, my bees do very well.

you have a system that works for you-I read how you do your set up and I think the bails of straw is what is keeping your chill factor down -do you have any colonies set up without the wind break :) I have done the srtaw bails and was glad i had them -but when i moved to a better location i was glad to get rid of them-any way you have engineered your system for your needs -one thing for sure they need every advantage they can get in the blowing rain- ;) RDY-B
yes the straw bails work well for a wind break and in the spring the straw gets tossed in to the composter and I get some great compost out of it. my Friend who lives 40 miles sw of me did not do well this year his starved out. with plenty of stores just two frames away. but the straw wind break was taught to me by and old beek.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Wynoochee_newbee_guy on January 23, 2010, 08:46:33 pm: Quote from: Finski on January 23, 2010, 10:46:27 am
.
In my country many use a mesh floor open during winter, and they bees are alive in spring.
But it makes not worse the solid bottom.

a mesh bottom come into use with Danish polyhives 20 years ago. As far as I know, no one used
such before that. Others say it varroa bottom.

If you have a mesh floor, don't keep then upper ventilation.

If you have solid bottom, keep then finger size solid bottom.

If you want to save winter food and to get faster spring build up, keep instulated brood boxes.

Some condensation makes no harm to bees.

a dead hive doe not make you a bad beekeeper. What ever domestic animal you keep, sometimes some animal will die and it was not your fault. It just happens.

.

well said
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 24, 2010, 03:16:04 am: I ment: If you have solid bottom, keep then finger size upper entrance.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 24, 2010, 05:48:43 am: .
Condensation and ventilation is a huge problem in our human houses.

When the first energy crisis came 1975, folks start to minimize ventilation and add insulation.

Results were of tremendous. Many houses became mold bombs and a lot of humans became sick.

It has been long time but problem continues. One difficulty is many kind of material which we have not experience. I know that many people act against orders and use "common sence" and the house begin to rotten.

And what is this to do with beekeeping. The issue is difficult even to us who live in cold country and energy cost is huge. But when I have discussed with US and British beekeepers, very few understand that means insulation and dew point or relative moisture. Order is simlpe: Add ventilation!

Wrapping or insulating hives is very odd job. Folks talk about how to get hives alive over winter.
To me more important is how fast is spring build up and how early hives are ready to get surplus.
To get hives ovet winter is very simple job. But nosema spoil every year some hives.

I do not try to be a perfect beekeeper. I keep 20% extra hives with which I compensate losses. Mostly they are queen problems which I note during spring. If the hive dies for starving, it surely has brood over winter. That is a strain question and local adaptation.

In Canada insulated hives are quite a new "invention".
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 24, 2010, 05:55:36 am: Canada: Insulating Your House

Signs of Insulation Problems

In the winter

•walls cold to touch
•cold floors
•high heating costs
•uneven heating levels within building
•mold growing on walls

In the summer

•uncomfortably hot inside air
•high cooling costs
•ineffectiveness of air conditioning system
•mold growing in basement

MORE
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/enefcosa/enefcosa_002.cfm (http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/enefcosa/enefcosa_002.cfm)

Think about beehive ventilation: In winter same ventilation as in summer
but only 1/3 of bees are heating the hive in winter
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Somerford on January 28, 2010, 04:04:35 pm: I have noticed a marked improvement in reducing condensation since I started using open mesh floors all year round, and I make sure that strong colonies have both vents in the crownboard left uncovered.

I also don't put any insulation either around the exterior or on the crown board !

Overwinting in North Wiltshire, near Malmesbury, UK

regards

S
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: ONTARIO BEEKEEPER on January 28, 2010, 05:22:09 pm: I insulate the over top of the inner cover to cut down on condensation. I also have an upper entrance which also serves as a vent.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 29, 2010, 01:49:06 am: Quote from: Somerford on January 28, 2010, 04:04:35 pm
I have noticed a marked improvement in reducing condensation since I started using open mesh floors all year round, and I make sure that strong colonies have both vents in the crownboard left uncovere

That is surely too much. If you use open bottom, dont use upper ventilation.
Inner covers insulation keep heat up inside.

.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Somerford on January 29, 2010, 05:36:40 am: Fin, no, they appear to be fine. One of the main triggers of Nosema is a damp hive. My old beekeeping mentor always held that air travelling through helped the prevention of condensation. We have had quite a bad winter here already, as you know, -12 c, and they appear to be fine.

I do leave the inspection board in the bottom, so it doesn't create a massive draught though.

Next year it will be interesting re. Beehaus as the gap between the mesh and the tray is about 3cm

regards

S
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 29, 2010, 07:54:08 am: .

Condensation is not the main issue in wintering. And too much is too much in ventilation too.

How do you live at home. -12C and windows open that moisture does not stay onto window glass.

In good old times we used 2 window glasses and during bad frost window caught moisture and make ice.
Now we use 3 glasses, and inner window is warmer and no condensation happens.

So do you add ventilation or insulation?

I am old too and you don't believe me a bit 8-) .... but not too old.
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Somerford on January 30, 2010, 10:17:05 pm: Finski, just because we humans like warmer places to live, doesn't mean our bees do....after all they have survived the last 200 million years without our 'clever' ideas !

regards

S
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: rdy-b on January 31, 2010, 01:49:54 am: depends how long your food surplus will last -cold bees need extra feed to generate heat-dont let them burn up reserves before they can fend for themselves -some winters are longer than others-its always location-bees stay to warm and they start brooding then newborn eat food -delicate balance is required for different environments ;) RDY-B
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 31, 2010, 04:25:29 am: Quote from: Somerford on January 30, 2010, 10:17:05 pm
Finski, just because we humans like warmer places to live, doesn't mean our bees do....after all they have survived the last 200 million years without our 'clever' ideas !

Yes, but Englishmen have not yeat invented how to make their stone cottages warm.
Both bees and humans come from Africa.

Yesterday I visited summer cottage and I have one 5-frame nuc in the firewood shelter.
I put there 3 W infraheater. When I opened the cover, half of hive was full of ice crystals.
Bottom board was covered with ice. Upper entrance was blocked with ice.

However water drilled from hive. - It means that when weather become milder, the snow inside the hive start to melt.
We have had the whole month -15C - -30C and temp has varied sharply. Southern people just don't undertand what it means.

That condensation show that bees stand many thing anf you need not to be mad for hive concensation.
It is better if you do not look inside the hive.

(http://www.wideview.it/travel/Yakutia_2007/09.jpg)

Yep, that guy needs more upper ventilation
Title: Re: AAAHHHH!!...Stupid condensation!
Post by: Finski on January 31, 2010, 04:33:19 am: Quote from: rdy-b on January 31, 2010, 01:49:54 am
depends how long your food surplus will last -cold bees need extra feed to generate heat-

Yes, the hive is alive as long as they have food.

When hives are under half metre snow, it is difficult to give "some sugar".

During 47 years I have learned how to keep hives alive.

In insulated hives and with proper ventilation food stores last 8 months without extra feeding.
- if you let bees stay in peace