Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: JackM on October 09, 2011, 09:05:06 pm
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Been doing a lot of viewing online books, videos, U-tube, forums, and talking to many folks. I am well aware this may get a bunch of hackles raised here and do not want a war. (I was at one time a residential/retrofit insulation contractor so I have than knowledge to help me)
First let me begin by stating that wood has an R-value of 1 per inch, each additional inch adds another R to the stack.
Second, in nature, the bees love trees, existed in them for eons before man intervened....right?....I am sure there are caves and underhangs and such, but in general.
Now our hives are made from "1 inch" thick wood that is really 3/4 inch, so R value of a very generous 1.
The dead air space inside the hive has a value, and again being generous, lets throw a full R for that, now up to R-2. On a CALM day there is another half R for the air around the exterior. Max R-value of 2.5.
Yet in a tree, depending on how huge it really is, can be surrounded easily by 8 inches of solid wood on all sides at a minimum. Lets be generous again, cut that number in half and say it is only 4 inches thick, an R-4. Adding in the 1.5 for the airspace we also gave to the hive we now have an R-5.5. Without showing all the math, the R-3 additional that the tree has is huge figuring a brood temp of 95 degrees....
I am surprised that virtually no one insulates hives....or there isn't much info that I found on it. Using a 1 inch polyeurothane foil-backed insulation (Thermax is a brand name) just by putting it on the side of a hive you add an additional R-8 to the 2.5, making now R-10.5. But if you can create an air space of 1/8 inch between the hive and the insulation board by using strips of ? 1/8 thick, you effectively double the insulations value. That hits R-18.5. In my mind that says to me that the bees don't have to work so hard to keep the brood warm, if your temps drop below freezing, it is a real concern I would think.
I do not think that really is much different than a good old thick tree.
Now I wonder why in nature the bees frequently have an high and a low entrance, exit? Some folks swear you gotta have a top only, or a bottom only exit, don't see much about using both. The bees in a tree can't close it off, and probably don't want to as it vents out stale air and unnecessary moisture.
So, it seems to me that much of what is "required' to do bees right, is quite opinionated. Me thinks the bees know better than we. But I bet they would like an insulated box in cold climates.
Please don't belittle or get too contentious.
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You can use BeeMax hive.Just my $0.02
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Sounds reasonable to me.
It, (insulating for winter) has been on my mind quite a bit lately. We have hit 30 below zero up here.
Joel
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When I used the beemax there was a lot of moisture and condensation in the hive. I wasn't impressed. maybe if I used the boxes, but not their lid and a top entrance of some kind, it might solve some of that. I don't know. But since they don't come in eight frame boxes, I doubt I will try them again. Putting my hives against each other for winter seems to work better than trying to wrap or insulate. Wrapping just makes them wet all the time and the bees don't do as well, in my experience. I have 14 hives all up against one another. Huddled together for warmth.
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When you calculate R-value, the tree is wet during winter.
I remember when 50 years ago German Black mongrels were common (Black Devil) skeps were usual. Those hives were small and they swarmed twicely.
Normal frame hives were small too. The space was equal one langstroth box and then medium size super. The yield was 15 kg. It was not able to keep Italian bees in those tiny huts.
Now colonies are 3 times bigger. Yield is 60- 100 kg. Even in Finland, where yield season is only one month, top hives bring 200 kg.
In Finland every beekeepers has insulated hives. Like in human houses insulation saves energy.
When humans live here, they do not keep doors and windown open during winter. Why they keep hive bottoms open?
90% of beekeepers do not understand insulation or ventilation. They just do.
But bees stand quite much variation in human beekeeping.
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Honeybees are the absolute 'masters' of adaptation, thanks in part (a small part when looking at the big picture) to humans spreading them around beyond where they'd 'prefer' to dwell, based on historical evidence. Their will to survive, despite 'our' interference (and millions of years) is truly amazing.
We beeks tend to forget the honeybee history of 160+ million years before we came along, especially when discussing comparisons of bees and humans (one of my personal pet peeves, that and tailgaters :-D)
I think the OP :) is an example of such forgetfullness, no offence intended, as shown by its omission. I just think its always important to keep this in mind whenever comparing bee behavior to human behavior.
That all said, I use both 'top and bottom' entrances on my Lang hives (bottoms closed for winter) and I absolutely agree;
The bees know best.
There actually has been some research conducted on this issue but most is (as is the case w/ a lot of beekeeping) anecdotal and/or individual based. It seems there are basically two camps. One says insulate the entire hive, the other says just the top. I guess I'm with the just the top crowd as I feel such complete insulation of sides and top can/does cause moisture issues.
(trees hold the most moisture in Spring when the sap is running, unless its dead of course)
thomas
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When you insulate, you must ventilate, think about how your house is constructed, tremendous amout of moisture produced, that must escape generally through 8 or 10 inches of insulation in the overhead and out some type of roof vents..I have been in attics not properly vented that had several inches of frost on the rafters, a warm up can ruin ceilings in these cases, same with bee boxes, I construct mine the same way I used to do houses..dl
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Wow, so many great responses.
Putting my hives against each other for winter seems to work better than trying to wrap or insulate.
Yes, that would be even better, then just insulate the exterior 'wall'. Each hive has an R-Value, and actually is a heater in severe. Great idea if you have many hives. Even 2 next to each other will have a 1/4 reduction in heat loss by having a side next to another....an hopefully with a 1/8 inch air space.
When you calculate R-value, the tree is wet during winter.
True, but the difference is minimal as the wood will only soak up so much moisture.
Wrapping just makes them wet all the time
That is because the wrapping had no permeability. I think a hive under normal circumstances, even closed up can properly vent the amount of moisture the bees produce....we are not talking outdoor moisture inside a closed hive. Moisture will permeate in an osmotic fasion even through solid wood.[/quote]
When you insulate, you must ventilate, think about how your house is constructed, tremendous amout of moisture produced, that must escape generally through 8 or 10 inches of insulation in the overhead and out some type of roof vents..I have been in attics not properly vented that had several inches of frost on the rafters, a warm up can ruin ceilings in these cases, same with bee boxes, I construct mine the same way I used to do houses..dl
Few understand how a home vents the moisture we create daily. I too have seen attics like you mention.
Now, for my opinion on venting in the winter. Let me know what you think. My climate rarely goes below freezing but is wet as hell. Put a wire mouse guard on the bottom and have it open. Close the screened bottom. I think a Vivaldi top cover is perfect to vent the top of the hive. All I need is to provide a top exit if I want. The moist warm air rises, the telescoping cover has just enough space around the edges to allow the sides of the Vivaldi to vent. I think I will use some 1/2" thermax on the sides as a slide over box and put 1/2" on the inside of the top cover.
Oh, and the Thermax is polyisocyanurate foam, not what I mentioned earlier. Big difference.
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What rubbish I must again read.......
Need of ventilation: to get oxygen and get rif of carbondiokside.
Need to ventilate moisture depends on the difference between outer and inner temperature.
When out temp is low, its absolute moisture is low. When that air is heated up, its relative moisture is quite dry.
Our rooms are too dry in winter when we heat houses.
So, insulation makes the room dry, because it is warmer and the dew point moves outside of room.
If we want to dry up our houses or clothes, we raise temperature.
INSULATION SAVES ENERGY. It hinders warm to escape through the walls, roof and floor and windows.
INSULATION IS NOT A REASON TO CONDENSATION AND VENTILATION. Insulation happend when moist warm air meets a cold surface. Look the car windows when you are inside.
- If the hive interrior is cold, condensation happens onto comb surfaces.
- If the wintering space is small, moisture condensates on walls.
- when inner cover is well insulates, surface is the most warm, and condensation happens onto sidewalls.
- in wooden hives moisture goes into the wood and in plastic and ply wood surfaces water drils to the bottom boar.
If you ventilate too much, it makes the wintering space cold and it needs more winter food.
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INSULATION SAVES 30% OF WINTER FOOD IN MY COUNTRY. It hinder starving.
I have used 15 years American style noninsulated hives and I know what I am talking.
Nowadays I have a problem, what to do with extra winter food when new honey starts to come in.
When you feed the langstroth hive full, the food lasts 9 months, from September to May.
If the hive is not insulated, food lasts 6 months from September to February. February is the coldest moth.
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Yes its true, if humans want to dry (heat?) 'our' houses we raise the temp w/ fossil fuels or more rarely, sunlight, wind or the earth itself. Such 'artificial' heat generated inside an enclosed area generally makes the surrounding air dryer. That's True, true, true.
But what if it were just a bunch of humans in an 'un-heated' dwelling? People do generate 'some' heat, but whether its gonna be "life supporting" heat for months on end and no working plumbing, is highly debatable for sure. AND this heat that humans create has loads of moisture from respiration (like bees), so that would definitely affect condensation levels in this unheated space. Would they be advised to open a window to let this moisture out? Even at 30 below zero? Yikes, do we still wanna compare bees and people?
As most anyone can tell, I'm still not convinced on how any of this relates to honeybees and their human forced dwellings, insects that generate enough heat to keep themselves alive for months on end in sub freezing temps w/out taking a dump, and/or how it compares w/ people. This is where the argument/debate always seems to end for me, the same stalemate I'm afraid :'(.
However, on a lighter side, it is NOT true that clothing needs high temps to dry :?. All one needs is bright sunshine, they'll still dry just fine (maybe a little stiff) when temps are well below freezing and hung on a line in the yard. Try it 8-)
thomas
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A part from the incorrect usage of the term dew point (its the temperature at which the relative humidy would be 100%) I must agree with Finski...
The thing is to understand the standard wooden hive is much worse than the bees natural habitat than you have calculated, as often the bees hole is lined with rotted wood, a natural foam... I'm not familar with R values (I use W/Deg C) but an estimate of the insulation values we should be looking at is something in excess of 15 times better the standard wood hive. The insulation values in commercially available polystyrene hives should be considered as a minimum standard (8 times a standard wooden hive). Then we need to keep the amount of heat in the hive inside easy control of the bees. Conserve the bubble of heat in winter, and allow cooling in summer.
Top vents in spring/summer open(temperature to do this is dependent on hive design), closed in winter, baffled/sheltered/screened bottom grid/mesh/slots open all year
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Yes its true, if humans want to dry (heat?) 'our' houses we raise the temp w/ fossil fuels or more rarely, sunlight, wind or the earth itself. Such 'artificial' heat generated inside an enclosed area generally makes the surrounding air dryer. That's True, true, true.
But what if it were just a bunch of humans in an 'un-heated' dwelling? People do generate 'some' heat, but whether its gonna be "life supporting" heat for months on end and no working plumbing, is highly debatable for sure. AND this heat that humans create has loads of moisture from respiration (like bees), so that would definitely affect condensation levels in this unheated space. Would they be advised to open a window to let this moisture out? Even at 30 below zero? Yikes, do we still wanna compare bees and people?
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Consider the design of an igloo, the domed structure traps heat, the low entrance keeps it in, the walls are mostly trapped air like a foam. If you have ever been in a properly made snow hole or igloo you will know how warm these are. Remember the Inuit used to go on long hunting trips with no more heat than a blubber oil lamp.
With modern matierals you can construct an igloo that doesnt melt and isnt cold to touch. Why not build one for your bees?
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However, on a lighter side, it is NOT true that clothing needs high temps to dry :?. All one needs is bright sunshine, they'll still dry just fine (maybe a little stiff) when temps are well below freezing and hung on a line in the yard. Try it 8-)
i must tell what happened hen I spent hollyday in Malysea Langawi.
The weather was mere sweet. Temp 30 C and 100% moisture (at least).
I washed my shirts and I put them in bight sun. Nothing happened. They dis not dried.
Only place to dry clothes was cooled room. Temp was cooled to 22C and in that process the moisture is condensed into cooling machine. The room air was dry, I do not know how many percents.
In winter when temp is -20C, you may wash your clothes and put them into frost air.
After a while clothes are stiff like ice can be. But the clothes dry up in the frost air.
Actully a big part of snow evaporates direct from ice form to gas form to air moisture.
When you look forecast data, relative moisture goes daily from 95% to 50% and again to 90% at night. That affect on hive drying too.
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Picture an insulated box sides and top with screened inner cover and insulation above that, gable type out cover with vents in the gable. this retains heat allows moisture to pass out the top vented to outside..I don't ever want to open another hive and find an ice ball of bees..I frame this body just like framed wall in a house, ripping 2x4s to 5/8 x 1 1/2 using this for studs and plates, 1-1/2in foam in the wall wi 1/8in hardboard skin in and out, fiber glass ins above. Not recommending this, its just the way I do it..dl
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The most critical part of the hive is the top. If the temperature of the inner surface of the cover reaches the dew point, then condensation will form and drip on the bees. So the first thing is to insulate the top. We just use a half inch solid foam on the exterior of the top. Since the interior surface of the top will then be warmer than the interior of the sides, any condensation will form on the sides and run harmlessly to the bottom of the hive.
Our screened bottoms are reduced but not closed completely. You want to have enough air exchanges so that the interior humidity can track the outside humidity. If the outside temperature falls rapidly and drops below the dew point, there will be condensation outside the hive. This make the outside air dryer. If that air exchanges with interior air, the moisture is removed from the hive. If the hive is too tight, the interior surfaces can reach the interior dew point and cause interior condensation.
Of course Finski is right about what works in his cold climate. I'm sure that full insulation and limited ventilation works there. I don't think the extra insulation is necessary in North Carolina where a little ventilation is a much cheaper option.
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I'm sure that full insulation and limited ventilation works there.
I don't think the extra insulation is necessary in North Carolina where a little ventilation is a much cheaper option.
insulation and ventilation options. No way! They are not alternatives.
"Bees die for dampness not for cold". The most stupid sentence beekeepers have ever invented.
A proper ventilation? What is difficult in that?
Beekeepers do not understand either the meaning of warm hive in Spring build up. Spring is long. In our climate it is 3 months when the hive has the brood temperature 36C and food consumption is high. Weather are often so bad that bees cannot come out.
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The trouble we always seem to have is in anthropomorphism. While it's true you wouldn't want to open a window in a room full of people without an external source of heat, it would depend on the number of people, the volume of the room and the size of the window. Take into account the number of individuals in a Beehive.
In a room of humans, you wouldn't have them hanging from the walls, the rooms would be shallow and spread out increasing the surface area, and everyone would probably be keeping personal space unlike bees who can't seem to get enough of each other.
In my beehives, I'll close the entrances down to about 1 or 1 1/2 x 3/8 inches, and have a 3/4 or 1 x 1/4 inch vent in the top cover farthest from the entrance. The amount of air exchange is not going to be that large. The cross-section of that "chimney" is somewhere around 1/3 an inch^2 (2cm^2). The volume of a single deep and shallow super is 2.5 cubic feet (71 Liter).
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I remember my work place public works of Helsinki. City council of Helsinki is the biggest employer in Finland.
Our public works had architects, engineers and what ever who took care of ventilation of public buildings. But in our meeting room, where we had 100 persons, was hot, lack of oxygen and filled with carbon diokside. No window open and air did not changed in basement floor.
I can convince that the audience was full of knowledge but it did not change that meeting room. It was allways same during 20 years what I was there.
"Well planned is half done amd often it remains there".
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The trouble we always seem to have is in anthropomorphism. While it's true you wouldn't want to open a window in a room full of people without an external source of heat, it would depend on the number of people, the volume of the room and the size of the window. Take into account the number of individuals in a Beehive.
In a room of humans, you wouldn't have them hanging from the walls, the rooms would be shallow and spread out increasing the surface area, and everyone would probably be keeping personal space unlike bees who can't seem to get enough of each other.
In my beehives, I'll close the entrances down to about 1 or 1 1/2 x 3/8 inches, and have a 3/4 or 1 x 1/4 inch vent in the top cover farthest from the entrance. The amount of air exchange is not going to be that large. The cross-section of that "chimney" is somewhere around 1/3 an inch^2 (2cm^2). The volume of a single deep and shallow super is 2.5 cubic feet (71 Liter).
the issue is not anthromorphism but trying to use analogy to explain straight forward physics questions and answers.
q1: You have a varable small heat source ~20w to 5w that that combusts saccherides it emits water vapour and Co2, requires o2 .
what regime of insulation and ventilation is required to regulate a temperature between 25c and 34c in a cavity of 40litres in ambient temptures of 10c to -20c.
q2: given your answer to q1 what changes are necessary for temps above 10c.
q3: given your anser to q1 what happens to the water vapour.
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Bees don't build igloos, people do:shock: Traditional igloos were heated w/ whale oil (and to a lesser extent, human generated body heat) and people sure don't stay in igloos for months on end w/out relieving themselves. To suggest so or to include human activity as part of this debate as examples over how to properly house bees lacks credibility IMO :).
What is 'natural' for a bee hive?
I don't know, but I've seen and heard of them occupying some pretty strange places 'other than' trees.
There was a pic floating around here awhile back w/ a colony occupying an empty gas tank. Hows that for preference?
Honestly, it seems clear that a lot of this banter serves only to stroke the egos of some presenters and offers little real insight into "bee behavior" or bee preference which is what I'm looking for (guess its why I always get sucked into these discussions :-D).
thomas
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Bees don't build igloos, people do:shock: Traditional igloos were heated w/ whale oil (and to a lesser extent, human generated body heat) and people sure don't stay in igloos for months on end w/out relieving themselves. To suggest so or to include human activity as part of this debate as examples over how to properly house bees lacks credibility IMO :).
What is 'natural' for a bee hive?
I don't know, but I've seen and heard of them occupying some pretty strange places 'other than' trees.
There was a pic floating around here awhile back w/ a colony occupying an empty gas tank. Hows that for preference?
Honestly, it seems clear that a lot of this banter serves only to stroke the egos of some presenters and offers little real insight into "bee behavior" or bee preference which is what I'm looking for (guess its why I always get sucked into these discussions :-D)."
thomas
the specieis of occupant/contructor of an igloo is irelavent to its thermal behaviour.
If you dont want analogy - then go read the scientific literature on bee behaviour they show conclusively bees prefer bottom entrances over top entrances, and do the maths on the conduction and convection characterisitic of tree cavitys . And you will find the bees "know" their physics. Go read the papers of prof Thomas Seeley or his books.
Although bees will put up with substandard accomodation they have a distinct preference for better.
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ASK the BEES
Do your bees want a top vent or entrance?
Create a top vent about 2~4 sq cm. Cover it with a mesh with about 1mm ~ 2mm holes.
Then let the bees decide.
if they dont want it they will propolise it over. If they do want a top vent/entrance, they will leave it clear.
Do your bees want more insulation?
Increase the insulation - and ask the same question as above vent or no topvent? if they change their mind about the top vent or start fanning all the time its obviously too warm.
My bees even in an insulated hive wanted it closed even at 10c nights
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Jack
I incurage you to try your idea. I built an insulated cover out of 1 1/2" thermax last winter and ran it on my one and only hive.
It worked quite well. The bees seamed to stay warm and dry.
The box I built had three inches of thermax in the top, one and a half inches on the sides and included a one and a half inch space between the hive and box. I than screwed three wooden angles to the sides and back
of the hive for the insulated box to sit on leaving the front open. I also drilled some vent. holes in the insulated box witch I plug or remove depending on the weather.
Good luck
John
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ASK the BEES
Do your bees want a top vent or entrance?
Create a top vent. Cover it a mesh with about 1mm ~ 2mm holes.
Then let the bees decide.
if they dont want it they will propolise it over. If they do want a top vent/entrance, they will leave it clear.
Do your bees want more insulation?
Increase the insulation - and ask the same question as above vent or no topvent? if they change their mind about the top vent or start fanning all the time its obviously too warm.
My bees even in an insulated hive wanted it closed even at 10c nights
and what bees answered. They did say nothing. They just drew conclusion and vahished. = DCV
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and what bees answered. They did say nothing. They just drew conclusion and vahished. = DCV
DCV=CCD? (colony collapse disorder)
I am still on "speaking terms" with my colonies and I still have them :)
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Ok, Derekm,
I'll try just once. Nowhere have I said, written, implied, or inferred that insulating a hive is a waste of time. In fact I've said that the winter will be more survivable if the temperature is closer to the winter climate of North Carolina than Central Minnesota.
I can safely assume when you bed down you cover yourself with a cloth of some kind. I once got the idea I could make an emergency sleeping bag from the packing cellulose foam from shipping furniture. Great stuff, but didn't allow any exchange of air. I was warm, but soaked within minutes. A blanket allows for fresh air to creep in while the moisture laden air seeps out through the holes in the weave. I'm using the same foam between the outer and inner covers, I don't have those oblong holes in the center of my inner covers.
You are making the assumption the bees are heating the inside of the hive body. Just because you feel the warmth in the hive does not mean they are intentionally heating it. That is anthropomorphising. The bees are balling up and heating that ball (http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/). When the USDA says the bees don't heat the inside of the hive, but ball up to conserve that heat in the cluster I don't use choplogic to justify my picture of bees sitting around a wood stove, drinking cowboy coffee and eating cow pies.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desperate_Dan#Characteristics)
The flaw in your observations is that a mass of bees will have to produce a certain number of calories to keep the inside temperature, and replace the numbers with new heat producers. If brood production is stopped until the relative start of spring to conserve stores, the surviving bees will have to produce that much more heat to maintain the inside temperature. Those sugars and proteins will produce more waste products than Carbon Dioxide and Water vapor. Though less bees would use the same stores, they would produce more solid wastes per capita, meaning more cleansing flights, and work themselves to death more quickly.
It's pretty obvious you didn't actually read my post, because I had already answered one question you asked, "q3: given your anser to q1 what happens to the water vapour." It goes out t'hole meboyo! Water vapor has a lower specific gravity than air (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-gravities-gases-d_334.html). Even if the inside temperature and outside are the same the water vapor still rises.
In fact your argument that the bees decide is ad hominem. If you cover an upper entrance with mesh 1/8 an inch (3mm) or less, they will propolize it pretty much anyway. You should leave it open. I've seen entire openings to tree hives closed with propolis, and I had one hive try to cover a hole of 2cm^2 in the heat of summer.
That's all I'm going to say on the subject, I'll let you get back to disproving Einstein.
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insulation and ventilation options. No way! They are not alternatives.
I think they are alternatives in the sense that one can compensate for the other. If you have less insulation, the interior temp of the hive will be lower and therefore you are more likely to have condensation. More ventilation will reduce the probability of condensation and so it compensates for less insulation. That trade-off may not make sense in Finland but it does make sense in North Carolina.
"Bees die for dampness not for cold". The most stupid sentence beekeepers have ever invented.
Bees don't die from cold in North Carolina. In a normal year, it only takes 3 frames of honey to take 7 frames of bees from early December until they can bring in Spring forage. It does not get cold enough to kill the bees outright. And it's not cold enough to force them to use up all their food if you give them 3 frames. And most of that 3 frames is used to raise brood in February. Pollen starts in late February and nectar in March.
The bees may die from starvation if the winter weather is too warm. Then they may use up all their food because they fly when there is no forage. And yes, the bees can die from "dampness" if condensate drips on the cluster.
Beekeepers do not understand either the meaning of warm hive in Spring build up. Spring is long. In our climate it is 3 months when the hive has the brood temperature 36C and food consumption is high. Weather are often so bad that bees cannot come out.
Spring in North Carolina lasts about 6 weeks, March 7- April 21. May can be very hot. The bees will have moderate forage although the main flow starts in late April or early May. This is where an open screened bottom board can help. Hives with open bottoms warm up faster each day. The bees will fly earlier and can gather more forage in a day because they got an early start. It's very different from Finland. :-D
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You are making the assumption the bees are heating the inside of the hive body. Just because you feel the warmth in the hive does not mean they are intentionally heating it. That is anthropomorphising. The bees are balling up and heating that ball (http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/). When the USDA says the bees don't heat the inside of the hive, but ball up to conserve that heat in the cluster I don't use choplogic to justify my picture of bees sitting around a wood stove, drinking cowboy coffee and eating cow pies.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desperate_Dan#Characteristics)
In fact your argument that the bees decide is ad hominem. ...
I suggest you look up the meaniing of "ad hominem" . i also suggest you look at fig 11 in the work you cite of the usda. you will see there that the bees succeed in partially heating up a insulated hive.
Bee s in winter in produce 20watts. They keep what they can of their winter population warm, with the level of heat that they have. That they cannot heat an entire hive with thermal losses of greater than 1w per degree centrade to 34c with an ambient below 14c is simple arithematic. I am not using "chop logic", if you want me to cite papers and books on bee behaviour and take you through the maths of the heat flow, I can.
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you guys are getting pretty deep- :lol: in my hives when it gets real cold
the bees form tight cluster and they dont try to heat the hive body-they
* maintain heat in the cluster*-this is a characteristic of EHB-however there
are bees that dont form tight cluster-AHB for example-RDY-B
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Bees heat the cluster. It has been explained in every single beekeeping book.
BUT THE CLUSTER LEAKS HEAT AND HEAT THE CAVITY.
Apis mellifera has learned to use tree cavity as its home, because the cavity keeps the cluster warm.
Apis cerana like to live in open space. It keeps all the time 36 temp in the cluster.
If you understand the big evolution, you understand perhaps the meaning of tree cavity.
Have you heard that mellifera lives in stone cavities?
But cerana love to make its combs onto stone surface in Japan.
In Japan cerana lives at the level of Texas.
The mesh floor warm up the bee hive! ....yes and our cows can fly....
Last I read that tar paper warm up the hive.
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maybe put bees in sunshine not shadows of cold wind-- ;) RDY-B
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How the hives stay warm at night and over rainy week?
When I heat the hives in Spring bees like electrict heating up to 17C day temp. Over that bees start to ventilate extra heat away.
Strange is that biggest hives get best advantage from electrict. Best advantage comes in May.
Night temps are near zero celsius and days are +5 - +15C. Under freezing point nights are usual.
+20C warm spells are rare.
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*Strange is that biggest hives get best advantage from electrict. Best advantage comes in May.
Night temps are near zero celsius and days are +5 - +15C. Under freezing point nights are usual.
+20C warm spells are rare.*
strange indeed -no advantage to dead bees in snow-bees fly out and fall to snow stunned by cold
save electric for blanket for your feet-- :) RDY-B
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there are bees that dont form tight cluster-AHB for example-RDY-B
RDY-B, do you think the inability of AHB to survive in higher latitudes is a factor of smaller clusters, knowing AHB have a tendency to swarm more often, or looser clusters? I mean, "smaller" not having enough bees, or "looser" meaning not keeping the heat in?
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As this thread deteriorates it has only further confirmed my long held belief that "all beekeeping is local" and some beekeepers just like to go on and on and on and on :-D insisting that everyone must 'see it their way' (and that just ain't gonna happen. Not w/ this group ;).
Take some breaths and practice some acceptance please :).
Its been said (many times) before but some don't like to read complete posts (a lot like another human flaw, that of not listening when someone else is talking, and on the web, there's no excuse for it).
What works in the UK, Finland, Wisconsin, California or North Carolina doesn't necessarily work 'well' someplace else. A concept that's hard to grasp for some it seems, even for some brainiacs :-D
thomas
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The moisture in the hives is good for the Bees
The use it for drinking water
transported Florida cracker has figured the whole thing out
Good Day :-D
Tommyt
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The mesh floor warm up the bee hive! ....yes and our cows can fly....
Yes, because there are big swings in temperature between day and night in the early spring. The SBB allows warm outside air to come quickly into the hive and gets the bees flying early in the day. Yes, the SBB makes the hive colder at night but it's warmer by 10AM. It's a good trade-off in the Spring.
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If we play natural, Apis mellifera should no be on American continent.
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Yes, because there are big swings in temperature between day and night in the early spring. The SBB allows warm outside air to come quickly into the hive and gets the bees flying early in the day.
i am really tired to talk that nonsence.
Bees have steady temperature in heir hives they are not lizards which heat themselves in the morning sun.
Often nectar has so much water in the morning that it is bad idea to go forage morning mist from flowers. What bee do is that they bring very ealy drinking water from mist droplets.
Mesh floor for ever!
Yes, I cannot win stupid in depating. I must admit my loss. Mesh floor heats hives. Wow. Why I byed terrarium heaters?
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Bees have steady temperature in heir hives they are not lizards which heat themselves in the morning sun.
The hive box is NOT at a steady temperature. The cluster is. The capped brood is. But the interior of the box varies between day and night, at least if you don't use a lot of insulation. :-D
I can watch my hives which are in a long row. As the morning sun rises over the trees and moves across the beeyard, each hive wakes up and starts to fly in the order that the sun hits them. The combination of open bottoms and sunshine heats the hive up quickly.
Insulation works both ways. It prevents heat loss at night and prevents warming in the morning. If you have long periods of cold weather, that's fine because the bees aren't going to be flying anyway. And we block our SBB by 90% in the winter. But in the spring we remove the wind block so the hive can heat up in the morning.
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As this thread deteriorates it has only further confirmed my long held belief that "all beekeeping is local" and some beekeepers just like to go on and on and on and on :-D insisting that everyone must 'see it their way' (and that just ain't gonna happen. Not w/ this group ;).
Take some breaths and practice some acceptance please :).
Its been said (many times) before but some don't like to read complete posts (a lot like another human flaw, that of not listening when someone else is talking, and on the web, there's no excuse for it).
What works in the UK, Finland, Wisconsin, California or North Carolina doesn't necessarily work 'well' someplace else. A concept that's hard to grasp for some it seems, even for some brainiacs :-D
thomas
I like to hear how others do it--most of the differences that come up are on perception of science and physics
we really do know that there are many ways -and that dose not make them wrong -but so far i would have to say that NORTH CAROLINA sounds like a good place to keep bees -keeping bees in snow country is a challenge from the start-and this thread is just a pregame warm up -every year the subject comes up wait till about DEC we have many profesors working on this isue-and thats a good thing- :lol: RDY-B
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One guy told in this forum how he wrap his hive.
He puts only to north side the tar paper,
because cold comes from north.
Yes, what works there, it does not work here.
Our cold comes from east from Russian Siberian high pressure.
UK send us the rains.
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we gave you a deticated post -why dont you refer pepole to it-???
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31989.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31989.0.html)
:lol: RDY-B
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A standard wooden hive has conductivity of 6w per degree C and the bees need at least some of them to be at 34C, The bees have no choice but to cluster as it would take 100s of kilogrammes of honey to get through winter if they heated every bee and the volume of the hive to 34C. (yes i have done the maths)
A tree hollow has a conductivity of somewhere between 1 watt per degree C and 0.3w per degree C depending on the thickness of solid and rotten wood. Now in such a tree hollow the possibility exists for the bees not to cluster. If the bees use 16kg of honey in a winter, this could average out at ~20Watts . 20watts in a tree hollow could heat the the entire hollow to 34C even if it was well below zero C outside. Can bees survive in such a warm hollow? I think they have done so for thousands of years Do they cluster in such a hollow? probably not. However, we can conduct an experiment to find out if they do cluster even when there is no themal need.
At this moment I have a colony in a 0.4W per Degree C hive. They were split into that type of hive, and the queen has been in such a hive from egg onwards. The hive is bottom entrance, with a floor that has a plastic coated foam grill with about 15% open area. This grill is heavily shielded from draughts and cooling from below but allows ventilation and trash to fall down and out. This floor is completely unlike any other you may have seen. in addition the entrance is designed to shield the hive floor from drafts.
The difference in the behavior of the bees compared to a conventional hive is remarkable. How they get on this winter we shall see.
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Derekem,
Sounds fascinating. Do you have photos of this?
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at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B
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at 54 mine fly. they must be FHB (Finnish honey bees) :evil:
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Derekem,
Sounds fascinating. Do you have photos of this?
The Nuc of the same construction is shown on bluebee poly nuc thread... foilcoated Polyurethane foam painted green on the outside
PU nuc (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34274.msg289403.html#msg289403)
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at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B
When its 49F outside my bees just lounge around as its still 66F+ at floor level in their hive even the entrance fully open. They must be GBIHB
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at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B
When its 49F outside my bees just lounge around as its still 66F+ at floor level in their hive even the entrance fully open. They must be GBIHB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_cluster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_cluster) :? RDY-B
who said outside temps --I said air temp--that would be measured from air inside of hive body
this is important because it has correlation to insulating the hive to control clustering temps-
I still think that if you insulate and trick the bees you are going to find that if they are not clustered
they will fly-thank you kathy for that supporting fact 8-) -so if its to cold and bees fly outside they will
be on a flight of no return--RDY-B
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at 54 degree-f (12 c) air temp-EHB forms cluster-its in there nature-RDY-B
When its 49F outside my bees just lounge around as its still 66F+ at floor level in their hive even the entrance fully open. They must be GBIHB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_cluster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_cluster) :? RDY-B
if you build hives the beyond the capability of bees to heat, they dont heat them. Its the thermal equivalent of proving a=a.
and bees have lived in warm trees and lived to fly again
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I've had bees flying as long as its above freezing (32F), no wind and sunny, even fresh packages from Texas.
thomas
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I've had bees flying as long as its above freezing (32F), no wind and sunny, even fresh packages from Texas.
thomas
lots of dead bees in the snow - suicide flight for bees --yes bees will fly when its cold-it is not
the best thing for the bee-the bees nature is clustering at temps that are preordained by there design
and* environment*-the bottom line is you cant keep honeybees in the cold if they dont cluster -if you think otherwise
i am open minded to you reasoning
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When bees are in winter cluster, its temp in the middle is 23C.
If it has brood, like in February, brood area temp is 36C
have you calculated how much a hive consumes in autumn per month when the hive has settled into cluster? I have balance measures, but what you have calculated?
Langstroth box is full of bees.
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I've had bees flying as long as its above freezing (32F), no wind and sunny, even fresh packages from Texas.
thomas
lots of dead bees in the snow - suicide flight for bees --yes bees will fly when its cold-it is not
the best thing for the bee-the bees nature is clustering at temps that are preordained by there design
and* environment*-the bottom line is you cant keep honeybees in the cold if they dont cluster -if you think otherwise
i am open minded to you reasoning
read Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118.
apimondia (http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi) use this link and search for villumstad as the author
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When bees are in winter cluster, its temp in the middle is 23C.
If it has brood, like in February, brood area temp is 36C
have you calculated how much a hive consumes in autumn per month when the hive has settled into cluster? I have balance measures, but what you have calculated?
Langstroth box is full of bees.
finski, I dont have access to my mathematical model on this particular PC. I recall it uses an average sucrose consumption for the whole winter period to determine average power.. It uses a total sucrose weight of 12.5KG over a number of months 5 IRC. Please if you have month by month weight consumption data I can improve my model by understanding the maximum and minimum.
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yes good read lots of info-all the hives maintained clusters-insulated hives did better
but they did not reach point of insulation that bees did not cluster-
there is no doubt that there can be improvements in the colony with some help to overcome
adverse environmental conditions -but we need to understand why bees respond to conditions
that are influencing there actions-
bees dont think they react to manipulations and conditions that are put apone them
weather it is smoke or a insulated hive body once you go to far it is certain perele for them
:) RDY-B
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yes good read lots of info-all the hives maintained clusters-insulated hives did better
but they did not reach point of insulation that bees did not cluster-
there is no doubt that there can be improvements in the colony with some help to overcome
adverse environmental conditions -but we need to understand why bees respond to conditions
that are influencing there actions-
bees dont think they react to manipulations and conditions that are put apone them
weather it is smoke or a insulated hive body once you go to far it is certain perele for them
:) RDY-B
The only way to find out is to try it... thats what I'm doing. The behaviours of bee colonies are complex, So I think it would be a mistake to assume that the behaviour in radically changed circumstances is going to the same.
Bee colonies will have been exposed to this level of insulation in their natural environment, but what did the bees do?
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so far i would have to say that NORTH CAROLINA sounds like a good place to keep bees
Well, it has it's problems too. We have a 6 week long dearth from mid July till the end of August. The way to get alot of honey is to have the largest possible number of bees when the maximum flow is on. But our flow is divided into two parts.... the main one in the Spring and then another minor flow in the Fall. So we end up with lots of bees in August when there is no forage. They still want to eat, so much of the honey from Spring gets eaten by the bees in late Summer. It's easier in colder climates because there is just one long flow season and if you can build up a bunch of bees, they all get a shot at bringing in forage.
The heaviest honey crops in the US are in Minnesota and South Dakota. More like Finland than North Carolina.
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Lots of honey does not make beekeeping 'easier' in the North. That's an assumption based on historical yields which 'can' be outstanding during outstanding 'honey' years which has little to do the amount of work required. With the abnormal temps (70's and 80's) we've been experiencing in the North, my bees have suffered a dearth for going on a month right now, going through 100 lbs of sugar a week w/ my 3 boomer colonies and a little NUC.
Nonetheless, beekeeping where winters can/do last longer than 7 months can be challenging, to say the least.
I personally believe the closer one is to the equator would substantially provide a beek (and their bees) w/ that alleged 'easier' time of it :-D.
thomas
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It's like that bold saying that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, Southern Minnesota was also a challenge this year.
Cold spring lasted till the end of June. July and Augest brought record heat. Then it stopped raining and fall was nothing but dearth.
Like the farmers say. Theres always next year.
John
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I worked outside and inside in construction with buildings of various levels of insulation and closure. I've actually built and slept in an igloo. I've built lived and slept in a tipi up in the mountains in the winter. I've lived in a 9x9 tent and a lean too. I've lived in the back of a station wagon. Pretty much everything. I can tell you the thermo dynamics of a basically unheated space (other than body heat) is much different than most of you imagine. Some things make a bigger difference than you think and some make a smaller difference than you think. Space is a big factor. A smaller space is much warmer. Color is a big factor. White is much warmer than green. The thickness of the fabric is a big factor. Thicker is noticeably warmer. A double wall is noticeably warmer. A lot of thick insulation makes less of a difference, once you are up to thick fabric in a double wall, although it makes some, it also messes with some of the air flow if you fill that double wall space with leaves, grass, etc. You need a certain amount of ventilation to prevent condensation. The double wall helps with this as well. Condensation dripping on you is a real problem in the winter. A wet sleeping bag will kill you. If you want to test some of your theoretical concepts in reality, try building a tent and sleeping in it in the winter and then make those adjustments you think will help and see how much difference they do or do not make.
Here is a list of some of the factors:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering)
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Lots of honey does not make beekeeping 'easier' in the North.
thomas
You are correct of course. When I said "it is easier in colder climates" the "it" I was referring to was the task of synchronizing maximum bees with maximum flow. I just meant that one long flow is a bigger target than two smaller flows. I don't think cold climate beekeeping is easy by any means.
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If you want to test some of your theoretical concepts in reality, try building a tent and sleeping in it in the winter and then make those adjustments you think will help and see how much difference they do or do not make.
Yessir! This I have done! I can't say I've had the experience you have Mr. Bush, but I can lay claim to at least the above statement. I can tell all keeping dry by laying a tarp on the floor is important, that a mattress is worth several hours of sleep than keeping dry when you are sleeping on the ground. If you want to be comfortable, a tent stove is like heaven.
"How bees regulate temperature," is always a bone of contention here at Beemaster. This thread has jumped up 2 pages in the 24 hours I left it alone. I have to say how they keep warm isn't so much an issue than what condition the colony is in at the start of brooding in the spring.
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some potentially misleading statements in there
" A smaller space is much warmer" A smaller space is not warmer it just has less surface area to lose heat by conduction, and less volume to create stratification.
"A lot of thick insulation makes less of a difference, once you are up to thick fabric in a double wall, although it makes some," Thermal resistance is Thermal resistance
"You need a certain amount of ventilation to prevent condensation." This is incorrect. You just need to keep the relative humidity under control in the volumes and places where you you need to control it.
Ventilation is only one of a number of solutions to this . e.g. dehumidifiers, preferential cooling, desisicants.
Strictly speaking Ventilation does not prevent condensation it is just putting the place of condensation outside the volume. While attractively obvious, it has the great disadvantage of losing a lot of heat.
Having camped in both single skin and double skin tents in snow and in temperatures well below zero, inhabitated snow holes and igloos, its not just theoretical.
A final comment, you seem to get away with a lot more "anthropomorhizing" from the readers, than other contributors.
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A final comment, you seem to get away with a lot more "anthropomorhizing" from the readers, than other contributors.
WOW! I actually had to look up anthropomorhizing! :-D Good reading this thread has been...
...DOUG
KD4MOJ
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The amount of heat you need to waste inorder to remove the moisture contributed by respiration is only about 10% of the heat gained from the honey the bees consume.
Thus if the colony is producing 20 Watts in still air you should only need to chill 2 Watts away to remove the moisture. (from calorific content of honey and latent heat of vapourisation of the contained and generated water) We should be able to aim for 5 Watts. Top entrances blow the whole 20 Watts away and then some more.
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>" A smaller space is much warmer" A smaller space is not warmer it just has less surface area to lose heat by conduction, and less volume to create stratification.
Anyone who has stayed in both knows they (the creature) are less cold in a smaller space. You can argue all you want about what the thermometer says.
>"A lot of thick insulation makes less of a difference, once you are up to thick fabric in a double wall, although it makes some," Thermal resistance is Thermal resistance
From the point of view of how chilled you get, that first little bit makes a lot of difference. After that it makes a lot less.
>"You need a certain amount of ventilation to prevent condensation." This is incorrect. You just need to keep the relative humidity under control in the volumes and places where you you need to control it.
But since you create the humidity by respiration and by metabolism, that moisture has to go somewhere.
>Ventilation is only one of a number of solutions to this . e.g. dehumidifiers, preferential cooling, desisicants.
I never had an outlet for a dehumidifier in a tent or a beehive.
>Strictly speaking Ventilation does not prevent condensation it is just putting the place of condensation outside the volume. While attractively obvious, it has the great disadvantage of losing a lot of heat.
It depends on the amount how that affects your bodies heat loss. A little is enough to prevent condensation and that is not noticeable.
>Having camped in both single skin and double skin tents in snow and in temperatures well below zero, inhabitated snow holes and igloos, its not just theoretical.
My point exactly. I have done all of the above.
> A final comment, you seem to get away with a lot more "anthropomorhizing" from the readers, than other contributors.
I am describing a warm blooded organism with a metabolism that creates CO2 and water from sugar, in an outdoor unheated habitation; and comparing it to a warm blooded superorganism with a metabolism that creates CO2 and water from sugar, in an outdoor unheated habitation. I think that is a reasonable comparison.
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I can see that folks have serious promlems to understan insulating.
Insulating is not ment to hinder condensation. It ismeant to keep bees warm and save their winterfood.
In Pring insulation accelerate Spring build up.
IF YOU LIVE IN WARM CLIMATE AND YOU DON'T NEED INSULATION, DON'T TRY TO CLAIME THE IN COLDER CLIMATE IT IS NOT NEEDED.
The mesh bottom has nothing to do with insulation. It makes the hive colder that fast bottom. At leat it does not heat the hive and neither does the tarpaper. BEES DO THEIR HEAT FROM FOOD.
you should understand that if my hives need 20 kg on average winter food at the level of Anchorage, how in the warmer climate and in 2-3 months shorter winter are needed 60 kg winterfood. Something to do with insulation.
But the most important thing is locally adapted beestock. If the bees are from south and do not form a winter cluster in time, no food will save the hive. You do not even handle this issue.
One Langstroth box can contain 25 kg honey or food.
That stupid condensation has been raised the huge wintering problem. But it is the smallest one.
If you have a mesh floor, you need not to know nothing about condensation.
If you have a fast bottom, drill into front wall a 15 mm hole and that's it.
Cold kills the hive when food is finish. So simple. If you have insulation, food will be consumed much less, 30% - 50%. If a colony keeps too high temp in its hive they will be dead in the middle of winter.
When bees make a winter cluster in Autumn, they consume only one kg food in month.
(out temp is 0-10C)
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Finiski is right, few understand insulation and venting. Some folks have parts of it right, some don't, some have things confused.
First, when I say venting, I an not meaning full airflow through the hive. Venting is a passive act of allowing a small amount of air with moisture to passively move out of the heated area and still supply a volume of fresh oxygen.
It is much easier to keep a small space at temperature than a large one, but the factors of heat loss will remain the same regardless of size. The key with the smaller size is that there is less wasted space that needs heat. Dead air space is what insulation creates, regardless of the type of insulation. Now you go a wrap a hive in plastic and you just killed the ability of the moisture to permeate (vent) out of the hive.
As soon as that occurs the moisture will condense at any point where the temperature reaches the dew point. Protruding nails will get condensation first. By allowing normal air flow outside the hive (Insulated or not) and keeping the dead air space inside the hive the moisture should not condense at all even if not insulated. But there is still passive permeation of moisture away from the highest to the lower direction...just like heat moves to cold.
Insulation only slows down the movement of heat to cold....not the other way around. Insulation creates dead air space which is where the resistance to the flow of heat is the most. The moisture comes from the bee's normal exhalation and from the ambient humidity. For example fiberglass under a microscope is a bunch of strands crisscrossing all over and those create air spaces. The foams create dead air spaces as the chemicals catalyze, the smaller the better. Cellulose actually has air spaces in the fibers themselves, but it is not suitable for this as it has pesticide in it.
Then, most of this is really mute if you are in a warm climate. My winter climate is cool, just above freezing, horribly wet 40+ inches a year of rain. I will vent. You do as you please. Once the moisture condenses you loose resistance to the flow of heat as water is a much better conductor of heat. Those bees will be fine in an insulated hive with an inch or so of foam on the exterior. The air will stratify and if they cluster it will make it even easier for them to keep their ideal temperature.
I also recently learned from a dude up in a wetter and cooler environment, but still local, and he believes in an empty super at the bottom of the hive below the brood frames. He feels the bees do better in the winter with that dead air space below, which stratifies the cold and warm in the hive...think of it as a basement. He came up with this from getting hives out of trees. Remember, originally before man intervened, in cold climates bees used trees....because they are warm. Wood is an awesome natural insulator.
So, the field of insulation is much more complex than most folks know. Venting is an integral part of making insulation work properly and by doing that, you don't get condensation, even at 100% humidity.
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The mesh bottom has nothing to do with insulation. It makes the hive colder than fast bottom. At least it does not heat the hive
Finski, my point was that if the outside temperature is higher than the inside temperature, the screened bottom allows the hive interior to heat up faster in the morning. The inverse is also true. At night the hive will be colder because of the SBB. In a moderate Spring climate, that's ok. It keeps the bees in cluster at night and gets them moving in the morning. That is ideal.
But this only works where there is a large swing in temperatures between day and night. In the Springtime, extreme cold is not a problem but lack of morning warmth is a problem. I have lived as far north as 64 degrees N. I know that the Spring sun is weak. But at 36N it may be cold at night but very warm as the sun comes up. Your insulated hive will stay cold inside but an SBB hive will warm up quickly. You are focused on protection from extreme cold. I am thinking about warming the hive way up early in the day.
If you have a mesh floor, you need not to know nothing about condensation.
If you have a fast bottom, drill into front wall a 15 mm hole and that's it.
We also have a small vent at the edge of the top. It is slanted downward so it does not act as a chimney. It does bleed off the humid air just under the top.
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Protruding nails will get condensation first.
In our climate... and I think in your climate too, insulation on the exterior of the top is adequate. If the R value of the top is higher than the R value of the sides, any condensation will occur harmlessly on the sides. Just like your protruding nail.
Insulating only the top may not increase the overall temperature of the hive box but it changes the location of any condensation that does occur. To the extent that stratification does occur, top insulation will warm the area near the top of the hive. Since I use horizontal hives, that means that the area at the top of each frame where the bees cluster will be warmer.
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[e, that's ok. It keeps the bees in cluster at night and gets them moving in the morning. That is ideal.
- how can it be higher when the brood temperature is 36C
- and why it should keep bees in cluster?
Your insulated hive will stay cold inside but an SBB hive will warm up quickly.
- ha hah ha and hah. Bees keep the hive warm, not sun. Can't you understand that.
In spring hive consumes 3-4 kg in one week when it consumes in Autumn 1 kg in month.
Brood produce as much heat as a resting bee. when a larva is full size, it looses 1/3 of its weight during pupa stage.
You are focused on protection from extreme cold.
- my plase is not extreme cold. Canada is colder. We do not have on beekeeping area -40C like in Winnibeg Canada.
I am thinking about warming the hive way up early in the day.
- you need not think of it. Bees take care themselves. What I think in Spring is that is it enough that bees can fly to willows and get pollen.
Why should they warm up early?
Many beekeers use here mesh floor. Many are mad with them. Some keep them open all the time, some close them for winter. A mesh floor is a religion. So called "modern beekeeper's bottom. - heh!
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Cold kills the hive when food is finish. So simple. If you have insulation, food will be consumed much* less*,30% - 50%. If a colony keeps too high temp in its hive they will be dead in the middle of winter.
When bees make a winter cluster in Autumn, they consume only one kg food in month.
(out temp is 0-10C)
this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
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this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
pure nonsence...
Have yo research or balance data about this fact?
But I admit that I have killed couple of big hives when I have pressed them into too small wintering space. They have run too hot during winter. a small cluster was outside even in January and they ventilated.
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this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
Do you want the citation of the research that refutes your reposte ?
that research investigates the level of insulation upto 0.75W per degree C or was higher that you were refering to?
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this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
Do you want the citation of the research that refutes your reposte ?
that research investigates the level of insulation upto 0.75W per degree C or was higher that you were refering to?
are you saying that bees consume more food when they are in cluster--than when they are not??? RDY-B
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this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
pure nonsence...
Have yo research or balance data about this fact?
But I admit that I have killed couple of big hives when I have pressed them into too small wintering space. They have run too hot during winter. a small cluster was outside even in January and they ventilated.
.they ran hot and ate all the food-and died from starvation-- 8-) RDY-B
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this must be a typo--bees will eat more food in hive that has to much insulation--bees eat less food when they form tight cluster--RDY-B
Do you want the citation of the research that refutes your reposte ?
that research investigates the level of insulation upto 0.75W per degree C or was higher that you were refering to?
are you saying that bees consume more food when they are in cluster--than when they are not??? RDY-B
I repeat
read Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118.
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Wood is an awesome natural insulator.
....
So, the field of insulation is much more complex than most folks know. Venting is an integral part of making insulation work properly and by doing that, you don't get condensation, even at 100% humidity.
A correction you dont need venting, its just covienent not essential.
ideally It takes about 1 litre per minute to vent the moisture from 12Kg of sugar eaten over 5 months... and it will lose about 5% upwards of the heat gained from the 12kg... (yes I have done the maths) if you make a mistake and vent 20litres per minute you have lost the lot!!!
A cold(er) point (or colder sides) can effectively condense out all of the water and lose 0% upwards of the heat the bees use.
(think of the heat difference in water at 99.9C and steam at 100.1).
btw Solid wood is a mediocre insulator, it conducts many more times than foams or rotten wood.
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yes i read it--i understand what they are saying- :)
i also understand that when bees arnt in cluster they are flying
i also understand that free flying bees consume more food than clustered bees
if you have a warm autumn and winter is late your bees will fly for a longer period
of time --this is a bad thing for bees and beekeeper--reason being they are running
through there winter stores at a rapid rate and winter hasnt arrived--on the other
hand if winter is early bees form tight cluster and only consume enough food to maintain heat--
insulation to maintain heat is one thing that even the bees themselves do-are you loseing colonies
from cold or are they to far from food and starve--??? RDY-B
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yes i read it--i understand what they are saying- :)
i also understand that when bees arnt in cluster they are flying
i also understand that free flying bees consume more food than clustered bees
if you have a warm autumn and winter is late your bees will fly for a longer period
what ever the autumn is, flowers have prapered to winter. Nothing has bloomed for long time.
Bees do not fly, because there are no flowers. They do not fly for fun.
Melliferas original home is in Africa. Honeybees do better in warm climate and it over winters better in warm weather.
It is wrong to think that warm weather makes something bad to bees. Folks are allways asking that.
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its not bad for bees -they just fly and burn up there food-happened hear last dec
had a warm spell for two weeks-bees flying everyday-when they should have been sleeping
it burns there food-it burns there vitillogene and it tears up there wings--those where supposed
to be long lived winter bees-i am shure it caused harm to there longevity--RDY-B
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A correction you dont need venting, its just covienent not essential.
ideally It takes about 1 litre per minute to vent the moisture from 12Kg of sugar eaten over 5 months... and it will lose about 5% upwards of the heat gained from the 12kg... (yes I have done the maths) if you make a mistake and vent 20litres per minute you have lost the lot!!!
A cold(er) point (or colder sides) can effectively condense out all of the water and lose 0% upwards of the heat the bees use.
(think of the heat difference in water at 99.9C and steam at 100.1).
Derekm,
I'm trying to understand your post above. Are you saying that if one provides a side (wall) condensation surface (provided the top is insulated to provide a higher surface temperature) it is not necessary to vent a hive??
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its not bad for bees -they just fly and burn up there food-happened hear last dec
had a warm spell for two weeks-bees flying everyday-when they should have been sleeping
it burns there food-it burns there vitillogene and it tears up there wings--those where supposed
to be long lived winter bees-i am shure it caused harm to there longevity--RDY-B
it seems to the secret of CCD. Thousands of hives on small area and no food.
But there are around there globe same kind of areas, but CCD is only in USA.
USA is only country which collects so much hives on "wintering area".
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A correction you dont need venting, its just covienent not essential.
ideally It takes about 1 litre per minute to vent the moisture from 12Kg of sugar eaten over 5 months... and it will lose about 5% upwards of the heat gained from the 12kg... (yes I have done the maths) if you make a mistake and vent 20litres per minute you have lost the lot!!!
A cold(er) point (or colder sides) can effectively condense out all of the water and lose 0% upwards of the heat the bees use.
(think of the heat difference in water at 99.9C and steam at 100.1).
Derekm,
I'm trying to understand your post above. Are you saying that if one provides a side (wall) condensation surface (provided the top is insulated to provide a higher surface temperature) it is not necessary to vent a hive??
to remove moisture yes, after all thats how a dehumidifier works... A shielded bottom opening is still required for C02, bee, o2 egress and for the bees to perform heat management.... You
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its not bad for bees -they just fly and burn up there food-happened hear last dec
had a warm spell for two weeks-bees flying everyday-when they should have been sleeping
it burns there food-it burns there vitillogene and it tears up there wings--those where supposed
to be long lived winter bees-i am shure it caused harm to there longevity--RDY-B
it seems to the secret of CCD. Thousands of hives on small area and no food.
But there are around there globe same kind of areas, but CCD is only in USA.
USA is only country which collects so much hives on "wintering area".
Finski
they do same thing in finland--how else you gona tend your bees -cast them about like grains of sand-- :loll:
you are referring to the large holding yards that are a product of the largest migratory movement in the world
yada yada yada- ;) yes we can learn a lot from these types of things -its not a secrete-do you want graphs and spread sheets on this also--- :-D
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[
you are referring to the large holding yards that are a product of the largest migratory movement in the world
They are reindeers here. You know Santa's logistics centre.
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you now VANNA :)
VANINA IN ROOM HONEY EXTRATION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE7eKXJJ4oc#ws)
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- how can it be higher when the brood temperature is 36C
The brood temp is 36 but the hive box interior temperature may be colder than the outside temperature. Most of the thermal mass in a hive is honey. It is not generating heat. If your bees are in cluster, the cluster is warm but outside the cluster may not be. I don't know what your hive box temperature is because you are using boxes made of insulation material rather than wood. But if you have an uninsulated wooden box with SBB, the hive box interior temperature will be lower than the outside temperature once the sun comes up in the Spring Honestly, I don't know why your bees use so much food in the winter. If they stay in cluster and your insulation is so good, why do they use 40kg of sugar? My bees use about 10kg. And they are not insulated. And the wind comes in the bottom. :-D
- and why it should keep bees in cluster?
If the hive has SBB, it will be colder inside the hive box at night and the bees will go into cluster. If the box is sealed and made of insulation, maybe the bees are not in cluster and use more food?
Bees keep the hive warm, not sun. Can't you understand that.
I understand that the sun does not warm your hives. :-D But if you have an SBB and you live in the sunny South, the sun will warm up the outside temperature warmer than the hive box interior and the flow of air through the SBB then warms up the interior air. Our temperature could be 25 degrees at night and rise to 75 or 80 the next day. And there is a heating effect of the sun shining directly on the hive also. So the hive interior temp (not the brood or the cluster) may fall below freezing The next morning as the outdoor temperature rises and the sun shines on the hive box, the interior temperature of the hive will rise and the bees will come out of cluster.
What I think in Spring is that is it enough that bees can fly to willows and get pollen.
Why should they warm up early?
Well Finski, I guess if they get up earlier, they will have more time to gather pollen? And since most hive that starve do so in the Spring, I like to have my bees out getting as much nectar as they can. So your lazy bees like to stay in their warm bed and sleep late? :-D
Many beekeers use here mesh floor. Many are mad with them. Some keep them open all the time, some close them for winter. A mesh floor is a religion. So called "modern beekeeper's bottom. - heh!
We close our about 90% in Winter. That blocks the wind but still gives plenty of ventilation. But I'm not religious about anything. If I see that closed boxes worked better, I would use closed boxes.
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Honestly, I don't know why your bees use so much food in the winter. If they stay in cluster and your insulation is so good, why do they use 40kg of sugar? My bees use about 10kg. And they are not insulated. And the wind comes in the bottom. :-D
honestly I do not understand are you spamming there or not. I did not come this forum to debate, what you have there.
- I take all honey away and bye on average 20 kg sugar per hive. From where that 40 kg came?
- your hives consume 10 kg. You do not even have winter. Your main flow in in Marsh when we have one metre snow. My bees live 9 months with 20 kg sugar.
- long hives are not beehives. how yout get there 70 frames?
frameshift. We have debated for days for nothing. I was not ment to give advices to deep south where palm trees grow and sun warms in January.
If you need not insulation, it does not mean that Minnesota, Canada or Alaska do not need insulation.
And long hives, burn them like I did 45 years ago.
Childhood is over.
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Reality: today we had our first frost - outside temp at 8am: 0C...
Pu hive (0.4K) inside temp at roof level: 41C
inside temp at floor level (15% ~13% open area sheilded ) measurement point rear far corner from 30 sq cm open angled tunnel entrance: 18C
Bee type: Buckfast, originally from a bee breeder 40 miles NW from my location.
bee activitiy:one or two scouts out flying the rest are staying home at the moment
note: 18C floor is within 1 or 2 degrees of where it has been since september when they went in and entrance was opened wide
Did someone say bees dont regulate hive temperature?
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honestly I do not understand are you spamming there or not. I did not come this forum to debate, what you have there.
No, of course you didn't. That is my point. We did not come here to debate what you have in Finland either. But you always tell us that we are wrong because we don't do things your way. I think you are a good beekeeper. It's just that the trade-offs are different. I can build my own boxes out of wood. That is less expensive. I can put in a screened bottom instead of wood. That is cheaper and faster to build. I can leave honey instead of feeding sugar. That is better for the bees and I am not interested in selling honey anyway. We all do what works for us. You do that. I do that.
- I take all honey away and bye on average 20 kg sugar per hive. From where that 40 kg came?
My mistake. You said 20 kg. I converted in my head to 40 lbs. Then I remembered the number 40 and forgot that it was lbs instead of kg.
- your hives consume 10 kg. You do not even have winter. Your main flow in in Marsh when we have one metre snow. My bees live 9 months with 20 kg sugar.
We do have some Winter, but not like yours. Main flow is in May and June. And yes, I think your bees are very efficient. I was joking with you about how much food they use, but I do wonder if your bees stay in cluster all Winter.
- long hives are not beehives. how yout get there 70 frames?
Why would I need 70 frames? I have 33 frames maximum. I manage that space to get maximum honey or maximum splits or some combination of honey and splits.
frameshift. We have debated for days for nothing. I was not ment to give advices to deep south where palm trees grow and sun warms in January.
If you need not insulation, it does not mean that Minnesota, Canada or Alaska do not need insulation.
I agree. I don't try to tell you that you must use SBB. I don't try to tell you that you must use wooden boxes or long hives. So.....
And long hives, burn them like I did 45 years ago.
Childhood is over.
.....why do you tell me I should use Langstroths?
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Reality: today we had our first frost - outside temp at 8am: 0C...
Derekm, thanks for making these measurements. Yes, actual reality does help the discussion along doesn't it. :-D
Pu hive (0.4K) inside temp at roof level: 41C
Ok, what exactly is a Pu hive. What is it made of and where do you get them?
inside temp at floor level (15% ~13% open area sheilded ) measurement point rear far corner from 30 sq cm open angled tunnel entrance: 18C
note: 18C floor is within 1 or 2 degrees of where it has been since september when they went in and entrance was opened wide
Did someone say bees dont regulate hive temperature?
Do you think the bees are carefully regulating temperature to hold the floor at 18? No, that is just a byproduct of the hive geometry, the rate at which they generate heat for other purposes, the size and position of the opening to the outside, etc. Are they carefully regulating the roof level at 41? No, that is higher than brood temperature so it must be an accidental result of the heat that is generated below, the insulation at the top, the amount of air circulation, etc. I think the bees regulate cluster temperature and brood temperature. The other temperatures around the box are less important and I don't think they are actively regulated.
Are your bees in cluster when it is 0 degrees outside? Once the forage season is over, wouldn't your bees use less food if they were in cluster? Does that mean that your insulated hive is making the bees consume more food? These are the questions I am considering when I think about how much insulation to use, where that insulation should be placed, and whether I want an open SBB or a solid floor.
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But you always tell us that we are wrong because we don't do things your way.
.....why do you tell me I should use Langstroths?
oK. You just told that you do not want to sell honey. DON'T USE LANGSTROTH. You will get honey if you use them!
This year I had a hive on balance.. In 5 weeks it brought 280 lbs honey and draw 4 boxes foundations. Reason was that we had good weathers. I was just lucky. No skills.
During one week the hive brought 14 pounds per day. In one week it means almost 100 bounds. During that time it was queenless.
The hive had 8 boxes, 5 langstroths + 3 mediums. It was not my best hive.
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oK. You just told that you do not want to sell honey. DON'T USE LANGSTROTH. You will get honey if you use them!
If I want to get the kind of honey you get per hive, I would have to manage the honey section very carefully. I would have to remove frames of capped honey every week to make room for more. And even then I could not match you because we don't have the intense and extended main flow that you have.
My long hive is the equivalent of 3 Langstroth boxes. If I want to go bigger, I start a new long hive. So then I have the equivalent to your hive but with two separate queens and two separate brood nests and honey sections. Maybe then I could have a slight chance to match you. :-D
This year I had a hive on balance.. In 5 weeks it brought 280 lbs honey and draw 4 boxes foundations. Reason was that we had good weathers. I was just lucky. No skills.
During one week the hive brought 14 pounds per day. In one week it means almost 100 bounds. During that time it was queenless.
Finski that is amazing. You are the Man! It must be tremendous fun to see that much beautiful honey coming in. I don't think it's just luck. You obviously have the skills to make it work. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. :shock:
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Ok, what exactly is a Pu hive. What is it made of and where do you get them?
Alu foil coated polyurethane foam - much higher thermal performance than polystyrene 2" PU is the equilvaent of 3" polystryrene. I make my own from material bought from a builders merchant.
... I think the bees regulate cluster temperature and brood temperature. The other temperatures around the box are less important and I don't think they are actively regulated.
I have an open mind on this, remember I'm operating a hive unlike any other. So i'm switching on the behaviours used in thick walled tree cavities with a copious lining of rotted wood. and of course all of the cavitiy is potential brood not just a central zone. I'm not assuming that these behaviours are just part of a continuum from uninsulated shelters
Are your bees in cluster when it is 0 degrees outside? Once the forage season is over, wouldn't your bees use less food if they were in cluster? Does that mean that your insulated hive is making the bees consume more food?...
I doubt they will consume more food, but my hive is very different, the ratios of nurse bees to foragers is visibly different ... its so just diffferent, the bees seem so much more dynamic than the other hive I split them from.
They will do what they will do and I will observe, as I'm out on my own at 0.4K
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My long hive is the equivalent of 3 Langstroth boxes. If I want to go bigger, I start a new long hive.
you may make a long hive troica
(troica = Russian 3 horses pulling a carry)
what is the math of holy tree, troica, holy trinity, = two is too few and four is too much.
F
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I have an open mind on this, remember I'm operating a hive unlike any other. So i'm switching on the behaviours used in thick walled tree cavities with a copious lining of rotted wood. and of course all of the cavitiy is potential brood not just a central zone. I'm not assuming that these behaviours are just part of a continuum from uninsulated shelters
A couple of thoughts. Yes, bees need to be sheltered from wind and rain. But do they really benefit from thick walled, highly insulated spaces? Are there hollow trees with thin walls? Maybe the bees use thick walled hollow trees because that's all they have available.
I would not have said that all of the cavity is potential brood. Bees are very careful about concentrating the brood nest and not scattering it out over the available space. They have an interest in keeping brood at the proper temperature for development and that is done more efficiently when it is close together. Temperatures away from cluster and brood are not temperature-critical. And I can't see them expending energy to heat a space they aren't actively using. But I understand that you are not making assumptions and just want to observe what is really happening.... whatever that may be.
Are your bees in cluster when it is 0 degrees outside? Once the forage season is over, wouldn't your bees use less food if they were in cluster? Does that mean that your insulated hive is making the bees consume more food?...
I doubt they will consume more food, but my hive is very different, the ratios of nurse bees to foragers is visibly different ... its so just diffferent, the bees seem so much more dynamic than the other hive I split them from.
Have you described this in another thread? This is interesting. How has the ratio of nurse bees to foragers changed?
Do you know at what outdoor temp your bees go into cluster? I know that bees use less energy when they are in cluster, but maybe lots of insulation offsets that advantage over a long period of time.
They will do what they will do and I will observe, as I'm out on my own at 0.4K
Sorry, I must have missed this. What is .4K?
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I would not have said that all of the cavity is potential brood.
in poly hives of all types you get brood top to bottom all the way to outside walls
This is interesting. How has the ratio of nurse bees to foragers changed?
there's a not alot of bees in the hive for the area of brood
Sorry, I must have missed this. What is .4K?
0.4 watts per degree C. A standard hive is 6K thats a factor of 15 different.
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*0.4 watts per degree C. A standard hive is 6K thats a factor of 15 different.*
soo has this had any impact on the timing of the colonies evicting of the drones-
this might be a indicator of which response impulse is triggering the colonies wintering mode
whether in is internal or external of the colonies living environment ???RDY-B
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*0.4 watts per degree C. A standard hive is 6K thats a factor of 15 different.*
soo has this had any impact on the timing of the colonies evicting of the drones-
this might be a indicator of which response impulse is triggering the colonies wintering mode
whether in is internal or external of the colonies living environment ???RDY-B
Still have drones in the PU hive checking again tommorow
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Do you think the bees are carefully regulating temperature to hold the floor at 18?
just read some research on the temperature of swarms... apparently they hold their outside temp at .... 17C or just above...
J. exp. Biol. (1981), 9*. 25-55 25 THE MECHANISMS AND ENERGETICS OF HONEYBEE SWARM TEMPERATURE REGULATION BY BERND HEINRICH
So Bees have a documented behavoir of holding peripheral areas at this particular temperature... Finski said if you electrical heat above 17C it can induce fanning.. curiouser and curiouser
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I have read too about the swarm temperatures.
When the swarm is going to continue its journey, it rises its temperature to 35C which is the rapid fly temperature of muscles. It has been measured with color temperature method. The rise of heat happens quickly in 15 minutes.
That is why old farts use to spray water onto swarm.
The muscle heat of the queen, which landed onto swarm, was 42C.
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So Bees have a documented behavoir of holding peripheral areas at this particular temperature... Finski said if you electrical heat above 17C it can induce fanning.. curiouser and curiouser
Hmmm. Interesting. Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster? If so, Finski's observation could explain it. If the temp around the cluster gets above 17 the bees begin to fan and that pushes heat out of the hive until it's back to 17. The cluster might not be regulating the floor temperature but rather the exterior of the cluster. But it amounts to the same thing.
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Hmmm. Interesting. Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster? If so, Finski's observation could explain it. .
of course not. Winter cluster things are known well. 17C is nothing winter cluster temp.
And it is not swarming temp either.
Look 353.full.pdf
the surface layer is about 12C and the core 30C.
Flying muscles and abdomen has clearly dirrerent temperatus.
.actually the cluster is as slices between combs.
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Hmmm. Interesting. Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?
No it just that there is switch in behaviour around this temp in other circumstances, 18c may just be a good holding temp to jump to activity or brooding. Holding at 18c is just not thermally possible for bees for any length of time (weeks months) in a conventional wooden hive, it gets too cold or too hot too fast (6k). It takes 54 watts in wood at 0c ambient to hold 18C but only 7.2W in a PU hive. Bees have an average winter heating budget of around 20W. With 20W they could heat the entire PU hive to 34C at ambient of -16C.
Thats what they could do, but what will they do? Thats what we are finding out.
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:?
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:?
same here or worse :? :? :? :?
No sence in those calculations.
"Bees have average heating budget" - I have never met.... Oh boy..... What is average hive or average food store....average beekeeper. Comment: But not suits here.....
This discussion is on average out of normal. Nonsence budget ? Any left?
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Since this thread seems to be working towards theoretical math I have an additional question/complication:
Does anyone know the heat capacity of honey? How much energy does it take to raise a gram of honey 1 degree?
I assume the bees must heat the honey to consume it as the cluster moves through their stores...right? What temp do they need for that?
A side benifit of insulation (in the far north) may be that the bees don't have to take the honey from -10F or possibly colder but rather something substantially warmer? I understand they do this in small steps, but the overall energy consumption would still be the same.
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:?
same here or worse :? :? :? :?
No sence in those calculations.
"Bees have average heating budget" - I have never met.... Oh boy..... What is average hive or average food store....average beekeeper. Comment: But not suits here.....
This discussion is on average out of normal. Nonsence budget ? Any left?
Any scientific discussion has to start with some figures, sorry I dont have the Standard deviation to quote per month. 12Kg of stores consumed over 150 days gives around 20W.... if its 12kg +/- 4kg that means 20w +/- 5W. if its 12Kg -4 + 12 then its 20W -5W +20w. But I dont have the weight variation per month, perhaps you have the figures?... The 12kg is a figure which I've taken as realistic consumption from some scientific papers... do you wish me to cite them ?
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The winter cluster is a sandwhich. It has layers of bees and food combs.
The temperature of food is same as bees.
Why we should know those things what you are asking. My hives are under snow and I do not touch the hive for 6 months. They take care themselves as long as there exist food.
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The winter cluster is a sandwhich. It has layers of bees and food combs.
The temperature of food is same as bees.
Why we should know those things what you are asking. My hives are under snow and I do not touch the hive for 6 months. They take care themselves as long as there exist food.
Finski ,
Why should you know anything that comes from anywhere apart from Mr Finski?
if you think its irrelavent to you, show your disdain by refraining to comment.
your comments indicate that you have no wish to listen to information that does not coincide exactly with your pattern of beekeeping.
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Honey has energy content of 1272kJ per 100 grams (per Wikipedia)
12kg x 1272kJ/100g = 152640kJ total energy released when 12kg of honey is consumed.
1 watt = 1joule/sec
150 days = 12960000 seconds
12kg honey consumed over 150 days generates on average 152640000J/12960000s = 11.7 watts
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A side benifit of insulation (in the far north) may be that the bees don't have to take the honey from -10F or possibly colder but rather something substantially warmer?
Good point Windfall!
In other words, do you like your steak frozen or medium rare :-D
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Honey has energy content of 1272kJ per 100 grams (per Wikipedia)
12kg x 1272kJ/100g = 152640kJ total energy released when 12kg of honey is consumed.
1 watt = 1joule/sec
150 days = 12960000 seconds
12kg honey consumed over 150 days generates on average 152640000J/12960000s = 11.7 watts
HARD DATA :lol: --now we need to know how many bees did the consuming to produce 11.7 watts??? RDY-B
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Honey has energy content of 1272kJ per 100 grams (per Wikipedia)
12kg x 1272kJ/100g = 152640kJ total energy released when 12kg of honey is consumed.
1 watt = 1joule/sec
150 days = 12960000 seconds
12kg honey consumed over 150 days generates on average 152640000J/12960000s = 11.7 watts
I was using 12.5KG sucrose It comes to 17W which is "around 20w".
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Finski ,
Why should you know anything that comes from anywhere apart from Mr Finski?
if you think its irrelavent to you, show your disdain by refraining to comment.
your comments indicate that you have no wish to listen to information that does not coincide exactly with your pattern of beekeeping.
hah hah Mr 2 hive owner.
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Finski ,
Why should you know anything that comes from anywhere apart from Mr Finski?
if you think its irrelavent to you, show your disdain by refraining to comment.
your comments indicate that you have no wish to listen to information that does not coincide exactly with your pattern of beekeeping.
hah hah Mr 2 hive owner.
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you are quite right it takes a lot of hives and years of practice to get stuck in a rut so that you can ignore high school level physics. why not try a reasoned argument rather than "im finnish and have been doing this for years", because I can counter that with "i've have new ideas and Im willing to to work things out and experiment, and I'm British and we created most of modern science. Dont try to out chauvinist us"
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I have studied 5 year biology in university.
The British physics.... I have learner from British forum, how to make syrup with old loundry machine. Nothing else.
I do not kow where you need you need your calculations.
what was the problem? I do not know.
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This thread is getting stupid PLEASE NOTE I am NOT calling ANYONE stupid. Just that this thread is going no where. Why don't you PM each other instead of having a battle on the forum?
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Hmmm. Interesting. Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?
No it just that there is switch in behaviour around this temp in other circumstances, 18c may just be a good holding temp to jump to activity or brooding. Holding at 18c is just not thermally possible for bees for any length of time (weeks months) in a conventional wooden hive, it gets too cold or too hot too fast (6k). It takes 54 watts in wood at 0c ambient to hold 18C but only 7.2W in a PU hive. Bees have an average winter heating budget of around 20W. With 20W they could heat the entire PU hive to 34C at ambient of -16C.
Thats what they could do, but what will they do? Thats what we are finding out.
I am wondering about the sizes of the bee population--it must be relivant to all the calculatios ??
8-) RDY-B
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Finally some rational thought. I agree w/ LoriMNnice. This thread has become more rhetorical (and mean spirited) than theoretical. I've learned very little from the last 4-5 pages.
Why don't you guys just take it outside and settle it like High-schoolers :-D
thomas
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I just calculated that if in Britain 10% are fool or propel heads, they are more than Finnish people together included emmigrants. :shock:
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(guess I should'a said middle-schoolers?)
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Finally some rational thought. I agree w/ LoriMNnice. This thread has become more rhetorical (and mean spirited) than theoretical. I've learned very little from the last 4-5 pages.
Why don't you guys just take it outside and settle it like High-schoolers :-D
thomas
Yes, as the thread starter, you sure took away the value to me of this thread with all the...whatever you want to call it....Thanks TBeek.
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JACKM--are you having problems wintering your bees in WA without
extra insulation--i would like to hear more about WA-Is it really that
cold or is it just wet-remember the bees inside the tree--inless that tree is dead
dormant it is absorbing(and utilizing)
extra moisture that is a byproduct of the bees--we have run the topic
of insulation past its value at this point--but what else is going on--?? RDY-B
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Hmmm. Interesting. Is a swarm the same as a winter cluster?
No it just that there is switch in behaviour around this temp in other circumstances, 18c may just be a good holding temp to jump to activity or brooding. Holding at 18c is just not thermally possible for bees for any length of time (weeks months) in a conventional wooden hive, it gets too cold or too hot too fast (6k). It takes 54 watts in wood at 0c ambient to hold 18C but only 7.2W in a PU hive. Bees have an average winter heating budget of around 20W. With 20W they could heat the entire PU hive to 34C at ambient of -16C.
Thats what they could do, but what will they do? Thats what we are finding out.
I am wondering about the sizes of the bee population--it must be relivant to all the calculatios ??
8-) RDY-B
Definitely it has a bearing on how much sugar/honey they eat and the heat released- and so doses the size of the hive box. If you have a bigger box with more bees but with the same number of bees per unit volume it has more heat, and more heat losses but they are outweighed by the heat gain. I took as my baseline the volume a british national hive and the often reported consumption of 12.5Kg of sugar over 150 days. This gave 17W, uprate it to a langstroth and you get 20W. 70lbs of honey per winter is more like 30w. The variation is considerable but it gives us an order of magnitude to understand the system. We can then understand that those 70lbs of honey in one type of hive cannot enable the bees to warm anything but the cluster but in another type can heat the entire hive to a significant degree.
The thermodynamics are straightforward, how the bees behave to benefit or lose is another matter.
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When beeks start talking about wintering, you have to expect a heated discussion. Happens every time.
Maybe I shouldn’t ask :-D….but do trees absorb much water in the winter? In the summer, water is transported up through the living tissues (just under the bark) and sugars are transported down. Water is transported up to support leaf growth and for cooling the tree in the summer.
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When beeks start talking about wintering, you have to expect a heated discussion. Happens every time.
Maybe I shouldn’t ask :-D….but do trees absorb much water in the winter? In the summer, water is transported up through the living tissues (just under the bark) and sugars are transported down. Water is transported up to support leaf growth and for cooling the tree in the summer.
lots of trees in my area keep there leaves -like the california oak--but the tan oak loses them
hard to put a discussion like this in a one size fits all--RDY-B
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*We can then understand that those 70lbs of honey in one type of hive cannot enable the bees to warm anything but the cluster but in another type can heat the entire hive to a significant degree.
The thermodynamics are straightforward, how the bees behave to benefit or lose is another matter.*
seams to me what gets warmed is the air in the top of hive--RDY-B
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When beeks start talking about wintering, you have to expect a heated discussion. Happens every time.
Maybe I shouldn’t ask :-D….but do trees absorb much water in the winter? In the summer, water is transported up through the living tissues (just under the bark) and sugars are transported down. Water is transported up to support leaf growth and for cooling the tree in the summer.
The rotted wood inside a tree cavity seems very absorbent to me maybe the bees are with their heat and moisture increasing the hollowing process?
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yea may be--but we dont know for sure the wood is rotten--do we??
maybe they have covered it up with propolis like bees often do--the tree
is a thing of its own and not the best example for understanding--RDY-B
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Yep!
Trees need water in winter.
Bees propolize every surface.
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yea may be--but we dont know for sure the wood is rotten--do we??
yes we do. How else a tree has a cavity if it is not rotten?
To old leave trees it is normal that the core is dead and rotten and the trunk has a living cylinder which grows as fast as inner material rottens.
There are hard rotten wood too but then no cavity. It depends what mushroom eates the trunk.
Bees carry out soft rotten wood fibres. So they tend to do in human made hives.
The tree trunk is wet all the time. It has not "normal dry wood" insulation values.
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relay --if they clean out the pulp--the rot is gone-at any rate tree is a bad example
of what goes on in colony of bees-moving backwards to the days of GUM LOG HIVES
for infanet wisdome somehow over looked- :-D RDY-B
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JACKM--are you having problems wintering your bees in WA without
extra insulation--i would like to hear more about WA-Is it really that
cold or is it just wet-remember the bees inside the tree--inless that tree is dead
dormant it is absorbing(and utilizing)
extra moisture that is a byproduct of the bees--we have run the topic
of insulation past its value at this point--but what else is going on--?? RDY-B
Don't have bees yet, trying to learn. Very wet climate winter lows might get down to upper 20's and sometimes a teens night if it is clear. Sometimes some freezing rain, rarely snow. Rain. Feet of rain.
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We had our first bit of freezing rain just last night (do I hear a celebration?), betcha my bees are in cluster now and finally slowing down, after three weeks of wandering about without anything to forage besides the buckets of syrup I provided.
(some trees, like some people, can be both rotten and still alive ;)
thomas
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(some trees, like some people, can be both rotten and still alive ;)
thomas
important is that twig is hard
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Now that's funny Finski, actually LOL!!
thomas
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As a logger (veneer and pulp) many years ago I cut down a hollowed out tree now and then. What couldn't be used for veneer went into the woodstove.
Most 'tree' cutting was done in mid-winter (less destruction to the ecosystem I was led to believe) and piled on landings for pick up throughout the year (as prices fluctuated) primarily because "trees had less moisture" during winter, reducing hauling expenses.
A standing tree in winter (rotten or live) will generally be dryer than the same tree in spring (sap run) or summer (nutrients to leaves and/or more absorbent) making for 'lighter' loads for same volume when compared w/ summer cut wood. Just my own personal observation.
thomas
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from Seeley and Morse 1976: "The wails of nest cavities were always solid (see 1. Nest "Site, Tree condition) and coated with [waterproof] propolis on their inner surfaces. Figure 7 shows a small area of this propolis coating. In finished nests the propolis layer was thick and completely covered a nest cavity's floor, walls and ceiling to form the propolis envelope drawn in figure 3. The thickness of this layer varied between 0.1 and 2.3 ram, but was generally in the 0.3 to 0.5 mm range. We dissected several unfinished nests and thus observed the intermediate stages in the preparation of nest cavity wails. When combs only partially filled a cavity, the nest cavity's inner surface was solid and smooth with propolis only around the combs. Lower in the cavity, below the level of the combs, a layer of soft, rotten wood coated the cavity walls. This punkwood lining was up to 20 mm thick. Apparently, before bees build combs they scrape the loose, rotten wood off the walls, thereby exposing firm wood which they then coat with propolis."
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As a logger (veneer and pulp) many years ago I cut down a hollowed out tree now and then. What couldn't be used for veneer went into the wood-stove.
Most 'tree' cutting was done in mid-winter (less destruction to the ecosystem I was led to believe) and piled on landings for pick up throughout the year (as prices fluctuated) primarily because "trees had less moisture" during winter, reducing hauling expenses.
A standing tree in winter (rotten or live) will generally be dryer than the same tree in spring (sap run) or summer (nutrients to leaves and/or more absorbent) making for 'lighter' loads for same volume when compared w/ summer cut wood. Just my own personal observation.
thomas
the tree weighs* less* in the winter--because its* DRYER* ok sounds good- :) now that we have established this how can we incorporate it into beekeeping benefit--sounds like we are advancing into the category of venting through osmosis--say did the part of the tree that contained the bee cavity weigh the same as the rest of the tree or did that part weigh more--??? RDY-B