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Author Topic: Growing a colony with foundationless frames  (Read 4347 times)

Offline chux

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Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« on: November 10, 2015, 11:04:22 am »
I know some of you good folks use foundationless frames, as I am. Question for you: How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?

Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top. I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box. I removed the box on some of the hives, and supered with a medium. Others I left in place. Eventually, a couple of the hives did build out the bottom box.

Some might ask why I didn't put the empty box between the medium and deep. Well, I didn't want to break up the brood chamber too early, or separate the brood from honey stores. Others may ask, why didn't I just throw the empty box on top of the hive. Well, I feared that the bees would go up there and draw out a deep box full of honey and drone cells. If they did that, what would happen when I lowered it to be a brood chamber? Tons of drones? Am I wrong?

How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you? 

Online cao

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 04:13:50 pm »
If you want to expand the brood chamber, the best way I have found is to insert a couple of empty frames in the middle.  In your case, you could remove the outside two or three frames and put them in the bottom box.  Insert the empty frames in the middle of your second box separated by drawn frames.  As long as there is a flow going on they will draw out those empty frames in short order.  In a week or two you can repeat the process.  Eventually, you will have both boxes fully drawn out.  This works very well getting the bees to draw out straight foundationless frames.  This is because they have a guide on both sides and bee space is more important in the brood chamber. 

Offline Maggiesdad

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 07:05:32 pm »
And empty deep is a lot of space...If you want them to draw it needs to be full of bees.

Consider a having long hive to keep opening up your broodnest, adding one and two frames at a time. Then pull your resources out as you need them.

Offline Wombat2

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 07:56:54 pm »
I am looking at going foundationless ( making up 100 frames with foundation is getting to me after the first 30!) My question is - if you put empty frames in the brood box do they draw the right size cells? I have noticed that in the honey supers damaged or empty frames get drawn out as drone cells - does that happen in the brood chamber as well?
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Offline chux

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 08:45:27 pm »
I really appreciate the feedback. Good to hear what is working for you folks.

Wombat2, when I start a swarm or cutout in a single deep, they build what they want. Plenty of brood cells. As I give more room above, they tend to draw larger cells for honey and drones.

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 11:53:58 pm »
My question is - if you put empty frames in the brood box do they draw the right size cells?
To the bees, every cell that they draw is the right size.   :wink:  The bees like a certain amount of drone cells.  If you have a hive with all foundation, they will either make drone cells between boxes or rework the foundation to drone size(typically around the edges).  If you drop a foundationless frame in the brood nest, they will often draw the first one almost completely drone cells.  After they have enough drone cells the rest will be worker cells.  I just move the one with drone cells to the outside edge of the brood nest and leave it there.  When they are done raising drones they will fill it with honey.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 12:48:10 am »
Quote
Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box. I removed the box on some of the hives, and supered with a medium. Others I left in place. Eventually, a couple of the hives did build out the bottom box.

They build what they need.  If you didn't have a good flow or they were not raising enough brood, they would not expand.  It's a tricky thing to judge when they are ready for more room.  It comes with experience and learning the forage of your area....and even then you can get it wrong.  ;-)
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 09:50:07 am »
>How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?

Not much you can do that doesn't interfere with the natural timing of things.  In the middle of the spring buildup moving into swarm season I would put empty frames in the brood nest from time to time.  These will be drawn nice and straight if the combs they are between are nice and straight.

>Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top.

What you want and what the bees want are not always the same thing...

>I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box.

They build comb when they have nectar coming in and no where to store it.  Otherwise they do not build comb.

>How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?

I don't worry about it.  It's not my job to make them do anything...
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 10:17:12 am »
Some really good advice posted above.
   As stated, if they dont think they need it they wont draw it. Cao is right though, rotating in some empty frames in their brood chamber will make them "want" to get it drawn...   Depending on your flow you may want to feed that hive or hives that you want drawing comb.  Feed slow, meaning three holes in a jar lid so they get syrup, but they dont get it FAST enough to backfilll the brood chamber.
   Adding a frame ith foundation into he middle of the brood chamber is bad, dont do it, it can be seen as a barrier rather than an opportunity.. an empty frame for foundation-less isnt a barrier to them.
   I have never had to place the empty box on the bottom to get it drawn, perhaps the small upper entrances I use makes a difference?
 
My question is - if you put empty frames in the brood box do they draw the right size cells?
To the bees, every cell that they draw is the right size.    The bees like a certain amount of drone cells.  If you have a hive with all foundation, they will either make drone cells between boxes or rework the foundation to drone size(typically around the edges).  If you drop a foundationless frame in the brood nest, they will often draw the first one almost completely drone cells.  After they have enough drone cells the rest will be worker cells.  I just move the one with drone cells to the outside edge of the brood nest and leave it there.  When they are done raising drones they will fill it with honey.

   Excellent explanation.  Each hive is different. I have some that like two sides worth of drone cells, and I have some that like three full frames of drone cells. I have had hives in the past draw drone comb OVER plasticell...  At which point i just stopped worrying about what "THEY" wanted and lt them have at it. 
   The age of the hive and their status will also determine if they make drone cells...  If you keep nucs and use them for resources to strengthen your other hives, they will usually make VERY nice worker comb. Newly established hives will make mostly worker comb until they feel they are at a point of "contentment" with their numbers and resources, then they will start the drone comb.
   The only real difficulty with using foundation-less is if you start from scratch, and have no drawn comb to rotate. Given the box of foundation-less frames, they can draw comb across the frames from corner to corner, so dropping in about three pieces of foundation spaced among the empty frames will help guide them. It will also help limit any cross comb to two or three frames, making it easier to fix or remove.
   Let us know how it goes!
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Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 09:20:36 pm »
I have not  read all the  responses yet so forgive me if someone said this already but I think the issue is answered in the question itself.  Bees do what bees do.  It is not like training a dog. If the goal is brood nest expansion then help the bees do it their way. I never add a box and expect them to use it as a brood nest.  If I want to expand the brood nest with another box I alternate empty frames with full frames in the 2 boxes.
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Offline chux

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 09:58:08 am »
I have not  read all the  responses yet so forgive me if someone said this already but I think the issue is answered in the question itself.  Bees do what bees do.  It is not like training a dog. If the goal is brood nest expansion then help the bees do it their way. I never add a box and expect them to use it as a brood nest.  If I want to expand the brood nest with another box I alternate empty frames with full frames in the 2 boxes.

Well I thought the most natural way, or "their way," to allow them to expand the brood nest was to put the empty frames underneath the current brood nest. I have done many cutouts. In those cutouts that are vertical, the bees always start building comb at the top and work their way down. They build new brood comb below. That's why I thought adding the space underneath was more natural.

And I did this in time to catch the spring nectar flow. The new swarms I was catching were busy building out comb in their boxes, while the 2nd year colonies filled the medium on top, and some of the frames in the deep.

Sounds like the best suggestion is to go in every couple of weeks and add a couple of empty frames in the brood area. Time intensive. Guess I'll just have to do it next season. Thanks again for all the replies.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 01:14:37 pm »
You are right, in nature they "usually" build from the top down. They do not like having empty space above the brood chamber. They tend to fill this area up to ensure they have food above them to move up into during the winter. If you watch the progression of a natural hive, they build down and move the brood chamber down into the lower section as they build. We tend to want clean comb so we add space above the brood nest in the hopes they do not move up into the honey super.
Jim
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Offline Rurification

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 02:15:20 pm »
Chux - great initial question.   I'd been wondering about that, too.   The discussion has been really interesting.

Jim- thanks for that explanation of why we put supers on top for the bees [as opposed to what is easier for us].   That makes perfect sense now.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2015, 04:41:30 pm »
Your welcome.
Jim
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Offline OldMech

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2015, 07:40:26 pm »
You are right, in nature they "usually" build from the top down. They do not like having empty space above the brood chamber. They tend to fill this area up to ensure they have food above them to move up into during the winter. If you watch the progression of a natural hive, they build down and move the brood chamber down into the lower section as they build. We tend to want clean comb so we add space above the brood nest in the hopes they do not move up into the honey super.
Jim

   Well said.
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Offline little john

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2015, 06:11:48 am »
You are right, in nature they "usually" build from the top down.

Perhaps another aspect worth mentioning is that in nature bees build continuous comb from the top of their cavity to just above wherever they judge the bottom of that cavity to be.

But when foundationless frames are being used the situation is somewhat different. Bees will usually draw a comb to within a beespace of the bottom bar (if one is in place) and then stop. Sometimes they will make attachments to that bottom bar, but not often.

So - there then remains a beespace, then the bottom bar, then another beespace, and then the depth of the top bar of the frame below that. All of these distances combine to create a barrier which the bees will certainly cross in order to build comb within the lower frame, but they will need far more of an incentive to do so, than if this barrier did not exist. Queens in particular do not like crossing (what seems to them to be) large comb-free distances.
 
This dislike can be used to create queen excluders, and was a method employed before relatively modern metal or plastic queen excluders became fashionable, and is still a method used for queen exclusion in the Bienenkiste hive design.

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Offline chux

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2015, 08:50:54 am »
Little john, I have not even considered this. Most of my frames do have this gap on the bottom of the comb. I suppose this does form a type of barrier in the "bee brain." I'll keep this in mind. Thanks.

Offline OldMech

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2015, 11:47:37 pm »
Every couple of weeks rotate your frames over one space when the bees are in the building mood. The middle, or primary frames are much more likely to be connected to the bottom of the frame.   Pull the left side frame, move all frames over one space and put theleft frame in on the right side. It happens slowly enough that the brood has emerged and the brood area shifts over one frame...  stop by late summer so they can put reserves along the sides.
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Offline Old Blue

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2015, 02:01:54 am »
>How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?

Not much you can do that doesn't interfere with the natural timing of things.  In the middle of the spring buildup moving into swarm season I would put empty frames in the brood nest from time to time.  These will be drawn nice and straight if the combs they are between are nice and straight.

>Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top.

What you want and what the bees want are not always the same thing...

>I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box.

They build comb when they have nectar coming in and no where to store it.  Otherwise they do not build comb.

>How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?

I don't worry aboutnot my job to makthem  it.  It's do anythinge ...

After 3-5 years you will appreciate the wisdom of these words.  Until then, continue to direct the bees to carry out your instructions  :grin:

Offline Eric Bosworth

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Re: Growing a colony with foundationless frames
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2015, 12:19:22 pm »
>How do you help them build the brood chamber in the second year?

Not much you can do that doesn't interfere with the natural timing of things.  In the middle of the spring buildup moving into swarm season I would put empty frames in the brood nest from time to time.  These will be drawn nice and straight if the combs they are between are nice and straight.

>Last season I had several first-year hives that wintered with a deep on the bottom, and a honey super on top. Going into spring, I wanted them to draw out another deep for brood, to become a double-deep with medium supers on top.

What you want and what the bees want are not always the same thing...

>I tried putting an empty deep on the bottom of the hive, and taking down a frame of honey/pollen. After the flow started, I waited for a few weeks to check them. I put nothing on top, because I wanted them to fill and work their way down, drawing comb below. This is what they do in nature. Well, when I went in after a few weeks, most of the hives had robbed the stores out of the bottom frame, and had not built anything, or very little in the bottom box.

They build comb when they have nectar coming in and no where to store it.  Otherwise they do not build comb.

>How do you get them to expand the brood chamber in a foundationless setup? What works for you?

I don't worry aboutnot my job to makthem  it.  It's do anythinge ...

After 3-5 years you will appreciate the wisdom of these words.  Until then, continue to direct the bees to carry out your instructions  :grin:
Yeah. .. well said. .. like I said it's not like training a dog.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin