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Author Topic: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?  (Read 9442 times)

Offline Javin

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From another thread:

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I has been documented in professional beekeepers test. It took 3 years.

idea was to find out, how much the colony makes honey when it has
1# drawn  combs
2# foundations
3# trips of wax

Colonies were bee packages.
It is somewhere in internet. I have linked it here few times.

I've been digging around for some time now, and I'm trying to find the same study. 

Does anyone have a link to a real study that was done to prove this? Searches on the internet result in a bunch of people saying anything from a 6:1 ratio to a 10:1 ratio, but I have yet to find a single study done on it.  And it sounds like the study mentioned could have a LOT of confounding variables.  As mentioned in the thread this quote came from, if the slowdown is the lack of a place to PUT the honey, and not the amount of honey consumed, then that's a massive difference.

The only way to come close to a proper result would actually be to test established hives.  Not packages.  You would have to find two very large groups of hives that were virtually identical, that were already established.  Weigh and measure every single frame of the hives to find out exactly how much honey they currently contain. Add a hive body to the control group with drawn comb, and frames without drawn comb to the variable group.  After x amount of time, measure the delta of both the honey and the new wax between the two. 

Starting with package bees introduces entirely too many confounding variables.  Do packages (since the bees could be older) have fewer wax producers?  Without a place to put the honey, is honey collection slowed down?  Are packages slower to produce because other studies show that they will build comb faster if the comb is oriented in the same direction as the hive they came from?  Etc. etc. etc.

Sounds like this may be one of those "facts" that's never actually been proven with a valid study.  Sure, it's a given that bees producing wax will use more honey, but but that ratio would make a massive difference in people's decisions on how to extract.  If the ratio's really as low as 2:1, then that would be roughly one pound of honey "lost" per medium hive body, or about 2%.  That'd be to say that crushing the comb would produce 98% as much honey as using an extractor, while producing significantly more wax.  It MAY actually be MORE cost effective if you sell wax!  But a ratio of 10:1 (as stated on Wiki) would be a 20% loss.  In this case, it would not be cost effective to crush.

Anyone have a good study on this?

Offline Michael Bush

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There are two studies that I have been able to find that are specific about the proportion of conversion.  The first was by Huber in Volume II, Chapter II of his "New Observations Upon Bees".

"Amounts of wax produced from various sugars
"A pound (453 grams) of white sugar, reduced to syrup, and clarified with the white of an egg, produced 10 gros 52 grains (1.5 ounces or 42 grams) of beeswax darker than that which bees extract from honey.  An equal weight of dark brown sugar yielded 22 gros (3 ounces or 84 grams) of very white wax; a similar amount was obtained from maple sugar.
We repeated these experiments seven times in succession, with the same bees and we always obtained wax in nearly the same proportions as above.  It therefore appears demonstrated that sugar and the saccharine part of honey enable the bees that feed upon it to produce wax, a property entirely denied to the fecundating dust."--Francis Huber

http://www.bushfarms.com/xstar.htm#Huber

The next was by Whitcomb, referenced in "Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products by Coggshall and Morse (pg 35)

"Their degree of efficiency in wax production, that is how many pounds of honey or sugar syrup are required to produce one pound of wax, is not clear. It is difficult to demonstrate this experimentally because so many variables exist. The experiment most frequently cited is that by Whitcomb (1946). He fed four colonies a thin, dark, strong honey that he called unmarketable. The only fault that might be found with the test was that the bees had free flight, which was probably necessary so they could void fecal matter; it was stated that no honey flow was in progress. The production of a pound of beeswax required a mean of 8.4 pounds of honey (range 6.66 to 8.80). Whitcomb found a tendency for wax production to become more efficient as time progressed. This also emphasizes that a project intended to determine the ratio of sugar to wax, or one designed to produce wax from a cheap source of sugar, requires time for wax glands to develop and perhaps for bees to fall into the routine of both wax secretion and comb production."

Of the two Huber's was confined which insures there was no outside source of nectar.  But the conclusions of Whitcomb were that efficiency changes over time and other studies I've seen show that a young bee who becomes a wax worker at the appropriate age and who has done it while is more efficient than an older bee who has reverted to wax making or a younger one who hasn't gotten into the "swing of things".  So the actual number would be hard to come by.  I agree with Taylor who says:

"The opinion of experts once was that the production of beeswax in a colony required great quantities of nectar which, since it was turned into wax, would never be turned into honey. Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong."--Richard Taylor, The Comb Honey Book

The other reason it is not as relevant as people seem to think is the miniscule amount of wax it takes to hold a large amount of honey.  From Beeswax Production, Harvesting, Processing and Products, Coggshall and Morse pg 41

    "A pound (0.4536 kg.) of beeswax, when made into comb, will hold 22 pounds (10 kg.) of honey. In an unsupported comb the stress on the topmost cells is the greatest; a comb one foot (30 cm.) deep supports 1320 times its own weight in honey."

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax



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Offline tomofreno

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Even with foundation they still have to draw it out, supplying most of the wax in the fully drawn out comb, correct?  Then if 8 lb of honey is required to make 1 lb of comb, and the foundation decreases the required amount of wax by 30%, then 5.6 lb of honey is required to store 22 lb of honey in comb on drawn out on foundation.  

If two hives, one with foundation the other without, each have nectar available to make 30 lb of honey, and each lb of comb stores 22 lb of honey, the hive without foundation can produce 1 lb comb and store 22 lb of honey in it, the hive with foundation can produce 1.09 lb comb (requiring 5.6 x 1.09 = 6.1 lb honey to produce) and store 23.9 lb honey.    So the hive with foundation can store about
100*(23.9-22)/22 = 8.6% more honey.

That is, amount of stored honey = N/(1 + n/22), where N is lb of honey equivalent nectar available, and n is the lb of honey required to make 1 lb of comb.  For n = 8 you get 0.735 lb stored per lb available, for n = 5.6 lb you get 0.797 lb stored.

Offline Finski

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Even with foundation they still have to draw it out, supplying most of the wax in the fully drawn out

That sentence is an assumption. "MOST" word often used, may be what ever. Then you start to calculate with decimals.
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Offline Finski

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I have debetd with Michael many times about honey needed for comb building. Another thing is that Michael insist that bees make rone combs allways same amount, which is not true.

But if you want to make your own truth, perhaps it is more valuable that honey yield.

I have tough criterias, on which reseach I trust on. 90% of "facts" in internet is take from sleave.

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Our forum has collapsed for ever and lots of links are in that grave.

I got the link from Alberta Beekeeping sites.

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« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 12:43:40 am by Finski »
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Offline tomofreno

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Even with foundation they still have to draw it out, supplying most of the wax in the fully drawn out

That sentence is an assumption. "MOST" word often used, may be what ever. Then you start to calculate with decimals.
  You edited my question to make it a statement: "Even with foundation they still have to draw it out, supplying most of the wax in the fully drawn out comb, correct?" 

I can multiply each side of the equations by 1000 to get rid of the decimals if that will make you happy.  :-D Telling us you have debated this many times with Michael doesn’t add anything useful to the discussion.  Perhaps you have some data you can share?  I did find on pg 90 of Eva Crane’s Bees and Beekeeping, Science, Practice and World Resources: “…bees are adaptable enough to build comb on sheets of beeswax foundation, in which case they secret only about a third of the wax needed for the cell walls, taking the other two-thirds from the foundation.”  So my 30% guess would seem to be off.  Also, it seems comb is crushed and honey strained from TBHs (there I go with another assumption! Heavens!), whereas comb is reused many times in moveable frame hives.  There is a thread here where a person mentioned using the same combs for over 20 years, though I’ve also read you should replace about 2 combs per year per hive box to help prevent disease.  Depending on how long combs are reused, it seems moveable frame hives could require considerably less wax secretion than TBHs over years of use.

Offline Michael Bush

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tomofreno,

A lot of the things you are quoting need a context to be meaningful.  Discussing reusing brood comb and swapping out brood comb is an entirely different discussion from reusing and swapping out honey comb from the supers.  Diseases and chemicals are generally considered to be in the brood comb, not the honey comb.  The "2 combs per year per box" is the brood nest.

Many people crush and strain with a Langstroth.  I did for 26 years.  I don't really know what percent of Langstroth users actually shell out the cash for an extractor and how many are wise enough not to until they have enough hives to make it worth it. 

Some people extract from Top Bar Hives, but most crush and strain.

All of this discussion about the "cost of wax" assumes not only that it is expensive but that it is an undo burden on the bees.  But it is what they do.  It is likely good for them to do what they were designed to do...
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Offline AndrewT

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Another thing to consider is that the weight of foundation put into a hive does not exactly save the bees from having to produce an equal weight of wax to build comb.

Comb built on foundation has a considerably thicker middle layer from the foundation, that wouldn't be there otherwise.  That's why they sell the very thin foundation for cut comb, and even that foundation is discernible to comb honey connoisseurs.

The purpose of foundation has always been more as a guide for building straight comb than to save the bees from producing wax.
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Offline rdy-b

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**Sounds like this may be one of those "facts" that's never actually been proven with a valid study.  Sure, it's a given that bees producing wax will use more honey, but but that ratio would make a massive difference in people's decisions on how to extract.**

 Actually its not that they use more honey--wax secretion in general is stimulated by a nectar flow-weather its man made or by
 nature-nectar dosent have to be evaporated down to start the bees building wax -its the nectar coming in that is key to what wax is produced or what honey the bees will store-not only is the Cost of the wax a reflection of the nectar it takes to make it--BUT
 there is a TIME issue as-well- if your bees are building wax they are not bringing in resources to boost the economy of the hive-If you have drawn suppers of wax at the ready and place them on the hives they are eagerly filled-we have to remember that the nectar flow dosent last for ever-you have a small window to get the maximum surplus (or not) so any study that shows how much
honey or syrup it takes bees to make wax-isnt going to tell you how much honey you lost by taxing your bees with the chore of building wax-- 8-) RDY-B

Offline Finski

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You really think that to natural beekeeper the wax comes as a gift from heaven. It is really naive to think so.

When bees transfer syrup to combs, dry up it and cover with wax, process takes 24% from sugar.
How do you think that wax comes for free?

If we look larva in final stage and then we weigh emerged workers, pupa process has taken away 33% from larva's weight.


Adult people try to get such information which supports his recent attitude. That is normal human behavious and tells that you cannot win stupid person in debating.

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Offline Finski

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Re: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2012, 04:50:39 pm »
plaa plaa plaa ....frame hives could require considerably less wax secretion than TBHs over years of use.

I have read American researches. I have done none. I trust on American researches because you have big resources. But I do not trust on natural beekeepers' words  a bit.

I have university education of biological sciences. It is vain to try fool on me.

So simple.
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2012, 05:05:41 pm »
**Depending on how long combs are reused, it seems moveable frame hives could require considerably less wax secretion than TBHs over years of use.**

 Less wax more honey--more wax less honey :lol:  RDY-B

Offline Finski

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Re: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2012, 06:20:12 pm »
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last summer I was short of foundations, I cut them in two pieces and I thought that they will do the missing part of comb. OK, they did, but they did so much drone cells that this was the first and the last time to  let them make natural cells.

Next time I go to bank and loan money, but I do not let them to do combs according their own ideas.
It is a law in my bee yard. I do not listen bees. They listen me.
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Offline AndrewT

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Re: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2012, 09:30:07 pm »
The real question that I'd like to have answered is how many pounds does the average beekeeper sweat off to produce each pound of honey?
Give a man a fish and he will have dinner.  Teach a man to fish and he will be late for dinner.

Offline AllenF

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Re: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2012, 09:55:11 am »
Not that many pounds.   I let the bees do most of the work.   I just steal it from them.   And when I extract, I have the A/C blowing.    :-D

Offline Finski

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Re: Anyone know where the 8# of honey to make 1# of wax idea comes from?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2012, 03:18:05 pm »
The real question that I'd like to have answered is how many pounds does the average beekeeper sweat off to produce each pound of honey?

Sweat of office worker is the best medicine against cancer . When you happen to be beek and officewother and you sweat enough, you may sell your honey as cancer medicine.

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anything