Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: Robo on January 17, 2011, 09:22:21 am
-
Here is a video sent to me by new member humanbeeing (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?action=profile;u=12749). I don't know any of the details, but hopefully humanbeeing will field any questions members might have.
BEE BOX FINGER JOINTS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3QwytFlwRM#)
-
Good job
Wear Ear Protection :-D
-
What?
-
Impressive looking jig..Your saw sounds like it could stand a little more h/p though lol
-
What?
:lau:
-
I am very impressed with that. I am wondering what type of jig you make to make the handholds?
-
Fantastic work for a humanbeeing! I can’t wait to see the jig for the hand holds too.
I love your box jig, very nice. How many boxes are you building? What’s up with that last small tooth?
-
I don't do any special cuts for hand holds. I just use scrap, because I always have it, as cletes. I like them best anyway.
The last small tooth is because of the width of the board being cut. You could work it out so all the fingers are full size, but that doesn't take into account BEE SPACE. It's just the way 7 5/8 width works with the 3/4 finger joints. I also like the look of the 3/4 joints, but you could go up to 7/8 with the freud dado I have. My cabinet saw is 20 years old and she has been ridden hard for most of it. She's tired so I just took the motor off and I will take it in tomorrow to have it checked out. Also, I have 240 to my shop so I may just upgrade to that. You need a bigger saw with a long enough arbor to run a dado, as well as plenty of power.
In any event, I like the box joints for my bee boxes. I built some last year using rabbit joints, and some of them are pulling apart already. We had a really wet spring and I am sure that's what caused it. I want my epuipment to last. I've seen hive bodies that were 30 to 40 years old that were still in pretty good shape. That's what I'm trying to do, make epuipment that will out last me.
-
I like your video of you Warre hives. You should video more of your work. All good looking stuff there.
-
Humanbeeing, I like cleats too. I’ve been using them on my home built boxes too. I have to make a confession; I’ve using butt joints on the recent boxes I’ve built! I know how horrible butt joints are, but the twists in all the boards I buy were wreaking havoc when it came to my (weak) joinery skills. My boxes would not end up lying flat when assembled. Do you do anything special to accommodate the twists? It seems if you have a few degrees of twist in an end board that is 16” long, it will push your side boards up by 0.25”+ and you get a box that doesn’t sit flat. Your boxes look great, so obviously you’re doing something right.
-
Hey BlueBee,
When I go to the lumber yard, I don't let them pick my lumber, I pick it. I start digging in the rack and I eyeball down each and every piece. I check for crown, which is the amount of bow in the edges, and I check for twists and overall straightness. If they are not perfect, I refuse to pay the two and a half prices they are asking for them.
I always restack everything nicely. Regardless of your joinery technique, if your edges don't line up nicely, it won't work out. That takes near perfect lumber. Also, to join lumber, you need perfecly straight cuts.
Have you considered using dowels? Three or four 3/8th inch dowels, an inch to an inch and a quarter deep, spaced equally apart, and glued real well, then clamped tightly, would go a long way in making your butt joints stronger. Plus, they look nice. Coupled with some nice, straight lumber, you would have it "together." Just a thought.
-
Wow, quite the jig to make a bee box! If you don’t mind a suggestion I would recommend running a light pass with the router in the opposite direction first. Then do the finish pass in the direction shown. This will reduce the possibility of chipping out the routed ledge that the frames must sit on. *Note: hang on the router because in the reverse pass it will try to run away from you.
That takes near perfect lumber. Also, to join lumber, you need perfecly straight cuts.
Welllllll, in furniture making you need extremely sharp tools because many woods don’t have straight grains, like fruit woods. These types of wood have the greatest character in grain structure and are sought after because of it. Admittedly, they are the hardest to work with.
These are bee homes so I don’t think it takes furniture quality craftsmanship to build them a home. I am building boxes with used free lumber that I think anyone can do if they own a table saw using strictly butt joints. I made it more complicated than I needed to because I laminated ¼ ply to the ¾ stock both for extra joint strength and because I live in the North country. If you wanted to stay with ¾ stock you could double up the corners for about 1 ½ inch and then you can use 2x4 stock ripped to 1 ½ x 1 ½ corner posts to make the butt joints. I am painting the pieces now but I will have some pics shortly on what I did.
-
Acebird,
With my saw, upgraded to meet the demands of cutting with a wide dado, I should be able to come close to your time, cutting 2x4 stock ripped to 1 ½ x 1 ½ corner posts to make the butt joints, with minimal effort. Although, I think corner posts would look nice, I like the old school finger joints. That's the great thing about wood. There are a lot of really nice designs hiding in that slab. You just gotta dig it out.
-
I just watched your other videos (Warre' and the wagon wheel) . Very nice work your doing
-
I just watched your other videos (Warre' and the wagon wheel) . Very nice work your doing
Just watched and enjoyed them as well.
Just one comment on the Warre hive. If your using moveable frames, you are in direct contrast with one of Warre's key points. Not that there is anything wrong with doing it, in fact, I like seeing people experimenting on their own. But any failure or success you have with those hive shouldn't be directly contributed to Warre.
-
Acebird,
With my saw, upgraded to meet the demands of cutting with a wide dado, I should be able to come close to your time, cutting 2x4 stock ripped to 1 ½ x 1 ½ corner posts to make the butt joints, with minimal effort.
Time wise I think you are further ahead with the finger joint even if you don't have a fancy jig to do them. With my method you are painting all the end grains and corner blocks and predrilling all the corner blocks. Time was not my concern. I wanted to show that using scrap wood to cut cost and using butt joints makes it easy enough for any wood butcher to make a respectable hive (thinking along the lines of a hobbyist of course).
-
I think Humanbeeing's system is superior to mine (stronger and faster), but for those interested in homemade butt joints I’m going to try to attach a photo of mine to this post. I’m wondering if adding a 1/32nd of slop to humanbeeing's box joints might accommodate my twisted wood. Obviously I’m not a professional wood worker or I would already know how to deal with this twisted wood problem (other than the fire place).
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9536/dsc0237withnotations.th.jpg) (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/dsc0237withnotations.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
-
I don't know BlueBee, they are fine looking boxes. Don't worry about a little wobble, the weight of the box above will level it out, or the bees will propolize it. I know a lot of beekeepers that would love to have boxes that nice.....
-
That sure is a slick carridge Humanbeing has set up. indexing dial could be used for lot and lots of joinery applications.
Blue bee, I suspect Robo is right about a bit a wobble....but if you want to know....The only real way to deal with twisted lumber is to run it through a jointer and then replane it. If your running with dressed 3/4 stock your gonna end up too thin. need rough sawn for this treatment. You can also true a board by hand but it takes some time and skill. A truly twisted board is bad news, even if you joint it, it will likely twist up some more with seasonal movement and can generate some pretty serious stress (easily enough to pop glue) ...best not to bring it home in the first place. There are all sorts of reason for this but they get pretty technical.
Mild twist can be dealt with by setting up the twist to be opposite on opposing sides of the box...think mirror image, then clamping and glueing should equalize things.
adding slop to the joints will just make other problems and weaken/eliminate the bond for glue.
-
I just watched your other videos (Warre' and the wagon wheel) . Very nice work your doing
Just watched and enjoyed them as well.
Just one comment on the Warre hive. If your using moveable frames, you are in direct contrast with one of Warre's key points. Not that there is anything wrong with doing it, in fact, I like seeing people experimenting on their own. But any failure or success you have with those hive shouldn't be directly contributed to Warre.
Hey Robo,
Warre hives were just a passing experiment for me. I don't like them. I had 4 by the end of last year and I broke and tore more comb in just a few months, enough to turn me off of on them. I built full frames and they were a breeze to work. I won't have any Warre hives again but the boxes will make nice breeder nucs, and I have fully drawn comb for all of them. They are perfect to hide out in the mountains, up in trees, to get my virgin queens breeding with the ferel bees we have here.
-
BlueBee,
I agree with Robo, your boxes look really good. The way you explaned it, you could drive a bus through the gaps! Keep doing what your doing.
-
Honey super with big gaps=top entrance.
Scott
-
Obviously I’m not a professional wood worker or I would already know how to deal with this twisted wood problem
Nonsense bluebee, what you have done is perfectly adequate. The only suggestion I would make is to taper that top edge or the cleat so rain water will run off it instead of getting underneath the box wall on top. If you are worried about the box setting flat get a butt plane and dust off the high spots. The wood is like the bees it is better to let it do what it wants to do than try to force it to do something else. If it is warped, so what? The bees don't care.
If you want a simple solution just lay a bead of caulk on the top surface of the box, cover it with syran wrap or wax paper and then set the other box on top. Let it cure for a couple of days and then pull off the syran warp and clean off the over flow. Number the boxes to keep the order consistant and they will always be a perfect match. I always remember what my father used to tell me, "hey, your not building a church."
-
I had 4 by the end of last year and I broke and tore more comb in just a few months, enough to turn me off of on them.
How'd you manage that? You're not suppose to be going into them :-P
I keep one at the house just for fun and to see how long they can survive without any intervention. Going on 3 years now with only under supering.
I think trying to manage any quantity of them and harvest honey would be a hassle, but there are folks out there that swear by the TBHs. If everyone liked chocolate, they wouldn't make vanilla......
Glad you found a use for them.
-
And that's another thing Robo, in this day and age, you should be checking your bees. Mr. Warre lived in another time. I like the size of them. I have three Warre hives out back that seem to be wintering really well. By the same token, I have bees in Langs that are wintering very well also. 6 to one, half a dozen to another. I just know that I am going for 100 hives as a goal, and I can't see me doing that with Warre hives.
Besides the fact that I can't stay out of them every two weeks or so. That's asking too much! :)
-
And that's another thing Robo, in this day and age, you should be checking your bees. Mr. Warre lived in another time.
I'm not sure of that, sometimes I think we are doing more harm than good. I see a lot of feral colonies thriving with no intervention by man.
I just know that I am going for 100 hives as a goal, and I can't see me doing that with Warre hives.
I hear ya.
Besides the fact that I can't stay out of them every two weeks or so. That's asking too much! :)
Addicting isn't it :-D I'm sure when you got into beekeeping, a goal of 100 hives was not on your mind :shock:
Best of luck and hope you succeed.
-
Super clever jig for doing the joints! I can think of a couple other applications for that technology.
And i heartily approve of the t shirt!
-
So what happened to the video's ??